.............

[Rhubarbo]

I know what you mean OP, but once someone has totally escaped a combo in Brawl, they'll DI away, or airdodge and DI down into one of your attacks. Combos sadly will NEVER happen in Brawl.

 

[Demon_machinE]

This is someone without superman-like-terminology-skills; in their minds, the english dictionary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the terminology of worldwide communities of every single fighting game in history that they don't know. I didn't know what the hell nair was for quite a while - and many seem irritated to explain it. I think that's stupid.
edit: there are too combo's in brawl! did you see ike's AAA combo? it was all, powpowPOW.

Then learn the **** terminology before arguing, moron.

 

[Koga]

the thing is bro when u vs good players combos wont exsist. you can guess every single move and option your opponent can take but as soon as hes in the air hes got about 500 hours to make a choice on a short hop, hes got infinite air dodges, and hes got NO hitstun whats so freaking ever.

then u both land right? you run in and try to lure him into his laggy attack while u move back but oh wait WTF


u tripped into his fsmash and your opponenet is ike. lol brawl ftw?

Now while you're somewhat correct, You misrepresent the defensive options of brawl. There's only so many option they can take in the air one of which is an airdodge.


You cannot infinately airdodge, it has some lag frames where you're vunerable but not in control of your character, there are alot of arials that have less air lag than the air dodge and will help punish an air dodge.


Now i don't like theory fighter so don't think that's what im doing; but say im mario.

I grab and Dthrow->Uair. Now they airdodge my up air, now i have the following options: Up air again because they're still in airdodge lag and can't do anything; I can down air to rack up some more damage; or if positioned corectly i could Fair.


The lag on air dodges is almost always greater than the air-lag on moves and the landing lag while small exists and can be punished.

I'll upload videos of this later this month when im done with classes

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

Now while you're somewhat correct, You misrepresent the defensive options of brawl. There's only so many option they can take in the air one of which is an airdodge.


You cannot infinately airdodge, it has some lag frames where you're vunerable but not in control of your character, there are alot of arials that have less air lag than the air dodge and will help punish an air dodge.


Now i don't like theory fighter so don't think that's what im doing; but say im mario.

I grab and Dthrow->Uair. Now they airdodge my up air, now i have the following options: Up air again because they're still in airdodge lag and can't do anything; I can down air to rack up some more damage; or if positioned corectly i could Fair.


The lag on air dodges is almost always greater than the air-lag on moves and the landing lag while small exists and can be punished.

I'll upload videos of this later this month when im done with classes

They won't be in the air anymore by the time you finish your up-air. Air dodge keeps your normal falling momentum.

 

[BEES]

Brawl has little combos. 3-4 hits usually.

 

[Best101]

Now while you're somewhat correct, You misrepresent the defensive options of brawl. There's only so many option they can take in the air one of which is an airdodge.


You cannot infinately airdodge, it has some lag frames where you're vunerable but not in control of your character, there are alot of arials that have less air lag than the air dodge and will help punish an air dodge.


Now i don't like theory fighter so don't think that's what im doing; but say im mario.

I grab and Dthrow->Uair. Now they airdodge my up air, now i have the following options: Up air again because they're still in airdodge lag and can't do anything; I can down air to rack up some more damage; or if positioned corectly i could Fair.


The lag on air dodges is almost always greater than the air-lag on moves and the landing lag while small exists and can be punished.

I'll upload videos of this later this month when im done with classes

Your opponent could attack you back immediately after you grab, or he could just simply jump as soon as you throw, or he could take advantage of the game's insane DI and just DI away. He could even jump and air-dodge at the same time. Air-dodging isn't the only solution for escaping "combos".

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

No, the only options you have after getting hit in the air are not airdodging and airdodging alone:
* DI (insanely good now and insanely easy because of the freeze frames)
* 2nd jumping
* Doing an attack
* DI:ing and 2nd jumping
* DI:ing and doing an attack
* 2nd jumping and doing an attack
* All of the above

 

[Koga]

They won't be in the air anymore by the time you finish your up-air. Air dodge keeps your normal falling momentum.

True it keeps your normal falling speed, but they will still be in the air, Due to brawl's floatyness they will still be in their dodge animation at the very least.

Either way, airdodges are punishable. The only other thing that prevents the followup is DI which wasn't a problem in melee so why should it be here.

 

[Koga]

No, the only options you have after getting hit in the air are not airdodging and airdodging alone:
* DI (insanely good now and insanely easy because of the freeze frames)
* 2nd jumping
* Doing an attack
* DI:ing and 2nd jumping
* DI:ing and doing an attack
* 2nd jumping and doing an attack
* All of the above

See, you do know what your opponent can do and punish it accordingly. Don't try to say that you can't react to any of those actions, because you can. You might have to use your brain though.

also, i didn't say airdodging was the only option, just one of the options. I see the strawman.

 

[Zankoku]

The only other thing that prevents the followup is DI which wasn't a problem in melee so why should it be here.

Are you kidding? DI is visibly more pronounced in Brawl than it is in Melee. In Melee you could make a Pikachu fsmash send you at a 60 degree angle up and and away. In Brawl you can make a Pikachu fsmash send you completely vertically upward.

 

[Koga]

Are you kidding? DI is visibly more pronounced in Brawl than it is in Melee. In Melee you could make a Pikachu fsmash send you at a 60 degree angle up and and away. In Brawl you can make a Pikachu fsmash send you completely vertically upward.

True its more pronounced; however, my point that it is still punishable similar to how it was in melee still stands.

 

[Zankoku]

No, it doesn't. Proper DI could give opponents fewer options for continuing to combo in Melee because all the other options aren't fast enough. Proper DI in Brawl can change your angle to the degree that following up becomes impossible because they've gone way too far away from you to catch up before they landed and are ready to do something if you attempt to approach.

 

[hova]

i can't speak for the rest of the characters, but Peach has legit combos

 

[blade_master99]

i dont really care about combos cause I main ike and all ( his nair fastfalled can combo into u tilt or jab but thats situational) But Fox being one of my mains I find it important as He does have combos that work

 

[Taymond]

See, you do know what your opponent can do and punish it accordingly. Don't try to say that you can't react to any of those actions, because you can. You might have to use your brain though.

also, i didn't say airdodging was the only option, just one of the options. I see the strawman.

You don't seem to understand. Simply recognizing why comboing is severely hindered in Brawl is not enough to be able to immediately overcome that. Recognizing the problem doesn't make the problem solvable. Have you seen Brawl's DI?

In Brawl, DI alone can let the defender move beyond the possible reach of the attacker before the attacker can follow up. Not the lazy reach of the attacker. Not some median possible reach. You can DI completely out of reach. The attacker LITERALLY cannot catch up to you fast enough to combo you.

It's not a matter of identifying options and then learning to predict them. That's what Melee was about, believe it or not. You can know ever possible option **** well in Brawl, and yet you still can't do anything about it because the game engine, in a very basic and core way, does not allow adequate pursuit. We can't overcome the game engine itself.

It's not a matter of guessing what you're opponent will do correctly. I can guess correctly every single time, but because of ridiculous DI, they will still be beyond my reach before my character can attack again. Knowing where they're going doesn't matter in Brawl anymore, because you can't catch them even if you know.

 

[Dark Sonic]

i dont really care about combos cause I main ike and all ( his nair fastfalled can combo into u tilt or jab but thats situational) But Fox being one of my mains I find it important as He does have combos that work

Actually, it doesn't really combo into an up tilt. They can just airdodge.

 

[Koga]

You don't seem to understand. Simply recognizing why comboing is severely hindered in Brawl is not enough to be able to immediately overcome that. Recognizing the problem doesn't make the problem solvable. Have you seen Brawl's DI?

In Brawl, DI alone can let the defender move beyond the possible reach of the attacker before the attacker can follow up. Not the lazy reach of the attacker. Not some median possible reach. You can DI completely out of reach. The attacker LITERALLY cannot catch up to you fast enough to combo you.

It's not a matter of identifying options and then learning to predict them. That's what Melee was about, believe it or not. You can know ever possible option **** well in Brawl, and yet you still can't do anything about it because the game engine, in a very basic and core way, does not allow adequate pursuit. We can't overcome the game engine itself.

It's not a matter of guessing what you're opponent will do correctly. I can guess correctly every single time, but because of ridiculous DI, they will still be beyond my reach before my character can attack again. Knowing where they're going doesn't matter in Brawl anymore, because you can't catch them even if you know.

I read your entire post and i have to say that sounds more like a character/move problem than game engine.


alot of characters have projectiles which aid the followup. They can DI rediculously away but you can throw out a projectile which will give you enough time to punish whatever their reaction to that projectile is.


also, at most % i don't believe they can DI far enough away fast enough to allow for no followup unless you just used a really laggy attack. Which again is kinda your fault and not the games.


On a side not though. No one really talks about other games that lack a combo system. Take for example, the pre 3d Mortal Kombat. at the 3d stage they sort of did have some combo's so...


but anyways, those games really didn't have combo's but still allow for good competative play depending on your opinion of what is good.

Its late so i might edit this later but really, I think brawl's fine. Sure the punishment doesn't work like some people think it needs to, but again that's opinion.

also, i don't see how this notion that if you play the game more and practice that you should always beat someone who doesn't. I kinda like the fact that Tech skill isn't as important, I mean sure someone hasn't put in as much time as you, but if they make better decisions and play a better game than you shouldn't they win? If you practice a lot but they still can make less mistakes than you because of their superior judgment or tactical ability isn't that skill?

In the end its all opinion anyways.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I read your entire post and i have to say that sounds more like a character/move problem than game engine.


alot of characters have projectiles which aid the followup. They can DI rediculously away but you can throw out a projectile which will give you enough time to punish whatever their reaction to that projectile is.


also, at most % i don't believe they can DI far enough away fast enough to allow for no followup unless you just used a really laggy attack. Which again is kinda your fault and not the games.


On a side not though. No one really talks about other games that lack a combo system. Take for example, the pre 3d Mortal Kombat. at the 3d stage they sort of did have some combo's so...


but anyways, those games really didn't have combo's but still allow for good competative play depending on your opinion of what is good.

Its late so i might edit this later but really, I think brawl's fine. Sure the punishment doesn't work like some people think it needs to, but again that's opinion.

also, i don't see how this notion that if you play the game more and practice that you should always beat someone who doesn't. I kinda like the fact that Tech skill isn't as important, I mean sure someone hasn't put in as much time as you, but if they make better decisions and play a better game than you shouldn't they win? If you practice a lot but they still can make less mistakes than you because of their superior judgment or tactical ability isn't that skill?

In the end its all opinion anyways.

The place where this plan falls apart is after you throw the projectile. Even supposing it hits them, you have to recover from your attack and then run/jump over to your opponent to continue, and there's no one who can tag someone with a projectile and then run over fast enough to combo off of it. Hitstun is very short, and since there's no wavedashing or such, there's no real way to cover ground that quickly.

Secondly about the tech skill. In melee, you had to master both aspects of the game, technical AND psychological. A player in command of both would leave a player focusing on just one in the dust. But in brawl, there's very little tech skill to be had. To people who enjoyed the high skill ceiling of melee feel like they've more or less hit their limit already. It's almost like playing only half of a game you once had. There's just less room for a player to improve.

 

[Taymond]

Koga, you're just misunderstanding some of my points.

I'm not saying that a character can DI halfway across the stage before I take a step. Players can DI far enough away that hitstun has worn off before the attacker reaches them again. This not only blatantly breaks any combo possibility, but now gives the defender a large amount of options, once again. Once hitstun is gone, they can do anything they want. They are at no disadvantage whatsoever.

Attack moves in, plays clever, and gets a hit off. Defender DIs away, attacker pursues, but defender's hitstun is gone before attacker reaches defender. Every hit is immediately forgiven, there's no real way to followup on moves.

I'm not saying that I literally cannot get another hit off EVER on them because of magical DI. But by the time I'm able to get off my second hit, they are fully capable back in a defensive position, having suffered no disadvantage whatsoever. In a multitude of situations, the defender even recovers from a hit sooner than the attacker, allowing immediate punishment against the attacker.

The fact that some characters have projectiles to aid in approach is not a solution, it's a flaw. What about those without projectiles? They're just screwed? Only characters with projectiles are able to approach safely? Sweet. Great balancing decision, Nintendo. You've just removed approach for over half your cast. The fact that a dozen characters have a roughly immediate solution to the approach problem is NOT a complete solution. What about the other two thirds of the cast? Sucks for them?

 

[Koga]

Koga, you're just misunderstanding some of my points.

I'm not saying that a character can DI halfway across the stage before I take a step. Players can DI far enough away that hitstun has worn off before the attacker reaches them again. This not only blatantly breaks any combo possibility, but now gives the defender a large amount of options, once again. Once hitstun is gone, they can do anything they want. They are at no disadvantage whatsoever.

Attack moves in, plays clever, and gets a hit off. Defender DIs away, attacker pursues, but defender's hitstun is gone before attacker reaches defender. Every hit is immediately forgiven, there's no real way to followup on moves.

I'm not saying that I literally cannot get another hit off EVER on them because of magical DI. But by the time I'm able to get off my second hit, they are fully capable back in a defensive position, having suffered no disadvantage whatsoever. In a multitude of situations, the defender even recovers from a hit sooner than the attacker, allowing immediate punishment against the attacker.

The fact that some characters have projectiles to aid in approach is not a solution, it's a flaw. What about those without projectiles? They're just screwed? Only characters with projectiles are able to approach safely? Sweet. Great balancing decision, Nintendo. You've just removed approach for over half your cast. The fact that a dozen characters have a roughly immediate solution to the approach problem is NOT a complete solution. What about the other two thirds of the cast? Sucks for them?

You're right but im not talking about Hit stun. I'm talking about what fighting game Weeaboos Call Yomi.

Sure they've DI'd away and lost hit stun. You can either throw out a projectile or a good attack with little lag at all.

Sure now they can do anything, but they have to choose ONE thing to do. You being the initiator of the attack have the advantage of reading that choice and punishing it.


Even in a defensive game, the attacker almost all ways has the last say: Attack/Defense/Attack

Now of course this isn't all ways going to be the case, you're going to have to adjust to things your opponent does all the time. That doesn't mean Brawl doesn't have a method of follow up at all.


Now as far as characters go, I'm sure we've all figured out that projectile characters are at an advantage. Again, this still leaves alot of room for good competititon. Very few characters have no projectile at all, and most of those have good approach options of their own even with out powershielding.

What i really don't like about this disscussion is when i say that it does kinda come down to Projectiles everyone whines. Its not like melee was balanced that well either.

That doesn't mean that we don't have solutions just because the entire cast can't use them

In melee we had lots of universal Techs that all characters could use; however, Some characters benefited more from those techs than others and that fact combined with their moveset made them the top tier characters. A game does not need perfect character balance to be good or have solutions. It just needs open minded players.


@EGGMAN

Again see above im not refrencing hitstun.

and as far as that whole "you can't throw a projectile recover then jump and run...."

You do realize that you can jump THEN throw a projectile thus combining the two actions and cutting some lag off your projectile ala SHL? and with the physics of brawl you can even move towards your opponent in the air while you do this right?

 

[Zankoku]

With the physics of Brawl you no longer carry running momentum when you jump, so it can typically cause you to move slower. Several projectile users, like Toon Link and Wolf, don't even cancel their projectile lag by landing, so doing so is irrelevant except for certain projectile heights.

You seem to have this idea that the attacker is the one who can wait. Well, he can, but then he just becomes the defender. You're not actually attacking, you're just heading to a certain spot to wait for something you can block and react to. The "defender" is at fault for throwing out something without any reason to do so, and in doing so he became the one on the offensive, simultaneously putting him in a very vulnerable position.

 

[Yuna]

You're right but im not talking about Hit stun. I'm talking about what fighting game Weeaboos Call Yomi.

1) A weeaboo is not necessarily a Competitive fighting game player. You can be a Weeaboo without being a gamer of any kind. As usual, you're misusing words (derogative such at that).
2) I don't know what Yomi is, please define it for us.

Sure they've DI'd away and lost hit stun. You can either throw out a projectile or a good attack with little lag at all.

Let's see... off the top of my head, the following characters have projectiles that are fast enough to actually be used to combo:
* Falco
* Fox
* Wolf
* Pit (though less effective than the above 3)

All of these lag so much that if they hit, you cannot continue the combo, nor can you shoot and then jump in and approach if they airdodge (that is if they shoot out the projectile after successfully launching an opponent with an attack).

And what a wonderful combo you did! One move into a projectile... which doesn't kill (all KO-projectiles are too slow and are easily dodged).

Sure now they can do anything, but they have to choose ONE thing to do. You being the initiator of the attack have the advantage of reading that choice and punishing it.

Almost all projectiles in the game can be nullified by hitting them (you receive no damage). You can airdodge them. You can DI so they miss. You can even projectile the projectiles to cancel them out.

And still, what a wonderful combo! You just inflicted, what, 2-5% more or so of damage? Yay you.

Even in a defensive game, the attacker almost all ways has the last say: Attack/Defense/Attack

No they don't. It depends on the game. Stop talking in absolutely with absolutely no basis in reality.

Now of course this isn't all ways going to be the case, you're going to have to adjust to things your opponent does all the time. That doesn't mean Brawl doesn't have a method of follow up at all.

In 99% of all cases, you cannot follow up a move with another without the opponent having an easy time escaping it. No matter how much you claim otherwise without any proof to back it up.

Now as far as characters go, I'm sure we've all figured out that projectile characters are at an advantage. Again, this still leaves alot of room for good competititon. Very few characters have no projectile at all, and most of those have good approach options of their own even with out powershielding.

Bla bla bla.

What i really don't like about this disscussion is when i say that it does kinda come down to Projectiles everyone whines. Its not like melee was balanced that well either.

And? At least Melee wasn't as broken as this. And there aren't one jillion users running around hailing Brawl as the pinnacle of balance (which, for each passing day, is being proven more and more false).

That doesn't mean that we don't have solutions just because the entire cast can't use them

You saying something works =/= Something working

In melee we had lots of universal Techs that all characters could use; however, Some characters benefited more from those techs than others and that fact combined with their moveset made them the top tier characters. A game does not need perfect character balance to be good or have solutions. It just needs open minded players.

Bla bla bla

and as far as that whole "you can't throw a projectile recover then jump and run...."

You do realize that you can jump THEN throw a projectile thus combining the two actions and cutting some lag off your projectile ala SHL? and with the physics of brawl you can even move towards your opponent in the air while you do this right?

Not everyone can cancel anything by jumping and projectiling. Jumping also requires you to, you know, jump, which wastes valuable frames, during which your opponent will have more time to DI, aircontrol and airdodge out of the way.

Seriously, Koga. What game are you playing? Have you even tested some of these outlandish "combos" or "yomis" or whatever of yours out on good people? Have you even tested them out against bad people? You come up with all kinds of scenarios that are shot down time and again but you keep coming back repeating "But I'm right just because!" without being able to back it up using anything but your own opinion.

 

[Koga]

With the physics of Brawl you no longer carry running momentum when you jump, so it can typically cause you to move slower. Several projectile users, like Toon Link and Wolf, don't even cancel their projectile lag by landing, so doing so is irrelevant except for certain projectile heights.

You seem to have this idea that the attacker is the one who can wait. Well, he can, but then he just becomes the defender. You're not actually attacking, you're just heading to a certain spot to wait for something you can block and react to. The "defender" is at fault for throwing out something without any reason to do so, and in doing so he became the one on the offensive, simultaneously putting him in a very vulnerable position.

I feel like the goal posts keep changing in this disscussion......

Now you can't wait long enough or you're the Defender? Who gets to decide how long you get to wait? why is this even brought up?

Here's what im trying to describe, and for my example's i'll use mario because he's kind of the 'neutral' character.


If i get a hit on my opponent, they go DI'ing away like a mad man and i jump and throw a projectile (Oh and BTW, you can't keep your running momentum but you can move yourself in the air with the control stick)

Now they have some options, say they chose to shield it. I grab them.

See how you react to what your opponent does? There's nothing wrong with that description except mis-execution by the player.

again I'll upload some vids starting sometime two weeks from now.

1) A weeaboo is not necessarily a Competitive fighting game player. You can be a Weeaboo without being a gamer of any kind. As usual, you're misusing words (derogative such at that).
2) I don't know what Yomi is, please define it for us.

1) I know that's why i used a double adjective : Fighting game weeaboo. There are other kinds (okay technically its a triple adjective but whatever)

2) Yomi means having the read on you're opponent, the advantage of seeing what they're doing because they are reacting to you rather than acting

Just to clear things up, I'm not trying to say you can combo. I know that hit stun is to low for that, I'm pretty sure the OP was saying maybe we should take another look at how we classify t hings in brawl so i was just offering what i've found

Let's see... off the top of my head, the following characters have projectiles that are fast enough to actually be used to combo:
* Falco
* Fox
* Wolf
* Pit (though less effective than the above 3)

All of these lag so much that if they hit, you cannot continue the combo, nor can you shoot and then jump in and approach if they airdodge (that is if they shoot out the projectile after successfully launching an opponent with an attack).

And what a wonderful combo you did! One move into a projectile... which doesn't kill (all KO-projectiles are too slow and are easily dodged).

So what? Again im not saying you can really combo so stop saying things like this

Mario
Peach
Toon Link's boomerang if used correctly
Pieces of samus's suit
Olimar
Zelda
some others...

they all have projectiles your opponent has to react to and can't just keep taking them to the face

Almost all projectiles in the game can be nullified by hitting them (you receive no damage). You can airdodge them. You can DI so they miss. You can even projectile the projectiles to cancel them out.

And still, what a wonderful combo! You just inflicted, what, 2-5% more or so of damage? Yay you.

all of that is punishable by either another projectile or your foot in their face. You're going to throw up all these different things your opponent can do and pretend they aren't punishable in some way when they are.

2-5%? What game are you playing? I can easily tack on like 10-15% easily with most characters, and that counts the hit+the projectile. alot of attacks hit for 7-10% anyways

No they don't. It depends on the game. Stop talking in absolutely with absolutely no basis in reality.

why Should I? you do it constantly

In 99% of all cases, you cannot follow up a move with another without the opponent having an easy time escaping it. No matter how much you claim otherwise without any proof to back it up.

Again, you talk like they can just teleport around the stage without lag or something wierd.

they can't run for ever, and running away is even punishable.

Bla bla bla.

I give you: Yuna speak!!

And? At least Melee wasn't as broken as this. And there aren't one jillion users running around hailing Brawl as the pinnacle of balance (which, for each passing day, is being proven more and more false).

/your opinion

You saying something works =/= Something working

Saying something doesn't work =/= something not working (see what i did there?)

Not everyone can cancel anything by jumping and projectiling. Jumping also requires you to, you know, jump, which wastes valuable frames, during which your opponent will have more time to DI, aircontrol and airdodge out of the way.

Seriously, Koga. What game are you playing? Have you even tested some of these outlandish "combos" or "yomis" or whatever of yours out on good people? Have you even tested them out against bad people? You come up with all kinds of scenarios that are shot down time and again but you keep coming back repeating "But I'm right just because!" without being able to back it up using anything but your own opinion.

no acctually that's you

You talk like you're opponent can infinately do everything all the time, well guess what they can't.

Half the things you say don't even happen like that anyways. Even if does take some frames to jump, oh no i guess that means that i can't do anything because i jumped.

so they DI and aircontrol away, so what? that still means they have to deal with my fireball in their face. How does that change it?

sure they can do plenty of things but they can only do ONE thing at a time.


sure, you might like to play laggy characters or use laggy moves, but don't base all your "Facts" on one or two c haracters you like to play


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyBAulntQno&feature=user

Watch this video, it uses Peach just for you yuna. And don't even say the fox is bad, that's Mike HAZE


what's the point? the whole video that peach is never once at a disadvantage just because she's on the offensive. *prepares for yuna's BS*

 

[ColinJF]

Let's see... off the top of my head, the following characters have projectiles that are fast enough to actually be used to combo:
* Falco
* Fox
* Wolf
* Pit (though less effective than the above 3)

All of these lag so much that if they hit, you cannot continue the combo, nor can you shoot and then jump in and approach if they airdodge (that is if they shoot out the projectile after successfully launching an opponent with an attack).

And what a wonderful combo you did! One move into a projectile... which doesn't kill (all KO-projectiles are too slow and are easily dodged).

Ness can combo the tail of pk thunder into pk thunder 2, which kills at very low damage. This is a real combo in the sense that if the tail hits then the pk thunder 2 hit is inescapable.

 

[Yuna]

If i get a hit on my opponent, they go DI'ing away like a mad man and i jump and throw a projectile (Oh and BTW, you can't keep your running momentum but you can move yourself in the air with the control stick)

Now they have some options, say they chose to shield it. I grab them.

I'm sorry, what?

You hit your opponent as Mario, you then use his Fire Ball and expect them to shield it and then just stand there like a mofo while you run up to them and grab them?! What kind of players are you playing and can I moneymatch them for 5000 dollars?

It is also not a combo, still.

See how you react to what your opponent does? There's nothing wrong with that description except mis-execution by the player.

Or he could be smart and simply swat the fireball away and then hit you as you dash up to him. See how 99% of all of the crap you claim works won't work on anyone with a brain?

 

[Yuna]

Ness can combo the tail of pk thunder into pk thunder 2, which kills at very low damage. This is a real combo in the sense that if the tail hits then the pk thunder 2 hit is inescapable.

Not from a move. He can't launch someone and PK Thunder them... at least not as a combo.

 

[Koga]

I'm sorry, what?

You hit your opponent as Mario, you then use his Fire Ball and expect them to shield it and then just stand there like a mofo while you run up to them and grab them?! What kind of players are you playing and can I moneymatch them for 5000 dollars?

It is also not a combo, still.


Or he could be smart and simply swat the fireball away and then hit you as you dash up to him. See how 99% of all of the crap you claim works won't work on anyone with a brain?

I didn't expect them to shield, i said if they shielded that's what i'd do, if they jumped out of the way i'd do something different. and no where did i say that was a combo.

STRAWMAN

How much time do they really have between the fireball hitting their shield and me grabbing? like .5 seconds maybe? Sure if i'm halfway accross the stage that wont work but you have to be within a foxtrot lenght of them most of the time. If they drop their shield the fireball will hit them, if they powershield i still have time to grab them.


and okay they swat it away and i smack them in the face with a nair. No matter what action they take you can still punish it. there's some time when they jab a fireball where they're vunerable. It's not like they can just jab and the do whatever instantly.

see how 99% of your crap is exaggerated?
oh, and i editied my other post

 

[Zankoku]

I didn't expect them to shield, i said if they shielded that's what i'd do, if they jumped out of the way i'd do something different. and no where did i say that was a combo.

STRAWMAN

Thread Title: "Combos in Brawl? My opinion/idea"
You didn't say it's a combo, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not, and the fact that it's not a combo is relevant to this thread.

How much time do they really have between the fireball hitting their shield and me grabbing? like .5 seconds maybe? Sure if i'm halfway accross the stage that wont work but you have to be within a foxtrot lenght of them most of the time. If they drop their shield the fireball will hit them, if they powershield i still have time to grab them.

If you're running at me, I have several choices on prediction, and a few less on reaction. I can predict you're about to dash attack/grab/running usmash, all of which are susceptible to a spotdodge but the spotdodge is punishable by a nair or shield dsmash, which in turn can easily be shielded. Or I can play on reaction and either roll away/behind you when I notice an action (you can't alter your running momentum easily in Brawl) and everything's back to a neutral situation.

and okay they swat it away and i smack them in the face with a nair. No matter what action they take you can still punish it. there's some time when they jab a fireball where they're vunerable. It's not like they can just jab and the do whatever instantly.

see how 99% of your crap is exaggerated?
oh, and i editied my other post

Swatting away a fireball with a jab is the fastest non-shield thing you can do to negate it. Running up to grab is possibly one of the worst ideas here because 1. grab range isn't very good and 2. canceling anything with a jab tends to reset your animation, meaning yes, they can do whatever almost instantly.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I didn't expect them to shield, i said if they shielded that's what i'd do, if they jumped out of the way i'd do something different. and no where did i say that was a combo.

STRAWMAN

How much time do they really have between the fireball hitting their shield and me grabbing? like .5 seconds maybe? Sure if i'm halfway accross the stage that wont work but you have to be within a foxtrot lenght of them most of the time. If they drop their shield the fireball will hit them, if they powershield i still have time to grab them.


and okay they swat it away and i smack them in the face with a nair. No matter what action they take you can still punish it. there's some time when they jab a fireball where they're vunerable. It's not like they can just jab and the do whatever instantly.

see how 99% of your crap is exaggerated?
oh, and i editied my other post

Of course it's not an instant reaction, but neither is yours. The point is that they can get out of there faster than you can get over there, be it from rolling, jumping back, or just running back. It's just not a feasible way to combo. It isn't as though we haven't been trying to ourselves you know.

edit: I just noticed the "it's not a combo" part. But then what point are you trying to make? You just can't follow up a projectile with anything, shielding/rolling back is just too fast.
Can you name any character that would be capable of doing what you described?

 

[Koga]

Thread Title: "Combos in Brawl? My opinion/idea"
You didn't say it's a combo, but that doesn't change the fact that it's not, and the fact that it's not a combo is relevant to this thread.


If you're running at me, I have several choices on prediction, and a few less on reaction. I can predict you're about to dash attack/grab/running usmash, all of which are susceptible to a spotdodge but the spotdodge is punishable by a nair or shield dsmash, which in turn can easily be shielded. Or I can play on reaction and either roll away/behind you when I notice an action (you can't alter your running momentum easily in Brawl) and everything's back to a neutral situation.



Swatting away a fireball with a jab is the fastest non-shield thing you can do to negate it. Running up to grab is possibly one of the worst ideas here because 1. grab range isn't very good and 2. canceling anything with a jab tends to reset your animation, meaning yes, they can do whatever almost instantly.

What everybody replying to me isn't getting is that there's still ways to punish everything your opponent does.

If i say this is one thing that could happen, you guys go spout about how that's can't happen because other things could happen. Well yeah, but if they reacted differently to my fireball than a shield then i would take a different course of action. Is it that hard to figure out?

there is no right way to attack/followup/approach your opponent every time, you have to read your opponents reactions and punish accordingly

if they swat my fireball away that means there's three or more other fireballs coming right at them, they can't swat all those away before my nair smacks them in the face.

If they roll then i'll dash attack. There is some lag on coming out of a roll with everyone so don't say there isn't.

If they jump then i can Uair or Nair if i space properly, if not then i can Cape or just throw more fireballs untill i see an opening.


Basically: yes they can do all kinds of things in response to projectiles, but there will be an opening somewhere and projectiles are the way in which you pressure and opening.


P.S.
You do keep your running momentum while jumping, i tested it last night, Heavier characters keep less than lighter ones but you still keep your running momentum when you jump.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not sure why the guy who's trying to not get hit by you has to go first. But whatever, clearly they're always trying to predict your attack instead of simply react to it, so I can't argue against that.

And your interpretation of keeping running momentum is wrong. Weight has nothing to do with it, maximum aerial horizontal movement has everything to do with it. Don't believe me? Check out Sheik jumping from a run, then check out Sheik jumping from a walk. Do the same with Wario. Guess which one has better horizontal movement in the air?

 

[Koga]

I'm not sure why the guy who's trying to not get hit by you has to go first. But whatever, clearly they're always trying to predict your attack instead of simply react to it, so I can't argue against that.

And your interpretation of keeping running momentum is wrong. Weight has nothing to do with it, maximum aerial horizontal movement has everything to do with it. Don't believe me? Check out Sheik jumping from a run, then check out Sheik jumping from a walk. Do the same with Wario. Guess which one has better horizontal movement in the air?

I'm not sure i understand what the first part of this post means exactly.

From what i understand you're saying that they should just be reacting instead of predicting?(my opponent that is)

If that's the case then yeah they are reacting. If i throw a projectile that has any hitstun at all (you know, not fox's lazers). they can't just stand there and take it, they have to do something and whatever that something is there's a way the attacker can punish that (even if its simply more projectiles until theres an openning).



Now yes, i probably did misinterpret the whole running momentum thing; however, my real point is that you can advance in the air while taking other actions.

 

[Yuna]

Koga, most of the time, there isn't a way to punish your opponent. Sure, it might be possible at, like, 10-20% to always combo off a certain move depending on character (some moves let you combo for longer than that). But past 30-40%, chances are, your opponent has to screw up monumentally to get comboed because of the new game engine and DI.

It will be essentially impossible. It'd require your opponent to pretty much just stand around doing nothing while you run up to him and combo him since he's got tons of options for retaliation.

Most projectiles in the game have so little hitstun now you have to be at point blank range when they hit to do anything afterwards that'll land guaranteed or even quasi-guaranteed or even at all because you still lag from shooting/throwing the projectile.

You can't magically projectile someone and then in one frame Fsmash them.

Koga, have you played the game?

 

[Koga]

Koga, most of the time, there isn't a way to punish your opponent. Sure, it might be possible at, like, 10-20% to always combo off a certain move depending on character (some moves let you combo for longer than that). But past 30-40%, chances are, your opponent has to screw up monumentally to get comboed because of the new game engine and DI.

It will be essentially impossible. It'd require your opponent to pretty much just stand around doing nothing while you run up to him and combo him since he's got tons of options for retaliation.

Most projectiles in the game have so little hitstun now you have to be at point blank range when they hit to do anything afterwards that'll land guaranteed or even quasi-guaranteed or even at all because you still lag from shooting/throwing the projectile.

You can't magically projectile someone and then in one frame Fsmash them.

Koga, have you played the game?

Yes i play the game everyday.

Now on to your points. Read the OP it says that while traditional combo's aren't possible that there is still a way to continue your attack on your oponnent.


Now, you're still assuming i'm on the other side of the stage while doing this. No, if i'm on the other side of the stage then i'll throw out alot of fireballs and run in behind those.

I don't have to f smash them one frame after the fireball hits, i usually run up and throw a fireball within one foxtrot of my opponent leaving enough time if it hits to hit them in some way.

sure the hit stun isn't much but the hitstun+whatever they try to do after> me running up and hitting them.

now yes at the middle % its pretty much get a hit and then spam projectiles and you repeat that untill you get higher %. Yes it can be a bit campy but that's not a problem. Once you get them to about 60% or so you can knock them far enough to start an edgeguard game.

They can't just roll away from some fireballs and spotdoge one frame later.

 

[Yuna]

All I'm see is more bovine manure.

99% of all of the things you say require the opponent to make huge mistakes. Most of the time, none of the stuff you're presenting will work. People will DI + 2nd jump + hit you so it won't work! How many times must I say this?!

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, it's possible to hit people over and over. No, it's never actually a combo.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FaQET1dA2I8

All I do is hit people over and over. But I don't call it a combo.

 

[LavisFiend]

3506970579504 times.

Best combo in the game though: unplug controller into a SH fair combo. =P

 

[R!S3]

In 99% of all cases, you cannot follow up a move with another without the opponent having an easy time escaping it. No matter how much you claim otherwise without any proof to back it up.

I believe you defined exactly what a "combo" is...(see previous posts)

King DeDeDe...IC's...Falco...Marth...Ness...Lucas...Sonic...Ike...and all of the jab lock characters...and many more

according to your definition of a combo...all of these characters can combo via various chains and locks...

 

[Yuna]

I didn't define what a combo is. You cannot define what a combo is. The world has already defined it. "My" definition just happens to be the correct one because I'm using the word right.

 

[R!S3]

I didn't define what a combo is. You cannot define what a combo is. The world has already defined it. "My" definition just happens to be the correct one because I'm using the word right.

in any case...

according to the international fighting game communities of the world

brawl is full of "combos"

i cannot see how combos are not in brawl...considering half the cast can execute some form of inescapable hit...