Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Green L]

I'd also like to point out the lack of edgeguarding is also due to the lack of effort. If players put in the effort to edgeguard as if the opponent is little mac or dr mario, then matches would end quicker.

 

[Zelder]

Not really feasible, because there's some characters you have to really respect off stage. For example, Wii Fit Trainer - her incredible up-B, high jump, ability to stall + launch a projectile at the same time, and good (?) air speed make edge guarding a tough prospect. Plus, once you get spiked by her side-b you'll never ever want to challenge her again (seriously it's absolutely devastating).

 

[Luco]

I'm not sure why Ness supposedly loses to Luigi? What is that claim based on?

It's actually legit. It's actually kinda simple when you think about it. Luigi and Ness basically have the same gameplan. They want to grab to rack up damage or for stage control, and then they want to grab for the kill. Occasionally aerial for the kill or (in Luigi's case) (U)smash. Luigi's fireballs are slightly risky because magnet cancels but also not really, in reality you might get 20% of those fireballs, though it's important because it disincentivises him to use more, slightly. Neutral is quite rock-paper-scissors-like, where most aerials will be safe on Luigi's shield but his Fair beats out most of our aerials but is punishable on block but he can dashgrab said block.

And yeah, we get 30% or so off the average grab at low percents as compared to Luigi's 40%+, and we kill at around the same percents, but Luigi is a bit more consistent and (I think) overall slightly earlier, so basically he ends up doing everything we want to do in this MU but just slightly better.

It's more complex but that's a basic gist of it.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah like seriously. It's not a case of "lacking effort" what does that even mean?

The plain truth is that the risk/reward ratio of offstage edgeguarding is usually not good enough.

Against like Mac or Doc, you risk little going off stage because their recoveries are so short and linear, and you are almost certainly not going to die for it. Doc's Cape can cause issues but you're not risking anything challenging that either unless you use some sort of special that puts you in helpless.

Against most characters though, airdodges are so good in this game and recoveries are so long in general, you can swat them away 100 times only to have them keep coming back. And when you miss an attack, they've already recovered and you've lost literally all your stage control.

Recoveries being good in this game does not make edgeguarding easier. It means you can generally go deeper than ever to edgeguard, but that doesn't mean anything if you still can't kill anyone who's recovering.

And against a lot of characters you risk outright dying offstage. The aforementioned Wii Fit has two spikes to murder you with if you try to challenge her offstage. Rosalina is a total pain to edgeguard because of Luma. Kirby can easily ruin your day by killing edgeguarders with Dair. And so on and so on.

So the question usually is, why would you go offstage to edgeguard when you have a low chance of getting rewarded effectively and a high chance of losing all your stage control or even dying?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah like seriously. It's not a case of "lacking effort" what does that even mean?

The plain truth is that the risk/reward ratio of offstage edgeguarding is usually not good enough.

Against like Mac or Doc, you risk little going off stage because their recoveries are so short and linear, and you are almost certainly not going to die for it. Doc's Cape can cause issues but you're not risking anything challenging that either unless you use some sort of special that puts you in helpless.

Against most characters though, airdodges are so good in this game and recoveries are so long in general, you can swat them away 100 times only to have them keep coming back. And when you miss an attack, they've already recovered and you've lost literally all your stage control.

Recoveries being good in this game does not make edgeguarding easier. It means you can generally go deeper than ever to edgeguard, but that doesn't mean anything if you still can't kill anyone who's recovering.

And against a lot of characters you risk outright dying offstage. The aforementioned Wii Fit has two spikes to murder you with if you try to challenge her offstage. Rosalina is a total pain to edgeguard because of Luma. Kirby can easily ruin your day by killing edgeguarders with Dair.

So the question usually is, why would you go offstage to edgeguard when you have a low chance of getting rewarded effectively and a high chance of losing all your stage control or even dying?

Even Dr. Mario's recovery can be annoying to challenge because of how his Down-B works with its very long hitboxes that cover him quite well + the aforementioned cape. Really for chars that are no threat coming back it's like, Little Mac, uhhhh......

It's mostly airdodges that make recovery pretty easy in this game though, to be real.

 

[outfoxd]

Not really feasible, because there's some characters you have to really respect off stage. For example, Wii Fit Trainer - her incredible up-B, high jump, ability to stall + launch a projectile at the same time, and good (?) air speed make edge guarding a tough prospect. Plus, once you get spiked by her side-b you'll never ever want to challenge her again (seriously it's absolutely devastating).

As someone whose main training partner is a WFt, i can attest to the spike. Header has spiked me from up and just behind her head a couple times. And literally every time i go to hit him offstage and miss i can expect a 50/50 chance he's going to send me down to hell.

I actually picked WFT up for doubles and for header.

 

[TriTails]

Even Dr. Mario's recovery can be annoying to challenge because of how his Down-B works with its very long hitboxes that cover him quite well.

It kinda shares the same weaknesses Luigi Cyclone has by being so laggy at the end. However, Doc uses his Tornado more for horizontal recovery as opposed to Luigi's vertical/diagonal one, and the end lag doesn't stall (Luigi Cyclone generally doesn't, as long as you're not rising with it, which is usually a bad situation but that's another point entirely), so it isn't as exposed as Luigi Cyclone. But it's still there.

IIRC his SJP also doesn't have invincibility, but instead may shoryuken you for a stage spike.

But when people doesn't even try to spike down a Green Missile is when you want to pull a Thinkaman and flip a table.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'd also like to point out the lack of edgeguarding is also due to the lack of effort. If players put in the effort to edgeguard as if the opponent is little mac or dr mario, then matches would end quicker.

Are you implying that top level players don't try to edgeguard?
Usually, if they don't there is a good reason. Example: you can't really edgeguard Shiek. Or if it's a character like Charizard, you don't always challenge it becuase you can die.
Besides, you don't even have to edgeguard little mac. He usually can't make it back to begin with. So that's not a good comparison.

 

[TriTails]

Are you implying that top level players don't try to edgeguard?
Usually, if they don't there is a good reason. Example: you can't really edgeguard Shiek. Or if it's a character like Charizard, you don't always challenge it becuase you can die.
Besides, you don't even have to edgeguard little mac. He usually can't make it back to begin with. So that's not a good comparison.

Stage spiking someone, IMO, is better for edgeguards rather than just doing raw slap to them. Most top players haven't even get teching stage spikes down to an art yet, and often times they are very unpredictable.

But they ARE situational. But since the most popular stage (Smashville) along with runnerups (Battlefield, and iirc also Dream Land 64) have edges that curve diagonally downwards, you can pretty much stage spike them and they're not coming back. Even in walled stages such as Duck Hunt or walled omegas you can B-air someone, have them bounce back on the wall and watch as you just pulled a successful edgeguard and possibly just straight up killing them (Lol Ganon's B-air).

I have no doubts teching stage spikes will be a thing in the future, but watching a top player like Mr. CC getting stage spiked twice in a row suggests stage spike is definitely a thing for at least quite some time.

 

[Yikarur]

Lol @ people saying Luigi invalidates characters...
Luigi invalidates low to mid level players. (Much like Yoshi) while having no learning curve.
Thats all. Luigi himself is not a Top Tier character and everyone who knows how to play the match-up correctly knows that Luigis mobility totally screws him over. But playing the most optimal way against Luigi is so boring that a lot of people wouldnt attempt it.

 

[Amadeus9]

Lol @ people saying Luigi invalidates characters...
Luigi invalidates low to mid level players. (Much like Yoshi) while having no learning curve.
Thats all. Luigi himself is not a Top Tier character and everyone who knows how to play the match-up correctly knows that Luigis mobility totally screws him over. But playing the most optimal way against Luigi is so boring that a lot of people wouldnt attempt it.

That's the issue at hand. It's frustrating to even watch as a spectator.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bowser's Uair does 15%, not 13. Carry on.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's the issue at hand. It's frustrating to even watch as a spectator.

Smash isn't designed to be a spectator's sport. People need to stop playing it like it is one...

 

[Green L]

I'm just trying to explain how redundant it is saying that edgeguarding has no reward yet most players don't take any risks. If a player takes no risk and doesn't edgeguard, then of course the opponent will get back for free. A character with an easy spike like Ganon could sent Pit to the abyss while he uses up b. My point is no risk= no reward. Some people are acting like edgeguarding is some impossible feat if it's not little mac or dr. Mario

 

[bc1910]

Smash isn't designed to be a spectator's sport. People need to stop playing it like it is one...

Thousands of Melee fans disagree with you.

 

[Charoite]

That's the issue at hand. It's frustrating to even watch as a spectator.

Well then just deal with it, being bad to spectate or watch isn't something that needs to be taken into account when balancing a game, becuase you have bias, against certain playstyles, or characters.

 

[Zelder]

Any Pit that even comes within the neighborhood of getting spiked by Ganondorf is a piss poor Pit. He has four jumps, fast long lasting aerials, a huge up-b (that admittedly doesn't auto snap), and oh yeah, he can still air dodge. Come on, man.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm just trying to explain how redundant it is saying that edgeguarding has no reward yet most players don't take any risks. If a player takes no risk and doesn't edgeguard, then of course the opponent will get back for free. A character with an easy spike like Ganon could sent Pit to the abyss while he uses up b. My point is no risk= no reward. Some people are acting like edgeguarding is some impossible feat if it's not little mac or dr. Mario

Go on smashladder and play a sheik please, then come back.

 

[Nobie]

By the way, Nietono and Rain are playing against each other on Nietono's stream. Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight.

http://www.twitch.tv/nietono1123

 

[LancerStaff]

Thousands of Melee fans disagree with you.

Even Melee could use some cold optimization. The absolute best players aren't the ones that go for hype... It's the ones that play optimally.

Any Pit that even comes within the neighborhood of getting spiked by Ganondorf is a piss poor Pit. He has four jumps, fast long lasting aerials, a huge up-b (that admittedly doesn't auto snap), and oh yeah, he can still air dodge. Come on, man.

Uspecial ledge snaps, just during the later half of the move. In practice it has little effect on the move's use since Pit has so many ways to position himself and just aiming it differently (like into a wall slightly) is usually enough to get a ledge snap in whatever "awkward" position you're in.

Don't forget arrows either. Since there's about ten less frames of lag in the air using them while recovering is a great option, even while below because shooting up is a thing.

 

[wedl!!]

No character is particularly good at edgeguarding Pit, unless you happen to be a yellow rat with bad base stats or a turban-wearing ninja with countless needles up your sleeves.

 

[HFlash]

Smash isn't designed to be a spectator's sport. People need to stop playing it like it is one...

Smash was designed to be a party game. The whole existence of the website (aside from the purely social areas) is against the original ideology of Sakurai making the game. Now some people like to watch sports, or other video games, why can't smash fans enjoy some high level play?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Smash was designed to be a party game. The whole existence of the website (aside from the purely social areas) is against the original ideology of Sakurai making the game. Now some people like to watch sports, or other video games, why can't smash fans enjoy some high level play?

Unless you're a marxist or a philosophical offshoot, you've been thinking too much Shingeki no Kyojin.

 

[ARGHETH]

Unless you're a marxist or a philosophical offshoot, you've been thinking too much Shingeki no Kyojin.

...What does Attack on Titan have to do with anything?

The original design argument really doesn't apply here, since this was really designed for 4v4 FFA with items on, not what we play. Alternatively, 1v1 Omegas only.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Interesting, some of the people on Shaya's list thought Zard was mid or upper mid from previous changes.

Wonder how he ended up where he is, instead of the unordered list.

Then again that also asks who is a super notable Zard running around.

 

[HFlash]

Unless you're a marxist or a philosophical offshoot, you've been thinking too much Shingeki no Kyojin.

All I'm saying is that the whole tournament/competitive smash scene was something that the developer verbally said did not want to happen to smash. Nothing too philosophical there.

Then again that also asks who is a super notable Zard running around.

Remember that alot of the underwhelming characters that have gotten significant buffs did get the buffs fairly recently. I would say characters such as Ike, Marth, Robin, Zard, Lucas, and so on at their present state have a fighting chance to go toe to toe with the high/top tiers in the game. Give it some time, and I'm sure these recently buffed characters will get their representation. Ike and Robin already have some tourney play.

 

[thegrovylekid]

As a Question, what makes better than ?

 

[HFlash]

As a Question, what makes better than ?

The differences between them don't even merit a different placement in a tier list. If anything, one or the other may be better depending on the stage, whether it's better to kill off the side or off the top with their respective side B.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm just trying to explain how redundant it is saying that edgeguarding has no reward yet most players don't take any risks. If a player takes no risk and doesn't edgeguard, then of course the opponent will get back for free. A character with an easy spike like Ganon could sent Pit to the abyss while he uses up b. My point is no risk= no reward. Some people are acting like edgeguarding is some impossible feat if it's not little mac or dr. Mario

Risk reward is a 2 way street pal. Going for edgeguards can get you killed more often than not depending on the character.
There's a reason why people don't pick Ganon and go for the Dair spike on Shiek all the time.

Competitive play doesn't work like that.

 

[Vipermoon]

Risk reward is a 2 way street pal. Going for edgeguards can get you killed more often than not depending on the character.
There's a reason why people don't pick Ganon and go for the Dair spike on Shiek all the time.

Competitive play doesn't work like that.

Exactly. Ganon can't usually do something like that. If I go on FG and play someone with less experience and they try to go offstage as I'm recovering; I double jump Bair as I go past them and then they become the hunted. It can't be that easy, this really is a two-way street. I say this but I edgeguard all the freakin time, however, I don't usually do it in a risky manner especially against someone competent.

 

[Planty]

Yeah like seriously. It's not a case of "lacking effort" what does that even mean?

The plain truth is that the risk/reward ratio of offstage edgeguarding is usually not good enough.

Against like Mac or Doc, you risk little going off stage because their recoveries are so short and linear, and you are almost certainly not going to die for it. Doc's Cape can cause issues but you're not risking anything challenging that either unless you use some sort of special that puts you in helpless.

Against most characters though, airdodges are so good in this game and recoveries are so long in general, you can swat them away 100 times only to have them keep coming back. And when you miss an attack, they've already recovered and you've lost literally all your stage control.

Recoveries being good in this game does not make edgeguarding easier. It means you can generally go deeper than ever to edgeguard, but that doesn't mean anything if you still can't kill anyone who's recovering.

And against a lot of characters you risk outright dying offstage. The aforementioned Wii Fit has two spikes to murder you with if you try to challenge her offstage. Rosalina is a total pain to edgeguard because of Luma. Kirby can easily ruin your day by killing edgeguarders with Dair. And so on and so on.

So the question usually is, why would you go offstage to edgeguard when you have a low chance of getting rewarded effectively and a high chance of losing all your stage control or even dying?

Luma can't attack while Rosalina is flying. Only a bit after she starts falling. And even them Luma's attacks don't have much range to them and you could beat them out with many attacks. Also her up-b doesn't snap to the ledge for about the first half of it. The real thing that makes it a pretty alright recovery move is the fact that you could angle it a huge amount and really mix it up.

Against Kirby, what you could actually do is wait onstage, predict when he up-b's, and hit him from above as he's rising. I've had a lot of success edgeguarding him this way.

 

[TDK]

Hi, Second post here.

So, I've noticed when playing , when recovering high with Quickdraw, opponent's don't expect it often/can't get to the other side of the stage in time. So, is it better to recover high or low with Ike?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

...What does Attack on Titan have to do with anything?

The original design argument really doesn't apply here, since this was really designed for 4v4 FFA with items on, not what we play. Alternatively, 1v1 Omegas only.

If you don't get the reference then it's best you don't respond to someone, and now I'm not going to explain it to you because of the way you responded.

All I'm saying is that the whole tournament/competitive smash scene was something that the developer verbally said did not want to happen to smash. Nothing too philosophical there.

The exact phrase "original ideology" comes from shingeki no kyojin, and since you aren't a Marxist or philosopher then that's where you got the words from. It's also completely misleading as sakurai nor anyone else could have possibly had original thoughts on it beyond it being a video game, given the time frame the sb64 came out. Ppl like you are just making stupid remarks, it's not even amateur.

 

[san.]

Hi, Second post here.

So, I've noticed when playing , when recovering high with Quickdraw, opponent's don't expect it often/can't get to the other side of the stage in time. So, is it better to recover high or low with Ike?

It depends on how the opponent responds, how he responded in the past, and what the actual character is capable of.

The exact phrase "original ideology" comes from shingeki no kyojin, and since you aren't a Marxist or philosopher then that's where you got the words from. It's also completely misleading as sakurai nor anyone else could have possibly had original thoughts on it beyond it being a video game, given the time frame the sb64 came out. Ppl like you are just making stupid remarks, it's not even amateur.

Seriously? lol, you can't honestly believe that.

 

[HFlash]

Ppl like you are just making stupid remarks, it's not even amateur.

I was going to elucidate further on the subject, but upon reading this shows how pointless trying to have an educated conversation about anything with you would be.

Edit: Also, please refrain from double posting.

 

[ARGHETH]

Hi, Second post here.

So, I've noticed when playing , when recovering high with Quickdraw, opponent's don't expect it often/can't get to the other side of the stage in time. So, is it better to recover high or low with Ike?

It depends on how the opponent reacts. If they seems prepared to punish a high recovery, it's better to do it low (to the ledge, preferably) and visa versa. There's a post on recovering with Ike somewhere on this thread, but I can't figure out where it is...

Off-topic:

The exact phrase "original ideology" comes from shingeki no kyojin, and since you aren't a Marxist or philosopher then that's where you got the words from. It's also completely misleading as sakurai nor anyone else could have possibly had original thoughts on it beyond it being a video game, given the time frame the sb64 came out. Ppl like you are just making stupid remarks, it's not even amateur.

...You might want to explain that, because it's literally just a set of words that aren't even that uncommon. The author (or translators, in this case, since it's a Japanese manga) probably just used the words because they fit what they wanted, they weren't trying to make a phrase for people to claim "came from it".
By your logic, the guy talking about SJWs on Reddit is either Marxist, a philosopher, or reads SnK (semi-obsessively).

Ppl like you are just making stupid remarks, it's not even amateur.

You don't like the way I posted, then you say this.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont like this discussion one bit, so i'm gonna shift the discussion towards charge projectiles

other than needles, what do you guys think the best storable charge projectile is? my money is on shadow ball because its frame data is amazing and its consistently the strongest and you can do tricky movement stuff with the recoil

 

[Charoite]

But we are talking about spectators,not if the smash series were designed to be competitive(becuase if there 1st, 2nd, and so on then you will have a competition and basically your game will be competitive for default.)and yes all of the smash games weren't designed to cater to spectator (or stream monsters), and shouldn't never taking into account when balancing the game.

Edit:
Well, i think some of the better projectiles is robin neutral-B because is so versatile, you can zone with thunder, or punish with el thunder, and cause some great combos with arcthunder, move is very good, is one of the reason robin mobility is bad.

Rob gyros is so good, at various things like mess with the opponent, or make a combo with them, yoshi eggs, are great too

 

[teddystalin]

The exact phrase "original ideology" comes from shingeki no kyojin, and since you aren't a Marxist or philosopher then that's where you got the words from.

I've been lurking since APEX in this thread and the last, and yet somehow this is still the most hilariously misinformed thing I've read.

i dont like this discussion one bit, so i'm gonna shift the discussion towards charge projectiles

other than needles, what do you guys think the best storable charge projectile is? my money is on shadow ball because its frame data is amazing and its consistently the strongest and you can do tricky movement stuff with the recoil

I'd say Sun Saluation, especially after the healing buff it got. WFT has the offstage game to really abuse it. After that, it'd probably be Aura Sphere for being amazing at covering ledge options in addition to being a solid projectile.

 

[Vipermoon]

i dont like this discussion one bit, so i'm gonna shift the discussion towards charge projectiles

other than needles, what do you guys think the best storable charge projectile is? my money is on shadow ball because its frame data is amazing and its consistently the strongest and you can do tricky movement stuff with the recoil

I would also say shadow ball unless I'm forgetting something. It's just so lagless. Lucario maybe because of the crazy **** you can do with the charging hitbox.

Edit: maybe sun salutation. Idk honestly