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20YY: The Falco Movement
- Thread starter 20YY SS | Saiblade
- Start date
20YY SS | Saiblade
Obviously not biased towards Falco
A game.20YY SS | Saiblade was a set away from top 16 at STR. I'd say he's pretty good.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
nuev0
Smash Rookie
Actually joined smashboards again after all these years to contribute to this thread lol
I'll add you on skype (my skype name is Dermard, btw).
I have the means to record gameplay, and I'm planning on making a Falco tutorial for beginners trying to get into the game. He's really an intimidating character to start out with I find; my friend who I've been trying to train often switches to Fox after Falco, saying "Fox just feels so much more right."
Even when I started playing I found Fox to be much better to play than Falco, mostly due to the fact that he was quick. But once I switched, I realized how brutal and gnarly the birds combos were that I can't possibly go back to any other character.
Learning the basics of Falco is key, and since it was only recently (about 8 or so months ago) that I started REALLY trying to get good with him, I feel like I could make a good tutorial for beginners, since I was in the position of not understanding him not that long ago.
I agree with the notion that he's an amazing character to play, but that the hump to get over is that he's not too noob friendly. So I'd like to help out with that.
I'll add you on skype (my skype name is Dermard, btw).
I have the means to record gameplay, and I'm planning on making a Falco tutorial for beginners trying to get into the game. He's really an intimidating character to start out with I find; my friend who I've been trying to train often switches to Fox after Falco, saying "Fox just feels so much more right."
Even when I started playing I found Fox to be much better to play than Falco, mostly due to the fact that he was quick. But once I switched, I realized how brutal and gnarly the birds combos were that I can't possibly go back to any other character.
Learning the basics of Falco is key, and since it was only recently (about 8 or so months ago) that I started REALLY trying to get good with him, I feel like I could make a good tutorial for beginners, since I was in the position of not understanding him not that long ago.
I agree with the notion that he's an amazing character to play, but that the hump to get over is that he's not too noob friendly. So I'd like to help out with that.
Wald0
Smash Cadet
I agree there aren't very good beginner falco guides out there, I'd like to see yours.
nuev0
Smash Rookie
Do you guys think that when making the guide, I should be under the impression that those watching know how to shorthop/L-cancel already?
Wald0
Smash Cadet
well you can just mention then you have to do it.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Dude, go for it. I'd say assume they at least know how to WD and SHFFL, but definitely make him more accessible. There's just SO MUCH to him that I think that's what drives a lot of people away from using him as much.
Good lord.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
That show is such crap, I never recommend anybody watch it. A friend forced me to watch the first episode... and Saiblade and I are really good friends so I knew he'd appreciate it.
MALVM MALVM
Smash Apprentice
Alright I'll get back to y'all with a spreadsheet or something. Eventually. Probably. Don't hold your breath.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Sai was very close to making top 16 of pools in STR but that doesn't mean much in the long run. None of us are top 100 level players if thats what you're asking, but we're all trying to get there. In the end, only some of us will make it though, thats how life works. Some make it big, some don't.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Yea, just didn't get out of Arcadian R2 Pools is what he told me. He made it sound a bit different originally, but it still stands that he's pretty good. And honestly, I don't think it's as important to be really good in terms of gameplay as it is to be really good at theorycraft in this regard.
I created this for my friend and I figured this would be a good place to put it. As to whether I'm good or not, I've taken a game off of the top falco main imo in Chicago(not including kels, he has the best falco by quite a bit but he's not a falco main) So yeah I'm all right at best. My edgeguarding is by far the best part of my game and I figured I would post this here to help with 20YY.
Edge guarding spacies-
Off of grabs and dsmashes, or when they recover mid height.
Laser repeadelty as they up b until they're below the stage. Make sure to position yourself so that If they side b, you can react SH nair/bair if they try to side b on and dsmash if they go ledge. Then put out a bair/dair to cover as many options as possible. You can also go out there and back air really close to them, and although you won't hit them in their initial frames (as long as they know how to space their recovery), it will cut off more options than an on stage bair since you'll be closer.
You can off course, do off stage aerials if theres ever the oppurtinity. One things that not often used is,Against fox if they go really low, you can run off nair(no SH) and recover. Doing a SH dair won't get very low, so sometimes you need to do SH nair/runoff nair to get fox.
If they're below you, are somewhat close to the wall, and you don't have time to do SH dair, run off nair, or something like that,
put out a down air that gets the farthest below the stage at the last frame of their recover , and that will cover even the best sweet spots, and will cover every other angle too. Make sure your at the very, very edge of the stage, other wise it might not hit them off. If they space it so that going straight up will be outside of your dair range, then carry on as normal and if they go straight up, react to whether they fast fall or not and time a dsmash/fsmash after your dair. If you don't have time to react to whether they fast fall or not, put out a constant hitbox, prefferably a bair or nair.
If they're below and arent very close to the wall, up b stall do renew invincibility(you want to get fresh invincibility 0-5 frames after they start moving), then shine, react to where they're going, and back air. Shine makes the ledge hop back air input easier and quicker, so I would suggest it. Also, if you're super cool and really good at moonwalking, you can moonwalk SH hop, drop down, jump back air. Sheiks coming next.
Edge guarding spacies-
Off of grabs and dsmashes, or when they recover mid height.
Laser repeadelty as they up b until they're below the stage. Make sure to position yourself so that If they side b, you can react SH nair/bair if they try to side b on and dsmash if they go ledge. Then put out a bair/dair to cover as many options as possible. You can also go out there and back air really close to them, and although you won't hit them in their initial frames (as long as they know how to space their recovery), it will cut off more options than an on stage bair since you'll be closer.
You can off course, do off stage aerials if theres ever the oppurtinity. One things that not often used is,Against fox if they go really low, you can run off nair(no SH) and recover. Doing a SH dair won't get very low, so sometimes you need to do SH nair/runoff nair to get fox.
If they're below you, are somewhat close to the wall, and you don't have time to do SH dair, run off nair, or something like that,
put out a down air that gets the farthest below the stage at the last frame of their recover , and that will cover even the best sweet spots, and will cover every other angle too. Make sure your at the very, very edge of the stage, other wise it might not hit them off. If they space it so that going straight up will be outside of your dair range, then carry on as normal and if they go straight up, react to whether they fast fall or not and time a dsmash/fsmash after your dair. If you don't have time to react to whether they fast fall or not, put out a constant hitbox, prefferably a bair or nair.
If they're below and arent very close to the wall, up b stall do renew invincibility(you want to get fresh invincibility 0-5 frames after they start moving), then shine, react to where they're going, and back air. Shine makes the ledge hop back air input easier and quicker, so I would suggest it. Also, if you're super cool and really good at moonwalking, you can moonwalk SH hop, drop down, jump back air. Sheiks coming next.
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Edgeguarding sheik- you know basic stuff. It's the same with every character and it's so boorriing. The only unique things with falco are- If they're below you, you can go balls deep with a SH dair. If they don't have a jump, you can go out there and back air her before her invincibility starts.If she does have jump she'll jump fair you, grab ledge, then make you sad. If you want a big punish off the standard grab ledge edge guard for sheik, you need to read. If you think she goes ledge, just hold on. If you think she's going on stage, you can roll, and fsmash her back towards the ledge. Otherwise you'll probably just get a dair into combo or something. She has about 20-25 frames of vulnerability at the beginning of her up B btw. Also you can try and snipe her with lasers and attempt to take her jump. If you stand on stage and try to laser, you'll get some decent percent, but she'll probly just recover low and double jump, so to catch her jump, you have to grab ledge to make her recover higher(cuz she doesn't want to be below when one ledge, cuz if you have invincibility then ledge hop bair/dair is unstoppable.), then read when she jumps and pull of something sick like reverse double laser. That should probly on be used if her jumping is predictable though. Also, you can go yolo and go out and back air her if she has her jump, it's just super risky. If she recovers predictably, wall jump dair can actually be optimal. Marth next.
I really want to shine (heh) with Falco, partially because when I play him against friends I bulldoze them (though it's probably his infamous 'crutch'), but I don't see why I should choose him over Fox. People Fox is the best, yada yada yada, 20XX and ****, but the only real thing that I see is his speed. How can Falco compare to the speed Fox has with almost everything that he does?
He has lasers, more priority, a far superior downair, more range, equal wavedash length and move speed to fox, better vertical mobility, better combos, an overall beter neutral. He has near as many options as fox has, but unlike fox, he can shut down almost all of his opponents options with lasers. So in comparison to his opponents, falco actually has more options than fox does. Foxs speed doesnt matter if he can't move and gets completely shut down by lasers. Fox just has a faster dash, slightly quicker SH, and slightly better recovery and kill power. Also, Imo, at the mid-high level falco has better edgeguarding. So that's why falco>fox. Btw, foxs moves aren't faster than falco, only his dash is. All their moves are identical in speed, except falcos side b is quicker.
So yeah this one is gonna be long. Theres just so much things you can do edgeguard, it's ridiculous. Here you go
Marth- Ledge hop back air is super good, especially if he doesn't have his jump. Dair trades with up b, so if you have a good read on when he up bs, you can shine turnaround downair. You can also stand on the stage, look for an opportunity to SH dair him, or runoff dair, trade with up. You can also full jump, then down with a dair to cover up b to ledge. Marth has like 30 frames of lag on his up b, so you should be able to react, fastfall, then dair. Standing on platform and coming down with a dair is super good too, and is way better, as long as you're not on FD or stadium. You can also standback a bit to avoid up b hitbox and then wavedash in dsmash, which, as long as you react quickly, will cover both options. I haven't tested that out yet, as I thought of it today, so
I'm not sure. An alternative that I know works, and works really freaking well, is to stand back a bit, then dsmash/fsmash if he comes on stage, and run foward SH dair if he goes to ledge. Always mix in run off SH dairs and on stage SH dairs if you feel like you have a good read on his recovery. As you can tell from this guide, edgeguard marth from on-stage is a lot more complicated than edge guard from the ledge, but Imo it is better if you do it correctly. I really enjoy edgeguarding marth with falco, theres so much more to it than other characters vs marth. They're all just the same, basic, boring, grab ledge, force on stage, punish flow charty edgeguards. Also, you can invincible ledge dash downsmash, which is super good. Find what works best for you, you just need moderately quick reactions and a good read on his recovery. I personally prefer standing above on a platform and then coming down with a down air, but it all depends on the person. Also, suicide down air kills 100% of the time if you do it right, theres nothing he can do to stop it, even with a jump. Just remember that.
Marth- Ledge hop back air is super good, especially if he doesn't have his jump. Dair trades with up b, so if you have a good read on when he up bs, you can shine turnaround downair. You can also stand on the stage, look for an opportunity to SH dair him, or runoff dair, trade with up. You can also full jump, then down with a dair to cover up b to ledge. Marth has like 30 frames of lag on his up b, so you should be able to react, fastfall, then dair. Standing on platform and coming down with a dair is super good too, and is way better, as long as you're not on FD or stadium. You can also standback a bit to avoid up b hitbox and then wavedash in dsmash, which, as long as you react quickly, will cover both options. I haven't tested that out yet, as I thought of it today, so
I'm not sure. An alternative that I know works, and works really freaking well, is to stand back a bit, then dsmash/fsmash if he comes on stage, and run foward SH dair if he goes to ledge. Always mix in run off SH dairs and on stage SH dairs if you feel like you have a good read on his recovery. As you can tell from this guide, edgeguard marth from on-stage is a lot more complicated than edge guard from the ledge, but Imo it is better if you do it correctly. I really enjoy edgeguarding marth with falco, theres so much more to it than other characters vs marth. They're all just the same, basic, boring, grab ledge, force on stage, punish flow charty edgeguards. Also, you can invincible ledge dash downsmash, which is super good. Find what works best for you, you just need moderately quick reactions and a good read on his recovery. I personally prefer standing above on a platform and then coming down with a down air, but it all depends on the person. Also, suicide down air kills 100% of the time if you do it right, theres nothing he can do to stop it, even with a jump. Just remember that.
Puff- laser a lot for percent. If you're lucky you'll get in a few bairs. If she messes up real bad, you might get a dair. I prefer not to grab ledge, cuz I welcome her going to the ledge. It's probably worse for her than being off stage. Plus, you need to jump really freakin high against puff to edgeguard her sometimes. If she's ever below you, SH dair, and as long as she's not high enough to air dodge on, she's basically screwed. IMO, you can't really edgeguard jigglypuff with falco. Just get in a back air or two, a bunch of lasers, and some nice stage position.
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Peach- back air, back air, back air, back air, back air, back air. Not much else to explain, just practice against a peach. You want to edge guard from ledge unless she's really high up, then do it from stage. Remember, even if she gets ledge, she's only in a slightly better position than being off stage, cuz she has no options from there. Dealing with her float(which can be moderately difficult but she only has 5 seconds of float. Your back air has enough range that, once she finally comes in, you can easily back air her if you place it well, cuz her horizontal mobility doesn't even compare to your bair. Try to stay slightly under her when you back air so she can't fair you. I see falcos getting hit by it all the time, but you really never should. Back air is faster and has an upwards and sideways hitbox, while peachs fair is just foward, and won't reach below. Her jump isn't quick and will easily get destroyed by the superior vertical mobility of your jump.
When they go low to recover and still have their jump
Not many peachs will do this, but good ones will, and once they're below you and have a double jump(and are below 100%) theres nothing you can do but roll up, let them take ledge, then keep them from getting on stage.
If they're above 100% and go below you
Drop-down shine back air. If they're below 100% they'll probably recover before you do though. However if they're above 100%, you'll have them off stage without a double jump, and they'll be basically dead.
Just practice edgeguarding a peach to get when/where you should back air down. It just takes practice.
0-50% you're not gonna kill her, but you can get some decent percent off and get some stage positioning. All you can do to kill her at this percent is ledge drop shine turnaround down air if she does something stupid.
50-100%
If you do everything you should be doing, you should get the kill if her recovery is just average. If it's really good, and you're edgeguarding is good, whether you kill her or not is just a toss up. Worst case scenario, you get some decent percent and good stage positioning.
100-150%
If you edgeguard her well she should be dead 9/10 times, regardless of how good the players recovery is.
Yeah basically just pretend your jigglypuff and backair 15 times lol. Hope this helped. But it can only do so much, you have to practice against a decent peach if you really want to get down edgeguarding her. Good luck!
When they go low to recover and still have their jump
Not many peachs will do this, but good ones will, and once they're below you and have a double jump(and are below 100%) theres nothing you can do but roll up, let them take ledge, then keep them from getting on stage.
If they're above 100% and go below you
Drop-down shine back air. If they're below 100% they'll probably recover before you do though. However if they're above 100%, you'll have them off stage without a double jump, and they'll be basically dead.
Just practice edgeguarding a peach to get when/where you should back air down. It just takes practice.
0-50% you're not gonna kill her, but you can get some decent percent off and get some stage positioning. All you can do to kill her at this percent is ledge drop shine turnaround down air if she does something stupid.
50-100%
If you do everything you should be doing, you should get the kill if her recovery is just average. If it's really good, and you're edgeguarding is good, whether you kill her or not is just a toss up. Worst case scenario, you get some decent percent and good stage positioning.
100-150%
If you edgeguard her well she should be dead 9/10 times, regardless of how good the players recovery is.
Yeah basically just pretend your jigglypuff and backair 15 times lol. Hope this helped. But it can only do so much, you have to practice against a decent peach if you really want to get down edgeguarding her. Good luck!
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Falcon:
You can do whatever the **** you want. It don't matter none. Try new things, be creative. Try shine spiking him by hitting him into the stage. Try to edgeguard with your side b. Try up B'ing him. Just do wall jump stuff. Get hit by his up b and wall jump tech downair. Just be creative, and remember whatever you do, it'll work.
You can do whatever the **** you want. It don't matter none. Try new things, be creative. Try shine spiking him by hitting him into the stage. Try to edgeguard with your side b. Try up B'ing him. Just do wall jump stuff. Get hit by his up b and wall jump tech downair. Just be creative, and remember whatever you do, it'll work.
Well this was nice. I hoped I helped. And one more thing, you can trade downair with foxs up b intitial flames. It's super hard, and you have to have near perfect consistency on it before you should do it in tournament, but it's super freaking good, and truly resembles 20YY. Also here's a somewhat legitimate, somewhat sarcastic tier list of the complexity of edgeguarding strats for falco.
SS tier:
Marth
Fox
Pretend your jigglypuff tier:
Peach
S tier:
Falco
Sheik
F tier because theres nothing you can
really do besides give up on life and question why hungrybox is the only good puff main:
Jigglypuff
Bowser tier:
captain falcon
Edit: my god I just realized how many typos there are in these. O well I'm too lazy to change it rofl. And thanks, I'm glad I was able to help.
SS tier:
Marth
Fox
Pretend your jigglypuff tier:
Peach
S tier:
Falco
Sheik
F tier because theres nothing you can
really do besides give up on life and question why hungrybox is the only good puff main:
Jigglypuff
Bowser tier:
captain falcon
Edit: my god I just realized how many typos there are in these. O well I'm too lazy to change it rofl. And thanks, I'm glad I was able to help.
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That's actually ridiculously helpful. Thank you!
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I would yell at you for multiposting... but all of that was pretty legit content and it did a really good job of splitting everything up. Can you not combine it all into one post, though?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
If you wanted to split it between characters, it doesn't take much effort at all to color-code headings for each character or something like that. Looking over Kadano's Perfect Marth Class wasn't intrusive at all, and it's far longer than all of those posts combined.
Yeah that's a good idea. I'll do that when I make a separate thread for it. I'm gonna improve it, color code it, get rid of all those typos, write a legitimate guide on edgeguarding falcon, and maybe add some other characters too. I'll add in pikachu, yoshi, samus, and any other characters you guys want me to add. Probably Friday or Saturday.
Deku-Scrub
Smash Rookie
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
If you want to, get on the Discord. Sai and I are both on pretty often and we're definitely NOT the only people willing to answer questions.Total noob here, I just wanted to say that I'm excited to see what this project turns into. Hopefully I'll learn a thing or two. I have a ton of questions about how to actually play this guy.
_trix_ Thanks for the rundown, it was an informative read.
Deku-Scrub
Smash Rookie
Cool, I'll check it out.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Yes, this is fully about pushing his meta. Walljumps have situational use, but can be read sorta easily and put you in a dangerous situation sometimes.
Landing with AC bair isn't a bad idea, but sometimes you're doing other things or need to not do anything for fear of a clever counterattack
TurtleTopHat
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2015
- Messages
- 2
I sent a request!
Deku-Scrub
Smash Rookie
Maybe because Fox is fast on the X axis and Falco controls the Y axis well? Probably not right, but a rather convenient coincidence.
Codey
Smash Rookie
The year is 20XX. Everyone plays Fox at TAS levels of perfection. Because of this, the winner of a match depends solely on port priority. The RPS metagame has evolved to ridiculous levels due to it being the only remaining factor to decide matches.
^says this on main screen of 20xx if anyone didn't realize that. 20YY is referring to a year where it is falco instead of fox
^says this on main screen of 20xx if anyone didn't realize that. 20YY is referring to a year where it is falco instead of fox
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
TBH, the name doesn't need to have any significance past the fact that it's recognizable. As far as 20XX goes, that's still impossible at TAS level because human nature and creativity gets in the way. It's a ******** goal, and everybody in 20XX can know that I say that because it's true.
OgiEthan
Smash Apprentice
Sick. <3 bird bois
Anyone ever see that sick Marth up tilt graphic that really fleshes out the move?
http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/f/fb/Utilt_with_text.png
Someone should do that for Falco's moves. I'm really interested too see how Bair and Nair really work.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/f/fb/Utilt_with_text.png
Someone should do that for Falco's moves. I'm really interested too see how Bair and Nair really work.