[#10] Zelda MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Bahamut777]

Discuss...

 

[Dumbfire]

Getting that pic..

 

[Exalted]

Her Dtilt ***** everything. Watch out for it. Many of her attacks also have disjointed hitboxes. If you can get her far enough offstage her abysmal recovery won't do her any good. Unlike Sheik, the second explosion caused by her UpB actually damages you, just so you know. Nayru's Love can be annoying as it breaks through many attacks. Din's Fire is predictable, but has huge range and blast radius.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This matchup is boring as hell, but manageable. Basically you're spacing (D-tilt) all day and trying to wait until you have her in a position where she's vulnerable to followups. Outright approaching her is usually a bad idea since her walls are too strong. Her D-tilt unfortunately is better than yours, and her D-smash is a brutal gimp tool.

 

[Ingoro]

Zelda player perspective: Get us up in the air, punish the bad hitbox of dair but don't get to close to prevent a sweetspotted dair. Punish our recovery once you learn the timing of Farore's wind you can punish. it with anything. Up close you have to watch out for d-tilt locks and dsmashes.To proper approach zelda, watch out for her Fsmash since it stops your side B and has a long hitbox.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Verm has loads of knowledge in this MU. He's played myself and Riot. I'd post more but I'm in class lol.

 

[Exalted]

Speaking of Verm, he rarely posts nowadays besides Gannon-Banning stuff.
Lawl.

 

[Vermanubis]

Speaking of Verm, he rarely posts nowadays besides Gannon-Banning stuff.
Lawl.

Come next week I'll have completed most of my course workloads. We have a system that lets us know of our assignments ahead of time, so I've been busting my *** to get everything done so I can be pretty much totally free aside from class seat time. So, by next week I'll be able to post as usual.

BEST ZELDA

ALSO EDDDDD

Yeah. Ed's right. I can safely say I have some of the most concretized knowledge on the Zelda MU thanks to fighting Ed here and Riot. It's definitely one of my least favorite MUs, only because after playing these two, I've experienced the zenith of Zelda's metagame, which is EXTREMELY defensive. Which, as we all know, Ganon... DESPISES.

Aside from the general bad stuff that is universal for Ganon (being outranged, etc.), Zelda's biggest boon is the fact that she has THE safest "personal bubble" in the game. If the Zelda doesn't make a habit of approaching, you'll be fighting off what would otherwise be nothing more than bait: Din's fire. So eventually you will have to approach, and when you do, Zelda's tilts and smashes are, at least for Ganon, nearly unpunishable and OWN just about everything he can do.

Good things do exist though. Though, I wouldn't call them "good" so much as I would "not bad." Zelda has a pretty rough time killing Ganon with anything aside from Lightning Kicks (though, against good Zeldas, the sourspots are harder for them to land than the sweetspot), she can't recover safely... at all. She's basically one of the hardest characters for Ganon to get in on, but like most people with impenetrable defenses, once its been broken, they're in a really bad position; splinter skills ftmfw.

As if her stupid defense wasn't strong enough, her long-*** rolls make her incredibly tough to tech-chase or punish. So, the primary thing to be relied on in this MU is to get Zelda to one side of the stage and kind of corner herself (which will happen inevitably, since a competent Zelda would die sooner than approach [which is ironically what would happen anyway if she did]) and remain with her roll distance. This makes you too close to use Din's, far enough to punish any rolls and far enough to avoid smash spam. Since she's now near the ledge, most of your moves, even on shield, are safe, since Ganon does have considerable shield knockback on stuff like DAir and FAir.

Zelda isn't truly dangerous enough by herself to neccesitate playing like this, but this IS the safest way, and makes it at least a little bit easier. Given corners aren't good for Zelda, pick stages with non-solid platforms, such as Delfino. Of course, there are exceptions to this (never take Zelda to Halberd; that top platform is abpeoi46j2ntb*headdesk*). But Delfino is ideal because of the tremendous recovery pressure Zelda faces if she does not sweetspot the ledge when taken offstage.

I give it 65:35 in Zelda's favor.

 

[Exalted]

Murder first, talk later - Good mindset there, Verm.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

You forget Uair on the attempt to punish aerial wizkick and also Dmash that sends at really bad angles. I'll write more later for sure.

 

[Fuujin]

long post

I stopped reading after the part where you said Ganondorf has to approach...
It's Zelda, she can't force anyone to approach.
Before any of you start to give a ratio for this match up, you guys need to get caught up to the future.
This isn't 2008, Zelda isn't mid tier, shes second worse (arguably just as bad as Ganondorf himself), a horrible character.
I can't tell you how many people are ignorant of how bad she is, this last weekend at a tournament I had someone tell me she beats IC's :/.

Now that we have it clear that Zelda sucks I'll give my input on the MU.
First of all about the being "forced to approach", next time she throws Dins Fire at you try U air.
I'm serious, learn the timing and U air through it.
About her being unpublishable, Ganon can punish side smash if he stands just outside of it's range with his side b.
I'm not sure why I even mention that part...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w LOL SIDESMASH SO BROKEN CAN'T GET PAST IT!!!
Seriously Ganon mains, lrn2DI (Mash up on your control and C stick when she hits you) it's very easy to perfect this, if you incorporate the c stick it should pretty much never hit you.
I'm pretty sure you can actually punish her for hitting with it, DI behind her and b air(not sure if this works with Ganondorf though, last tournament during friendlies someone DI'd out of it and landed a sweetspotted back air with Pit while she was still using the move).
If Zelda throws out U smash and you're on the ground, shield and grab ,depending on which way shes facing you should have enough time to shield, she can't just throw it out randomly and get unpunished..
D smash is the only Smash that should actually give you trouble, unless you know how to tech that is.
Lrn2 DI downward and tech when she d smashes you and you won't be dieing from it unless you're near a ledge it really cant kill you till the 200s.
D tilt is most likely the only move to give you some trouble because it acts as a poke and can combo into itself
If the Zelda goes for the tilt lock just DI out of it, usually I tilt lock 2 or 3 times then go for the grab.
You don't really have anything to fear if you get grabbed, her throws are mediocre.
Watch out for ledge canceling tricks they only really work if you don't know they're coming.
Zelda has NO approach, basically this is sort of like Zelda dittos, whichever Zelda approaches loses.
Same with Ganondorf, If you manage to get the percent lead what's Zelda gonna do?
Some might jump at you spamming her lightning kicks, if you get hit with those like that it's completely your fault unless you trip.
Some might jump at you with N-air.
Either way it's unsafe and neither should work.
Her grab comes out in twice as many frames as a normal grab and you should be able to predict it coming unless it's from a d tilt.
If you manage to be winning percent wise just sit back, wait for her to come to you and punish.
She might attempt to spam Din's Fire but once you start U-airing it she's going to be forced to approach.
Zelda's aerial game < Ganondorf's aerial game.
Once you manage to choke her, D tilt and have fun with her in the air.
Learn to punish the **** out of her recovery, start up AND ending lag.

If Zelda has the percentage lead it may be a little easier for her to keep Ganondorf away just because she's slightly faster.
Don't approach her from the air, get close enough to her side smash and punish the ending of it with side b, or better yet like I mentioned earlier get hit by it(you take like 2-3 damage if you escape it), DI out and behind her and punish it.
Take her to Lylat, Delfino, Brinstar, PS2.
It's very hard for her to sweet spot the ledge on any of these stages so she'll be forced to land on stage, this is where Ganon's incredible strength comes in.
You predict her recovery right(not hard to do considering she has to fall straight down) and you can end up killing her at like 60.
Learn the match up and it's 50-50 possibly 55-45 in Zelda's favor.
Yes I know you must think I'm crazy for giving this an even number but you really need to stop overrating Zelda, she's just about as bad as Ganondorf.

The Zelda boards will probably come here telling you its 35-65 like Verm, but they still think she counters/goes even with Dedede so I wouldn't pay them much attention.

tl;dr
Zelda sucks, lrn2DI, U air Din's Fire, Don't approach

 

[Ganonsburg]

Zelda has a projectile. Yes, it's crappy, but it's better than no projectile, yes? She can make us do something, even if it's simply dodge or PS (or as you suggested, Uair), which is a lot more than what Ganon can do from the other side of the stage.

So yeah, while you say we have something to beat it with, we're still on the defensive, spending frames to get around your projectile that you can use to do what you like.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Fuujin, us Zeldas don't need to approach in this MU. Not at all. If he Uair or Nairs the fireball, so what? This doesn't magically mean we need to approach. We can simply keep forcing action until he breaches our zone. Also, Verm is the Ganon! Not another Zelda lol.

Zelda's recovery is very bleh but my recommendation in a neutral is to always force her to the stage. Practice on being able to ledgehop back onto the stage because with Zelda's landing lag on the stage is similar to you guys, hit it hard!

The CP options listed are good but I would also add PS1 because of the scary lip.

Being grabbed by Zelda, though not really threatening, is still bad because it regains stage control for her. With Zelda's defense game against Ganon, you don't want her to control the stage.

 

[Fuujin]

Fuujin, us Zeldas don't need to approach in this MU. Not at all. If he Uair or Nairs the fireball, so what? This doesn't magically mean we need to approach. We can simply keep forcing action until he breaches our zone. Also, Verm is the Ganon! Not another Zelda lol.

Zelda's recovery is very bleh but my recommendation in a neutral is to always force her to the stage. Practice on being able to ledgehop back onto the stage because with Zelda's landing lag on the stage is similar to you guys, hit it hard!

The CP options listed are good but I would also add PS1 because of the scary lip.

Being grabbed by Zelda, though not really threatening, is still bad because it regains stage control for her. With Zelda's defense game against Ganon, you don't want her to control the stage.

But notice how I said IF Ganondorf has the percent lead, Zelda's going to have to approach eventually.
The only action Zelda can force Ganondorf to use his U air.
You and Ganonsburg seem to think that makes some sort of difference in Ganondorf standing back and not approaching...

 

[Ganonsburg]

You just said Ganon doesn't have to approach. You gave no conditions as to when or where.

 

[Fuujin]

You just said Ganon doesn't have to approach. You gave no conditions as to when or where.

Alright I'll make this clear.
Ganondorf with the Percent Lead(Lower Percent, has dealt more damage to his opponent, winning the match) has no need to approach Zelda.
He can sit back, and she can't safely approach him/force him to approach.

 

[the king of murder]

Ganondorf can't safely approach her as well due to Zelda being an extremely defensive character and she has at least a projectile. If Zelda has the percent lead, Ganon has to approach her.

Basically it comes down to who has the percent lead.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Alright I'll make this clear.
Ganondorf with the Percent Lead(Lower Percent, has dealt more damage to his opponent, winning the match) has no need to approach Zelda.
He can sit back, and she can't safely approach him/force him to approach.

Fair enough, but this can allow us control of the stage by continuing to pressure with din's.

I personally enjoy approaching in this MU, but only to mid/close range. That's just me though.

Also, Verm will tell ya......PS to ****? (usually grab)