Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Dire Creeper]

What do you guys think will be the biggest change from the 2013 tier list to the tier list coming in a week?

Biggest rise: Yoshi w/o question and 2nd highest rise to Luigi.
Biggest drop: Tough to say, I'd probably go w/ Roy.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I would say either Doc, Ganon, or Roy with biggest drop. The pal tier list had the same thing I think. Yoshi with the biggest jump, then Weegee or Pikachu in Second. I personally think Roy is going to drop the most.

 

[pichuplayer]

I would say either Doc, Ganon, or Roy with biggest drop. The pal tier list had the same thing I think. Yoshi with the biggest jump, then Weegee or Pikachu in Second. I personally think Roy is going to drop the most.

it was Pika in second

 

[MurphyPrime]

It depends when the tier list was voted on. If it was largely before TBH5, then Luigi is going to be very similar. After it, Luigi could jump a few places.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Knowing one matchup better than a few others doesn't make that character lower ranked. If this guy played one of the Mario Bros. instead, you'd basically be saying the same thing.

No, cuz this same guy mains Mario along with Falco and Sheik and I always have trouble with Mario anyways. But it's prolly cuz I mainly play the Links and they are free combo meals.

So I still feel like the Bros have more potential then Pika, but Pika and Ganon could switch places maybe... I dont feel like there is a huge difference in viability between characters within the same tier.

Dire Creeper is right. A pikachu has made top 8 in majors recently more than once. Mario hasn't for a while, Luigi has once (Twice if you include Zenith 2012. At least I think that was the other Weegee in top 8). If you are going to throw a Mario Bros ahead of Pikachu, Doc has more reason.

Mario shouldn't be ahead of Doc in my opinion. Both have about equal combo ability ( Mario a bit more just cause he has better mobility) but Doc actually has a finisher. At least that's what I think.

That just means Pikachu is more popular to use now, prolly cuz people being inspired by Axe. And that's also prolly why Little Link is now considered better than vanilla Link.

OR... maybe my Smash partner just doesnt know how to use Pika as well as the Bros, and I'm basing too much of this list on only my match ups with him lolz

 

[pichuplayer]

No, cuz this same guy mains Mario along with Falco and Sheik and I always have trouble with Mario anyways. But it's prolly cuz I mainly play the Links and they are free combo meals.

So I still feel like the Bros have more potential then Pika, but Pika and Ganon could switch places maybe... I dont feel like there is a huge difference in viability between characters within the same tier.

That just means Pikachu is more popular to use now, prolly cuz people being inspired by Axe. And that's also prolly why Little Link is now considered better than vanilla Link.

OR... maybe my Smash partner just doesnt know how to use Pika as well as the Bros, and I'm basing too much of this list on only my match ups with him lolz

Maybe results is usually what i based my lists unless i can get a characters placing without that like Pika or Fox

 

[FooltheFlames]

Maybe results is usually what i based my lists unless i can get a characters placing without that like Pika or Fox

Yeah, everyone is different and we all have different experiences with this game so yeeeah~

 

[MurphyPrime]

Both Dire Creeper and I are arguing Pikachu is better than our main for a reason. Pikachu isn't actually more popular than weegee. Definitely Mario though, I will give you credit there. But there are at least 4 high caliber Luigis I can think of. For Pikachu there is Axe and DJ Nintendo (only fairly recently).

Pikachu just has more options than the Mario bros. Luigi can only approach by catching people off guard (they don't expect what will be Luigi's choice out of wave dash) and Mario has a horrible time approaching the top characters (at least that's what I think). Pikachu has a fairly safe nair (still not fox level, but pretty good), a very good dash dance, is a fast character on ground and air, and has a small hurtbox.

Pikachu can gimp people fairly safely, where as the Mario bros it's much riskier. Pikachu is very hard to gimp, where as the Mario bros are pretty easy to gimp (god damn needles...). Pikachu's Recovery is insanely good compared to the Mario bros. The big advantage of the Mario bros is their combo game, but if you can't approach well what is the point? Luigi does have stronger aerials than Pikachu, but his lack of aerial movement makes them not as viable (they are amazing combo finishers though, especially the dair).

That's why I think Pikachu is better, but again this is all opinion.

 

[Plunder]

Yea Pikachu is at least a whole tier better than Mario. The A tier is not the same as other tiers, the viability varies wildly within.

Almost everything with Pikachu is better except for his weight.

 

[pichuplayer]

Yea Pikachu is at least a whole tier better than Mario. The A tier is not the same as other tiers, the viability varies wildly within.

Almost everything with Pikachu is better except for his weight.

well he has been going on a diet so blame that i guess

 

[MurphyPrime]

I think Mario can combo a little bit better, but that's the only other pro for Mario.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Pika can gimp super easily... his uair is just plain Evil!

Both Dire Creeper and I are arguing Pikachu is better than our main for a reason. Pikachu isn't actually more popular than weegee. Definitely Mario though, I will give you credit there. But there are at least 4 high caliber Luigis I can think of. For Pikachu there is Axe and DJ Nintendo (only fairly recently).

Pikachu just has more options than the Mario bros. Luigi can only approach by catching people off guard (they don't expect what will be Luigi's choice out of wave dash) and Mario has a horrible time approaching the top characters (at least that's what I think). Pikachu has a fairly safe nair (still not fox level, but pretty good), a very good dash dance, is a fast character on ground and air, and has a small hurtbox.

Pikachu can gimp people fairly safely, where as the Mario bros it's much riskier. Pikachu is very hard to gimp, where as the Mario bros are pretty easy to gimp (god damn needles...). Pikachu's Recovery is insanely good compared to the Mario bros. The big advantage of the Mario bros is their combo game, but if you can't approach well what is the point? Luigi does have stronger aerials than Pikachu, but his lack of aerial movement makes them not as viable (they are amazing combo finishers though, especially the dair).

That's why I think Pikachu is better, but again this is all opinion.

ALL very good points ^_^
buuut I dont think we should count a characters recovery as such big deal when it comes to placing them higher or lower than someone else in a tier list.

Just look at Marth and Mewtwo for example~
Marth: One of the most predictable recoveries in the game, but undeniably Top/High Tier.
Mewtwo: The best Recovery besides Jigglypuff, but he's definitely 2nd to last Tier material.

You can switch anyone I put in A Tier in any order that you want, they all more or less have the same tourney viability to me~

 

[MurphyPrime]

It's not a big deal, just a little bit more why Pikachu is better. I more meant if you shine spike Pikachu, he can make it back, where as the Mario Bros can't

 

[Modesty]

While I don't think Falcon will drop that many physical spots, I think he has dropped pretty significantly in people's idea of how competitively viable he is since the last tierlist.

 

[MurphyPrime]

That's true, but at the same time I don't think Falcon is being utilized as much as he could be.

 

[Dire Creeper]

One last revision of my list:

 

[MurphyPrime]

I pretty much agree with this. Might swap Marth and Falco, and Yoshi and Doc (only cause I like Yoshi more to be honest). But I completely agree with everything else.

 

[Modesty]

I think Samus > Pikachu but other than that, I pretty much agree.

 

[pichuplayer]

One last revision of my list:

good list man just to many ties for my liking but don't take my word for it

 

[EddyBearr]

This would be my tier list if I totally ignored results and based it on what I would expect from a "2017 top player metagame"

Top: Metagame-defining
High: Wins National Tournaments
~Serious main cut-off~
Borderline: Cursed
Viable: Wins Regional Tournaments
~Acceptable main cut-off~
Low: Only wins locals
Bottom: Shouldn't win anything

Top: >
High: > >
~~
Borderline: > >
Viable: > >
~~
Low: > > > > **
Bottom: > > > > > > > > >

*Young Link has a competitive place but shouldn't be able to win local events*

 

[MurphyPrime]

Why couldn't Weegee win a regional? Everything else I can see.

 

[EddyBearr]

Why couldn't Weegee win a regional? Everything else I can see.

I don't expect a proficient "2017 top player" to mess up their edgeguarding often enough to matter. The "Viable" characters have recoveries that force mix-ups and/or respect, letting them at least try to get back on stage. For Luigi, I think his recovery is far too exploitable for a "2017 top player". It's both easy to punish if properly covered, and easy to cover due to being very linear.

 

[MurphyPrime]

And Falcon's isn't though? Seems really similar to me.

 

[Spak]

I'm not sure if I can see ICs above Shiek and Marth because of their MUs against top/high tier floaties (Peach, Puff, Samus)

 

[EddyBearr]

And Falcon's isn't though? Seems really similar to me.

Falcon's neutral and punish game are far better than Luigi's. Recovery wise, they should both be dead. Where Falcon just has to "not screw up in neutral" and end up with a legitimate game, I see Luigi simply losing if neither player screws up neutral very much.

I'm not sure if I can see ICs above Shiek and Marth because of their MUs against top/high tier floaties (Peach, Puff, Samus)

It's not an uncommon view that IC's beat Puff. Samus is bad but do-able. Peach is really bad but there's a game to be played. I'd expect both Samus and Peach to go down in relevance and thus their hindrance on IC's potential to win majors going down as well. Additionally, I can only see IC's game getting drastically better than it is now, which combined with a no-shame wobbling tyrant, would lead to Peach/Samus not being nearly as difficult -- the openings happen and do get punished against Peach and Samus, and the IC's should be able to take the stock with 1 and a half openings.

 

[Modesty]

I don't think you can expect peach to become irrelevant enough for her not to be a serious problem for Icies.

 

[EddyBearr]

Modesty I agree, and I don't expect that. If she's 12% of characters now, I'd expect her to be like 6% of characters at top level in the future. She would lead to inconsistent places, but to put it another way.. if an IC's gets top 32, I'd expect it to have a higher likelihood of top 8 than a Sheik or Marth selected at random in top 32, and I definitely expect IC's to get top 32 more than often enough to take that gamble. I also just don't expect the matchup to be as bad with a well-disciplined tyrant of an IC's.

 

[FooltheFlames]

One last revision of my list:

Is Yoshi only that high now becuz of Amsa?
And why is Roy so low? Poor boy! xD

But I like this list, the Links are where they should be, borderline high tier, always the princes of the lower tiers. And I've always thought Mr. G and Mew2 had more going for them than Zelda or Roy! I have Peach at the 5th spot too~

This would be my tier list if I totally ignored results and based it on what I would expect from a "2017 top player metagame"

Top: Metagame-defining
High: Wins National Tournaments
~Serious main cut-off~
Borderline: Cursed
Viable: Wins Regional Tournaments
~Acceptable main cut-off~
Low: Only wins locals
Bottom: Shouldn't win anything

Top: >
High: > >
~~
Borderline: > >
Viable: > >
~~
Low: > > > > **
Bottom: > > > > > > > > >

*Young Link has a competitive place but shouldn't be able to win local events*

Link and Little Link would be in the viable tier if more notable players just chose to use them.
They're both like Yoshi: they both have all the tools they need to succeed but it's harder to implement them in a real time matchup than with other characters, but if you dedicate yourself to maining them, if you specialize them- they can really surprise your opponents!
And like Yoshi, too many people have underestimated them for far too long~

 

[MurphyPrime]

I'm not arguing whether Luigi is better than Falcon, I'm arguing Falcon has a **** recovery such that it violates your point of a viable character:

The "Viable" characters have recoveries that force mix-ups and/or respect, letting them at least try to get back on stage.

In that regards, doesn't that mean Falcon isn't viable either?

 

[Dire Creeper]

Is Yoshi only that high now becuz of Amsa?
And why is Roy so low? Poor boy! xD

Yoshi is that high because not only has aMSa placed very impressively with him, but he pretty much wrote the book on how to play as Yoshi. And that book isn't private to himself - he published it by getting such amazing results to be seen on Youtube. Plus it's not like no one else can read that book, take notes and gain the skill level of aMSa. If he can do it, anyone can.

Roy is placed this low because he's such an abysmal character. Bad hitboxes, bad recovery, the worst aerials in the game and only having a couple KO moves (which makes him more predictable about what he'll do to opponents at high %) are only a few prime examples of his flaws. I could go on forever, but I should end with the fact that most of his aerials don't kill till around 300-350%.

 

[Plunder]

I'm not arguing whether Luigi is better than Falcon, I'm arguing Falcon has a **** recovery such that it violates your point of a viable character:

In that regards, doesn't that mean Falcon isn't viable either?

A very silly comparison. Falcon's neutral and guaranteed set ups make him FAR superior. He has an easier time with some of the games most difficult weird MUs like Marth and Peach.

Yoshi is that high because not only has aMSa placed very impressively with him, but he pretty much wrote the book on how to play as Yoshi. And that book isn't private to himself - he published it by getting such amazing results to be seen on Youtube. Plus it's not like no one else can read that book, take notes and gain the skill level of aMSa. If he can do it, anyone can.

I don't quite understand why people only consider one side like this.

1. AmSa didn't write the book, but he is definitely is a better player than V3ctorman.

2. As Yoshi becomes more familiar he ALSO becomes easier to beat and his gimmicks and weaknesses becomes very exposed. THe MU info gained against Yoshi will easily out pace any future skills and tech Yoshi players going forward will be able to gain (including AmSa).

3. Mid level no-name players that know the MU have beaten AmSa over and over again, sometimes even stopping him from qualifying completely at major tournaments. The most visible example is Light beating him, but there are a TON of examples that people seem unaware of (or they conveniently don't mention them). Like religious people cherry picking the bible.

4. Most high level matches that were streamed where AmSa won or did well.....it's quite obvious those player were clueless about the MU and made silly bad choices / let AmSa get away with a lot of very punishable things.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Fumi/Lil Fumi, Leffen, V3ctorman all played Yoshi before Amsa was known. Amsa is the first to actually use the known tech effectively. I will say that Amsa is generally getting better placings in Japan despite people becoming more familiar with the match-up. So maybe there is something more to Yoshi.

 

[Plunder]

Fumi/Lil Fumi, Leffen, V3ctorman all played Yoshi before Amsa was known. Amsa is the first to actually use the known tech effectively. I will say that Amsa is generally getting better placings in Japan despite people becoming more familiar with the match-up. So maybe there is something more to Yoshi.

Yes everyone knows about Leffen and Lil Fumi (Santiago)

But did they place highly at majors with Yoshi?

No. V3ctorman was the next closest thing, and AmSa has stated multiple times that's who he learned from and was inspired by.

And Japan really isn't an indicator of anything, just like PAL territories really aren't. Even though Japan uses the same version the skill level hasn't matched up since the very early Era of melee, and then there is Sweden which is the outlier when it comes to producing top level smashers. Other than that you've only got a handful of really great top level players that can contest (Ice, Professor Pro, etc)

 

[EddyBearr]

FooltheFlames I strongly disagree with Link and Young Link having the tools to win. They have awful defense, okay recovery, okay combos and bad killing. Yoshi has a respect-commanding recovery, great combos, great defense, and good killing. Yoshi was in this boat for a long time where people knew he had this amazing tech, but people assumed it was too hard to implement (few-frame links, reaction time, etc.). Link and Young Link aren't exactly in the same boat. They're definitely not significantly far from DK.

MurphyPrime It was not a necessity for a "viable character" (ex: Marth can just be exploited). It was a trait the other "mid tiers" had that sets them above the other mid tiers. Where Pika/Yoshi/Samus are all mid tier w/o recovery, and with good recoveries that make them higher, Falcon is a high tier w/o recovery and he's brought down with bad recovery.

 

[Modesty]

Let's be honest apart from that one time aMSa got 5th at apex, what has he ever done that would make anyone believe yoshi is anything other than low mid tier. I do believe there maybe some untapped potential in yoshi, but he's never gonna be anything other than a mid tier.

 

[EddyBearr]

Let's be honest apart from that one time aMSa got 5th at apex, what has he ever done that would make anyone believe yoshi is anything other than low mid tier. I do believe there maybe some untapped potential in yoshi, but he's never gonna be anything other than a mid tier.

25th at EVO 2013
9th at Apex 2014
5th at KoC4
17th at EVO 2014
25th at EVO 2015
Plethora of top 2/3 in Japan.

The characters with better results than these are the top 8, Samus, Pikachu, and Luigi (only after TBH5). Purely by results, this makes Yoshi like a tier above Doc / Mario / Ganon / everyone else.

 

[Modesty]

He has plenty of respectable results, but nothing groundbreaking really. It's like saying Pikachu is better than Falcon because of Axe. For Yoshi to seriously move up he would have to be regularly taking top 8 at majors imo. Also better than Doc Mario and Gannon but worse than Samus Pika and Luigi would be what I would consider low mid tier.

 

[Ranor469]

Characters within a tier are at similar levels. I welcome input about order within lower tiers. Although I think it is mostly right, the main purpose of this list is the break in the tiers. I couldn't find a useful way to have more than 4 tiers. It makes sense to have the top 7 together. This tier list is subject to change if a higher meta is discovered.

Viable-7
Fox- Played effectively by many top players and 4 of 6 best players use him as their first or second character. Clearly number 1 right now. The only reliable pick against Puff for all the top players. PPMD struggles against Hbox because he doesn't play Fox

Marth- PPMD and M2k have shown that Marth is super strong when on point. Even matchup with Fox.

Falco- Not as good as Fox. The best Falcos (PPMD and Mango) have other high tier alternates because of what he lacks. Mango picked up Fox and PPMD picked up Marth. It is quite telling that no high level viable tier player picks up Falco as an secondary.

Sheik- Many a strong Sheik in today's meta compared to everyone but Fox. Not quite as strong as the 3 above her. Has a fair amount to do with her weak matchup with Fox.

Puff- Hbox alone keeps this character in the meta (Mango left and won't revert) and above Peach. Fox matchup and lack of representation keeps Puff here

Peach- We can't ignore the strength of Armada's Peach. She is strong against most of the cast but has weak matchups against the characters above her (besides Falco)

ICs- We have consistently seen strong placings by Wobbles, Nintendude, Fly, and Chu over the years and they show that they can beat almost all the gods in a tournament setting as well as many other top players. Very weak against Peach. Wobbles Grand Finals run at Apex 2013 really solidifies their spot in this tier

Stretch-6
Falcon- The reason that ICs are Viable and Falcon is not is that the Icies matchups with the top 6 compared to Falcon. It's why we've seen deep runs by ICs players but not Falcon players. I think the break of this tier is important because the only characters that ever win nationals are above but not including Falcon on this list.

Pikachu- Above Samus. Take a look at Plup's improvement since switching from Samus to Sheik and how Hugs places at tourneys. Then take a look at how consistent Axe is and how he still places nearly as well as Plup but not quite as good because Pikachu is simply much more difficult to compete with than Sheik. I know he is only 1 person but his consistency so close to the top is very strong and more convincing than anything Samus has going for her.

Samus- Stronger representation than all those below. Best matchup with Fox outside Viable characters.

Luigi- Some representation relatively deep in tourneys. Tough matchups with the common viable characters

Yoshi- One person's relatively weak representation isn't enough to win over the Luigi mains

Ganon- The last character with representation in the MIOM top 100 for 2014. No new entrants predicted this year with characters below him. Debatably belongs down 1 tier

Limited-5
Doc- These characters are much more limited than the characters in the tier above them and are never seen near the top 8 at nationals (except maybe as specific counters like Armada's YL against Hbox)
Mario
Young Link
DK
Link-Not sure if he belongs here or down 1 tier. I welcome input on this.

Nothings-8
Game and Watch- if you play this character, his name describes what you will do- Game and then Watch. This describes the rest of the tier too. The order hardly matters- take your pick. Do any of these guys belong one tier up?
Mewtwo
Zelda
Ness
Roy
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby- I think we should all agree Kirby is the worst

 

[EddyBearr]

Kirby- I think we should all agree Kirby is the worst

Strongly disagree.

 

[TDK]

Strongly disagree.

Who would you put below him? Bowser? Zelda?