20YY: The Falco Movement

[victinivcreate1]

I'm a doubter of 20YY. I do think that Falco can be modernized, but I don't think this is the way to go about it.

I'm pretty sure I've made more Falco discoveries on my own than 20YY has. Modernization of characters was never a group effort. Someone by themselves did the work and showed the world. Mew2King's Marth, Armada's Fox (Fox is a different story since Hax sorta started it all), Gravy for Falcon (20GX was a solo thing till Gravy told Wizzy and Gahtzu), DruggedFox for Sheik, etc.

Falco needs a solo lab monster. Ill do it.

That and I posted some of my ideas in the Falco discussion Skype group and I was disregarded.

 

[Noah5900]

I'm a doubter of 20YY. I do think that Falco can be modernized, but I don't think this is the way to go about it.

I'm pretty sure I've made more Falco discoveries on my own than 20YY has. Modernization of characters was never a group effort. Someone by themselves did the work and showed the world. Mew2King's Marth, Armada's Fox (Fox is a different story since Hax sorta started it all), Gravy for Falcon (20GX was a solo thing till Gravy told Wizzy and Gahtzu), DruggedFox for Sheik, etc.

Falco needs a solo lab monster. Ill do it.

That and I posted some of my ideas in the Falco discussion Skype group and I was disregarded.

i think we should just have a youtube channel for all the cool things we find out

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

i think we should just have a youtube channel for all the cool things we find out

We do, but we're basically going to do chapters. For example: 20YY: The Falco Movement, Chapter One: Movement.

 

[victinivcreate1]

We do, but we're basically going to do chapters. For example: 20YY: The Falco Movement, Chapter One: Movement.

I know its an example but movement is so general and a lot of the time you don't need to actually increase the technicality of that, its more of a MU specific thing.

Like what do you mean by movement? Like spatial awareness or like actual increasing the speed of how Falco moves across a stage. I do know Falco's fastest movement option, but I was just wondering what you were thinking.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I know its an example but movement is so general and a lot of the time you don't need to actually increase the technicality of that, its more of a MU specific thing.

Like what do you mean by movement? Like spatial awareness or like actual increasing the speed of how Falco moves across a stage. I do know Falco's fastest movement option, but I was just wondering what you were thinking.

It was just an example word, to show you guys what I was talking about, lol.

 

[TheCandyman]

WHOOPS I put this in a wrong place

 

[POTATOorGTFO]

Any idea for 20YY completion date, not anytime soon I'm guessing?

 

[FE_Hector]

Not anytime soon, for sure. It'll definitely take us a while. We've been keeping up a discussion for ideas and stuff like that, but not THAT much progress has been made in my opinion. It's also a relatively new movement, though.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Any idea for 20YY completion date, not anytime soon I'm guessing?

Our final goal, getting Falco to top tier will take a long time, but finding new things/improvements on things happens relatively often.

 

[FE_Hector]

SS Tier or bust.

 

[Spoice]

Gotta admit this idea is exciting, but I think we shouldn't even think about progressing Falco as much as we should think about making him more accessible to new players. A lot of new players will definitely try the spacies, and, in my opinion, Falco is much harder to learn at low level (fox is hard, but that's way up, by the time you are there with Falco, you should be a master really) I remember when I first picked up this game, determined to play Falco, as soon as I did, I found it so tedious and annoying to use him. Then I slowly learnt how to start pillaring, cool shine tricks like shine bair or shine dair, but in the first few weeks, or even months, of playing Falco, you've really gotta be patient. I think, if this movement is to be successful, we must find a way to introduce Falco to the typical smash player in a way that makes him look accessible. That's why I think characters like Sheik, Marth and Peach are pretty popular (fox is obviously popular due to number 1), because they are easy to play, it makes the player feel welcomed and not intimidated. It's clear there's a gap between the top 3 Falcos, but an even bigger one between the third best Falco, and someone like Zhu or Porkchops (maybe not as big as say Armada and MacD or Hbox and Soft, but still a noticeable gap). In this meta, it seems Falco gets ignored for these reasons:
1) not very accessible
2) much easier characters to learn
3) very complicated to play from low level
If 20YY can overcome these and make Falco an easy character to pick up, then this movement can go further than we all thought. For all we know, this very idea could introduce Falco to a Fox main who may become the world's next best Falco and win something major like EVO 2023.

Of course though, that is just my two cents.

 

[FE_Hector]

You've got a really good point there. I feel like having two different Gods attending a fair number of majors and both putting in some legitimate Falco work will help that, but at some point I think that we're gonna have to work on some comprehensive Falco guides in terms of techskill, mindset, movement, and combo game that is accessible and easy to understand for a lot of people. Something conceptually to Kadano's Perfect Marth Class, where he goes over some really basic tech that goes a really long way (ie JC Grabs) is probably like what we'd end up turning out. I feel as if YouTube guides are going to be easier because sometimes reading through walls of text (sometimes with typos) is actually a barrier for a lot of people who just want to watch and be told what to do instead of just being given lists of stuff.

For example, a video of somebody multishining and breaking it down frame-by-frame is a lot easier to understand than a table showing what exactly the frame perfect stuff looks like on smashboards. On top of that, I feel like it would be useful to mention that the multishine timing is ~ the same as the WD timing due to jumpsquat and all that fun stuff.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Gotta admit this idea is exciting, but I think we shouldn't even think about progressing Falco as much as we should think about making him more accessible to new players. A lot of new players will definitely try the spacies, and, in my opinion, Falco is much harder to learn at low level (fox is hard, but that's way up, by the time you are there with Falco, you should be a master really) I remember when I first picked up this game, determined to play Falco, as soon as I did, I found it so tedious and annoying to use him. Then I slowly learnt how to start pillaring, cool shine tricks like shine bair or shine dair, but in the first few weeks, or even months, of playing Falco, you've really gotta be patient. I think, if this movement is to be successful, we must find a way to introduce Falco to the typical smash player in a way that makes him look accessible. That's why I think characters like Sheik, Marth and Peach are pretty popular (fox is obviously popular due to number 1), because they are easy to play, it makes the player feel welcomed and not intimidated. It's clear there's a gap between the top 3 Falcos, but an even bigger one between the third best Falco, and someone like Zhu or Porkchops (maybe not as big as say Armada and MacD or Hbox and Soft, but still a noticeable gap). In this meta, it seems Falco gets ignored for these reasons:
1) not very accessible
2) much easier characters to learn
3) very complicated to play from low level
If 20YY can overcome these and make Falco an easy character to pick up, then this movement can go further than we all thought. For all we know, this very idea could introduce Falco to a Fox main who may become the world's next best Falco and win something major like EVO 2023.

Of course though, that is just my two cents.

I actually agree entirely. We need to find out how to make Falco an easy top tier character, which is definitely hard, but would be extremely worth it. I've got a plan, as soon as I get my new PC, I'll record and stream a bunch of videos from Falco basics, to Falco super advanced things.

 

[Mc.Rad]

The year is 20YY. Falco has reached a new level, his meta has skyrocketed and his true potential has been unlocked.​

• What is it?
  • 20YY is a movement to revolutionize Falco meta and unblock Falco's difficulties. This will take a long time, and a lot of effort, but it will open up the future of our beloved bird. We're forging the path to the top tier, and we're not stopping until we do.

• How?
  • By using all resources available, including help from high-level players, frame data, and TAS, we will do what we must.

• When do we start?
  • As soon we can get everything organized and ready. Hopefully within this year.
    • When will we finish?
      • Who knows? This year, next year, 2020? We'll know when the time comes.

• How can you get involved?
  • Simply add me on Skype (beywars). I'll add you to the group and we can get to work on discussing and decide which areas to work on first.

• Is this serious?
  • Yes, nothing but work from here on out. We don't want Circlejerks, memes, or ****posts, we want action.

• Why?
  • We're a dedicated group of Falco mains, who have nothing but love and admiration for this bird, we want to see Falco reach his true potential in the Melee Meta.

• Questions? Complaints? Doubts? Comments? Respond below with your opinion, let your voice be heard.

Honestly I'm looking forward to 20TT Where the Marth meta has been perfected and multi-countering is a reality. But I guess 20YY is cool, better than 20WW or 20VV at least. And don't get me started on 20AA

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Honestly I'm looking forward to 20ZZ Where the Marth meta has been perfected and multi-countering is a reality. But I guess 20YY is cool, better than 20WW or 20VV at least. And don't get me started on 20AA

What? lmao. 20TT is the Marth one

 

[FE_Hector]

Countering will never be a legitimate part of the Marth meta. Just stop. Here's the relevant frame data:

Total: 59
Counters: 5-29

Translation: If your opponent has time to react to the counter, they essentially have the time to punish you however they feel like.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Countering will never be a legitimate part of the Marth meta. Just stop. Here's the relevant frame data:

Total: 59
Counters: 5-29

Translation: If your opponent has time to react to the counter, they essentially have the time to punish you however they feel like.

Honestly it was a joke.
Besides 20YY could be it's own thing. It's just that we would have more spacies though

 

[FE_Hector]

The issue isn't the number of spacies we have, but the spread of spacies. There are so few legit Falco players out there, whereas a TON of the worlds best players use Fox. This needs to change.

 

[Klemes]

I like the effort. I would love to help, but realistically I should focus on getting MY bird to a satisfying level before thinking of adding my stone to the building.
There are plenty of good falco training tips and strategies out there, but a "definitive" (kinda, since new stuff should keep coming and be implemented in the falco meta) guide / library(?) would help immensely.
Both in helping newish players get somewhere with the bird (after 10 months of dedicated training, I def. think he's the one hardest S tier characher to get good with), and in developping cutting edge falco technology.

And also, I think setting as a goal to make falco top tier is a great idea. An ambitious objective can push people to excel and do wonders.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I like the effort. I would love to help, but realistically I should focus on getting MY bird to a satisfying level before thinking of adding my stone to the building.
There are plenty of good falco training tips and strategies out there, but a "definitive" (kinda, since new stuff should keep coming and be implemented in the falco meta) guide / library(?) would help immensely.
Both in helping newish players get somewhere with the bird (after 10 months of dedicated training, I def. think he's the one hardest S tier characher to get good with), and in developping cutting edge falco technology.

And also, I think setting as a goal to make falco top tier is a great idea. An ambitious objective can push people to excel and do wonders.

We can help you get there, there's a long journey ahead of us all.

 

[FE_Hector]

I like the effort. I would love to help, but realistically I should focus on getting MY bird to a satisfying level before thinking of adding my stone to the building.
There are plenty of good falco training tips and strategies out there, but a "definitive" (kinda, since new stuff should keep coming and be implemented in the falco meta) guide / library(?) would help immensely.
Both in helping newish players get somewhere with the bird (after 10 months of dedicated training, I def. think he's the one hardest S tier characher to get good with), and in developping cutting edge falco technology.

And also, I think setting as a goal to make falco top tier is a great idea. An ambitious objective can push people to excel and do wonders.

To be completely honest, I've only been playing my Falco agaisnt people for about a month, and not against people for another month on top of that. But I learn my theorycraft really fast from watching top-level play, so if you think you can contribute to the movement, just let us know.

 

[BluJay-]

The year is 20YY. Falco has reached a new level, his meta has skyrocketed and his true potential has been unlocked.​

• What is it?
  • 20YY is a movement to revolutionize Falco meta and unblock Falco's difficulties. This will take a long time, and a lot of effort, but it will open up the future of our beloved bird. We're forging the path to the top tier, and we're not stopping until we do.

• How?
  • By using all resources available, including help from high-level players, frame data, and TAS, we will do what we must.

• When do we start?
  • As soon we can get everything organized and ready. Hopefully within this year.
    • When will we finish?
      • Who knows? This year, next year, 2020? We'll know when the time comes.

• How can you get involved?
  • Simply add me on Skype (beywars). I'll add you to the group and we can get to work on discussing and decide which areas to work on first.

• Is this serious?
  • Yes, nothing but work from here on out. We don't want Circlejerks, memes, or ****posts, we want action.

• Why?
  • We're a dedicated group of Falco mains, who have nothing but love and admiration for this bird, we want to see Falco reach his true potential in the Melee Meta.

• Questions? Complaints? Doubts? Comments? Respond below with your opinion, let your voice be heard.

I can't use Skype but would like to be a part of this.... Can like... I email or something?

 

[EZPZ]

Should make a discord server for people that don't use skype

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I can't use Skype but would like to be a part of this.... Can like... I email or something?

Should make a discord server for people that don't use skype

We actually have had a Discord server for a while now, here's the link! http://bit.do/20yys

 

[BluJay-]

We actually have had a Discord server for a while now, here's the link! http://bit.do/20yys

Discord?

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Discord?

It's like a mix of Skype and Teamspeak, but better.

 

[BluJay-]

Ok I'm excited for this

 

[EZPZ]

You don't have to even download the app which is another great thing about it, you can just use it in your browser

 

[BluJay-]

You don't have to even download the app which is another great thing about it, you can just use it in your browser

It's trying to force me to get it, I can't view it without app :/

 

[BluJay-]

Huh

 

[GenNyan]

In this meta, it seems Falco gets ignored for these reasons:
1) not very accessible
2) much easier characters to learn
3) very complicated to play from low level

Thats odd. I started as a jigglypuff main, but got frustrated and switched to Falco because I thought that he would be easier to learn (He was). Never realized that people though Falco was inaccessible. I'm terrible so it doesn't count for much, but it only took a week for me to feel comfortable with falco after a few months of puff.

 

[Spoice]

Thats odd. I started as a jigglypuff main, but got frustrated and switched to Falco because I thought that he would be easier to learn (He was). Never realized that people though Falco was inaccessible. I'm terrible so it doesn't count for much, but it only took a week for me to feel comfortable with falco after a few months of puff.

I find once I began to dig deeper into Falco's potential, it became harder and harder for me to use him.

 

[FE_Hector]

I find once I began to dig deeper into Falco's potential, it became harder and harder for me to use him.

And honestly, given the nature of this movement, I'd say that's almost a good thing. The fact that he becomes harder to use as you find out more about him just shows how much we still DON'T know about him. Maybe I'm just looking too deeply into this, though.

 

[GenNyan]

I find once I began to dig deeper into Falco's potential, it became harder and harder for me to use him.

That's true for basically every character though.

 

[Spoice]

That's true for basically every character though.

Definitely true, but I feel like Falco's learning curve just gets steeper and steeper. Unless you wanna be a tripleshining fox like hax of course.

 

[Wald0]

I would definitely like to be apart of this...how can communicate with you guys and share my findings?

 

[MrYaah]

original post has instructions

 

[MALVM MALVM]

Do y'all have a spreadsheet or something of useful %s to know, like when strong bair sends a character off each stage from the center with survival DI or when dair from an arbitrary height allows someone to tech or not.

 

[FE_Hector]

I don't think we have anything specific like that, but I know that dair is techable around 50%.

 

[KP17]

honest question, are any of you guys actually good? and with falco? the intentions of this thread are good, but honestly, getting better as a player by seeking the advice of better players who can communicate useful ideas is way better than just brainstorming in a general manner.