1.06 Patch Thread - Koopalings (Please read OP before posting)

[W.A.C.]

Despite the insane amount of nerfs Diddy got, he's still probably the best character in the game because for whatever reason, his up throw knockback was reduced so it basically replaced his down throw. You can find more information about it here. Shiek's killing power was hurt badly in the previous balance patch and now her back air got nerfed badly this patch. Sonic was hurt the worst of the top tiers because his back throw no longer kills and his spindash does less damage. Sonic might not even be a top tier character anymore because of these nerfs. Mii Brawler also received major nerfs, including one of his customs that worried a lot of people because of its previous stupidly good killing power.

Bowser Jr. is now an overall more competitive character because the best characters in the game now have nowhere near as much killing power as they used to. Considering how Bowser Jr. is either the 4th or 6th heaviest character in the game, that is a huge benefit to anyone who mains him. But also keep in mind less knockback from Diddy, Shiek, and Sonic will likely result in more juggling, so be warned. Regardless, anyone who mains a low or mid tier character benefits enormously from this balance patch because none of the top tier character seem broken anymore. Diddy's forward air has like, no kill power anymore. On an omega stage, I had to get a Mario CPU over 180% just to kill him with forward air. So ridiculous. I hate this patch.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Did Bowser Jr. get any buffs at all? If not, at least his worst matchups are now nowhere near as bad. Though considering how one of my mains is Diddy, you could all probably imagine how I feel about this update. :/

Why are you sad that the game is more balanced? No more free wins. gotta be good now

 

[Conn1496]

Side-B seems to have lower knockback scaling, but more base knockback. MK seems unchanged to me. I think canonball travels faster, but no range buff (Which, if true, is bad to me and the way I use canonball.). U-air seems knockback nerfed, which takes away from the KO out of side-B, but more combo potential, I suppose. Up-B 2 feels stronger as a KO though, which is a huuuge bonus.

No real study, but this is what I've just picked up on just playing naturally.

...That being said, I'm not exactly reliable right now since I've been playing Mewtwo a lot more than anyone else. Yes, I'm one of those people and I got the code for free from a friend, so why the hell not?
(Sorry, . You will always be my boy tho.)

 

[Mahgnittoc]

As much as he got nerfed, is diddy still viable? Cuz if he is, now diddy players can actually get a chance to better explore the character and shake off the hoohah reputation

Diddy is still viable. As a Diddy main, I can say D-throw u-air was a bit strong. Overall they nerfed throws, U-air, and F-air. The aerials hurt the most everything else is whatever. If you can't play Diddy without grabs you aren't a true Diddy.

Now I'll say for Jr., it looks like neutral B's animation is faster. I also think when you D-air someone into the ground the knockback is slightly changed on it. I won't be able to confirm the D-air til after today

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Side-B seems to have lower knockback scaling, but more base knockback. MK seems unchanged to me. I think canonball travels faster, but no range buff (Which, if true, is bad to me and the way I use canonball.). U-air seems knockback nerfed, which takes away from the KO out of side-B, but more combo potential, I suppose. Up-B 2 feels stronger as a KO though, which is a huuuge bonus.

No real study, but this is what I've just picked up on just playing naturally.

...That being said, I'm not exactly reliable right now since I've been playing Mewtwo a lot more than anyone else. Yes, I'm one of those people and I got the code for free from a friend, so why the hell not?
(Sorry, . You will always be my boy tho.)

Not going to jump down your throat cuz we're all excited, but please only post changes you've tested. Speculation is harmful.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Mii Brawler also received major nerfs, including one of his customs that worried a lot of people because of its previous stupidly good killing power.

Major nerf(s)? The only thing that got nerfed about him was the removal of the one inch punch. Everything about him is still exactly the same including the natural power of Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch

 

[Tater]

-Uair is different; it seems to hit its apex faster(But hitboxes are differently positioned from the new animation, it's subtle but it's farther ahead of Jr and less behind.) In addition, I think while the hitbox now reaches its apex faster, there's more downtime.
-Up-B impact(Cart, not explosion) buffed from 3% to 5%
-D-tilt ending frames shortened (but it still has the same IASA frames)
-They did something to standing grab. I think it's IASA frames. As soon as the claw pinches you can do something else. Whatever it is, grab is definitely less laggy.
-Bair seems to be smaller, but it could be placebo.
-Fsmash still has the extended hitbox for the final hit, and there is now a visual indicator for where that is(orange "hit" spark).

That's all I've found on the surface.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

None of that is true. Uair is the same. Up b impact was always 5%. Dtilt is identical. You can't act out of grab quicker. Bair hasn't changed size.

 

[flieskiller]

I feel like the 1st jump is higher, can anybody verify that?

 

[Drarky]

It's kinda weird, if the Jab hits properly, it does like 20% of damage, which is ridiculous. (I feel like it's actually more decent now)

 

[TheRetroBitGamer]

I found a really cool property and possible AT of the Koopalings mechakoopa that I've never found before until now. For now I'll call it "Koopa Bounce". I'll give a brief explanation because I think this is worth posting a separate discussion about.

Before I explain how to perform this neat trick, first let me explain how it happened and why I don't think it was a AT/property before update 1.0.6.

So the way I found this move is by starting up a match and doing what I always do: double jumping and dropping a mechakoopa and if I can, picking it up. Well when I did that after the update, I picked it up and threw it down and the mechakoopa bounced off the ground. I was able to dribble it 2-4 times consecutively before it exploded.

Reason why I think this wasn't in before update 1.0.6 is because I've done this EVERY match and it's never happened until now.

How to do it:

Start by jumping or double jumping and while in midair, drop a mechakoopa. It'll enter a tumble animation until it hits the ground, bounces a few times, waits about 30 frames, and starts walking. Grab the mechakoopa before it starts walking. Timing isn't hard at all, but it depends on how you jump. As simple as that, you've activated the "bouncy" property. Now you'll find that when you d-throw the mechakoopa, it bounces up above and you can jump up and grab it when it does this. You can continue to dribble it (grab and d-throw) until it explodes and no, it won't hurt you.

Mess around with this and give me feedback. As far as I know, I'm the only person that's found this and has posted on it, so please give me credit.
Tell me what you think!

 

[Tater]

I found a really cool property and possible AT of the Koopalings mechakoopa that I've never found before until now. For now I'll call it "Koopa Bounce". I'll give a brief explanation because I think this is worth posting a separate discussion about.

Before I explain how to perform this neat trick, first let me explain how it happened and why I don't think it was a AT/property before update 1.0.6.

So the way I found this move is by starting up a match and doing what I always do: double jumping and dropping a mechakoopa and if I can, picking it up. Well when I did that after the update, I picked it up and threw it down and the mechakoopa bounced off the ground. I was able to dribble it 2-4 times consecutively before it exploded.

Reason why I think this wasn't in before update 1.0.6 is because I've done this EVERY match and it's never happened until now.

How to do it:

Start by jumping or double jumping and while in midair, drop a mechakoopa. It'll enter a tumble animation until it hits the ground, bounces a few times, waits about 30 frames, and starts walking. Grab the mechakoopa before it starts walking. Timing isn't hard at all, but it depends on how you jump. As simple as that, you've activated the "bouncy" property. Now you'll find that when you d-throw the mechakoopa, it bounces up above and you can jump up and grab it when it does this. You can continue to dribble it (grab and d-throw) until it explodes and no, it won't hurt you.

Mess around with this and give me feedback. As far as I know, I'm the only person that's found this and has posted on it, so please give me credit.
Tell me what you think!

This was a thing before 1.0.6. It happened to me dozens of times, but I wasn't sure exactly what property made the mechakoopa bounce. You should post this on the moveset discussion topic; I don't think there's an explanation for how to do it yet.

 

[TheRetroBitGamer]

This was a thing before 1.0.6. It happened to me dozens of times, but I wasn't sure exactly what property made the mechakoopa bounce. You should post this on the moveset discussion topic; I don't think there's an explanation for how to do it yet.

Thank you for the reply! Perhaps they made it easier and improved the bounce because it happened very rarely and only bounced once and blew up before update 1.0.6. I'll still post a thread sometime within the next hour because I know exactly how to perform the move without fail and I feel it has potential.

 

[Kojo]

I'm so glad they finally fixed the forward smash. I lost so many kills because of the dumb hitbox.

 

[W.A.C.]

Why are you sad that the game is more balanced? No more free wins. gotta be good now

Sakarai's way of balancing the game is making it more slow paced by making it much more difficult to get kills, worsening frame data, and increasing landing lag to moves, instead of focusing on making lower tier characters more awesome. This patch in particular had way too big of an emphasis on nerfs instead of buffs. When the 3DS version came out, a lot of characters felt so fluid and awesome. Now many of the best characters are nowhere near as fun and that sucks. A few years from now at the rate things are going, the game's pacing will continue to go to hell and we'll probably end up with Brawl 2.0.

Major nerf(s)? The only thing that got nerfed about him was the removal of the one inch punch. Everything about him is still exactly the same including the natural power of Helicopter Kick and Piston Punch

In that case, a lot of people said wrong information on this site and I figured it was accurate because of the number of people who mentioned nerfs the character got. If Mii Brawler was barely nerfed at all while Diddy Kong, Shiek, and Sonic got nerfed hard, dear god...

 

[Cherubas]

Play a different game then I guess. Most people like that efforts are being made to balance the game. I like that they're bringing people to more of a middle ground than trying to buff everyone up to god tier. I prefer a game where the victor is the person who consistently adapts to the situation, makes the read, and lands the hit, as opposed to a luck based system where Diddy Kong needs to land a lucky grab twice in order to take a stock.

There's a fighting game called Divekick where every character plays pretty similarly and they're buffed enough that one hit wins the round. That might be more your speed since you clearly don't like OUR game...

 

[W.A.C.]

I loved how the game used to be and hate how the game is progressively becoming more slow paced and even harder to get kills. I would have much rather seen them just buff characters up to where everyone feels like S and A tier characters instead of A and B tier.

 

[Rynhardt]

The jab and the fsmash are the only changes I can guarantee from hours of dittos.
I am feeling better about dsmash and dair but that could easily be placebo. Changes or not, patch day at least gets people experimenting again. I feel like I developed my Jr a ton in the last day.

Edit: may have discovered something with dair that propels jr to a viable tier. Will check back in after work to test.

Edit 2: Now that I have some time to explain, I was told by another Junior main that his fast fall hit confirm auto cancel dair was made safer on shield, and after practice I am wntirely convinced this is true, and possibly even 100% safe. Tested on Luigi AI who shielded my dair, I landed behind him and rolled out of his instant usmash. I then tested landing in front of him with a grab and this also worked, even when he dropped shield immediately to act. I would like to test for consistency and against a local player. In about an hour and a half I will put up an emergency stream at twitch.tv/rynnyryn to test it further. I will report back here with results as well.

Edit 3: Tried against a player with better reaction, unfortunately it's not perfectly safe but it is certainly safer. Better off landing behind most opponents at just the edge of their shield. Luigi with good reaction can still usmash you. Dair should become a part of every Junior's mixup in some way if it wasn't before when it wasn't so safe on shield.

 

[V1cegrip]

jab used to do 23% for the full duration. now it does 20%. If you guys are correct and the whole thing connects better overall I'll take the dmg nerf in favor of better connection.

 

[pikazz]

the Final hit on Jab much have higher knockback, since I scored a kill using that move O.o didnt score a kill with it before

I found a really cool property and possible AT of the Koopalings mechakoopa that I've never found before until now. For now I'll call it "Koopa Bounce". I'll give a brief explanation because I think this is worth posting a separate discussion about.

Before I explain how to perform this neat trick, first let me explain how it happened and why I don't think it was a AT/property before update 1.0.6.

So the way I found this move is by starting up a match and doing what I always do: double jumping and dropping a mechakoopa and if I can, picking it up. Well when I did that after the update, I picked it up and threw it down and the mechakoopa bounced off the ground. I was able to dribble it 2-4 times consecutively before it exploded.

Reason why I think this wasn't in before update 1.0.6 is because I've done this EVERY match and it's never happened until now.

How to do it:

Start by jumping or double jumping and while in midair, drop a mechakoopa. It'll enter a tumble animation until it hits the ground, bounces a few times, waits about 30 frames, and starts walking. Grab the mechakoopa before it starts walking. Timing isn't hard at all, but it depends on how you jump. As simple as that, you've activated the "bouncy" property. Now you'll find that when you d-throw the mechakoopa, it bounces up above and you can jump up and grab it when it does this. You can continue to dribble it (grab and d-throw) until it explodes and no, it won't hurt you.

Mess around with this and give me feedback. As far as I know, I'm the only person that's found this and has posted on it, so please give me credit.
Tell me what you think!

its already discovered, its called "mecha juggling", both that the explosion doesnt hurt you if you regrab it (ZAir example) and that throwing down before it start to walk

 

[Rynhardt]

the Final hit on Jab much have higher knockback, since I scored a kill using that move O.o didnt score a kill with it before

It has always been a kill move. It was just impossible to land.

 

[Glicnak]

The jab and the fsmash are the only changes I can guarantee from hours of dittos.
I am feeling better about dsmash and dair but that could easily be placebo. Changes or not, patch day at least gets people experimenting again. I feel like I developed my Jr a ton in the last day.

Edit: may have discovered something with dair that propels jr to a viable tier. Will check back in after work to test.

Edit 2: Now that I have some time to explain, I was told by another Junior main that his fast fall hit confirm auto cancel dair was made safer on shield, and after practice I am wntirely convinced this is true, and possibly even 100% safe. Tested on Luigi AI who shielded my dair, I landed behind him and rolled out of his instant usmash. I then tested landing in front of him with a grab and this also worked, even when he dropped shield immediately to act. I would like to test for consistency and against a local player. In about an hour and a half I will put up an emergency stream at twitch.tv/rynnyryn to test it further. I will report back here with results as well.

Edit 3: Tried against a player with better reaction, unfortunately it's not perfectly safe but it is certainly safer. Better off landing behind most opponents at just the edge of their shield. Luigi with good reaction can still usmash you. Dair should become a part of every Junior's mixup in some way if it wasn't before when it wasn't so safe on shield.

Unfortunately this sounds like how dair used to work :S dairing at the edge of someone's shield might give you enough time to react if their reaction time to it isn't great, even on the older version. Also someone did side-by-side comparisons on a 3ds and claimed there was no difference :\ So unfortunately, this is probably placebo. If anything, it probably means that all the lab time is making you better at spacing your dairs :D

 

[Glicnak]

To everyone else, ppl have also claimed to have their jab combos still whiffing, so I'm gonna call that one debunked...

 

[Rynhardt]

To everyone else, ppl have also claimed to have their jab combos still whiffing, so I'm gonna call that one debunked...

as long as I get a PC Mewtwo close or mid range, he can't DI it. You can still whiff max range jabs as it should be. Jabs on Jigglypuff are just always going to whiff.

 

[pikazz]

one more thing I found with Jr that is a buff is Landing Dair

his Landing Dair lag on shield is as fast as if jr hits the opponent normally! meaning you do a move much faster if the opponent do shield!
now Jr has a better on shield options since Jr do can get a Dtilt/Ftilt before the opponent will grab jr!

 

[Glicnak]

as long as I get a PC Mewtwo close or mid range, he can't DI it. You can still whiff max range jabs as it should be. Jabs on Jigglypuff are just always going to whiff.

So... Nothings changed about that? Mewtwos hitbox is huge. Most characters with giant hotboxes cant DI a jab combo if you get them perfectly and at reasonable percents.

one more thing I found with Jr that is a buff is Landing Dair

his Landing Dair lag on shield is as fast as if jr hits the opponent normally! meaning you do a move much faster if the opponent do shield!
now Jr has a better on shield options since Jr do can get a Dtilt/Ftilt before the opponent will grab jr!

Can you provide a video to support this? Im very dubious.

 

[pikazz]

Can you provide a video to support this? Im very dubious.

as you can see, the shield on "Shield" and "Hit" gets called early, (almost) same frame

as I recall, the end lad on "shield" have never been that fast! it was like on "miss"

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I can't confirm the video's findings 100%, but it does feel like the ff dair "autocancel" applies to on shield hits as well as direct hits now, as opposed to simply the latter.

It's still unsafe on shield unfortuantely, but being able to act quicker is always a good thing.

EDIT: JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR. I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR THIS. I CAN JUST NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY.

Also,

This was a thing before 1.0.6. It happened to me dozens of times, but I wasn't sure exactly what property made the mechakoopa bounce. You should post this on the moveset discussion topic; I don't think there's an explanation for how to do it yet.

There is an explanation. As long as the mk hasn't started walking it will always bounce. If you smash throw it it'll bounce even higher. This works for the big MK too.

It doesn't have a ton of use since the setup is sort of long and unwieldy, but it's good for JCTing to allow you to immediately go for a grab and also cover a roll behind you with the bouncing mk

 

[pikazz]

I can't confirm the video's findings 100%, but it does feel like the ff dair "autocancel" applies to on shield hits as well as direct hits now, as opposed to simply the latter.

It's still unsafe on shield unfortuantely, but being able to act quicker is always a good thing.

EDIT: JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR. I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR THIS. I CAN JUST NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY.

the reason why I found that was because I was going to punish a Jr with Jigglypuff Dash attack cause its a good killmove, but Jr was able to jump away before I was able to attack D: (or was it a Side Smash, I dont remember)
its still a great buff, doesnt leave you helpless too long xD

edit: tested that on my 1.0.5 3DS game, there it appears to be "almost the same speed", however I do feel that the Wii U has little more earlier interruption than the 3DS one
the best is to test the 1.0.2 on Wii U to see if its a buff or nerf!

 

[divade]

I can't confirm the video's findings 100%, but it does feel like the ff dair "autocancel" applies to on shield hits as well as direct hits now, as opposed to simply the latter.

It's still unsafe on shield unfortuantely, but being able to act quicker is always a good thing.

EDIT: JUST SO WE'RE CLEAR. I'M NOT ADVOCATING FOR THIS. I CAN JUST NEITHER CONFIRM NOR DENY.

Also,


There is an explanation. As long as the mk hasn't started walking it will always bounce. If you smash throw it it'll bounce even higher. This works for the big MK too.

It doesn't have a ton of use since the setup is sort of long and unwieldy, but it's good for JCTing to allow you to immediately go for a grab and also cover a roll behind you with the bouncing mk

Watching the Video HD on 1/4 speed. I will affirm that it's faster. on hit you are able to sheild before the "hatch" even tries to close. this is not true for a missed d-air.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Bowser Jr. is now an overall more competitive character because the best characters in the game now have nowhere near as much killing power as they used to..

problem is, still exists.

 

[W.A.C.]

While I know Fox is a bad matchup, I can't imagine he's considered as bad as Diddy Kong and Shiek pre-patch.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

While I know Fox is a bad matchup, I can't imagine he's considered as bad as Diddy Kong and Shiek pre-patch.

Infinite jab lock on BJR is a thing.

Also yeah, after like, 100+ post-patch bjr games I think I can confirm that dair is now safer on shield than it used to be.

 

[V1cegrip]

Does Jr. have an extra hard time getting out of jab than other characters? Even if that's confirmed i still don't consider fox super bad for Jr. Imo Jr's hardest matchups are Megaman and Sheik. Palutena/Olimar may also be hard matchups for him, need more experience vs those two (thinking olimar cause if the pikmin are on your face they aren't coming off due to no face clearing moves). I used to think Rosalina was one of his harder matchups but she dies so early to Kart>up B and jr's spacing game is decent vs her so I don't put her among in his harder matchups anymore.

Yup dair is safer (you will still be punished against a good player 95% of the time, but the punish won't be as hard as it used to be i.e. a charged smash).

Jab does less damage and fsmash connects better. Those are the only 3 things I think can be confirmed. I have seen no evidence of jab connecting better, I feel like that may be placebo effect but I hope someone can prove me wrong.

 

[guedes the brawler]

honestly, i think it can't get worse than Fox. He's strong, he's fast, he does not give a damn for our projectiles, has a infinite jab lock on us... our only advantage IMO is that he is pretty easily gimped.

but i digress. this isn't the match-up thread.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Does Jr. have an extra hard time getting out of jab than other characters? Even if that's confirmed i still don't consider fox super bad for Jr. Imo Jr's hardest matchups are Megaman and Sheik. Palutena/Olimar may also be hard matchups for him, need more experience vs those two (thinking olimar cause if the pikmin are on your face they aren't coming off due to no face clearing moves). I used to think Rosalina was one of his harder matchups but she dies so early to Kart>up B and jr's spacing game is decent vs her so I don't put her among in his harder matchups anymore.

Yup dair is safer (you will still be punished against a good player 95% of the time, but the punish won't be as hard as it used to be i.e. a charged smash).

Jab does less damage and fsmash connects better. Those are the only 3 things I think can be confirmed. I have seen no evidence of jab connecting better, I feel like that may be placebo effect but I hope someone can prove me wrong.

Fox's jab-lock is an infinite on BJr, ROB and other heavy, floaty characters. Sucks. Still has substantially harder matchups like the ones you mentioned, but it's frustrating regardless.

Jab doesn't actually do less damage post-patch. I tested it side by side patch/no patch and they both do 20% minimum vs Mario.

he does not give a damn for our projectiles,.

If he reflects the mk and you're spaced properly, you can just drive through it for a free punish before he can get out of reflector. And Cannon is always bad, so that's irrelevant.

 

[guedes the brawler]

by "drive," you mean side b?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Yep, mechakoopa hitbox is low enough that the super armour negates all knock back.

 

[V1cegrip]

Fox's jab-lock is an infinite on BJr, ROB and other heavy, floaty characters. Sucks. Still has substantially harder matchups like the ones you mentioned, but it's frustrating regardless.

Jab doesn't actually do less damage post-patch. I tested it side by side patch/no patch and they both do 20% minimum vs Mario.


If he reflects the mk and you're spaced properly, you can just drive through it for a free punish before he can get out of reflector. And Cannon is always bad, so that's irrelevant.

Oops ya this isn't the matchup thread but i'm 99% sure that jab full combo did 23% pre patch! did you test on fox? He's a character that cause of his weight or fall speed takes the entire combo and I used to test percents all the time pre-patch. hmmmm.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Oops ya this isn't the matchup thread but i'm 99% sure that jab full combo did 23% pre patch! did you test on fox? He's a character that cause of his weight or fall speed takes the entire combo and I used to test percents all the time pre-patch. hmmmm.

Will check right now for you on Fox specifically.

Results: Nope, the 3 hit A>A>A jab combo did 20% to Fox pre-patch. That said, Fox's weight and fall speed ensured that if i continued the rapid jab by spamming A it was guaranteed to connect up until 23%. Maybe that's where this confusion is coming from? The minimum jab was always 20% but the optimal jab length on Fox went up until 23%.