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1 Stock, 3 min, Best of 5

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
1-Stock 3 mins Best of 5
I propose that tournament play should be 1 stock, 3 mins, best of 5.


There are three main reasons for this.
1) Increased intensity and value.

2) With that, more fun to watch.

3) Decrease in overall match time.



Increased intensity:

A hit* in brawl has little value. With greater diminishing returns on moves, few combos, difficulty pressing the advantage, and a stock lifespan that generally ranges around 150+%, getting through 3 stocks is a long and arduous process. A single 15% hit is only worth 1/30th of a win. Even doing a sweet 40% combo/attack-string results in only 1/10th of a win. This is not even considering that this could be for three games!

Melee didn't have this problem because 1-4 hits against a good player spelled death. Each moment was intense and exciting. If you were Fox and Marth grabs you, your done. If falco shines you, there goes half, if not more, of your stock. Smash 64 has even more stocks because each hit lead to a retardedly long combo usually resulting in death.

Each time you hit it should mean something more. 1-stock match increases the value of each hit and the intensity of each moment.

*A hit is every time you connect an attack from a relatively neutral position. Not the 2nd attack of a combo. it's every time you mindgame your opponent, punish a move, or your opponent jumps into the ****. This could also be stated as connecting during The Push and Pull section of a match. (Post #45)


More fun to watch:
Each tournament I've been to, everyone leaves after they or all their friends have been knocked out of singles. Those who might stay, play friendlies. I can't imagine wanting to stick around and watch 1-2 hours more of brackets, then another hour of finals. And I have yet to watch a whole finals set. I just can't do it.

Watching 1-stock is more fun. It's less taxing on the viewer. You don't have to watch 6 minutes of Snake throwing grenades while ROB shoots lasers/gyros. It will only be 3 minutes at most.

It's more enjoyable as each moment means something. That 6% damage from a laser is worth something you can see, other than abstracts like control. One aggressive edgeguard could lead to a win. That's exciting to see.

Example : ROB vs Ganon is a boring match. ROB controls the stage while Ganon futilely throws out moves. None of which work because ROB spot dodges all day. It's a sad affair. But then again I watched a ROB vs Ganon 1-stock and it was intense. Sure ganon got camped like a *****, but then ganon landed 4 hits to get ROB off the side. Then landed a ballzy awesome spike for the win. It was awesome. I yelled. 3-stocks, you still have to watch a whole lot more camping.



Decrease in overall match time:
Max 15 minutes for 5 games. This is versus max 24 or 21 for a set of three. Usually tournaments of 32 (including pools) go for about 8 hours. Singles would go from 8+ hours to 4-5 hours. Things will move faster. Friendlies will get done sooner, freeing up TVs faster. More people might stay to watch because it won't be 12:30am before finals are done.



A few side benefits:

-Squirtle, Charizard, and Ivysaur become their own character.
I personally think this is awesome. Maybe you want to be a Charizard main, but you had to learn Squirtle and Ivysaur, now you don't.

-Post-death invulnerability.
I personally hated this, but now it will be gone. No longer will one player have a 2 second control over the entire stage. Now you HAVE to earn that hit.




The Cons:
As I've discussed 1-stock matches, these are the main concerns people bring up.


1) Less variation in position

Some players are better at certain stage positions or stage varations than others. Maybe one player is awesome at recovery, or at edgeguarding, or at using platforms. With less match time there will be less instances of each of those. This means on player could win when really they would have lost, that is if the match went on longer. Maybe the spot you wanted in delfino plaza didn't come up because the match wasn't long enough.

I don't consider this to be too much of a problem because 5 matches allows for MORE stage variation. Instead of 1-2 counter picks there will be 3-4. 15 minutes max is plenty of time to create many different positions.


2) Suicides

Suiciding will now cost you a game. Basically I don't think it matters. You shouldn't have suicided. If your controller makes you lose, then buy a new one. And as it is, Suiciding with 3-stocks already gives a huge advantage to the other player. With 5 matches I don't think it matters all that much.

On this note, death to stages. Like funky lips or stage hazards. Losing to a stage hazard actually becomes less important because now you have more stages to play on. Instead of dieing twice to Final Destinations lip, you will die only once. LTP.


3) Habit recognition

Basically the problem is that with one stock you will not have enough time to adapt to your opponent, learn their habits, and punish accordingly. With 5 matches I don't think that will be a problem.


4) 'cides

Bowsercides, Ganoncides, and whoevercides are now much more powerful. If you land 1 bowsercide, as player 1, you win a game. I personally believe that these tactic are not broken. If you put yourself in a spot where this becomes a problem and then you forget to DI towards the stage, you should lose. Changing to one stock won't change the fact that you lost to bowser.

Honestly I think it would be more exciting. If bowser gets that one koopa claw, that could be it.

5) % wins

With suicide tactics, and less time % wins will increase in frequency. Though this makes it harder on a tournament organizer, I don't think this will become too much of a hassle.




Concluding:
I propose 1-stock, 3 mins, best of 5 for tournament play. I believe that this will make games more intense, more fun to watch, and more cutthroat. Test it out.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Eh?
Well done on writing this. You bring up some good points.

But I'm still not convinced.
As the metagame improves and deepens, the match length's will begin to shorten.
 

The Bino

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
1,543
Location
Poughkeepsie, New York (Upstate)
Ur logic is undeniable

Undeniably stupid though

Who in their right mind says, hey i wanna play Brawl... lets have 1 stock... what happens if you trip into let's say Ike's Fsmash all 3 times in a row and die.... don't say it can't happen, tripping is random at times and always falls into bad timing too
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
"More fun to watch" =/= Good

This is Competitive gaming, not a blockbuster movie. We're here to determine skill, not who's the most entertaining. Seriously, people, stop using "More fun" and "More exciting" and "More variety" as arguments. We want maximized Competitiveness, not maximized entertainment.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
Thanks for the responses guys.


Though, I am a little disappointed with you Yuna. Seriously I was excited to see you absolutely crush me and my idea. I feel short changed. =(

But, you do bring up an excellent point. Tournament rule set should be there to maximize balanced (whatever that means) and competitive play not entertainment value. I guess I have read/seen/been/talked to a lot of people who get bored watching smash. And considering that, few if any stick around to see the finals, well... it seems odd to me. This came up as a possible solution and I thought it deserves consideration. If not for "entertainment value" then at least for time. As I still think brawl singles tournaments take way too long.

So, this proposal is not to decrease player skill or competitiveness. But to address the problems I have stated without effecting tournament outcomes.

As of right now, I do not think 1-stock 3min best of 5 will change tournament placings or diminish competitiveness.

The Bino:
I want 1 stock best of 5 matches.....? I think that's the right answer.....

If we reduce the total number of stocks, tripping will mean more. But I heavily doubt it will effect tournament placings to the point that a better player loses to a weaker player.

Will you trip into Ike forward smashes? Yes, and it will happen at the same frequency as three stock best of 3. I don't see Super strong moves being fast enough to react to your opponent tripping. Thus, the hypothetical Ike forward smash, is a little unrealistic. From the 1-stock matches I have played tripping has yet to play a significant role. Could it? Yes. But that is why we have best of 5 not best of 1.


TheManaLord:
The effectiveness of camping tactics will not change if we reduce the amount of stock.
(Personally I don't have a problem with camping. If you can win by controlling the stage and your opponent through projectiles, more power to you.)


vyse:
That's a good point. We cannot foresee what ridiculous awesome combos/tactics people will develop. But I don't think it necessarily follows that future matches will be shorter. Which why I'm working with what we have now, and not some potential future. Would you/anyone else at least agree 2-stock could be better than 3-stock? (In the current state that the game is in.)

Inui:
You win

KosukeKGA
I'm don't really understand sure what your saying. Yes if we know who the superior player is, watching that match will probably be less exciting. But that is still the same way now........? And what does the FE person mean (lyn?)
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
The thing is, the 'potential future' will only come about if we keep on with 3 stock matches. Like you stated in your cons list, the potential in alot of characters come out in their survivability. Once a stock has taken, suddenly the whole pace of the match switches. One player is visibly in front of the other, and the other is playing catch up. Alot of the mindgames involved in Melee/Brawl then come to the fore.

Each time you hit it should mean something more. 1-stock match increases the value of each hit and the intensity of each moment.
While somewhat true, good players will be keeping track of this every stock. A player able to follow and play according to current percentages is just one of many things that set amateurs apart from pro's in melee, and the same could be said for Brawl.

People have already begun to notice matches becoming faster, and can only become faster as time goes by. Remember what AZ wrote, After two years of melee being out, Chillin still couldn't short hop consistently, and still beat Ken in the finals of a major tournament. (I still have the video on my hard drive). I watch that video now, and it just seems incredibly slow compared to today's Melee Metagame. We are all trying too hard to change a game that just needs to develop more. All we can do is keep playing, and play it as much as possible.

Again. Rat, your proposal is justified, but the reasoning behind 3-stock matches are justified more I think.
 

i rise

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
155
Location
Indianapolis, IN
i just read this thread on allisbrawl and i find it pretty funny how differently each site is taking this.

like i said last night rat, i was a little skeptical at first, but after reading your post you've almost swayed my opinion on it. GG rat(?). i do think people will prefer decreasing the stocks to 2 over 1 though.
 
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