2.0.0 Patch?!

[Nekoo]

Chromicide (and Ikeicide to some extent) makes going after him offstage dangerous on occasion since if both players are at one stock Chromicide suddenly becomes the best and most open way to win the game which to me seems purely unintentional.

It is not unintentional.
The 3 exclusive line for Chrom doing his UP-B all implying about dragging his opponent down seems to reflect that philosophy, alongside the armor on the first swing to "counter" anyone too greedy to edgeguard.

That's why I'm betting that Up-B won't be touched up.

Like I said, in a game with barely any Defensive option, Chrom having a "Respect me" option is legit.

 

[Arthur97]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on that. it seems like Chrom was designed to get 100% of his respect onstage and xero of it offstage. Chromicide (and Ikeicide to some extent) makes going after him offstage dangerous on occasion since if both players are at one stock Chromicide suddenly becomes the best and most open way to win the game which to me seems purely unintentional.

If it were unintentional, would they really have made it link so well or be such a strong meteor?

 

[FLGibsonIII]

Ganon deserves Ganoncide more than Chrom deserves Chromocide imo. I don't mind if they don't touch Chrom's Up-b, but I wouldn't miss it either. He is strong enough on stage where I think it would justify the lack of a successful suicide move offstage.

 

[DutchPichu]

On which day is the update releasing, exactly?

 

[FLGibsonIII]

On which day is the update releasing, exactly?

We don't know, just sometime in the next week. I honestly suspect there will be a direct the day before it, but that's just me.

 

[Arrei]

The thing about Aethercide is, unlike most other suicide kills, it's not a command grab. I suggested it elsewhere as well but I think that puts it in line with stall and fall spikes instead of things like Ganoncide, with the only difference being Aether and Soaring Slash have immense base knockback (and must have it, lest the move fail to work). The fact that Ike's Aether no longer passes through the stage after two games where it did so without issue suggests the moves' power is intentional, as they didn't want Ike's version in particular to be able to drag people down while they were safely onstage. (I'd previously believed it was an aesthetic change but then we found out Simon's axe has no problem just falling through the stage like it ain't no thing...)

I'm of the opinion that Ganoncide should regain its previous status and make Ganon the victor, though. With the man being as sluggish as he is, he doesn't deserve having his recovery stopped by the opponent just sitting in his way, daring him to use side special.

 

[shade3134]

Please buff Kirby...... it's hard out here

 

[MrGameguycolor]

On the topic of Chromcide, I vote on removing it or making Chrom die first.

Chrom already has a nasty on-stage game, debatably top 5 at the current point, he's got to have a weakness somewhere.
So when you consider his recovery, his supposed moment of vulnerability that allows you the opponent to gain an advantage on him can kill you first at 0% because you challenged his Up-B, his main recovery tool (which has super armor BTW) at the wrong time.
That's not just right.

Plus Chrom isn't always forced to use his Up-B, he still has great aerial drift combine that with an air-dodge granting him some mix-ups so he's not always struggling to recover.

When you compare that to Ganon who lost his main "respect me" option that now punishes him for landing it when he's not a stock ahead (or the opponent mashes out) or puts him into free-fall when whiffed, hardly helping him get back to stage, it's clear who got it easier in the saving their stocks.

In short, remove Chromcide and let Ganon act out of Side-B. (Because if landing Flame Choke ain't going help anymore, then the least it can do is give you some extra distance)


Edit: Did I mention Chrom can grab the ledge, canceling his descend while still spiking on the opponent like a CPU in Cruel Mode...

 

[RichWalk9891]

The big jump to 2.0, instead of 1.3, tells me that we could be getting a bit more than just Piranha Plant. Maybe a new game mode? I mean, it seems like such a big jump for just one new character.

As for any upcoming balance patches, I'm more inclined to believe that it's for the best if there are buffs to be made from here on.

I think it's a little too early to consider making nerfs haphazardly, unless an overly strong combatant currently has a gameplay with a potent 'low risk, high reward' plan so powerful that it utterly decimating half of the cast.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

IMO, the various -icide moves should work the same. Either they all end up with the user dying first, or dying second. No playing favorites. If Ganoncide has Ganondorf die first, then Chrom and Bowser should die first too while using theirs. No double standards. I'd rather see Bowser and Ganondorf buffed for that, though I do agree Chrom is a slight bit OP at best, but I don't think he's necessarily unfair either.

 

[Arrei]

By that criteria, spikes like Bayonetta's, Bowser's, Tink's, etc. would have to have the same behavior when used to take a foe with them. Because though we slapped the -icide label on Aether and Soaring Slash, they are spike moves, not suicide grabs.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

By that criteria, spikes like Bayonetta's, Bowser's, Tink's, etc. would have to have the same behavior when used to take a foe with them.

Sounds fair to me by all means. I did say no double standards after all. Unless you have a good reason to make them apply differently. I see no real reason for Bowsercide and Ganoncide to be completely weak while Chrom, who doesn't even have a command throw, to get an unreasonable advantage. He already is supposed to have a bad recovery in turn for being rather good on the stage. That's his balance. So why should Ganondorf and Bowser have weaker options? Cause there should be an actual reason. If there's a proper reason, it wouldn't be a double standard, after all. Double standards are the lack of reasoning and just having something unfair for the sake of it.

 

[Arrei]

Bowsercide is the only one of the lot to give Bowser free reign over where he takes his victim, so that one's out, but I do think Ganoncide deserves first kill rights. But if you want to discuss reasons, I can think of two possible ones:

- The ones that kill the user are command grabs and end the user first under a supposed rule of "grabs that can be dragged to the blast zone must kill the user first". The spikes are not grabs, and thus are not meant to be bound by the same rules.
- Or, looking at it from the other angle, the ones that kill the victim first are spikes, which are intended to be aggressive options that decisively end an opponent in a vulnerable airborne position, and the moves would fail at the intended function of such moves if the user died first. Command grabs, on the other hand, do not have this same intended function.

The perceived double standard only happens because we try to categorize these moves as "suicide moves", but that's ultimately a category we made up.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

All the suicide kill moves defiantly should end the same way. My preference would be the user dies second since it won't make any difference in a timed battle, and this is already the standard of suicide kills in the competitive scene whether the game works that way or not.

 

[Arrei]

Eh, I definitely don't want to see a world where Bowsercide ends in his favor after he yanks you off from a third of the way onstage. We can make a case for Ganon, maybe Ridley, maybe even Dedede and Kirby, but Flying Slam just can't be allowed to do that IMO. If it were that strong, they'd have to make it so the opponent can control its direction a disproportionately high amount again like it used to in Smash 4 way back when, and that was just way frustrating.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

though I do agree Chrom is a slight bit OP

What? EXCUSE ME? All Smash characters are balanced! BALANCED, you hear me! No one is OP! Tier lists don't exist! Competitive play isn't real Smash! All of the fighters are equal and balanced! Chrom is terrible because of his recovery!

That was sarcasm

Yeah Chrom could use a nerf or two. Probably to Chromicide to balance out the -cide moves and to his airspeed because Chrombos are super simple yet super effective to pull off. Chrom is in that "zone" with Inkling and Pikachu/Pichu that I wouldn't complain if they got a few nerfs here and there.

 

[Arthur97]

Let's chill with the nerfs. For one, Chromicide is fundamentally different since it's a meteor and not a grab. And unlike Ganoncide, it usually requires more risk since if you whiff it, 99% of the time, you're dead without taking them with you meanwhile as Ganondorf you just land or grab the ledge (unless you actually tried it far from the stage for some reason).


In any case, this is starting to devolve into nerf culture it seems.

 

[Nekoo]

In any case, this is starting to devolve into nerf culture it seems.

Welcome to Smash patch Speculation.
Take a set, want some cookies? Maybe some tea?

Like I said. People complain more about what they can't beat than what they can.

Chrom should get some nerf, but they can't see that Soaring Slash was designed like that.

If you want to nerf Chrom, how about his F-tilt who's disgusting or his N-B? Jab perhaps? Or Up-Air? Y'know. The moves that actually pose an issue?

 

[Arthur97]

Welcome to Smash patch Speculation.
Take a set, want some cookies? Maybe some tea?

Like I said. People complain more about what they can't beat than what they can.

Chrom should get some nerf, but they can't see that Soaring Slash was designed like that.

If you want to nerf Chrom, how about his F-tilt who's disgusting or his N-B? Jab perhaps? Or Up-Air? Y'know. The moves that actually pose an issue?

I'm not even convinced he needs a nerf. Besides, F-tilt's range is probably about the only other thing they could do and leave Roy out of it.

 

[Nekoo]

I'm not even convinced he needs a nerf. Besides, F-tilt's range is probably about the only other thing they could do and leave Roy out of it.

Yeah that's the other issue, they love making Echoes the same...so if Chrom take ****, Roy will...
I think it was the same with the pits and Marthina in smash 4 right?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'm not even convinced he needs a nerf. Besides, F-tilt's range is probably about the only other thing they could do and leave Roy out of it.

Chrom's f-tilt is crazy. Imagine if the other three Marth's could kill you that swiftly by just bonking you with an almost unpunishable move. That and his up air and maybe forward air could use a little more startup/endlag.

But yeah how did this thread turn into nerf culture?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah that's the other issue, they love making Echoes the same...so if Chrom take ****, Roy will...
I think it was the same with the pits and Marthina in smash 4 right?

Most of the time. However, Pit and Dark Pit did get a patch with some separated changes.

We don't honestly know how they'll do it this time. That was their first time doing patches to begin with, so it's not a full-out precedent. Just like how Echoes aren't costumes first this time around, but planned from the start. Apparently, at least, if the interview means anything.

 

[Arthur97]

Most of the time. However, Pit and Dark Pit did get a patch with some separated changes.

We don't honestly know how they'll do it this time. That was their first time doing patches to begin with, so it's not a full-out precedent. Just like how Echoes aren't costumes first this time around, but planned from the start. Apparently, at least, if the interview means anything.

Judging by how echoes are often more cloney, I wouldn't expect more differences. Dark Pit and Lucina had differences removed so they seem almost determined to make them samey.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Judging by how echoes are often more cloney, I wouldn't expect more differences. Dark Pit and Lucina had differences removed so they seem almost determined to make them samey.

The game was rushed. That means nothing for patches at all. We haven't had enough balance patches to know how it'll go this time around.

Let's not jump the gun here.

 

[Arthur97]

The game was rushed. That means nothing for patches at all. We haven't had enough balance patches to know how it'll go this time around.

Let's not jump the gun here.

If it was rushed, they should have been practically copy and pasted from 4. They weren't. This seems like a conscious decision. Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter would support that idea however.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If it was rushed, they should have been practically copy and pasted from 4. They weren't. This seems like a conscious decision. Daisy, Dark Samus, and Richter would support that idea however.

It was rushed because the game is severely glitchy, unfinished in many areas, and tons of stuff was cut just to get it out on time. The game is still mighty broken right now and lacks a lot of playtesting. It's blatantly rushed. And they had to do so due to a lack of time available. Especially with that much content. Being rushed just means getting it out on time. It doesn't matter if you plan to somewhat remove content to make it faster, they absolutely didn't have enough time to playtest a ton of things, which still makes it rushed by definition. It needed absolutely more time before release to have everything work properly.

It means nothing for patches. We barely had one with very few changes. We don't have any legitimate precedent for this game to really go off of. There is nothing clear to expect. At best, a lot of changes are reasonable to expect due to the huge jump in versions, but that's it.

 

[Arthur97]

It was rushed because the game is severely glitchy, unfinished in many areas, and tons of stuff was cut just to get it out on time. The game is still mighty broken right now and lacks a lot of playtesting. It's blatantly rushed. And they had to do so due to a lack of time available. Especially with that much content. Being rushed just means getting it out on time. It doesn't matter if you plan to somewhat remove content to make it faster, they absolutely didn't have enough time to playtest a ton of things, which still makes it rushed by definition. It needed absolutely more time before release to have everything work properly.

It means nothing for patches. We barely had one with very few changes. We don't have any legitimate precedent for this game to really go off of. There is nothing clear to expect. At best, a lot of changes are reasonable to expect due to the huge jump in versions, but that's it.

Perhaps I should have specified, yes, this game doesn't seem quite done (yet some praise its polish), but if the veteran echoes were rushed, they likely would have been ported from 4 or a copy and paste of the Ultimate iteration of the originals. Intentional effort seems to have gone into those decisions to make them more cloney. Therefore, it seems likely that that is the intent. So, regardless of dev time, the decision to keep echoes very close to the originals (sans Ken for whatever reason) seems intentional (the numbering system alone supports this) and it would make sense that they will continue that practice.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Perhaps I should have specified, yes, this game doesn't seem quite done (yet some praise its polish), but if the veteran echoes were rushed, they likely would have been ported from 4 or a copy and paste of the Ultimate iteration of the originals. Intentional effort seems to have gone into those decisions to make them more cloney. Therefore, it seems likely that that is the intent. So, regardless of dev time, the decision to keep echoes very close to the originals (sans Ken for whatever reason) seems intentional (the numbering system alone supports this) and it would make sense that they will continue that practice.

Which doesn't again, mean a thing for actual patches.

It just means they took shortcuts to get the game done barely on time. Patches don't have anything related to that. That's its own thing. Think of how they super nerfed Bayonetta alone in Smash 4. This went against Sakurai's vision of her, as he intended her to be a strong combo character. Patterns don't really exist.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Chrom should get some nerf, but they can't see that Soaring Slash was designed like that.

So what's your argument against this?
No one has disproved it yet.

Chrom already has a nasty on-stage game, debatably top 5 at the current point, he's got to have a weakness somewhere.
So when you consider his recovery, his supposed moment of vulnerability that allows you the opponent to gain an advantage on him can kill you first at 0% because you challenged his Up-B, his main recovery tool (which has super armor BTW) at the wrong time.
That's not just right.

Plus Chrom isn't always forced to use his Up-B, he still has great aerial drift combine that with an air-dodge granting him some mix-ups so he's not always struggling to recover. Did I mention Chrom can grab the ledge, canceling his descend while still spiking on the opponent like a CPU in Cruel Mode...

When you compare that to Ganon who lost his main "respect me" option that now punishes him for landing it when he's not a stock ahead (or the opponent mashes out) or puts him into free-fall when whiffed, hardly helping him get back to stage, it's clear who got it easier in the saving their stocks.

 

[Nekoo]

So what's your argument against this?
No one has disproved it yet.

Well, I'll be honest with you, all of what you say can be debated with
"He need a Defensive option no matter what off-stage"

You don't make a character without any Defensive option off-stage. That has always been in the DNA of smash, especially as a "king of the hill" game.
It's your fault if you're greedy and try to jump to punish him by edgeguarding. The super Armor is ONLY during the first swing ESPECIALLY to punish people being greedy to edgeguard him.

Here, let me list you ALL Characters that nullifies Chrom's recovery


That's a lot. And when I say that ALL of these Characters kill Chrom the moment he's off-stage. I'm serious.

Chrom-Up B doesn't automatically snap on ledge, there a reasonable and generous window to push him.
Counter kill him at 0%
Projectile push him away enough to make his recovery wiff.
Let's not start with easy spikes like Ganon/Falcon/DK or gimp like Zelda's phantom and Mario/Squirtle water.
Or K.rool/DDD inhale
Or DK cargo grab

As for the aerial drift. It's the least he need if he want to survive. Remove his air speed, and he's done for even earlier. Because he'll be too slow to avoid incoming attacks
Yes, he sometimes doesn't need to recover to come back. But the air speed is here in case something is coming. Keep in mind that Chrom die the moment he do a directional air-dodge the Moment it's asliightly over/right at the level of the platform. So the Chrom Player is the one who need to be smart when he's off-stage and need to mix-up his recovery. Just like every Characters in the game, but except that for him, one mistake = death.

If you don't manage to kill Chrom or push him away/bait him when he's off-stage, or if you got killed by his up-B off stage.
Then you got absolutely outplayed and the fault is on you, especially since you were in a big adventage situation.



What I'm fine to remove is the 0 TO DEATH COMBO. However here, the issue isn't in the Up-B.
It's in what lead to the combo, Up-air/N-air/F-Air.
Change the knock back and angle to remove it.
But UP-B is fine as it is.

I'm not discussing others "Suicide move" because you're comparing a grab with a spike. I however do believe that Ganoncide Should be back. Not Bowsercide however. A good comparison would be T.Link/Corrin/Bayonetta down air

 

[MrGameguycolor]

SNIP

First of all, I never said his air-speed should be nerfed.

Secondly, Chrom does have Defensive options off-stage.
-All his Aerials
-A Counter
-Recovering high with Up-B
-Air-dodging to the ledge

That's about the same coverage or more then these characters:


Chrom ain't helpless off-stage, he's got more breathing room to work with at his point of disadvantage.

Edge-guarding is a risk, I know.
But if you're in a last stock case, Chrom's off-stage and at 100%, you're at 23%, you've worked hard to get Chrom off-stage and you want to get Chrom at his weakest. You know his ledge options are good enough for him to reset neutral (or even press him in advantage) off of one guess or mistake on your end.
You wait for him to come to you because you know he can swing at you and cover himself.
Your character doesn't have any "easy ways" of killing him, so you have to challenge him.
Chrom is approaching the ledge. Chrom up-b's to the ledge, you go out to the ledge to seal the stock, your move doesn't hit him, you ended getting caught in his Up-B and dying first (assuming the Chrom didn't even stap to the ledge), losing the game because you got "greedy" and trying pressing your advantage state.

What will that teach you and the Chrom.
-That you shouldn't go off-stage and edge-guard?
-That Chrom can just get away with winning by his simple up-b recovery
-That you shouldn't press advantage when you have the chance

If you're Chrom and you get launched off-stage, you shouldn't just get a free pass because you caught your opponent in Up-B at the right time.
You were off-stage, you have played better on stage since you have the tools, you are at risk, you should work to get out of it by doing more then just pressing Up-B when you're both at a last stock situation...

I haven't even talked about if the positions were reversed.

Chrom can just edge-guard by Up-Bing against your recovery and take an easy win off just that.
On a character who's already pretty dominate and rewarding on-stage.

If other, weaker characters like Ganon can't have this game-winning, clutch option, then why should Chrom...


Anyway, that's my argument.


Edit: I would be mildly okay with them just nerfing some other strong options to off-set the Chromcide.
I'd just prefer to remove the silly game-change nonsense first.

 

[Arthur97]

Or instead of nerfing Chrom, buff some others. Has he been dominating tournaments or something?

 

[Nekoo]

Or instead of nerfing Chrom, buff some others. Has he been dominating tournaments or something?

He hasn't.
He's been doing great/good in general in local/regionals, but way less than others Characters.

However a lot of people see him as an Online scrub who stomp player easily, like Little Mac during the begining of Smash 3ds.

Chrom have issue. But what people complain Aint the right one

 

[Arthur97]

He hasn't.
He's been doing great/good in general in local/regionals, but way less than others Characters.

However a lot of people see him as an Online scrub who stomp player easily, like Little Mac during the begining of Smash 3ds.

Chrom have issue. But what people complain Aint the right one

If he isn't dominating, then I take that as a sign that he isn't overpowered. Right now, the goal should be to bring other up, not knock some down.

 

[Nekoo]

If he isn't dominating, then I take that as a sign that he isn't overpowered. Right now, the goal should be to bring other up, not knock some down.

It should be a "balancing patch" not just "nerf that because I don't like it" patch.

Things Should go up, things should go down, but I respect people who want Chromcide removed, even though I don't think it's the best way to balance Chrom.

beside there Inklings's roller and now, that **** better get nerfed smfh

 

[Arthur97]

It should be a "balancing patch" not just "nerf that because I don't like it" patch.

Things Should go up, things should go down, but I respect people who want Chromcide removed, even though I don't think it's the best way to balance Chrom.

beside there Inklings's roller and now, that **** better get nerfed smfh

I don't think there should be nerfs this early...mostly. Chrom is not an overwhelming force. Apparently he's not even one of the top fighters. He doesn't need nerfs.

 

[Deleted member]

agh please don't nerf chromikaze it's like the only thing this poor boy has offstage lol

 

[Wiinner159]

agh please don't nerf chromikaze it's like the only thing this poor boy has offstage lol

Tell that to Little Mac players

It's interesting how this thread devolved completely into who should be nerfed or buffed when as earlier mentioned, this isn't like 1.3.0 or anything, this went straight up to 2.0.0, so you gotta think there's more significance to it than a couple balance changes. I'm hoping for some smaller stuff like the return of that conquest system I think from Smash 4 where it allowed you to fight for a team in a silly little vs thing. It's simple but I think it would be fun to see more people be incentivized to play characters they wouldn't normally pick. Best case scenario though I'd love to see some older modes return alongside an extra bundle of challenges to keep me busy. The multiplayer and the competition is fun for sure but for completionists like me it's always appreciated to see more challenges for me to attempt. Dunno who mentioned it before but I recall someone thinking of a possible unlockable skins system being tied to special challenges and I'd be ecstatic to have something like that in place, so long as it isn't a "do these extremely hard/grindy challenge or spend a couple bucks to get this skin" system.

 

[Arthur97]

I think it could just be odd numbering of updates.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think it could just be odd numbering of updates.

Since we're jumping from 1.2 right to 2.0 I bet this patch was planned form the start and includes a lot of content we've been hoping for. It's quite possible, I'd argue, that there's a Direct in store for us in correlation with this.