Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Summer is now over and despite the patch cycle's best efforts thus far to obfuscate, we're starting to have a relatively good indication where most of the cast hails near at this stage of the meta, the range and consistency of selections in the survey this time around has allowed me show a lot more than what a mass of "top fifteen" and "bottom ten" characters would inherently result in. Not much movement or shake up has happened at the polar ends of the scale, the top ten was almost unanimous in appearance, just like last time. Unlike last time though the criteria was a bit clearer; there was strictly a 1111 focus in ratings. This included Miis; for a majority of participants this is the rulings used for events they attend.

Although we're past the busiest season we're still bound to see a continuation of tournaments happening all times of the week, but feasibly with a bit less turnout at local level.The largest and most important tournament of the season was Evo, which although donning a rule set choice a fair portion did not support, showed that we are capable of trialing major rule set changes without damaging our game or community; it will forever be a mostly positive precedent.
Big tournaments are still going to happen, Paragon this weekend and probably a few other Summer wraps up I'm not aware of that could instantly invalidate this~ But looming in the now not too distant future is Apex2016 (you know things are bad when it's getting to look a lot like Christmas... in department stores). It will be the next opportunity for Japan, most auspiciously Ranai with his first visit, and more of Europe and the Americas to attempt to wow and humble us; it would be astounding if more nations came to shake up the North America dominant Smash4 establishment. The likelihood of version three of this project preceding is pretty high so I'll avoid going into other details like how Winter major events should be in California (or places it doesn't snow), but right now for what's the first time since Mewtwo's release we are not too sure of what's over the horizon from Nintendo patching or releasing new content.
We're alone.... for now. But we should stay vigilant for new challenges ahead

As always a HYPER important reminder: I'm covering the entire cast, however who and how the participants were asked to rate things was not for a tier list. While I can confidently say the poles are a solid reflection of consensus, the rest is intended to be for show and for interest's sake, hopefully showing a correlation with our growing understanding of the entire cast's power in relation to others.

Version 1 (July 18th)

Greatest Threats

(±0) (+3) (±0) (±0) (-3) (±0) (±0) (+3) (-1) (-1)
(-1) (+1) (+2) (-2) (+3) (±0) (-3) (-1)
Notable (unordered): (**) (**) (**) [](↓)(**)​

Inconclusive / Outliers (unordered)

​

Perceived Underwhelming (unordered)

(↑) (↓)(↑)
(**) ​

Spoiler: Condensed Version

1. Sheik
2. Zero Suit Samus
3. Pikachu
4. Luigi
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Fox
7. Sonic
8. Diddy Kong
9. Mario
10. Ness
11. Yoshi
12. Captain Falcon
13. Meta Knight
14. R.O.B.
15. Wario
16. Villager
17. Olimar & Alph & Pikmins
18. Lucario
19≈23. Donkey Kong, Megaman, Peach, Pits, Ryu

24≈34. Bowser Jr., Falco, Mr. Game & Watch, Greninja, Ike, Kirby, Marth, Pacman, Robin, Roy, Toon Link

35≈36. Bowser, Little Mac
37≈44. King Dedede, Charizard, Duck Hunt, Link, Lucas, Mii Brawler, Mii Swordsman, Shulk
45. Lucina
46≈54. Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda

Result Synopsis
I hope the titling "Inconclusive / Outliers" makes sense, characters here either did not appear, were too infrequent or had small mixtures of both high and low opinions. those which did not appear this time were: Bowser Jr, Mr G&W, Greninja, Ike and Pacman; Pacman being the only character doing this consecutively.
As mentioned, nearly all the top ten appeared unanimously. Yoshi and Falcon appeared in just under 90% of lists and fifteenth ended cleanly with Wario appearing in over half. The reason I did not put the aforementioned two with the top ten was just because of the notable shift of average and median placement from those above. The top ten were mostly bounded within that area, usually seeing a majority of votes within a range of 3 to 4 spots. For the next version I'll likely expand the upper range, as most of it now seems to be a very solidified area at this point of time. The next three characters have featured in both versions, appearing in at least a quarter of lists, this with the combination of Olimar dropping out of 'core' was my justification for expanding the literal spots. The next five(ish) characters, notably Pit who did not maintain the same level of confidence as last time, rounded off infrequent but still clear positive ratings for them within top fifteen.

Bottom ten was clean this time in terms of frequency, unlike last time which tenth was a tie. Those original eleven characters were 71% of the ballot, this time the clear 9 characters were 65%, and although the tenth was slightly closer to the higher eight it wrapped up the ten with 70% of the ballot. There were 8 extra characters in the original that took up 92% (w/19) and this time 93% (w/18). Miis, despite their heavy restrictions were mostly on the lower end of frequency, possibly a result of a lot uncertainty, as they are excessively rare characters in tournament in this "meta". The extra eight in both instances though have been quite different in listed characters, many of them having received buffs in the patch that proceeded or acquired some important exposure that swayed thoughts; this is the most volatile area of opinion between versions thus far, although this chaos isn't painting an accurate picture of much, I hope it's interesting.

Credits
We grew in size of participants and welcome the contributions of Reflex, NAKAT, Cyve, Mr. Concon and Mr.R. Expanded European contribution is great and I have ambitions in seeing if bridges can be built to other regions and nations as well in the future (still low on Midwest within the US!). For all participants though, thank you again =)
Even if I wouldn't call this a tier list, if I were to look at it like one I would be pretty happy with the results of our efforts and hope the community enjoy the progress we're all making with Smash4's metagame. Many of the participants are open about what they think personally and some are putting explanations in videos and other media through their various channels, you should check them out.
As necessary, if you don't know me, I'm Shaya, a long-term Smash community member and and pride myself on meta knowledge and science, and I manage the liaising and logistics of this project~
You also can follow me on Twitter and pass this around there if you like it :D

Dabuz - Seagull Joe - Esam - NAKAT - MrConCon - Mr-R - RichBrown - Xzax Kasrani
LarryLurr - TheReflexWonder - 6WX - Espy Rose - MVD - J.Miller - 8Bitman - CYVE - AeroLink - NickRiddle
and Rayquaza07, who may get a Twitter account sometime :D

 

[Shaya]

This thread is also inhabited by the Competitive Impressions Unit, and we take etiquette and posting standards pretty seriously here (as does the Competitive subforum in general).
A general rule of thumb is:
THOUGHTLESS BALANCE SUGGESTIONS or PERSONAL TIER LISTS (without openly justifying themselves and responding properly to questions and critique) is punishable by DEATH.

"Keep relative discussions on character strengths, weaknesses, abilities and viability to here."

 

[Pazx]

Since I have post #3 I thought I may as well use this opportunity to edit in my tier list for future reference + an example of what not to post in this thread

pazx's constantly updating tier list (21/10/2015 great scott):
v1.1.2

Top Tier

A+:


A:


A-:


More below the cut!

Spoiler

High Tier

B+:


B:


B-:
/

Upper Mid Tier (still highly relevant!)

C+:


C:


C-:


Lower Mid Tier (fading to irrelevance)

D+:


D:


D-:


Low Tier

E+:


E:


E-:

~~~ original post below ~~~

I'd be interested to see your personal response Shaya, and I'd also like to see the mean placement for the top 20 characters. Was there a notable gap between Diddy and ROB or is that line break arbitrary?

Overall I agree almost entirely with the characters in the top 20 if not the ordering. There doesn't seem to be any notable exceptions at all which is impressive. The only character I can think of who really has a claim to joining the top 20 in the current meta is Pac-Man due to his theoretical matchup spread but I'm sure a lack of knowledge and representation of the character prevented him from being placed at either end of the spectrum. Well done, I appreciate the effort that went into this.

 

[Shaya]

I honestly have not much different to say (for the top 15) beyond pushing Diddy forward more (I think Diddy being ahead of Yoshi would sit comfortably with people more). Maybe Mii Brawler coming into top 10 and DK into 20ish (at least) when there is more concern for customs.

I don't think the bottom has any odd-ones-out (as in, any of them could be argued bottom 10) but I think with customs in mind WiiFit notably steps up, as does Palutena, so although it isn't a distinct no-customs focus, I think she would be around that region without the amazing options she gets in customs (although I don't think she hits high tier at this time with them).
Lucina and Ganondorf (and maybe Doc) can also compete well but are easily seen as 'second class' characters to their counterparts, are they actual bottom tier power level? I'm skeptical.

And not a completely arbitrary line

Sheik      1.5714285714
Rosalina   2.6373626374
Pikachu    4.2032967033
Luigi      5.4395604396
Zero Suit  5.5714285714
Fox        6.7142857143
Sonic      7.3571428571
Mario      8.2857142857
Ness       9.5192307692
Yoshi      10.2857142857
Diddy      11.3181818182
ROB        17.1
Falcon     20.15625
Olimar     21.796875
MK         26.9387755102
???        28.2142857143
???        32.0833333333
???        32.5
???        42
???        46.6666666667

 

[ぱみゅ]

As much as she is weak, has bad to terrible matchups against top tiers, and lacks a lot of tools to be viable, I see Lucina one step above everyone else in that "bottom 11" list. She has decent matchups against all the not listed characters, and probably beats everyone in that little list there.

That list btw, as it has WFT, I assume is a non-custom one, and in that case, is missing Palutena.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Diddy above Yoshi would certainly be comfortable for me.
Diddy > Yoshi.

 

[Kofu]

A few nitpicks, Shaya, from the first post:

At the end of the paragraph immediately preceding the top 15 list, the word should be "ado" and not "adieu"

At the end of the condensed list where the bottom 11 are listed, it should be 45-55, not 44-54 (51 characters at release plus four DLC makes 55 )

The only other comment I have at the moment would be for ESAM about his opinion of Samus, since he used her to decent success against Luigi in CEO. Of course, one good matchup against a top tier doesn't automatically bump up a low tier, but my opinion of her has been improving as of late. Unfortunately I lack a Twitter account to ask him directly.

 

[Shaya]

@ Kofu
Fixed, thank you (embarrassing :<)
Also if Pit and Dark Pit are considered one slot I believe it's 54 (I counted like three times to make sure).

I never really went over with respondents about how they want their lists classified. Majority privately messaged me them while a few posted in the "public" (actually private) space for others to see.
In this case ESAM was one of the latter so he likely doesn't mind; he didn't place Samus in his bottom ten.

Diddy above Yoshi would certainly be comfortable for me.
Diddy > Yoshi.

While I agree, at the very least that entire area were really close together and they shouldn't be considered too far apart. Will probably be something that gets resolved in the next iteration as voters realise they were underrating Diddy a little

 

[DanGR]

It's interesting viewing how the list turned out, and I appreciate the effort that went into this project. However, there's no written justification from the surveyed players for individual rankings, and @ Shaya your explanations of the list's meaning are quite vague. What all was asked to the participants? I'd like to see the exact survey questions and each player's responses.

What happened to

THOUGHTLESS BALANCE SUGGESTIONS or PERSONAL TIER LISTS (without openly justifying themselves and responding properly to questions and critique) is DEATH.

?

 

[Nobie]

I've been thinking about the concept of viability recently, especially in terms of Mewtwo and the fact that there's still a lot of disagreement over his exact placement. While many don't see him higher than mid tier, and viability has been defined variously as "can get top 8 in a national," "can win a national," and everywhere in between, I have this idea of viability in my head that's more conceptual: what are the chances that a character can execute their gameplan against an opponent?

This isn't to say that Mewtwo is some secret top tier, but I think that against every character in the game he has the potential to start up his gameplan, which is a pressure-based game where advantage lies on a razor's edge but can snowball out of control with the correct reads and positioning at a rate faster than most characters' games.

Then I think about Melee, where the idea that Mewtwo is not bottom of the barrel comes from, what, double jump cancels and some chain grabs against Fox and Falco on FD? Obviously, your character's raw win rates matter, but it seemed less like a cohesive game plan and more a hobbled together mix of things that happen to work against the best characters...sometimes. Mewtwo in Smash 4 has his core strategy, and even the characters who wreck him the most like Fox and Falcon still have to watch out and not overextend themselves.

 

[Shaya]

It's interesting viewing how the list turned out, and I appreciate the effort that went into this project. However, there's no written justification from the surveyed players for individual rankings, and @ Shaya your explanations of the list's meaning are quite vague. What all was asked to the participants? I'd like to see the exact survey questions and each player's responses.

What happened to

?

"Top Fifteen Tournament Threats and Ten Weakest Characters as perceived by high ranked players.
What I'm After:
Ordered 1-15 Biggest tournament threats
Unordered 10 Weakest characters in the cast"

And yes, I didn't ask for written justifications nor expected them, it is not meant to be taken at the same level of authority as a tier list from Smashboards/Backroom would be. And... everything I've already stated within the first post restated. Nothing can be perfect nor is it possible to meet the expectations of everyone within the Western community for something like this.

What happened to personal tier lists being frowned upon? Nothing. As this wasn't personal nor a tier list.

 

[Speed Boost]

It's interesting to me that we consider the Mii Fighters to have customs when you cannot select a default Mii Brawler, Gunner or Swordfighter without first creating them. You are creating your default Mii. The game even allows the use of "custom" Miis without actually enabling customs.

To see that the top players basically put an * by Mii Brawler depending on the rule set is sad, and its no wonder why we aren't seeing a lot of Mii Brawlers so far at EVO. Without a unified Mii rule set its to risky to main Mii Brawler or any other Mii for that matter. Why not just treat the Miis like Sakurai and his pals intended?

 

[LancerStaff]

It's interesting that people see Pit and Dark Pit as a threat... It's not that I think they're too high, but that people don't talk about the characters even with how solid they are.

Fox, MK, Ness, and ROB look too high... But then again most of them I hear have matchup problems with Pit, which I personally use to measure character strength for the most part.

Gunner, Mewtwo, and Lucina also seem out of place. Lucina shouldn't ever be used, but not because she's the absolute worst, but because she's just worse then Marth in every meaningful way. Gunner's nickname is "viable Samus" last I heard, but I'm not too familiar with it. Mewtwo's completely made of glass, but he has plenty of quick moves and moves with large hitboxes. That's a lot more the the others I haven't named have.

Why not just treat the Miis like Sakurai and his pals intended?

You mean not being usable in multiple modes for no real reason and not being recognized as characters for challenges like "Beat Classic 8.0 as three characters"?

Myself, I don't care much how Miis end up being handled in tournaments. They're custom characters... But they also work with customs off. Limiting them to 1111 is silly because they don't have defaults to begin with. They're custom characters.

 

[Speed Boost]

Fox, MK, Ness, and ROB look too high... But then again most of them I hear have matchup problems with Pit, which I personally use to measure character strength for the most part.

That's interesting, I was thinking Ness was a little low. We all know how strong of an option shield is in Smash 4 and Ness has one of the strongest kill throws in the game, if not THE STRONGEST. He also has insanely fast and safe aerials to wall with along with PK Fire. Nair out of shield is an amazing option, that also kills. PK Thunder harasses opponents trying to get back on stage. He can absorb and heal from projectiles. He has the obvious weak recovery, but so does Luigi. Ness is easily TOP 5 in my opinion.

 

[Gunla]

I have a few thoughts on the lists you have procured, @ Shaya .

• The 20 Threats seems pretty on par. While we may have characters who are still untapped and exist within that upper half, the middle section is volatile and things change there a lot. This seems like good, standard fare, and it should, really; Sheik on top, with Rosalina and Pika falling close behind. While I think Luigi might be a bit lower, he has definitely garnered a reputation for his ability to go up against the best (and the fact that is a "Metagame MVP List", and less of a Tier List). I guess Yoshi could apply here too, but the list is raw data at that point. This is more of a nitpick with this, but it happens, I guess. Can't please everyone.
• Is there a way to see how customs off respondents compared to customs on with certain characters, in the raw? While customs do shake up the status quo, it certainly does so for Miis.
• Back onto the customs train, perhaps make something seperate for customs in the future (IE: Have 2 seperate questionnaires for each correspondent?)
• Should we expect something similar to this for the middle section of the cast, which is a huge swirling mass of ominousness? Though it might be a ways off, and a tier list may be established before it could come to fruition, the mid tier area is a section of debate for many characters.
• How many of these should we expect to be released in a period of time? I notice that in the OP, you mention that this has taken you 3 weeks or so, and aimed for one.

I wanted to stray away from actual concerns on the list, and moreso on what the project's goals and purpose is in the long run. I can see this thing going along well, and if commitment is placed into it, it could grow into something big, no?

 

[RayNoire]

I've been thinking about the concept of viability recently, especially in terms of Mewtwo and the fact that there's still a lot of disagreement over his exact placement. While many don't see him higher than mid tier, and viability has been defined variously as "can get top 8 in a national," "can win a national," and everywhere in between, I have this idea of viability in my head that's more conceptual: what are the chances that a character can execute their gameplan against an opponent?

This isn't to say that Mewtwo is some secret top tier, but I think that against every character in the game he has the potential to start up his gameplan, which is a pressure-based game where advantage lies on a razor's edge but can snowball out of control with the correct reads and positioning at a rate faster than most characters' games.

Then I think about Melee, where the idea that Mewtwo is not bottom of the barrel comes from, what, double jump cancels and some chain grabs against Fox and Falco on FD? Obviously, your character's raw win rates matter, but it seemed less like a cohesive game plan and more a hobbled together mix of things that happen to work against the best characters...sometimes. Mewtwo in Smash 4 has his core strategy, and even the characters who wreck him the most like Fox and Falcon still have to watch out and not overextend themselves.

I think it's less disagreement and more of just a collective shrug. No one plays Mewtwo, and those that have some more in-depth experience with him (including/especially his mains, hi) usually conclude that he's pretty close to the bottom, if not THE bottom.

He's got some massive issues, and unlike Zelda and Samus, his problems aren't very well known. His hurtbox is massive--it extends well behind even his tail--and that turns the ledge game into almost certain death. Half his moves have missing hitboxes, and one of them happens to be his grab, which has Ganondorf-level range. And, yeah, there's his weight, but most of us Mewtwo mains either don't really care about that so much or are resigned to the fact that it's not changing. We'd much rather people knew about the borderline-glitchy hitbox and hurtbox issues, and complained about them rather than weight, as they're much more likely to be fixed in the future.

As for a core strategy, I feel like that's a pretty overrated quality to have. Having versatile tools is much more important, and we don't have too many of those (Dtilt is really our only safe move). With safe options, strategies will follow and you won't be helpless when your strategy fails (like ours does against Fox).

 

[Nocally]

Like you already pointed out Shaya, Yoshi being above Diddy kong at the moment just doesn't seem right, especially with notable players like Zero, MVD and others who gets results with Diddy.

At this point in time, I would definitely say that Diddy Kong is a larger threat meta-wise than Yoshi. You could even argue Diddy kong to be above Pikachu and the characters beneath the number 3 spot.


Edit: seems like my assumption was spot on considering the evo finals.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is something I wanted to throw before but I didn't for some reason.

I feel Rosalina is a version of what Snake was for Brawl: definitely a top tier, but overrated at the beginning of the meta, and as the time passes people will continuously keep on figuring her out and how to abuse the holes in her strategy, and eventually her matchups will not be as bad as people see them right now.
Still very good, but not THAT good.

 

[Shaya]

@ Gunla
1. There are many practical interpretations for a Tier List, and at least for the Brawl and Melee ones results were generally considered most important in the long term. At this point "theory" seems fair to acknowledge but we probably shouldn't discount what we're seeing for it until we see it consistently play out. Luigi could be a lot worse, so could Zero Suit; they have "critical flaws" although their rewards are amazing. In Luigi's case he may not be capable of handling major tournaments as a solo main as his performances in that regard seem underwhelming although his regional level and lower results are crazy. And personally I was surprised at the very high unanimous opinion of Yoshi despite lacking majorly notable break outs, a couple of queries pinged "but no one top level mains Yoshi, could you imagine how insanely strong he would be?" and as dangerous as that is his results do seem to be picking up over time, at least anecdotally.
But yeah, pleasing everyone wasn't the goal, but I do hope it's mostly pleasing >_<

2. Those who indicated customs on were few and their responses despite single extra additions weren't radically different to anyone else who assumed customs off. Brawler has a mean of 9.33 within custom only voters. Mii Gunner and Swordsman still show up in bottom 10s (although not both at the same time) and would be sitting tied somewhere with a dozen other characters.

3. Depending on how things go in the near future, it's a possibility.

4. At that point we would be ready for the entire "tier list" I'd say. However, using this to cut down the possible answers on 21st-43rd is somewhat practical in helping a tier list production and could otherwise be an interesting ...totally not planned past time here. It's possible to derive some janky full tier list from all the data I have actually (29 characters voted top and 27 bottom) and I did have a little dabble in this to see, but it isn't too great I guess, maybe at some point of time when it doesn't matter much.

5. I originally indicated a month, but as it took almost a month for the busier smashers to respond and many who expressed interest left behind (at Sky's house), I'm a tad bit cynical about that schedule now. This would be a good time to mention that if you're interested in being apart of this for the next time and think you meet requirements PASS ON YOUR INTERESTS TO ME. What I'll probably look at doing is saying to participants "here's your last list, have any changes to make?" and if they respond 'nay' (or equivalent) include it again to make it easier for some~ (I need to vent over my persistence with some at least a little, I love them all anyway). So uhh... we'll see.

 

[NairWizard]

While I've always been an advocate of a high Pikachu placement, I think that he has some limiting factors that people don't often consider. Seeing him 3rd makes me a little skeptical given that ESAM is the only top-level representative (whereas characters like Fox and Ness have multiple). ESAM is great, and even he doesn't tap into Pikachu's full kit/options just yet, but Pikachu does have problems. And it's not just "range and kill power," as many people cite (remember that Pikachu has quite a few disjoints, and one of the strongest up-smashes in the game).

Quick Attack is amazing, but it has limitations. It doesn't start moving until frame 16-17 (though the hitbox appears on f15 iirc), so while it's good for getting away from juggle situations before they can even occur, it's not nearly as good for getting out of disadvantage immediately. If you're already being juggled, you have to rely on your jump->airdodge like everyone else. This makes Pikachu vulnerable to characters like Luigi (and to an extent Fox/ZSS, though he likely wins those MUs) who have tight, high-damage strings. Compare his f17 QA to ZSS' f4 flip jump and you'll see what I mean--13 frames is a world of difference.

His mobility overall is reliant on using Quick Attack. While he's fast on the ground in terms of run speed and walk speed, his initial dash is really mediocre: he doesn't stop fast enough so he has to commit to shielding when he dashes, and though his aerial acceleration is good his airspeed (as well as fall speed) is garbage, which makes it hard to avoid things like Megaman up-air sometimes.

Without Heavy Skull Bash, Pikachu will never kill you off of a throw or off of an aerial outside of an edgeguard. Period. You should not be dying to up-throw Thunder shenanigans, so shielding against Pikachu is very safe (heck his grab range isn't good, so you can shield pretty close to him). He doesn't even have a frame-2 KO setup move like Fox, in fact all of his KO setups involve trapping landings or edgeguarding. He may be better at KOing than Sheik when your opponent moves enough to allow you to make reads, but if your opponent is just cleverly dashing and shielding at opportune moments and punishing your own movements, getting the KO can be hard--really hard. Pikachu would love a 50:50 Vanish mixup or a Bouncing Fish setup (though reminder: Heavy Skull Bash makes this irrelevant).

Pikachu has had a major nerf that people are not considering fully, too; his ledge hang frames were increased (almost doubled) to be normalized with other characters'. Why was that huge? Because ledge trumping was one of Pikachu's biggest strengths--you had a huge window of time to do anything you wanted before that patch--as well as quickly getting back to (and subsequently off of) the ledge after an edgeguard attempt. Getting stocks as Pikachu using a combination of trumps and lightning-fast edgeguards was almost comically easy; your opponent had to buffer a ledge getup option all of the time, and that led to nice 50:50 mixups that ended with an up-smash or f-smash read. And while Pikachu isn't particularly vulnerable to edgeguards himself, the nerf also allows opponents to set up a good position against him when he's recovering or has reset to the ledge.

Pikachu is good, but he isn't Sheik. Sheik's weaknesses don't matter (low KO power doesn't matter when you have a million kill confirms, some off of a grab), Pikachu's weaknesses matter quite a bit and you can see the effects in many of his matchups that tend toward even (e.g., Ike, Mario) despite his impressive frame data.

 

[Yikarur]

I hope all regions will understand that, even if customs are dead, that Mii's should've been played with all moves.
I think Default Mii Brawler with X122 is Top8 in this game, because he has an insane juggle game and grab game and our ridiculously loved helicopter kick.

 

[Macchiato]

Zelda is a character I can't see bottom 10. Her meta is expanding. We're slowly discovering things like Uthrow - Uair, Falling Nair kill set-ups, and more. We're also gonna expand her potential with teleport cancelling and finding recovery mix-ups. Yes, she has low rep but she has a good rep, Ven. He gets top 8 in large locals in Vegas. He also got 3rd at #Scrubs. He's the reason, a Zelda made it through Evo pools which didn't happen at Apex.

Customs meta, she marginally improves. Din's Flare is a custom that's faster, with more range, has the KB and damage of max distance of Din's Fire at all distances, and it's easier to land the sweetspot. It let's her force an approach which was her main problem and is he biggest improvement. Phantom strike is just a direct upgrade from the default. It has no deadzone, charges fast, semi-spiked, and does more damage. For some match ups Farore's Squall is a good defensive tool. Squall is a Frame 1 windbox that can escape untrue combos, some multihitting moves, and jab combos. It can escape peach's shield pressure and gimp characters like little mac, ness, lucas, and ike. She is a contender for the customs meta.

I think Zelda is strongly unrepresented and underrated and I think she has so much potential.

 

[Smog Frog]

can you name characters that are worse than ? I'm curious to know.

 

[Macchiato]

can you name characters that are worse than ? I'm curious to know.

My personal opinion

Default


Customs


I feel like its her community that holds her back most. They don't have that much faith in her which is extremely unhealthy for advancing a meta. Yes they are helping but if they were more optimistic, it would be much better.

 

[Smog Frog]

thats....really bold if you ask me. a reminder that in this game, even the bottom of the barrel characters have some really good stuff( has a gigantic combo tree, has stupid levin aerials even if they're limited in use, has invincible dash attack and bair, has setups into a move that ends stocks at 60%, etc)

 

[meleebrawler]

I've been thinking about the concept of viability recently, especially in terms of Mewtwo and the fact that there's still a lot of disagreement over his exact placement. While many don't see him higher than mid tier, and viability has been defined variously as "can get top 8 in a national," "can win a national," and everywhere in between, I have this idea of viability in my head that's more conceptual: what are the chances that a character can execute their gameplan against an opponent?

This isn't to say that Mewtwo is some secret top tier, but I think that against every character in the game he has the potential to start up his gameplan, which is a pressure-based game where advantage lies on a razor's edge but can snowball out of control with the correct reads and positioning at a rate faster than most characters' games.

Then I think about Melee, where the idea that Mewtwo is not bottom of the barrel comes from, what, double jump cancels and some chain grabs against Fox and Falco on FD? Obviously, your character's raw win rates matter, but it seemed less like a cohesive game plan and more a hobbled together mix of things that happen to work against the best characters...sometimes. Mewtwo in Smash 4 has his core strategy, and even the characters who wreck him the most like Fox and Falcon still have to watch out and not overextend themselves.

It really can't be said enough: is just a rushed mess of a character who seemed to have a design in mind (that being a tall
lightweight with severe punish potential), but his smashes were weak and the only remote KO threats from him were charged Shadow Ball, fair and uthrow. Not to mention two specials that clearly needed more testing.

 

[Macchiato]

thats....really bold if you ask me. a reminder that in this game, even the bottom of the barrel characters have some really good stuff( has a gigantic combo tree, has stupid levin aerials even if they're limited in use, has invincible dash attack and bair, has setups into a move that ends stocks at 60%, etc)

Samus, yes she has combos but... her options are bad. She has bad approach and upclose game. Everyone falls out of her multihits. She has trouble killing too and she's just really laggy. Her grab is truly terrible.

Robin, his zoning game is not that good due to his projectiles being slow. His mobility is worst in the game and that truly hurts him. His recovery is bad and has no landing options. He's laggy as well.

Palutena's ground game is p bad. Yes her Bair and Dash attack are great but they do have endlag to punish. Her tilts are truly dreadful and she has no kill set-ups because DI. Her approach is unsafe as well. She also has one of the worst reflectors in the game which no use outside of zoners while Nayru's love, confusion, and cape do.

Jigglypuff may have good air game but the lack of edgehogging hurt her tremendously because that was what made her good in melee and not ganon tier in brawl. She only has one true set-up into rest and dair is fairly slow. Having a bad ground game is p bad and her range and approach does not help. Her being light is even worse with rage being a factor and now that DI is much weaker, she'll die at like 40%. She can die at 0% to the farore's elevator.

 

[Smog Frog]

I can make similar claims to undermine viability. She has deadzones on her attacks, people fall out of fsmash and usmash, she has absolutely no zoning potential and has to approach(which she's terrible at), she has 3 super precise sweetspot aerials that are a pain in the ass to land, and she's super light and floaty which means she dies really early.

 

[Routa]

I find it odd to have MK over Wario. Could someone explain why? I mean yeah MK has good "strings" and one of the best edgeguarding and air game, but his range does not make him in my opinion a big threat.

Edit: had to rechoose words.

 

[Macchiato]

I can make similar claims to undermine viability. She has deadzones on her attacks, people fall out of fsmash and usmash, she has absolutely no zoning potential and has to approach(which she's terrible at), she has 3 super precise sweetspot aerials that are a pain in the *** to land, and she's super light and floaty which means she dies really early.

She only has a deadzone on ftilt and people no longer fall out of usmash and fsmash because patches. She's not a zoner in the first place. Her approach really isn't that bad, SH nair is p reliable. Her sweetspots are p easy to hit, much easier than they were in brawl.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Personally, I think Wario and Villager should be in there, rather than Meta Knight and Rob. And, if this is going by character potentntial, Kirby could be above Olimar, and King Dedede and Jigglypuff shoudn't be bottom 11 (Marth and somebody else should be there instead). But, for the main part, this is pretty good, top 5 is complety accurate imo

 

[BJN39]

I can make similar claims to undermine viability. She has deadzones on her attacks, people fall out of fsmash and usmash, she has absolutely no zoning potential and has to approach(which she's terrible at), she has 3 super precise sweetspot aerials that are a pain in the *** to land, and she's super light and floaty which means she dies really early.

I will say Macchiato has always been the blindest optimist for Zelda, and is working his "magic" right now,

but her smash attacks no longer ever drop characters in any normal situation. #StopMisinformationSpread also it is only one dead zone attack, Ftilt. No others.

The rest is pretty much correct though. Sorry Macchi

 

[Macchiato]

I will say Macchiato has always been the blindest optimist for Zelda, and is working his "magic" right now,

but her smash attacks no longer ever drop characters in any normal situation. #StopMisinformationSpread

I do see her problem with landing and her weight/attributes but I don't find approaching that bad and if you practice getting the sweetspots. It'll be much easier.

 

[ZombieBran]

I can make similar claims to undermine viability. She has deadzones on her attacks, people fall out of fsmash and usmash, she has absolutely no zoning potential and has to approach(which she's terrible at), she has 3 super precise sweetspot aerials that are a pain in the *** to land, and she's super light and floaty which means she dies really early.

I'm extremely pessimistic with Zelda but quick correction; she has two precise aerials.
Dair is super easy to sweetspot and the sourspot isn't even bad. This isn't Brawl.

 

[PUK]

I find it odd to have MK over Wario. Could someone explain why? I mean yeah MK has good "strings" and one of the best edgeguarding and air game, but his range does not make him in my opinion a big threat.

Edit: had to rechoose words.

What the problem with his range?

 

[TriTails]

she's super light and floaty which means she dies really early.

...Why does everybody like to translate 'People who look really floaty/People who are womans' to 'super light'.

Zelda is heavier than ZSS, Falco, and LM iirc. At 85, same as Sheik. Unless you consider Sheik 'super light', then Zelda is definitely not Mewtwo levels.

But then again, people still like to label Luigi as light because 'floaty', so yeah.

I find it odd to have MK over Wario. Could someone explain why? I mean yeah MK has good "strings" and one of the best edgeguarding and air game, but his range does not make him in my opinion a big threat.

Edit: had to rechoose words.

If range matters so much, then Mario and Luigi would not exist in tourneys at all.

 

[Smog Frog]

eh, i guess she just FEELS lighter than she really is. floatiness feels like a weight subtraction(you die off the top earlier and dont necessarily live off the sides longer). is a fast faller, so i sometimes forget that she is technically as light as . i also sometimes forget that ranks around 50th in weight because he drops like a rock. but hey, it still counts as a valid flaw to be light(85 is still technically light, right?) and floaty.

 

[Wintropy]

Is Pit really that notable a threat? I mean, I've mained Pit since day one and I will always main Pit, but I think he just lacks the necessary tools to go all the way at the current stage of the meta.

Pit is very much a fundamentals-based character, and for better or for worse, raw skill and determination can only get you so far. I think there's a reason why even top players like Nairo tend to drop him at international level for more reliable killers like Zero Suit Samus.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong on this. I would love to be proven wrong.

Rest of the list seems decent. Kinda want to dispute Ganondorf being bottom 15, but if it's customs off, I can deal with it.

 

[warionumbah2]

but his range .

I like the attempt but you gotta do better than that. Range isn't even that bad actually, its not his main weakness anyway. What holds him back is his poor neutral.

 

[Routa]

What the problem with his range?

If range matters so much, then Mario and Luigi would not exist in tourneys at all.

Range would not be an issue if he wasn't so floaty (Mario) or had easy way get in (Luigi). As far as I know MK has hard time getting "in". I mean I would understand his placing if he had anything to make up his lack of safe approach. He is kinda forced to attack from above and that is the last place where you want to be in this game. I'm not sure tbh if increasing his range would help, but that is the most common complain I have heard.

But... I'm not MK expert so you can go ahead and correct me.