Getting past Falco's lasers and defending against his approach

[Emblem Lord]

The topic of this thread is an area of difficulty for many Marth players. How exactly are you supposed to get past all those lasers? And how are you supposed to deal with his deadly approach? After speaking with Cactuar, Mew2king, and Lord Knight I have compiled a list of tactics to use in order to fight against Falco's onslaught. This thread is to spread knowledge, share ideas and spark intelligent discussion among the Marth community. I tried to post the most reliable methods of dealing with Falco's lasers/approach as well as the most common methods. I also posted a few tricks that many players may not have even considered.


1) Dash Attack

Probably the first method Marth players learn in order to combat Falco's use of lasers. The dash attack animation has Marth ducking very low to the ground as he slashes. Good against Falco's that don't shoot low lasers or don't shoot low lasers that much.

2) Use Platforms

Another way of dealing with lasers that all players discover early on. This method is quite obvious, but still effective. Marth uses the platforms to avoid lasers while closing the distance betwen Falco and himself. Use wavelanding to speed Marth's movement on the platforms. And make sure to watch Falco carefully so you can react if he tries to attack you.

3) Power Shielding

There seems to be quite a bit of controversy over this technique. Some question it's viability, saying it's too difficult to do consistently so it shouldn't be relied on too much. Others argue that it's not all that difficult to become proficient at and it's the best way to deal with lasers. Personally I think that unless you can power shield 6 out of 10 lasers that are shot at you, then you shouldn't make a big deal about power shielding. Theoretically speaking, someone who mastered this technique could completely shut down Falco's approach. To perform this technique simply hit L or R the moment the laser would strike your body and it will be reflected back at Falco, if you did it correctly. Still, don't get cocky if you did power shield correctly. Remember Falco can shine his own laser or power shield it right back. He could even just take the hit and go right back to lasering. So take advantage of a power shield if you pull it off.

4) Jumping over lasers

A somewhat risky approach because Marth is vulnerable while in the air. Marth must be very careful and watch Falco's movements while doing this. You'll usually want to come down with a fair. Most Falco's will try to roll away so they can shoot more lasers. Predict this and chase him down with a grab or a dash attack. Then chain throw or combo from there. Remember that if they shield the fair, Marth has his usual shield trap guessing games that I discussed in my Approaching with Marth thread.

5) Dash into Shield

This is a nice surprise tactic. Use it if Falco is getting up from the ground or there is a little distance between the two of you. The method is to dash up to Falco and then put up your shield right in his face. If he shot a laser, it will more then likely be power shielded and you can get a grab. If nothing else they may be caught off guard by Marth suddenly getting in thier face. If not you can always roll away.

6) Wavedash from Shield

A more defensive technique used to close the distance between Marth and Falco. You shield, JC the shield and then wavedash. From there you can shield again or do w/e. But if you don't shield again you will more then likely take a hit from another laser.

7) Shield Grab

Marth players learn very early that trying to shield grab Falco would just get them comboed across the stage. Even though it is very risky, the reward is great if you can pull it off. You just have to know what you're doing and what type of Falco you are playing against. If you are playing against a pillar happy Falco then you really shouldn't attempt a shield grab. If you are facing a Falco that tries to grab after lasering, dairing, or shining then you can attempt a shield grab. Watch the Falco closely so you know when it's the best time to grab. Anytime Falco tries to grab after a move, a shield grab will come out faster, but only if you can predict him correctly. You can also grab Falco after he does a Dair that hits your shield as he is rising while short hopping. This leaves him more vulnerable.

8) JC SH Fair out of Shield

Jump Cancel Short Hop Fair out of Shield. One of the more reliable strategies. While falco is approaching with lasers, jump out of your shield with a short hop and Fair him. You should time your jump so that it comes out the moment his laser touches your shield so your attack is less likely to be interrupted by his. If he takes the hit come down with another Fair. Then you can go into Marth's shield trap guessing games if he shielded. If he took the hit then you get a free grab.

9) Counter

Marth has the ability to counter Falco's lasers. This tactic really isn't hard to utilize and it's a good way to catch Falco off guard. When Falco approaches with lasers, counter them when he is in range. then you can tech chase or do a dash into shield. Marth can also JC counter out of his shield. He can dash in counter as well.

10) Light Shielding

This is a strategy I don't see enough of. When someone light shields and they are attacked, they will recieve more knock back and slide along the ground. How far they slide depends on how light the shield is. This gives Marth another way to get out of pillaring. And thanks to his great range you don't have to really worry about how far he slides. If Falco hits your light shield with a Dair or a shine, Marth will slide away. You should immediately grab, JC fair or JC nair. If you feel like you have slid too far then just wavedash form your shield into a grab. Ideally you want to slide just enough so you can grab Falco without being in danger of getting hit by a Dair or a shine. If you have to wavedash from your shield it gives Falco more time to react. One trick you can try is to wave dash out of a light shield and then counter. This is perfect if he was going to attack as you wavedashed from your light shield.

11) Rolling

A basic effective maneuver. Roll out of your shield when Falco approaches with lasers or tries to pillar your shield. If you roll behind him you can put up your shield and use Marth's shield techniques. You could also try countering as soon as you get out of the roll if Falco is close enough and he is pressuring you.


As you can see Marth has quite a few ways of dealing with the bird that everyone hates. Remember to mix it up and stay unpredictable. Watch Falco carefully and capitalize on his patterns and mistakes. Please feel free to comment on anything or bring up other ways of dealing with Falco's approach.

So everyone, please discuss and share your thoughts.

 

[metroid1117]

Another great post... I used to think that Falco's SHL wasn't too much of a pain in the butt, but then my friend picked him up x_x. I'll be sure to try these on him next time.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Great idea, but as far for a falco coming down from above, I use the up-tilt and it cuts through his dair. Thats really only thing I had going for me in a falco matchup besides the chainthrow.

 

[darkshy]

This is actually great time. I versed an Falco who used advanced techs and I had no idea how to get past him so thanks for this!

 

[RT]

People don't try powershielding because it is kind of hard to pull of consistenly, but it really does help and should be used a little bit more. You just have to practice until you can either see the frame, or can do it automatically without even thinking about it. If you can powershield a laser when you're right next to Falco, you can instanly grab him for a set up assuming you're quick enough. Most Falcos don't shine it back because they're caught off guard, so it should work most of the time. But this is just my opinion...

Al the other suggestions are great.

 

[Velox]

You don't even have 2 of the best ways to get around lasers.

I got both of these from NEO while watching him play the Flordia Falcos at PAWS.

The first one is wavedash backwards out of your shield and f-smash the Falco if he is mindlessly approaching you. If the Falco doesn't overshoot the f-smash will tip (and kill), which will scare the f*** out of the Falco. I've seen Tink do this extensivly recently, but it's definatly a NEO origional.

Number 2 is an extremly effective tactic, taking the lasers right to the face, just get hit by them and then immediatly jab/u-tilt/etc. This is fast enough to knock the Falco out of pretty much anything, unless the are in a situation where they can immediatly jab/shine after the laser. Otherwise, if they are following up with a d-air/dash into a grab you can hit them right out of it, which will take them by suprise, you can follow up with a grab, etc. This is a good thing to keep in mind if you just take a laser to the face randomly during the match, just jab right after getting hit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Both of those are very risky. And they don't always work. The ones I posted are more reliable. But I'll post them, because I do use them on occasion.

But I wouldn't say they are the best ways of dealing with his lasers.

 

[Silver Sytos]

Btw, did Neo quit smash? I know he has a phenomenal Marth and the best Roy.

 

[Brightside6382]

Just wanted to point out a couple of things about the approaches.

2) I would highly recommend if approaching with platforms to spend VERY little time on them. Marth is a terrible top-bottom character and can be easily caught on the platforms.

3) PS'ing is very important and should have much more importance put upon it. Also you should touch more on the ability to PS while moving instead of just standing. Running PS'd laser -> Grab is TO good

4) Full jumps I would say are one of Marth's better approaches against Falco. It allows him to cover the distance fast and safely and gives a good angle of attack on landing. Just be careful not to over-do the jump, spacing everything is important.

9) Meh never liked the counter. The risk never seems to be worth the reward so I prefer to stay away from it.

10) Light shielding sounds nice, I think I'll try it out some time. One thing I would suggest, instead of being aggressive out of the shield it might be better to get defensive and get away from the Falco.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brightside: I mentioned that Marth can do a dash into a shield to power shield. I listed it as another strategy. I don't think PSing is godly though so I see no need to hype it up. Alot of good Marths don't use it and then deal with lasers just fine. I mentioned it though because it is useful. But I don't think it deserves to be hyped up too much.

BTW counter is useful and I have seen high level Marths use it quite a bit.

As for Marth in platforms, well I thought that was a given for Marth not to hang around on them too much. Really you shouldn't hang around too much on platforms with any character, while someone is below you on the ground.

Velox: Wavedashin out of shield for a tipper is good, but dangerous. It works better with light shielding, because other wise you might get hit by his shine or his dair as you JC your shield.

The second tactic is EXTREMELY risky. Not just any Marth should really attempt it. And it requires luck IMO too. It is all too easy for Falco's attacks to beat out Marth's at very close range. This tactic would only work on a Falco that wasn't on the level of the Marth he was playing IMO. Mew2king actually does this tactic. And even he told me that he feels as though he just gets lucky when he tries to attack Falcos that are approaching him.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Very good list, too many people think falco utterly rules marth.

 

[Cactuar]

I mean. Grab more. Swing your sword. You should do fine.

 

[shadydentist]

Speaking of the counter, I immediately thought of PC Chris vs Ken at MLG Dallas. Ken used a ridiculous amount of counters to punish PC Chris when he got too aggressive, and it worked for a while. By the end, though, PC was beginning to wait for them... take from that what you will.

I also like wavelanding on platforms. Marth's aerial mobility isn't the greatest, and his wavedash is great, so its a nice way to move over the lasers.

A question of shieldgrabbing: Maybe its just something about the falcos that I play, but I've usually found it to be safer to grab a pillaring falco after the shine, instead of after the dair. Although I guess the falco could shine again instead of dair... Anyways, thats just a general thing I've done.

 

[Reik]

Number 9 is the most annoying thing ever for an aggressive Falco. Really.

When Marths use counter I have to actually think when I play. Totally unfair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why are you in my thread Reik? Trying to learn all my Marth knowledge so you can come up with counter strats and share it with the Falco community?

lol.

<3 Reik.

So what do you think man. Would any of these other ones be good? What do you suggest? I would love to hear the opinion of a very good high level Falco.

 

[trademark0013]

i really dont see #4 as that risky. since marths sword is a disjointed hitbox, if u atk right, u can smash ur way thru the lasers.

personally, playing against joel so **** much, i learned the best way to fght laser spamming falcos is "gettting in their ***" (excuse the lack of technical terminology). if u attack them head on before they have a chance to shoot anything, they feel overpowered. not sure how this works against really good falcos, but it works against decent > good ones. i find this method of attacking isnt the most secure and comes off as reckless, but its been effective for me, and i'm sure a better marth player than me can add something to it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

4 is risky because Falco jumps so friggin high that he can swat Marth out of the air and his attacks come out faster. Plus Falco could just run away and then rush him with lasers after he lands. Plus if Marth uses both jumps and is hit out of the air and off the stage Falco will probably edge guard him to death.

That's why it's risky.

 

[trademark0013]

dont most falcos do that? (the run away part). and cant u chase them as the run and smack em with something, usually a dash attack, fair, or nair?

 

[Emblem Lord]

A smart Falco will start running as Marth comes down and then start shooting as soon as he lands. Marth may not always be able to get to him in time. But there are ways of dealing with that.

The most important thing to remember is that Marth players have options and you shouldn't lock yourself into one method of dealing with Falco's approach because then you'll just get predictable.

 

[trademark0013]

so tru... that where mindgamez come in... which i suck at and dont have enough technical skill to ignore the need for them.

back to shady dentists ?. shield grabbing seems pretty efective. although it can get predicted and they will start to grab u. ur thoughts?

 

[Emblem Lord]

As long as you predict when Falco will grab, your shield grab will beat his out. If anything they will start shining more to avoid getting shield grabbed. When that happens you could roll more, use light shield tactics, or wavedash out of your shield and smash.

 

[trademark0013]

hm.. good point. o well. eyes closing...enough hijacking threads. i'll bother u tomorrow. nice guide. pz out

 

[Reik]

So what do you think man. Would any of these other ones be good? What do you suggest? I would love to hear the opinion of a very good high level Falco

First, I'd like to ask if you have #1 written correctly. Don't you mean that dash attack is good against Falcos that don't shoot low lasers?

Next, you shouldn't rely on shieldgrabbing at all. Falco players love to eat shields. If you let a Falco get close enough to shine your shield, you have failed. Keep Falco out with counters and F-airs out of shield until you can land a grab. Btw here's the right way to use counter: Don't counter the Falco's aerial. Counter his approaching laser (the one right before he tries to shffl/grab/shine). You'll have to predict the Falco's approach to do this but when you do the Falco can't do anything.

That technique where you take a laser in order to jab/u-tilt/f-tilt is pretty risky. I know it worked for NEO and for Ken sometimes in the Bombsoldier videos but whenever M2K tried it against me I saw it coming a mile away for some reason and just laser spammed him until he stopped. >.>

There is one thing Cactuar does though that usually screws me up. Let's say I'm going to do a standing laser to a dashing laser. Cactuar will dash into the first laser on purpose to throw off my spacing and then grab me out of the air before the 2nd. Really any dashing or WD out of shield you can do to throw Falco's spacing off (either backwards or forward) is good even if you have to eat a laser. It's probably safer than U-tilting too. Sorry to give away your tricks, Cactuar.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think relying too much on keeping Falco from your shield would lend itself to predictability. Plus those light shield techniques catch people off guard ALOT.

Shield grabbing does have it's place. Actually I would say it's viable agianst a Falco like you because you grab. Actually you grab ALOT. You grab more then any Falco I have ver seen.

Seriously. But it's a good thing. So many Falcos will see a shield and just start attacking it, when they could just grab. Anyway, like I said before shield grabbing is very risky and I have seen high level Marths do it. I would never spam it nor would I suggest anyone to spam it.

As for countering his aerials, well I would think it was obvious that Marth's goal should be to counter Falco's laser, but I see no reason why he can't counter Falco's aerial if Falco has gotten predictable, but w/e. It doesn't matter to me that much. Like I said, when I use counter I aim to counter the lasers.

Anything more you want to say Reik.

Like how to say your name for example?

lol.

And yes, I agree that trying to grab or attack between lasers is risky as hell and shouldn't be attempted by anyone, but the most elite of Marth players.

 

[Cactuar]

There is one thing Cactuar does though that usually screws me up. Let's say I'm going to do a standing laser to a dashing laser. Cactuar will dash into the first laser on purpose to throw off my spacing and then grab me out of the air before the 2nd. Really any dashing or WD out of shield you can do to throw Falco's spacing off (either backwards or forward) is good even if you have to eat a laser. It's probably safer than U-tilting too. Sorry to give away your tricks, Cactuar.

Nooooooooooooo...

My vs Falco tricksies! Revealed to the world!

It's cool. 999/1000 Marth players wouldn't be able to utilize it effectively anyway.

<3

(come play me)

 

[Oskurito]

This is like a guide to deal with falco's aproach. Good info

 

[technomancer]

6) Wavedash from Shield

A more defensive technique used to close the distance between Marth and Falco. You shield, JC the shield and then wavedash. From there you can shield again or do w/e. But if you don't shield again you will more then likely take a hit from another laser.

This is the best way to do it by far. Remember your pokes (jab, ftilt) to throw him off, and then you can take over the match pretty easily. Wavedash out of shield, chaingrab, and poke effectively and Marth has the advantage in the matchup.

(come play me)

brt

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

wooooo hoooo I know Cactuar's secret!!!!1

There isn't much to add about approaching falco. I would say the biggest thing for most marths is not to sit in the shield and let falco pounce on marth like a cat on a dog. Letting falco dair or nair marth = death. Wavedash out of shield, roll, or do whatever it takes to stop getting combod.

 

[Lesheik]

No guide can get better than this.

 

[Silver Sytos]

If, for example, you dashed toward a falco, jc grabbed him while he side dodged, would there be enough time for you to grab him again?

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. He would shine right after the spot dodge. Just DI away and tech his dair if it connects.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Too good for the second page.

Bumpage.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I agree, it would be such a waste.

 

[Silver Sytos]

Allright, i was watching a Azen v. PC match and somehow Azen spaced his grab well enough that when he grabbed and pc spot dodged, he grabbed again and got him in his shine, after the shine's hit frames. o.o

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Silver sytos, this is not the marth question and answer thread, that question belongs there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Silver styos: What exactly are you trying to get at here? That's just good spacing that allows Marth to grab Falco after the hit frames of his shine. Nothing special.

 

[psyche_haha]

o_o...has anyone ever just wavedashed onto the ledge and waited till the falco came to you? at least you could get back on and manipulate space to actually FIGHT him instead of trying to get around those annoying lasers

 

[Emblem Lord]

Messing around on the edge isn't advised when fighting Falco. His edgeguarding is good and you most likely be spiked.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

lol...
Marth: "I've got a new tactic against falco!" *Hangs on edge*
*Falco walks to edge and shuffles a d-air, marth gets spiked*
Marth: "oh noes..."

sorry, just that played out in my mind.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Actually, there are invincibility frames even when marth jumps up each time to grab the ledge, so it's impossible to get spiked right here if marth keeps jumping and grabbing the ledge. It also gives a small period of time allowing marth to wavedash onto the stage, which I think is why Mew2King has perfected the wavedash onto the stage, so he can get back during marth dittos more easily and versus any character. You'll notice in his matches against PC Chris's falco at Evo that M2K will wait for PC's invincibility frames to expend while hanging on the ledge (and jumping and re-grabbing the ledge). He was never punished for it. However, M2K is the only marth I've seen who can pull off the wavedash onto the stage with such speed and precision. I wouldn't recommend any other non-pro marth to do that, although to be honest I'm working on perfecting the wavedash onto stage to a similar degree as M2K (and I'm not a pro). I have nothing better to do with no one to play, and it is quite flashy and useful =)