Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Mario upb:
-Frame 3
-Intangible
-Stage Spikes

There's a reason why it's not challenged often.

-Kills sonics at 0

 

[Mario766]

Aether kills people at 0 with rage and special circumstances and no one talks about that.

everyone sees Mario killing at almost blast zone level with an up-b that is known to have set KB and everyone goes bat**** insane.

 

[Trifroze]

That move may be very fast (frame 3) but it has humongous ending lag. It's super unsafe. It's range is horrible too.

The move is done by Luma therefore being completely safe for Rosalina and having all the range you want. For Luma itself the FAF is 30 which means it's among the fastest moves in the entire game, and even Rosalina's FAF of 41 is fairly average among tilts.

And if it's so broken, why can't you find tournament footage of someone dying to it?

The move is not purely used for killing, it gives Rosalina a juggling position from as low as 0% without putting her into any kind of risk (of course, this is her thing as a character) like dash attacks and grabs do for other characters, and her uairs will usually do the rest. For killing, usmash is commonly used instead of utilt because in that context it's pretty much a better version of the same thing. I never called utilt broken, I said it shouldn't kill at 60% at max rage (where it does become a better option that usmash).

You literally have to be INSIDE Luma to get hit by the sweetspot. Otherwise it's just an average move.

i hate how people spread misinformation.

Not as much as I do apparently.

 

[TurboLink]

Aether kills people at 0 with rage and special circumstances and no one talks about that.

everyone sees Mario killing at almost blast zone level with an up-b that is known to have set KB and everyone goes bat**** insane.

 

[TriTails]

If it wasn't about Luigi, why did you talk about how we wasted "5-6 pages complaining about your main" and ask that we "stop complaining about Luigi for the 200000000x time". Also I don't think anyone in the past couple of pages (or at least anyone worth mentioning) has been talking about nerfs, they've really just been complaining about his design.

I suppose those did sway my point away. I actually wasn't meaning to talk about Luigi but... yea...

My point is, why aren't people discussing how to fight X? Why are people keep insisting to discuss how to nerf them and complaining about their design, which are not productive? It's fine to suggest nerfs, but I DO think people need to actually discuss how to deal with X more than how to nerf X or X is so ****ing stupid. No matter how hard we yell, 200696858 pages of 'How to nerf Sheik' and 'Sheik is stupid' don't change the fact she is still the best character in the game.

For a game known for good recoveries, I find it ironic that everyone is afraid to go offstage for edgeguarding. Some recoveries go far but don't have a hitbox such as Pit's or Rosalina's. A Falcon could easily end a stock by spiking Villager while he's recovering because it has no hitbox yet no one does this.

Falcon spiking Villager.

You do know Villy has the means to control his Up-B right? And it is definitely nowehere near 'easy' to spike Villager.

Otherwise though, people are STILL being scared for a misfire that happens once in a blue moon. So go figure.

Because Aether killing at 0% haven't even happened yet, I don't think anyone even know about that until Mario mentioned it.

 

[Green L]

Recoveries in smash 4 wouldn't be so "free" if players actually put in the effort. That's like someone saying " Why does this ness keep getting back to the ledge for free?". The answer is: because most players don't do anything about it. I understand gimping is pointless on really good recoveries like Shiek or ZSS but seeing so little edgeguarding on the more susceptible recoveries like Falcon or Roy makes me question if edgeguarding those two characters is too difficult or most people simply don't try. I also know villager can control his up b but edgeguarding him is not impossible

 

[Mario766]

I suppose those did sway my point away. I actually wasn't meaning to talk about Luigi but... yea...

My point is, why aren't people discussing how to fight Luigi? Why are people keep insisting to discuss how to nerf him and complaining about his design, which are not productive? It's fine to suggest nerfs, but I DO think people need to actually discuss how to deal with X more than how to nerf X or X is so ****ing stupid. No matter how hard we yell, 200696858 pages of 'How to nerf Sheik' and 'Sheik is stupid' don't change the fact she is still the best character in the game.


Falcon spiking Villager.

You do know Villy has the means to control his Up-B right? And it is definitely nowehere near 'easy' to spike Villager.

Otherwise though, people are STILL being scared for a misfire that happens once in a blue moon and isn't even that strong from the other end of the stage. So go figure.


Because Aether killing at 0% haven't even happened yet, I don't think anyone even know about that until Mario mentioned it.

It's happened multiple times. Ike board has talked about it. Has it happened in a tournament set? mehhh

Doesn't matter, people get killed by silly **** at 0 due to Rage + Smash Charge but people don't understand that if you're close to the blast zone **** will kill you extremely early.

 

[Illuminose]

The fact that people are still rating Diddy so high (top 5 range) is perplexing to me. This isn't Luigi, who borderline invalidates a good chunk of the cast and has positive matchups vs many good characters (Pikachu, Diddy, Mario, Ness, Fox, Falcon...). Diddy's matchup spread isn't even that good. "Going even" with Sheik is supported by some evidence, but most of the "evidence" is Mr R's clearly evident Diddy Kong problem. The fact of the matter is that Sheik's neutral is better than Diddy's. Her options are safer. But the thing that really pushes it over the edge is the off-stage game. Sheik ****s on Diddy off-stage. It's really bad if you can force Diddy into his barrels, which isn't too hard. Soft nair kills Diddy that is charging barrels, even. Simple as that. I'd venture to say it's 6-4 Sheik's favor. Doesn't surprise me that ZeRo thinks Diddy loses. As for other good characters...he loses to Rosalina and Luigi pretty badly. Also loses to Ness. And who is Diddy really beating. His matchup spread just isn't that good. Diddy's neutral is good as ****, but that's really all he has besides some decent grab combos (that don't generally convert into kills). He has the setups to kill, but often struggles to land kill confirms. He has a lot of issues off-stage against characters who can edgeguard. How can you place Diddy Kong over characters like Fox, Ness, and Luigi? The only real argument is that his representation is pretty amazing, but the best player in the world is not even confident enough in Diddy to go all the way with the character, 95% relying on Sheik even when he enjoys Diddy much more. 100% sure he would not win as much if he went solo Diddy. It's a fact of matchups.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The move is done by Luma therefore being completely safe for Rosalina and having all the range you want. For Luma itself the FAF is 30 which means it's among the fastest moves in the entire game, and even Rosalina's FAF of 41 is fairly average among tilts.



The move is not purely used for killing, it gives Rosalina a juggling position from as low as 0% without putting her into any kind of risk (of course, this is her thing as a character) like dash attacks and grabs do for other characters, and her uairs will usually do the rest. For killing, usmash is commonly used instead of utilt because in that context it's pretty much a better version of the same thing. I never called utilt broken, I said it shouldn't kill at 60% at max rage (where it does become a better option that usmash).

Not as much as I do apparently.

R.I.P. Planty
???-2015
0-death
Re: Diddy. I have a hard time figuring out how good he is. Sometimes I can't tell if it's just Diddy being a really good character or if ZeRo, Angel Cortez, and MVD are just really good at the game. Diddy as a character has an ample amount of tech and depth, along with the banana, great ground speed and specing tools in Dtilt and Fair. I just really can't see what his matchup spread is like, and that's usually what matters most. (if anyone can enlighten me on that it would be appriciated).

 

[Trifroze]

In my mind the best evidence at the moment for Diddy doing fine versus Sheik was the fact that at the end, Zero did better vs Vinnie with Diddy than he did with Sheik. Doesn't confirm anything of course, but right now only Nairo's ZSS, Esam's Pikachu and MVD's and Zero's Diddies are/have been doing well versus the top Sheiks.

To be honest I think Zero might be at a point where he's at odds between wanting to keep his winning streak and wanting to take it easier. The result at the moment is that he's hesitant on going to tournaments because he doesn't want to lose the streak and it takes a too much work to keep it. This may be obvious, and maybe after he loses he starts using Diddy more.

edited this message like 12 times due to "insert" being switched on

 

[Ffamran]

Do you mean the data on a reference table you are using, or is it straight from the game?

If both hits connect, can they be additive? Also, one must consider how high rosa can get, she often gets those kills an inch away from the ceiling where anything would kill... its just her hitboxes are out for so long

Rosalina's Uair is as follows: early hit is frame 8-10, does 10%, has a hit angle of 88, base of 40, and growth of 98, next hitbox is frame 11-21, does 5%, has a hit angle of 88, base of 40, and growth of 98, and the late hit is frame 22-29, does 2%, has a hit angle of 88, base of 20, and growth of 30. The total amount of active frames is 20 and she can act at frame 42.

Falco's pre-patch 1.0.8 Uair is as follows: frame 10-14, does 11%, has hit angles of 68 or 80 for the sour-spot, has a base of 27 or 30 for the sour-spot, and growth of 100 or 20 for the sour-spot. Falco could act at frame 36 and there's only 5 active frames. Falco's current Uair is frame 7-11, does 10%, has hit angles of 65, 75, and 85, has a base of 35, and growth of 90. He can act at frame 34.

For jump heights, according to this study: http://smashboards.com/threads/jump-height-rankings.412187/, Falco's the 3rd overall highest jumper. First goes to Palutena with lightweight followed by Shulk with all variations of Jump, but in terms of constant jump capabilities, he's the highest jumper. Rosalina is 4th by default tied with Diddy and Mii Brawler. Assuming they're at the same height, they should be killing at similar percents not like Rosalina killing at about 60% while Falco kills at 100%. If anything, it should be something like Rosalina kills at 100% and Falco kills at 120%. Given their specs, Rosalina has a better time moving in the air and following her opponent. She also moves faster than Falco on the ground. Her lower fall speed means she can stay at a higher altitude longer than Falco, but even still, she shouldn't be killing that early. Yes, Falco's Uair pre- or post-patch is easier to DI than Rosalina's Uair which is more vertical and yes, her Uair has more vertical range - wished we had a hitbox viewer - while Falco's is centered around his body, and yes, her Uair lasts 15 frames longer than Falco's, but there shouldn't be that gap between kill power when numbers say differently. Even with the late hit of Rosalina's Uair which assumes it's at the very top of her Uair hitbox, it shouldn't boot someone past the blast zone. Clean hit can, but not at 60% when you're about a quarter or a third of the way near the blast zone.

Her Uair along with her and Luma's jab are moves that make me question if the game's lying to us. When I'm talking about the game, I'm talking about frame data found by digging through game's files by magnificent people like Dantarion and compiled by numerous people like Aerodrome, BJN39, Indigo Jeans, etc.

Where are the top level fox players at and why do I never see this character being played? He has a way better kit that the majority of other characters. Crazy burst movement and general speed, great damage output and kill setups, a much better recovery than he ever had before, the ability to force anyone without a good duck/crawl to approach and an extremely safe all purpose combo starter and gtfo in up tilt.

Uh... Do any of these names ring a bell? Megafox, Larry Lurr, Snow, Feel Tension, Rice, Nietono, Yui, Kraven, or Phenom?

In the future, for people wondering about what players of what characters, especially characters like Fox, Captain Falcon, or Rosalina, check out the power rankings thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/, or the notable players thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/notable-players-list-aug-15-fox-sonic.396344/.

for the lols

@DanGR: "One of those exaggerations was Rosalina's KO power"

Ah... the rage charging Smash punish... Like what was mentioned about Falco dying at 0% to Aether: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9GhnZra0IQ#t=1m33s.

Charging Smashes means you can do more knockback and damage, but getting hit means you receive more knockback. Here's the issue: why do certain moves end up killing you very early when charging a Smash? Even dying at 50% from getting hit by an opponent with max rage while charging a Smash is pushing it. 80% would make more sense, but 0%? I don't know how rage works entirely, but I think this might be an oversight where certain moves, usually with high base knockback like Luma's Utilt or moves with weighted knockback like Mario's Super Jump Punch or Ike's Aether interact very strangely. Ike's Aether's first hit is frame 18-19, only does 6%, has a hit angle of 91, 78, or 90, no base knockback, 160 or 130 weighted knockback, and 100 knockback growth. There is nothing about that suggests it can kill at 0%. Same goes for Luma's Utilt; ground-only hit is frame 3, does 8%, has a hit angle of 88, has a base of 120, and growth of 60, normal hit is frame 4-5, does 4%, has a hit angle of 98 or 93, base of 85 or 80, and growth of 60, and the late hit is frame 6-7, does 3%, has a hit angle of 90, has 80 base, and 60 growth.

Maybe little mac doesn't have the worst u-special since it can also kill. Robins is pretty good for edgeguarding too, I think you can arcthunder into a spike with it.

Worst Up Special probably goes to Jigglypuff. What does Sing even do that is worth the risk? A lack of an Up Special recovery isn't that bad since Jigglypuff by design is a balloon, so she can recovery solely by gliding back and using her jumps to juke people. Worst Up Special recovery and/or worst Up Special attack probably goes to characters like Captain Falcon, Falco - the only character to have a strictly inferior version of another character's Up Special -, Ganondorf, Kirby?, Robin?, and Shulk. Probably one of the Mii Fighters too, but I don't really know which and what. Little Mac's Rising Uppercut isn't good for recovery, but like Roy's Blazer, Dr. Mario's Super Jump Punch, and Link's Spin Attack, its use as an attack or combo finisher is what makes it shine.

Little Mac 100 percent has the worst recovery. His up-b doesn't auto snap so it can be swatted away with an attack or spiked at will. Side-B has partial intangibility but the range of the move isn't fantastic so a lot of things out-range it. Once you hit him away once, he's basically dead because he requires a double jump to recover most of the time. If he tries to counter one read = death.

That's Litlte Mac off stage in general. Read = Death.

Doesn't Rising Uppercut ledge snap if you're low enough? Unrelated: another nitpick about Little Mac is that he doesn't have a regular gentleman like Captain Falcon or Duck Hunt - yes, Duck Hunt has both a rapid jab and a gentleman. With gentleman jabs and one-version only jabs - Ike's jab, Meta Knight's "jab", or Fox's rapid jab -, you can just hold down the button, but with Little Mac, that results in his rapid jab. You only get his gentleman if you tap it and it's not exactly friendly to input at times. Maybe they'll change that; I hope they do.

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

There are just some characters whose edgeguard game isn't good and not really worth it. Fox lacks large hitboxes for his aerials and none of them do anything stupid like Falco's Fair. Fox's Nair isn't strong, Fair's last hit sends people up at 70 degrees, fast-falling it can lead to a semi-spike, but you have to be confident in your ability to do that since Fox can SD with his fall speed and Fair's total frames, trading with Fair to spike works, but if you do it against a really strong hit and you're at a high percentage like 170%, Fox can accidentally die first, Uair and Bair have narrow hitboxes, so does Reflector, and Dair also sends people up at 60 degrees. Add in his high fall speed, average jump, and low air speed, Fox going off stage isn't worth his time not to mention he can get gimped or punished if he messes up against something like Marth using Dolphin Slash to stage spike him, Pit edgeguarding him instead, or someone with a good recovery can just ignore him like Pikachu or Greninja. Can he do damage? Absolutely, but sometimes, it's better to play it safe and continue fighting on stage or even get a ledge trump.

Edgeguarding is pretty much a character by character basis. Some characters only do damage and can't truly kill or even gimp without a read or spike like Fox, Yoshi?, Lucina?, or Mario? and others can kill, but need to be precise like Ganondorf, Kirby, Zelda, Shulk, or Ike. Characters like ZSS, Pikachu, Sheik, Jigglypuff, and the Pits who are well-rounded enough can go deep, they have setups for edgeguarding, and they can gimp, kill, carry you off stage, spike, etc. easily without major risks. Then you have Little Mac who can edgeguard, but he's going to rely on gimping or live free or die hard with Jolt Haymaker off stage. Stylish, but it's a one chance only deal.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ah... the rage charging Smash punish... Like what was mentioned about Falco dying at 0% to Aether: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9GhnZra0IQ#t=1m33s.

Charging Smashes means you can do more knockback and damage, but getting hit means you receive more knockback. Here's the issue: why do certain moves end up killing you very early when charging a Smash? Even dying at 50% from getting hit by an opponent with max rage while charging a Smash is pushing it. 80% would make more sense, but 0%? I don't know how rage works entirely, but I think this might be an oversight where certain moves, usually with high base knockback like Luma's Utilt or moves with weighted knockback like Mario's Super Jump Punch or Ike's Aether interact very strangely. Ike's Aether's first hit is frame 18-19, only does 6%, has a hit angle of 91, 78, or 90, no base knockback, 160 or 130 weighted knockback, and 100 knockback growth. There is nothing about that suggests it can kill at 0%. Same goes for Luma's Utilt; ground-only hit is frame 3, does 8%, has a hit angle of 88, has a base of 120, and growth of 60, normal hit is frame 4-5, does 4%, has a hit angle of 98 or 93, base of 85 or 80, and growth of 60, and the late hit is frame 6-7, does 3%, has a hit angle of 90, has 80 base, and 60 growth.

Multipliers, friend. They can explode numbers significantly if you're not prepared.

 

[DunnoBro]

Did some extensive side-by-side "could you get out of that" testing with my sister, findings were pretty great overall:

http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

Though there are some issues with catching DI Away double jumps with clay pigeon at higher percents... It usually seems possible but pretty hard and less rewarding vs some characters since you have to smash toss which doesn't combo as well.

It does however seem to give DHD some great potency and consistency in rage mode. People go at the right angles at the right percents, which magnifies the strength of his to keep a lead while also finally not letting rage mode be a one-sided thing.

Any thoughts or concerns of legitimacy are greatly appreciated.

 

[Ffamran]

Multipliers, friend. They can explode numbers significantly if you're not prepared.

I know. You have a "knockback received" multiplier when charging Smashes and rage multiplies knockback... it's just kind of extreme, though, especially when Luma's around meaning you can't pummel Rosalina, you can't even hit her when Rosalina's frozen, and you can end up like Bowser where you die at 0% because you were trying to capitalize from a shield break. They might have to alter the formula or whatever since it's like exponential - I suck at math and understanding math terms - knockback. This might be an oversight like the hit lag thing. It looks "cool", but it hurts characters badly when implemented poorly kind of like Falco's Dair on shield is a massive punish or Ryu's hits weren't exactly safe on shield at all. Well, patch 1.1.0 changed that so it's not as painful.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Did some extensive side-by-side "could you get out of that" testing with my sister, findings were pretty great overall:

http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

Though there are some issues with catching DI Away double jumps with clay pigeon at higher percents... It usually seems possible but pretty hard and less rewarding vs some characters since you have to smash toss which doesn't combo as well.

It does however seem to give DHD some great potency and consistency in rage mode. People go at the right angles at the right percents, which magnifies the strength of his to keep a lead while also finally not letting rage mode be a one-sided thing.

Any thoughts or concerns of legitimacy are greatly appreciated.

<3. I imagine this was probably one of the most satisfying things for you to lab out. It's nice to see things looking up a little for the dog.

 

[Rizen]

Mario upb:
-Frame 3
-Intangible
-Stage Spikes

There's a reason why it's not challenged often.

It also has freaky disjoint O.o Mario might not have the farthest recovery but he has good tools offstage.

 

[Shaya]

1. Two separate 'group' atttacks (most of the time requiring two separate attacking moves, there are some exceptions) that hit at the same time have a disgusting fusion dance affect. If I were to guess from experience, the damage of the move that first interacts is increased by the second one and maintains the other properties of the first striking move. It's possible there's vector mathematics on trajectories as well.
A good example of this is Marth's Up Smash. The "feet" wind hitbox is separate to the sword, in Brawl jump cancelled/running Up Smash would reliably show up in training mode as a single 21% hit, this was the combination of the tipper hitbox (17%) and the feet windbox (4%), the trajectory in this situation would be like the windbox except a lot stronger (i.e. being thrown violently in the reflected horizontal direction) but it wouldn't kill people at 200% or so while sour/tipper sword pure hits would kill at like half that.

2. I'm not sure how often a buff or nerf was suggested for Luigi within the last few pages. We were talking about his design, I brought up that a mechanic should be altered to reduce the silly of one of his kit's moves. I didn't see the usual "make fireballs laggier, dash grab laggier, make down-b not kill at 200%"; just acknowledgement on what those moves/game plans do. Chill.
Understanding a character is pivotal to being able to discuss things at high level. In other words, sorry to the people with little competitive gaming experience who aren't up to snuff in comprehension. The idea of counterplay and universal options is the exact thoroughfare we need for understanding [and hence how to beat it/etc] for development. There's been a half/half-ish proportion in this thread of people going "waaah, luigi isn't Sheik, how dare people put him top 5" and the other half of people with tournament experience who on average think Luigi is inane, not in the "broken" type of way, but rather what he does, how he does it and why he does it. The former group (which isn't even all Luigi's, I got a lot out of some of the Luigi-sided responses and information) have not made any contributions to the discussion but ******* about the state of the thread. To me that's sad; maybe I'm in the wrong about what's good or bad for discussion but I've thoroughly enjoyed the last few pages* before triggered-usually-poor-contributors decided it was time.

I think the general conclusion of this recent discussion has been the acknowledgement of: Luigi's dominance at most levels of play, in particular at local and regional level, but average or worse ability at top/national level (and a bit as to WHY). His strong high/top tier match up spread (relative consensus on having an advantage over some of the strongest threats). Why it's so much different to Brawl in dealing with him (engine, buffed dash grab, nerfed damage on pokes and weaker short hop games). And to a lesser extent, that while he is as he is, he makes local-level events with his inclusion look ridiculous when how he pragmatically acts is by many measure's sequentially static.


3. Marth's tipper fsmash has traditionally been one of the highest base knock back moves in the game. Isn't the base still like 100 on an 18 damage move?
Add rage on top of that; which will result in killing lightweights close to the side at 30%, add an opponent charging an attack and given the right stage position, killing at 0/19% doesn't seem unlikely.

-

Even if recoveries are better in this game, edge guarding isn't that much stronger on just about any character at all.
The leeway one has to capitalize on recoveries exist, but they're all inordinately complicated. Watch some Brawl sets for 5 to 10 minutes and compare to what happens in Smash4 and you should immediately see and understand why. Being on the ledge itself for ledge guarding is close to non-existent, there is little protection given towards the aggressor over the opponent recovering. The speed/distance a character can jump, use a recovery special and grab the ledge makes capitalizing or likelihood of success very low, when considering invincibility mechanics, trumping and the very low active frames on most character's attacks. The difficulty rating with our current understanding is much too high to bother.
A character like Falco or Sheik have it really easy. Falco's fair and nair are fast, lowish end lag, good "gimping" power (angles of trajectory) and lucky lucky LONG duration/multi hit. Falco's jump height/speed and fall speed means he can be on stage, run/jump off, and cover an entire sub-stage height range within a few frames on a move that starts killing lightweights without rage at 100%. The way Falco flattens his body on this and is essentially completely blanketed in hitboxes (so unless you have large disjoints you aren't ever not at least trading with it, which is bad for just about everyone) makes his risk worthwhile and likelihood for success a lot higher than just about every other character in the cast.

Everyone else is dealing with worse specs and worse tools for beating the safety of this game's recoveries. Those poor tools are way too risky to use (as some have mentioned) because failure gives major positional advantage to your recovering opponent, heck, you can easily be reversed and get yourself killed because by the time they're free to act off the ledge, you're below them (usually good, but when gravity will work against you and get you killed, it isn't) with large frame disadvantages and the requirement of having to jump right near an opponent with very little mix up ability.

We'll likely get better at it, my edge guarding/gimping in Brawl with Marth was something I wasn't particularly amazing at until 2-3 years into the game. I do believe the conditions are a lot tougher now, but who knows how well we'll be tuned to the right positioning/timing after a couple of years.

 

[TTTTTsd]

1. Two separate 'group' atttacks (most of the time requiring two separate attacking moves, there are some exceptions) that hit at the same time have a disgusting fusion dance affect. If I were to guess from experience, the damage of the move that first interacts is increased by the second one and maintains the other properties of the first striking move. It's possible there's vector mathematics on trajectories as well.
A good example of this is Marth's Up Smash. The "feet" wind hitbox is separate to the sword, in Brawl jump cancelled/running Up Smash would reliably show up in training mode as a single 21% hit, this was the combination of the tipper hitbox (17%) and the feet windbox (4%), the trajectory in this situation would be like the windbox except a lot stronger (i.e. being thrown violently in the reflected horizontal direction) but it wouldn't kill people at 200% or so while sour/tipper sword pure hits would kill at like half that.

2. I'm not sure how often a buff or nerf was suggested for Luigi within the last few pages. We were talking about his design, I brought up that a mechanic should be altered to reduce the silly of one of his kit's moves. I didn't see the usual "make fireballs laggier, dash grab laggier, make down-b not kill at 200%"; just acknowledgement on what those moves/game plans do. Chill.
Understanding a character is pivotal to being able to discuss things at high level. In other words, sorry to the people with little competitive gaming experience who aren't up to snuff in comprehension. The idea of counterplay and universal options is the exact thoroughfare we need for understanding [and hence how to beat it/etc] for development. There's been a half/half-ish proportion in this thread of people going "waaah, luigi isn't Sheik, how dare people put him top 5" and the other half of people with tournament experience who on average think Luigi is inane, not in the "broken" type of way, but rather what he does, how he does it and why he does it. The former group (which isn't even all Luigi's, I got a lot out of some of the Luigi-sided responses and information) have not made any contributions to the discussion but ******* about the state of the thread. To me that's sad; maybe I'm in the wrong about what's good or bad for discussion but I've thoroughly enjoyed the last few pages* before triggered-usually-poor-contributors decided it was time.

I think the general conclusion of this recent discussion has been the acknowledgement of: Luigi's dominance at most levels of play, in particular at local and regional level, but average or worse ability at top/national level (and a bit as to WHY). His strong high/top tier match up spread (relative consensus on having an advantage over some of the strongest threats). Why it's so much different to Brawl in dealing with him (engine, buffed dash grab, nerfed damage on pokes and weaker short hop games). And to a lesser extent, that while he is as he is, he makes local-level events with his inclusion look ridiculous when how he pragmatically acts is by many measure's sequentially static.


3. Marth's tipper fsmash has traditionally been one of the highest base knock back moves in the game. Isn't the base still like 100 on an 18 damage move?
Add rage on top of that; which will result in killing lightweights close to the side at 30%, add an opponent charging an attack and given the right stage position, killing at 0/19% doesn't seem unlikely.

-

Even if recoveries are better in this game, edge guarding isn't that much stronger on just about any character at all.
The leeway one has to capitalize on recoveries exist, but they're all inordinately complicated. Watch some Brawl sets for 5 to 10 minutes and compare to what happens in Smash4 and you should immediately see and understand why. Being on the ledge itself for ledge guarding is close to non-existent, there is little protection given towards the aggressor over the opponent recovering. The speed/distance a character can jump, use a recovery special and grab the ledge makes capitalizing or likelihood of success very low, when consideration invincibility mechanics, trumping and the general game decision of having very low active frames on attacks. The difficulty rating with our current understanding is much too high to bother.
A character like Falco or Sheik have it really easy. Falco's fair and nair are fast, lowish end lag, good "gimping" power (angles of trajectory) and lucky lucky LONG duration/multi hit. Falco's jump height/speed and fall speed means he can be on stage, run/jump off, and cover an entire sub-stage height range within a few frames on a move that starts killing lightweights without rage at 100%. The way Falco flattens his body on this and is essentially completely blanketed in hitboxes (so unless you have large disjoints you aren't ever not at least trading with it, which is bad for just about everyone) makes his risk lower and likelihood for success a lot higher than just about every other character in the cast.

Everyone else is dealing with worse specs and worse tools for beating the safety of this game's recoveries. Those poor tools are way too risky to use (as some have mentioned) because failure gives major positional advantage to your recovering opponent, heck, you can easily be reversed and get yourself killed because by the time they're free to act off the ledge, you're below them (usually good, but when gravity will work against you and get you killed, it isn't) with large frame disadvantages and the requirement of having to jump right near an opponent with very little mix up ability.

We'll likely get better at it, my edge guarding/gimping in Brawl with Marth was something I wasn't particularly amazing at until 2-3 years into the game. I do believe the conditions are a lot tougher now, but who knows how well we'll be tuned to the right positioning/timing after a couple of years.

I'd like to add Dr. Mario on the list of characters who have good moves for edgeguarding, it's mostly Dr. Tornado vs. low recoveries because of the large amount of active frames it has, but for the most part I agree. I think our edgeguarding WILL get better over time as we develop but I do feel like certain characters just can NOT be edgeguarded, yeah.....regardless, I think a lot of it is adapting to the new ledge mechanics, which I imagine is very innately difficult. Ryu Nair is also good for stuffing low recoveries when timed right, but yeah, this list is rather small for now but I'm sure as we really get the hang of everything, it'll all come naturally...

We'll get there man....hopefully.

 

[Asdioh]

Did some extensive side-by-side "could you get out of that" testing with my sister, findings were pretty great overall:

http://i.imgur.com/kxkdUSY.webm

Though there are some issues with catching DI Away double jumps with clay pigeon at higher percents... It usually seems possible but pretty hard and less rewarding vs some characters since you have to smash toss which doesn't combo as well.

It does however seem to give DHD some great potency and consistency in rage mode. People go at the right angles at the right percents, which magnifies the strength of his to keep a lead while also finally not letting rage mode be a one-sided thing.

Any thoughts or concerns of legitimacy are greatly appreciated.

Why not make a video about it, instead of squishing it into a webm?

 

[Nobie]

Re: combined attacks doing ridiculous things

As Mewtwo, I forward smashed a Pac-Man standing on top of his fire hydrant. Due to the way that f-smash works, the impact of the attack and the launching of hydrant happened at the exact same time, and killed Pac-Man much earlier than if f-smash's impact had linked into a bouncing hydrant.

 

[Ffamran]

3. Marth's tipper fsmash has traditionally been one of the highest base knock back moves in the game. Isn't the base still like 100 on an 18 damage move?
Add rage on top of that; which will result in killing lightweights close to the side at 30%, add an opponent charging an attack and given the right stage position, killing at 0/19% doesn't seem unlikely.

It's 80 base and 80 growth on an 18% move. The closest I could get to a Side Smash like that are Link's second hit of Side Smash that does 12% or 13% with 85 base and 85 growth, Roy's that does 20% or 17% with 70 base and 70 growth, Ness's Side Smash that does 18%, 20%, or 22% with 70 base and 67 growth, and Pikachu's second hitbox (frame 18) for Side Smash that does 18% with 60 base and 75 growth. Granted, all of these moves are frame 14 and above with only Marth's being frame 10. Not Rosalina or Luma's Side Smash, but the fact you can throw out a frame 3, 8% Utilt with 120 base and 60 growth on the ground, frame 4-5, 4% with 85 or 80 base and 60 growth, or a late hit, frame 6-10, 3% with 80 base and 30 growth is what's alarming. On reaction, you can punish charged Smashes severely. Couldn't they have used high knockback growth instead? As for the weighted knockback issue... I don't know why unless the game's somehow misinterpreting that as base knockback. Oh, and DK has a Side Smash that does 20% with 91 base and 30 growth.

Edit:

1. Two separate 'group' atttacks (most of the time requiring two separate attacking moves, there are some exceptions) that hit at the same time have a disgusting fusion dance affect. If I were to guess from experience, the damage of the move that first interacts is increased by the second one and maintains the other properties of the first striking move. It's possible there's vector mathematics on trajectories as well.
A good example of this is Marth's Up Smash. The "feet" wind hitbox is separate to the sword, in Brawl jump cancelled/running Up Smash would reliably show up in training mode as a single 21% hit, this was the combination of the tipper hitbox (17%) and the feet windbox (4%), the trajectory in this situation would be like the windbox except a lot stronger (i.e. being thrown violently in the reflected horizontal direction) but it wouldn't kill people at 200% or so while sour/tipper sword pure hits would kill at like half that.

A Rosalina + Luma Side Smash makes me sad... You can get 17% to 19% and 111 knockback growth assuming Luma's 165 knockback growth doesn't override it...

 

[DunnoBro]

Why not make a video about it, instead of squishing it into a webm?

I don't really know that much about it yet but still want to talk about it essentially. There's also potential dair > frisbee > dair loops into kos or high damage.

I've been up about 60 hours now labbing him

I love this character lol

 

[TriTails]

Since Ffamran is talking about frame data, here's a fact of the day:

Luigi's D-throw was unchanged from Brawl.

6%, angle of 80, base at 75, growth at 30, and FAF at frame 40.

 

[Shaya]

I don't really know that much about it yet but still want to talk about it essentially. There's also potential dair > frisbee > dair loops into kos or high damage.

I've been up about 60 hours now labbing him

I love this character lol

My thoughts on this are kinda like "how did this not be considered a thing at some point". Considering the player controls the frisby/dish to some extent and it seems to be multihitting in the process.
But I would recommend you sleep now Sir. At 30 hours, stuff like grab release on Meta Knight in Brawl gets you guaranteed tipper forward smashes; who knows what deep dark world you'll reach if you continue on (but oh, seriously; at least make sure you're drinking lots of water).

 

[TTTTTsd]

My thoughts on this are kinda like "how did this not be considered a thing at some point". Considering the player controls the frisby/dish to some extent and it seems to be multihitting in the process.
But I would recommend you sleep now Sir. At 30 hours, stuff like grab release on Meta Knight in Brawl gets you guaranteed tipper forward smashes; who knows what deep dark world you'll reach if you continue on (but oh, seriously; at least make sure you're drinking lots of water).

DunnoBro being driven into the brink of insanity as he slowly realizes that sleep is only for humans as he ascends the mortal coil.

The next Xanadu will only be flashes and clay pigeons. But seriously @ DunnoBro you're doing good things for the character by labbing, but please get some sleep and hydration lol. At least now when you go to Xanadu you'll be able to show us this stuff in action (i.e. set play, all that) hopefully, it seems to partially amend DH's biggest problem.

 

[Rikkhan]

@ Shaya while I agree with you and I think a nerf/change to luigi would be pretty well deserved I just want to point that luigi is very vulnerable if he recovers horizontaly and a lot of people ignore edgeguarding because as you said most characters are very safe at recovering but luigi is not. I'm pretty sure that if people learn how to edgeguard luigi he would not be that dominant at local/regional level, even players like Boss or Mr. Concon get wrecked offstage so in way this kind of compesates his abusive fireball and grab game.

 

[Megamang]

One of my favorite things about this game is that the ledge feels less like a death zone, where the best offstage character is highly favored, and more like a corner in a traditional fighter. I already feel advantaged when my opponent is on the ledge, because if I read his ledge option I can score an early kill. Even a weak throw resets this situation; if you keep someone holding the ledge you are likely outdamaging them

 

[Vipermoon]

Since Ffamran is talking about frame data, here's a fact of the day:

Luigi's D-throw was unchanged from Brawl.

6%, angle of 80, base at 75, growth at 30, and FAF at frame 40.

Wait when is the actual throw/damage dealt? That's and the FAF is the most important thing (I know it'll be the same as Brawl but I want to know for lab reasons).

 

[Mr. Johan]

So "Fusion" attacks do exist after all then? Good to know. Robin just never had a chance to use such a thing until the lag cooldown on Arcthunder from the last patch. It's essentially a mechanical buff interlaced with a speed buff.

Though that calls into question why Fsmash doesn't experience some odd effect from the Arcthunder lock, since it definitely hits earlier than a Dair so it would have no problem hitting during the lock. Hmm.

 

[TriTails]

Wait when is the actual throw/damage dealt? That's and the FAF is the most important thing (I know it'll be the same as Brawl but I want to know for lab reasons).

Don't know cause I don't play Brawl bruh, and I don't think there's a data for that. Kurogane doesn't have the frame in which the damage dealt in Smash 4, and IDK on Brawl because I just tuned in Brawl Luigi boards and find out the values are the same.

But I do believe both D-throws' FAF is 40.

Still, it was surprising to find Luigi's 'buffed' D-throw was only changed in animation.

 

[Vipermoon]

Don't know cause I don't play Brawl bruh, and I don't think there's a data for that. Kurogane doesn't have the frame in which the damage dealt in Smash 4, and IDK on Brawl because I just tuned in Brawl Luigi boards and find out the values are the same.

But I do believe both D-throws' FAF is 40.

Still, it was surprising to find Luigi's 'buffed' D-throw was only changed in animation.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/luigi

At ThrowLw... Okay IASA 41, so end frame 40. But IDK what to make of what it says at frame 18. No where does it show it dealing damage and if it were at frame 18... well I doubt that because 1. You seem to have more time than that to DI and 2. A lot of his follow-ups shouldn't work as easily if he lagged for 22 frames (especially at low percents where you have less hitstun).

 

[TriTails]

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/144/luigi

At ThrowLw... Okay IASA 41, so end frame 40. But IDK what to make of what it says at frame 18. No where does it show it dealing damage and if it were at frame 18... well I doubt that because 1. You seem to have more time than that to DI and 2. A lot of his follow-ups shouldn't work as easily if he lagged for 22 frames (especially at low percents where you have less hitstun).

...How does one read things like that I have no clue.

Assuming I got the sound portion right, I believe the frame 18 is the sound where Luigi briefly says 'Hugh!' (I hear it when lagging in FG. Go figure . IIRC you can also hear it in 1/4th speed.) and the frame 20 is the 'butt lands on the ground sound'. I don't think there's anymore sound after that.

So... the frame it hits is somewhere around frame 20?

 

[Ffamran]

Brawl Luigi's frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/exte...ing-for-luigi-added-u-tilt-smash-gifs.175652/ and http://smashboards.com/threads/the-secret-diary-luigis-hitbox-repository.297000/. I think there's a common trend where Brawl frame data lacks throw end lag data, so kind of useless for unless you just want to compare what happened to Luigi from Brawl to Smash 4. Anyway, what the hell kind of game is Brawl? Frame 12 dash grab? What is this? A tether grab? Sure as hell ain't a tether grab unless Luigi was planned to use the Poltergust as a grab which would be pretty cool.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So this is something.

This can be done with any character who has a chargeable special that can be canceled with a shield. That includes all the characters the video creator listed, and when I tested other specials, this also applies to Sonic and his Side B Spin Dash (before it can't be shield canceled), and Diddy Kong with his Peanut Popgun. However, the special move also can't have stopgaps inbetween the charges; Pacman's Bonus Fruit, Sheik's Needles, and Donkey Kong's Giant Punch do not allow for this type of cancel. Robin's apparently an exception due to the animation itself imitating a continuous stream of energy despite having four levels.

This helps Diddy and Mario considerably, to let them control space and throw out aerials (And Monkey Flip) at a whim without needing to return to shield. Sonic gets to SH Bair out of reverse Spin Dash rather than FH them, and this helps Robin, Samus, and Miss Fit for clear reasons.

 

[TriTails]

Brawl Luigi's frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/exte...ing-for-luigi-added-u-tilt-smash-gifs.175652/ and http://smashboards.com/threads/the-secret-diary-luigis-hitbox-repository.297000/. I think there's a common trend where Brawl frame data lacks throw data, so kind of useless for unless you just want to compare what happened to Luigi from Brawl to Smash 4. Anyway, what the hell kind of game is Brawl? Frame 12 dash grab? What is this? A tether grab? Sure as hell ain't a tether grab unless Luigi was planned to use the Poltergust as a grab which would be pretty cool.

Which one is the landing lag data in the first link? Landlag and landlag IASA? Because wtf Luigi F-air having 30 frames of landing lag. And I though S4's Luigi's F-air was already bad in landing...

And I don't play Brawl, so IDK on what kind of game is it. But honestly, a grab from ICs means death. What. The. ****.

And using Poltergust would be actually a cool idea, but... I don't fancy tethers. But 12 frame of dash grab? That's the same frame as S4 Link's standing grab. And Luigi grabs with his bare hands.

And the 2nd link has throw data, actually.

 

[Vipermoon]

Which one is the landing lag data in the first link? Landlag and landlag IASA? Because wtf Luigi F-air having 30 frames of landing lag. And I though S4's Luigi's F-air was already bad in landing...

And I don't play Brawl, so IDK on what kind of game is it. But honestly, a grab from ICs means death. What. The. ****.

And using Poltergust would be actually a cool idea, but... I don't fancy tethers. But 12 frame of dash grab? That's the same frame as S4 Link's standing grab. And Luigi grabs with his bare hands.

And the 2nd link has throw data, actually.

To be fair, most characters in Brawl and Melee had crappy dash grabs. They were universally buffed in both start-up and lag (I'm sure there are exceptions). Frame 12 was still bad for a dash grab even Brawl.

You're looking at the wrong thing. That's the animation of the landing. Looking at Landlag IASA.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I gotta say, this thread is funny. A while back I can't remember if it was @Ikes or @Speed Boost who posted the exact video Rikahn posted. Ikes/Speed Boost was treated a lot differently from Rikahn when he posted the vid.

@DanGR
I cannot tell you how many characters would be happy if their jabs could kill (even at high percents, which you made it sound so bad). Seriously, all the halo attacks either need retouching or others need to get on that level. It snuffs ADs many times while having good KG and KB. Both Bowser and DK have strong uairs that do 13% on hit and are intangible for their hit frames, but their uairs leave their hurtbox exposed and slightly extended. Rosalina's does like 10% but does greater KG and KB as well as staying out for 10 frames. Bruh. Also, when that dude said that Rosa hits like a heavy, it means that Rosa has options to kill that aren't through charge specials, or smashes at decent percents. She doesn't need to hit like Ganon to hit like a heavy for goodness sakes. That being said, thank goodness for her high learning curve and height (both of these issues will lessen as the meta finally takes off....hoping for an Apex 2012 esque situation where after that point, we all got better in Brawl).

 

[Ffamran]

Pointless local tournament update about a random character: Soronie's Link just took, I believe, 3rd if I'm reading this right: https://smash.gg/tournament/come-on-and-ban-32/brackets. She almost took out Trevonte's Sheik. She is one badass Link. So, that's KirinBlaze, Scizor, and Soronie. Pretty sure I'm missing some other Links. Now, maybe if she could do the same with Shulk...

 

[HFlash]

Pointless local tournament update about a random character: Soronie's Link just took, I believe, 3rd if I'm reading this right: https://smash.gg/tournament/come-on-and-ban-32/brackets. She almost took out Trevonte's Sheik. She is one badass Link. So, that's KirinBlaze, Scizor, and Soronie. Pretty sure I'm missing some other Links. Now, maybe if she could do the same with Shulk...

To be fair, Trevonte was trying alot of unsafe shenanigans that first game, and barely lost by tip nair stage spikes. He was most likely messing around the first game (as he often does on stream games, i.e. he went Ganon vs another Ganon for the lolz a week or two ago). Especially considering he was playing his girlfriend. After game two, he played seriously and quite efficiently annihilated her. Not because she is bad or anything, but because of well... Shiek things. I can't comment before that match because I had only seen her play Tre and the Sonic before him.

 

[Zillo]

No, he actually beat all of them. Ally lost to Slayerz and Concon.



You overrate Pacman's results (I dont know much about DK) and underrate Peach's. He literally mentioned Umeki, but other than those there are Peaches such as Crow, llod and EOE (and probably more) who have also enjoyed success using solo Peach. Meanwhile Abadango gets first using Pacman in GF, but aside from Pacman he also used Rosalina and Meta Knight a lot. In a Japanese interview, he said that he was unsure whether his Pacman could beat Umeki's Peach, which is why he used his Meta Knight. He probably felt the same va taranito's Ness, against whom he used Rosalina. Abadango's results dont necessarily proof Pacman's viability as a solo main. He did show that Pacman may be a good choice vs Sheik and some other characters though.

Anyway, by your logic we might as well kick Pikachu and Villager down. Even though they have a few other players getting results with them, ESAM and Ranai are by far superior and the only ones getting really big results. Although some do feel these characters are overrated because of said players, imo the fact that a player can get such high results using a particular character is already proof enough of that character's potential. Having one player getting high results is much more representative of a character 's potential since they show how truly powerful a character can be when played at a high level, than having a lot of players getting average results. Getting high results is very difficult and definitely not something that can be done with every character. Expecting high results of many players for a character that isnt popular seem very exigent to me.

(also I dont see why you're picking on Peach when you have characters like Roy in the same tier)

Thmx. I'm a peach main myself. Crow, EOE, LlOD, dark.pch and slayerz are all great players w my gurl peach.
XD Also malificent is Crow also. some ppl didn't know that for awhile. the hosts call him by both names in
the same match. XD