3.5 Marth Dicussion!

V

Smash Ace
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963
#41
I completely understand that but doing that against floaties can become tiresome. I end up resorting to utilt or surprisingly his tipper usmash which is fairly easy to land and very strong in PM.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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#43
The inability to kill floaties past x percent as Marth is overrated if Marth can continue to keep strong positional advantages. It's more of a handicap the less patient and less aware you are: the difference between killing someone at 80% and at 160% is close to nothing if they can't get inside and you safely smack them for % without taking much yourself.
 
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TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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#44
So what are people feeling are Marth's worst matchups in 3.5? I'm thinking about picking up a secondary to deal with Marth, my playstyle along with my Wolf just isn't able to cope with Marth unfortunately.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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#45
Lot of tough MU's have gotten easier in this patch, very hard to say. If you're good with Sheik, I'd probably recommend her.
 

Angell

Smash Cadet
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May 23, 2014
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#47
How do you counter Marth's fair? Because I got a pentafair to ken combo on my friend and he won't play me again unless I tell him how to stop it.
 
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#49
As a Link main, could I get some tippers (pun intended) on how to get better with Marth? I really like him and would like to have him be one of my main secondaries. I have a bit of experience with him so don't be afraid to get a little technical.
 

ObdurateMARio

Smash Apprentice
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#50
I used to main Link and moved to Marth about-8years ago, so my knowledge is WAY old school, and this was melee vs PM, but I think i can give some points here for ya.

The thing about Link back in the day, and I think still in PM is that every Link is pretty different. The projectiles link posses means there are a lot of ways to box other people out, and a lot of ways to approach your enemy. So it would be hard for me to coach you up specifically without knowing your specific playstyle, here are the generals.

1) The BIGGEST one is that Marth absolutely hates projectiles. As Link, when Fox or Falco laser spams, you get excited, because if you hit them with one arrow, it's like 10+ lasers in one hit. You have a huge advantage. As Marth, you either hide on a platform if you can, or you're forced to approach. What this affects in the technical sense is that Link has a huge area in which he is in control of the match, everywhere from the edge of his sword outward is the area that he can control. Marth, on the other hand, wants to control and be at tipper range all day. This is a HUGE change when playing somewhat campier characters who want to set up traps/projectiles. Zelda, for example, Link can play keep away with booms/arrows, whatever, until a clear opening. Marth, OTOH, has to keep his space between Zelda's areas of control. Coming from Link is one of the very few places where I would have to tell someone that your area of control is smaller, but Marth's is also quite large.

2) Marth's movement is VASTLY different than Link's. Wavelands, Wavedashes, DDs, etc are ALL things that you NEED to know how to use appropriately with Marth. Link, at least in Melee, I distinctly recall as being ridiculed for having a useless wavedash/land. Watch some top level Marths, and even some old school Ken play to get a feel for movement. Once you nail it, he is one of the most fluid characters in this game, and it helps him move the box of control around that we discussed in point 1 very easily.

3) The use of Link's Master Sword is a lot different than what you want to do with Marth's Falchion. A lot of people think all sword characters play pretty much the same in the sense that you want to space people out, and that you would do the same thing regardless of character. This is terribly misconceived. Marth's moveset leans a lot towards poking around the enemy, between dtilt, ftilt, side b, etc, whereas Link wants to smack you right in the face off a bomb confirm with dat sweet dash attack, etc. Marth can't set up with projectiles, so you're going to want to set up with all sorts of pokes and try to catch your enemy trying to rush in. Unfortunately, it's not '06 anymore, so if you fair people's shields on approach all day, you'll get grabbed every single time.

4) Speaking of approaches, your approach game is as mentioned totally different. Aside from your pokes, with Marth you want to control your space with nairs, fairs, etc. Just because the nair you just threw out missed doesn't mean it was useless, you controlled that area for a time with it. Aerial walls are one of Marth's biggest strengths, between hovering nairs, retreating double fairs, etc. These will stuff overly aggro opponents, and can lead to absolutely crushing punishes on poor DI.

5) GRABS. Congrats on the character swap, here's your grabs. Link's grabs aren't bad, but Marth's are AMAZING. I can't explain to you the full utility of such an awesome grab in a forum post but the big bits are that your grab outranges a LOT of characters melee attacks! See that Pika running at you to upsmash? Grab! See the fox who just missed that drillshine? GRAB'EM! Your grab range is godlike, and it leads to so much. Low % use fthrow-fsmash, with dthrow to fsmash as a mixup. Upthrow chaingrab on spacies is godlike. It's almost too easy once you've got it down to 0-death a spacie. Uthrows to 35%, uptilt to regrab upthrows, then leads to uair juggle, finish with tipper fmash. It's gross. Watch M2K to see it in action.

6) I know I don't have to explain spacing to a Link, but learn the spacing of Marth's sword. Understand tippers aren't necessarily always what you want. If you're comboing, go ahead and get weak hits, because the reduced knockback makes it way easier to combo at higher %.

Bonus: Learn how to hide your jump in recovery. Marth's recovery is all about the mixups. If you blow your jump and side bs, your opponent wil edgeguard you easy. Keep these things as long as possible to stall and mixup on your opponent, and your recovery ability will increase exponentially.
 
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Joined
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#51
For all intents and purposes Marth basically wasn't touched. 99% of Marth's grab usage isn't affected by the changes and the change to jab2 doesn't really do anything of consequence.


Your opinion is wrong.

Marth is generally held to beat Roy, but a long list of various attributes for each character doesn't really capture how or why.


His aerials are kill moves, what are you talking about?
Opinions can't be wrong lol. It's his and no one else's. You can disagree, but opinions are never wrong nor right. Only agreed with or disagreed with.
 
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#52
To reply to OP saying that Marth was nerfed.

Yes he was, but there's a fix to it. JC grabs. do them. You won't regret it. They're amazing. A good Marth will NEVER use dash grab ever and will instead ALWAYS opt to JC grab. To do so: input jump and 1-3 frames after, input Grab. The genius of this is that you can do this out of dashing and the result is a much less laggy standing grab animation that has twice as much range as his dash grab.
 
Joined
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#53
Opinions can't be wrong lol. It's his and no one else's. You can disagree, but opinions are never wrong nor right. Only agreed with or disagreed with.
Guess what? You're wrong.

If my opinion is that the Sun orbits the Earth, my opinion is demonstrably incorrect. If I think the sky is neon green, I'm wrong.

The idea that Roy lacks combos is... wait for it... wrong.

The idea that opinions can't be wrong is right up there with things like "there are no stupid questions".

A good Marth will NEVER use dash grab ever and will instead ALWAYS opt to JC grab
Dash grab reaches lower than his standing grab, so it's occasionally used to grab characters that could otherwise duck under a grab attempt.
 
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#54
Guess what? You're wrong.

If my opinion is that the Sun orbits the Earth, my opinion is demonstrably incorrect. If I think the sky is neon green, I'm wrong.

The idea that Roy lacks combos is... wait for it... wrong.

The idea that opinions can't be wrong is right up there with things like "there are no stupid questions".


Dash grab reaches lower than his standing grab, so it's occasionally used to grab characters that could otherwise duck under a grab attempt.
Opinions are just that. Opinions. They are how people view the world and that can never be wrong. If you opinion is that the Sun orbits the Earth, then i can't say that's wrong. The FACT is that the Earth rotates around the Sun is true, but if you believe it otherwise, then i can't say you are wrong to do so.

I suppose dash grab could be used for that, but ive yet to see it.
 

Preacher

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Connecticut
#59
Marth is somewhat easy to learn and I think 3.5 is a good way to learn marth besides melee
I think playing marth in PM has made me play better in melee. There's so many things I have had to do to not get destroyed by OP characters before this patch. It's made me think and be more aware of how to get around all the things that can stop marth. I no longer struggle with projectiles and my game has become extremely adaptive.

As for marth vs roy. If the marth player has better spacing than the roy player, he'll be able to stomp roy. If the roy player gets as many chances to punish the marth player then he will likely win because roy can really punish. Though the primary factors of which could beat which are how well each player can control positioning and how good their movement is.
 

Baeklays

Smash Cadet
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Florida | East Coast
#60
Roy in Melee was not so good, Roy in PM 3.5 was a lot better doing to his buff, and stuff.
But talking about Marth vs. Roy in 3.5, well Roy does not have Brawl/Smash 4 exclusive techniques available to him (DACUS, RAR, footstool, etc.)

Roy can still turn around his Side B and do other PM exclusive tricks, just not ATs not possible to do in Melee.

.Bonus Round (if he still sucks): Roy gets DACUS, Foostooling, and whatever Brawl/PM ATs he wants. Also he gets his pre-3.5 uair and dash grab back

I hear some folks on here talk about the Fox/Falco/Marth dominated future of Melee, and I just wonder sometimes how Roy would do if he actually coughs worked like he shoul.
 
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#61
I think playing marth in PM has made me play better in melee. There's so many things I have had to do to not get destroyed by OP characters before this patch. It's made me think and be more aware of how to get around all the things that can stop marth. I no longer struggle with projectiles and my game has become extremely adaptive.

As for marth vs roy. If the marth player has better spacing than the roy player, he'll be able to stomp roy. If the roy player gets as many chances to punish the marth player then he will likely win because roy can really punish. Though the primary factors of which could beat which are how well each player can control positioning and how good their movement is.
You have to take into account the two most important moves in the neutral are grab and d-tilt, and iirc the spacing is even here. Marth's fair helps him a lot as you can also use it in neutral, but what works for Roy is that both d-tilt and grab are combo starters and d-tilt isn't for Marth. I'd say the matchup is roughly even
 

Signia

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
1,157
#63
Roy lacks combo in my opinion.
Marth DTilt moves up downwards, and Roy's moves you upwards.
Lmao please stop posting
Opinions are just that. Opinions. They are how people view the world and that can never be wrong. If you opinion is that the Sun orbits the Earth, then i can't say that's wrong. The FACT is that the Earth rotates around the Sun is true, but if you believe it otherwise, then i can't say you are wrong to do so.
What are you talking about?

Sure, you can define "opinions" to be views of the world, but a view may still be inaccurate. "Opinions" are judgements or statements that may or may not be based on facts. And last I checked, "judgements" can be poor and statements can be incorrect. Similarly, so can opinions.

"The FACT is that the Earth rotates around the Sun is true, but if you believe it otherwise, then i can't say you are wrong to do so."

OF COURSE you can, lmao. Beliefs can be wrong, what's wrong with you?
 
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Quickbobhero
#64
After playing some PM today, and me being used to Smash 4 Marth, all I gotta say is this.

Marth is ridiculously fluid in Melee/PM oh my lord.
 
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nimigoha

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
877
#65
Roy in Melee was not so good, Roy in PM 3.5 was a lot better doing to his buff, and stuff.
But talking about Marth vs. Roy in 3.5, well Roy does not have Brawl/Smash 4 exclusive techniques available to him (DACUS, RAR, footstool, etc.)

Roy can still turn around his Side B and do other PM exclusive tricks, just not ATs not possible to do in Melee.

.Bonus Round (if he still sucks): Roy gets DACUS, Foostooling, and whatever Brawl/PM ATs he wants. Also he gets his pre-3.5 uair and dash grab back

I hear some folks on here talk about the Fox/Falco/Marth dominated future of Melee, and I just wonder sometimes how Roy would do if he actually coughs worked like he shoul.
Are you saying that Roy can't DACUS RAR or footstool?

Because he can. Every single character can RAR and footstool, and Roy fits the DACUS criteria.
 

Honor

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
165
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Alexandria, VA
#68
So I fired up M this week for the first time in about a year. I realized that I was still using 3.0. What are the biggest changes to Marth (if any) that I should be aware of? I'm going to update so I can practice for going to tourneys over the summer but I was wondering what I want to have in mind going into 3.5?
 
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#69
You can look at the patch notes, but Marth wasn't changed as much. The difference is that other characters were changed a lot so the matchups are still different.
 
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