Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Little Mac 100 percent has the worst recovery. His up-b doesn't auto snap so it can be swatted away with an attack or spiked at will. Side-B has partial intangibility but the range of the move isn't fantastic so a lot of things out-range it. Once you hit him away once, he's basically dead because he requires a double jump to recover most of the time. If he tries to counter one read = death.

That's Litlte Mac off stage in general. Read = Death.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If you have time to Arcthunder -> Elwind, you have time for Arcthunder -> Levin Dair.

Speaking of, the Robins were testing Arcthunder. For some reason some attacks get their knockback amplified or their angle changed if it's done at the same time the opponent is locked in Arcthunder. Most notably, Levin Dair becomes a very potent semispike that can even kill outright as early as 40% on some characters when performed at the ledge. In particular, factoring DI, Little Mac cannot come back from this Dair if he's hit with Arcthunder at 10% or so at the ledge.

Is there something in this game about attacks connecting simultaneously that can cause a merger of knockback and angle? That's the only explanation I can think of for Arcthunder setups acting this way.

 

[LancerStaff]

Really? Well tell me 5 moves that do that and are not smash attacks or charged specials please.

It's not like I've done this with every character or something... But two multipliers like this create really absurd results. Any move with similar base knockback and knockback growth will produce similar results.

 

[RayNoire]

Little Mac 100 percent has the worst recovery. His up-b doesn't auto snap so it can be swatted away with an attack or spiked at will. Side-B has partial intangibility but the range of the move isn't fantastic so a lot of things out-range it. Once you hit him away once, he's basically dead because he requires a double jump to recover most of the time. If he tries to counter one read = death.

That's Litlte Mac off stage in general. Read = Death.

That's everyone offstage in general. That's why mixup options are more valuable than pure distance.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think I've been on this thread too long...

 

[Nobie]

The only character who I'd argue might have a worse recovery than Little Mac is Roy, because of how obvious and at the same time subpar Blazer is as a recovery. While Roy has amazing air speed, the fact that he has very little maneuverability means you know he has to be coming closer (something he shares with Mac to an extent).

One semi-good read on either Little Mac or Roy and they're dead.

 

[Rikkhan]

It's not like I've done this with every character or something... But two multipliers like this create really absurd results. Any move with similar base knockback and knockback growth will produce similar results.

that's the thing how many moves have the insane base and growth of rosalina up tilt? even at zero rage rosalina is able to kill mario at 55-60% in smashville and 25-30% in the platform, on top of my head there is not a single move that is as fast and as strong as rosa up tilt.

Obviously this is situational but damn...

 

[Mario766]

That's everyone offstage in general. That's why mixup options are more valuable than pure distance.

Most characters have a move that auto snaps the ledge, or will get them enough distance where they don't get tapped off stage at 20-40 percent and instantly die. Little Mac does get killed from that.

 

[Planty]

@ Rikkhan You're right about it being situational. You have absolutely no idea how right you are. It's so situational that it's the LAST thing you want to take away from her. Removing 2 HP from Luma would be more helpful to you than nerfing that U-tilt. I've killed maybe... 10 people with that U-tilt? And when I killed them they were at high % anyways. The move just has WAY too much ending lag, a tiny sweetspot, and like... no horizontal range. It's not even an anti-air since you have to hit at the bottom of the move for the strong hit to connect. I've actually never seen anybody die to this move in tournament either, for that matter.

Edit: Also the move is almost entirely BKB and and not too much KBG. that means that while it will kill early if you're high up on a platform, it's not really your greatest option from the ground. U-smash is superior for the most part.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

that's the thing how many moves have the insane base and growth of rosalina up tilt? even at zero rage rosalina is able to kill mario at 55-60% in smashville and 25-30% in the platform, on top of my head there is not a single move that is as fast and as strong as rosa up tilt.

Obviously this is situational but damn...

Ganon up tilt

 

[Xermo]

Ganon up tilt

on top of my head there is not a single move that is as fast and as strong

Ganon up-tilt doesn't even kill below 50 from one side of FD to the other at 176% rage.
Reverse warlock punch has better KBG than utilt.

 

[Coffee™]

You want this thread to die? What next... I bet you will suggest people to like posts about character discussion and not the humor posts.

Dis guy is nuts...

This thread would die if we didn't talk about buffs and nerfs.........wtf?

 

[Planty]

The thing about Luma U-tilt, you could nerf the KB on it... but I don't think anyone would care. It's like nerfing KB on Warlock Punch. It's almost never used for anything. Would ANYBODY actually care if it got nerfed? The same goes with Luma sweetspot U-tilt. It's almost never used for anything, and as such, nerfing it would do nothing to make the character worse.

 

[Green L]

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

 

[LightLV]

Wait...do people not realize that transcendence is essentially TRUE priority?

eggh....not really, there's really no way to quantify priority, unless it's scripted to always win, and that's usually reserved for counter supers or something. (Final Smash?)

A fully "transcendent" move (god i hate that term) can be beaten by any move with more range as long as it reaches the hurtbox first, but yeah generally it means it'll have more priority i guess.

Really? Well tell me 5 moves that do that and are not smash attacks or charged specials please.

Easily Ganon's Ftilt, possibly marth's tippers, probably raptor boost, like all of Link's normals or Dair, probably a few of Ike's tilts or aerials.

Oh, that's not in defense of Luma though. The stupid part isn't that Bowser died, it's that he was hit in the first damn place.

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

Shine got buffed but it's still pretty bad. You'd be better off just using Nair probably.

But against Mario with Fox...i'm not jumping out there to finish him unless i'm sure i'm getting the hit. Offstage is the last place Fox wants to be against Mario. His only decent recovery option becomes nigh-suicide

 

[Planty]

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

W...wh...what? Are you a troll? Shine spikes don't exist...

You join yesterday with the name Green L, your main as Luigi, and you make a bunch of posts on why Luigi is overrated. People start getting angry. Now you suggest shine spikes. I'm legitimately curious if you're a troll or not.

Anyway even without shine spikes, Fox doesn't go edgeguard because of his poor aerial mobility, high fall speed and poor recovery make it way too risky to attempt. You'll end up killing yourself half the time if you're not super duper careful.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

Thing is Fox's shine only truly kills characters with terrible recoveries, Mario's Up B far prioritizes fox's shine, also theirs a risk of getting stage spiked by mario's up b so most fox mains don't even bother to edgeguard him.

Also Shine spikes don't exist in smash 4. Yes fox's shine has gotten buffed in the 1.10 patch as the opponent now goes pushes diagonaly instead of just staying in places. The move however does not spike the opponent unlike in melee where the character just get's pushed downards screwing over the majority of the cast. The shine is not even worth using in general due to the amount of lag you get from it. At least in brawl the move was virtualy lagless. Also I'm pretty sure brawls shine was also alot stronger then smash 4's.

 

[Trifroze]

I'm pretty sure there's no contender for Rosalina's utilt at what it does, no move that fast and safe with that much range should kill at 60% even at max rage. As far as I know, the only non-charge and non-warlock punch attacks that have a shot at killing in such a way are the first hit of Mario's, ZSS' and Peach's up specials for example, but you're rarely going to land those (Ally did tho).

 

[HeavyLobster]

Why don't fox mains ever edgeguard? Mostly I just see fox mains wait on the ledge while mario predictably up B's back to the stage. Why not shine spike him?

Fox's edgeguarding sucks. I have an easier time gimping people with Little Mac.

 

[Kaladin]

How to quantify priority:

1. Understand what makes moves beat other moves. (easy enough)
2. Make a "match-up" chart for moves. If hitbox A and hitbox B meet. What happens? But for every move in the game. Tedious and time-consuming, but easy if you have the data.

The number of other hitboxes a given hitbox beats is its priority. Due to the static/non random nature of "priority" no hitbox with a higher priority rating will lose to one with a lower priority rating.

Then, seperate into "tiers", with 9% damage intervals. Moves within the same tier clank. Priority is now quanified.

Useless? Yes. Worth it? No. Possible? Yes.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ganon up-tilt doesn't even kill below 50 from one side of FD to the other at 176% rage.
Reverse warlock punch has better KBG than utilt.

Why do you have no chill

 

[Xermo]

Why do you have no chill

Not my fault your rebut didn't address the conditions of Rikkahn's statement. Why do you care.

 

[Planty]

I'm pretty sure there's no contender for Rosalina's utilt at what it does, no move that fast and safe with that much range should kill at 60% even at max rage. As far as I know, the only non-charge and non-warlock punch attacks that have a shot at killing in such a way are the first hit of Mario's, ZSS' and Peach's up specials for example, but you're rarely going to land those (Ally did tho).

i hate how people spread misinformation. That move may be very fast (frame 3) but it has humongous ending lag. It's super unsafe. It's range is horrible too. You literally have to be INSIDE Luma to get hit by the sweetspot. Otherwise it's just an average move. And if it's so broken, why can't you find tournament footage of someone dying to it?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thing is Fox's shine only truly kills characters with terrible, Mario's Up B far prioritizes fox's shine, also theirs a risk of getting stage spiked by mario's up b so most fox mains don't even bother to connect.

Also Shine spikes don't exist in smash 4. Yes fox's shine has gotten buffed in the 1.10 patch as the opponent now goes pushes diagonaly instead of just staying in places. The move however does not spike the opponent unlike in melee where the character just get's pushed downards screwing over the majority of the cast. The shine is not even worth using in general due to the amount of lag you get from it. At least in brawl the move was virtualy lagless. Also I'm pretty sure brawls shine was also alot stronger then smash 4's.

Japanese Brawl players did some cool stuff with Fox I remember. Funny how much exposure Fox got in Japan because Pikachu was virtually non existant there.

Anyway, where do we all rank now?

I still say he's only behind , but the only one I think might challenge his position is .

 

[biribiri]

i hate how people spread misinformation. That move may be very fast (frame 3) but it has humongous ending lag. It's super unsafe. It's range is horrible too. You literally have to be INSIDE Luma to get hit by the sweetspot. Otherwise it's just an average move. And if it's so broken, why can't you find tournament footage of someone dying to it?

No one dies to it because it has low knockback growth, only high base knockback. Although a 3 frame move that's mainly used for anti-airs is still pretty good considering it's range compared to other characters.

 

[Green L]

Ok, Fox's shine sucks but what's wrong with doing a back air to mario's up b? I'm just noting the lack of edgeguarding compared to the other smash games

 

[Teshie U]

Little Mac 100 percent has the worst recovery. His up-b doesn't auto snap so it can be swatted away with an attack or spiked at will. Side-B has partial intangibility but the range of the move isn't fantastic so a lot of things out-range it. Once you hit him away once, he's basically dead because he requires a double jump to recover most of the time. If he tries to counter one read = death.

That's Litlte Mac off stage in general. Read = Death.

Well to be fair, his Up B actually CAN snap the ledge at certain spacings.

 

[Routa]

This thread would die if we didn't talk about buffs and nerfs.........wtf?

Oh forgot to put /s in the end. He he my bad.

Anyways I cannot see Pikachu above Diddy when I look at their overall performances. Also I think Diddy is right next to Mario in my opinion.

But anyways... Zoners. The character type which is still a bit in the shadow. How well zoners are doing atm? Any other notable zoners than Pacman?

 

[Wintropy]

Ok, Fox's shine sucks but what's wrong with doing a back air to mario's up b? I'm just noting the lack of edgeguarding compared to the other smash games

@DunnoBro said it best: with the magnet ledges, recovering becomes a much easier task than it is in the other Smash games. It isn't Melee or Brawl, where if your recovery isn't up to scratch and the opponent grabs the ledge before you, you're down a stock.

The new mechanics mean the burden's on the advantaged player: if you don't do anything and your opponent's name isn't Little Mac or Doc, chances are good the disadvantaged player will recover safely. If you do try to intercept them, you can just end up forgoing stage control and being put in disadvantage yourself. In addition to that, quite a few characters in the game just have great recovery potential, which can present a psychological barrier rather than just a physical one, i.e. "What's the point in edgeguarding Villager if she's just going to float back up again?"

It isn't that there's a lack of edgeguarding options, just that most people don't make the best use of them because recovery is so much easier in this game and, by extension, more difficult to exploit.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Actually, Diddy > Pikachu makes a lot of sence, still. It's only in a custom enviorment where I can see Pikachu toasting Diddy, but otherwise I think Diddy wins in both representation, results, and maybe even matchups;

 

[Sir Tundra]

Japanese Brawl players did some cool stuff with Fox I remember. Funny how much exposure Fox got in Japan because Pikachu was virtually non existant there.

Anyway, where do we all rank now?

I still say he's only behind , but the only one I think might challenge his position is .

Yeah like fox was actually considered top 7 in brawl in japan. If pikachu was a thing in japan then that would've been a problem.


As of where I'd rank ?

Well that's a tough one.

I mean results/repersentation wise he'd be higher then no doubt.

But Potential wise he'd challenge but is below Pikachu IMO.

 

[Zionaze]

I think this game needs more ledge trumping imo

 

[Rikkhan]

i hate how people spread misinformation. That move may be very fast (frame 3) but it has humongous ending lag. It's super unsafe. It's range is horrible too. You literally have to be INSIDE Luma to get hit by the sweetspot. Otherwise it's just an average move. And if it's so broken, why can't you find tournament footage of someone dying to it?

Op != broken, I agree with you this move is not that good but is so freaking broken, no one should be able to kill a heavy at 0% with just a up tilt.

 

[Mario766]

Well to be fair, his Up B actually CAN snap the ledge at certain spacings.

It won't auto snap though, it'll always be hittable.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's not easy to time. If you do get it the Mario will tech if hit toward the stage. And Fox has ginormous end lag after Bair. He'd have to use "FIRE!" to get back on stage, in which case Mario can kill him.

You're way better off staying on stage for stage control and ledge get-up mind games which Fox is pretty good at taking care of.

The only thing Fox can edge-guard with his every hit of Fair except the last and to put a cherry on top he'll footstool (I HATE that this exists. Happened to me in tourney twice and I was Marth yet it seemed so simple).

 

[Amadeus9]

Mario upb:
-Frame 3
-Intangible
-Stage Spikes

There's a reason why it's not challenged often.

 

[Green L]

For a game known for good recoveries, I find it ironic that everyone is afraid to go offstage for edgeguarding. Some recoveries go far but don't have a hitbox such as Pit's or Rosalina's. A Falcon could easily end a stock by spiking Villager while he's recovering because it has no hitbox yet no one does this.

 

[Wintropy]

For a game known for good recoveries, I find it ironic that everyone is afraid to go offstage for edgeguarding. Some recoveries go far but don't have a hitbox such as Pit's or Rosalina's. A Falcon could easily end a stock by spiking Villager while he's recovering because it has no hitbox yet no one does this.

If you whiff, you're in disadvantage. Now the opponent's back on-stage and has to debate whether it's best to go for the edgeguard or wait 'til you get back and punish your getup options.

For most players, best thing to do is just wait it out and play it safe. Maintaining stage control is often much more beneficial than going for hit-or-miss gimp tactics.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Speaking of, the Robins were testing Arcthunder. For some reason some attacks get their knockback amplified or their angle changed if it's done at the same time the opponent is locked in Arcthunder.

Is there something in this game about attacks connecting simultaneously that can cause a merger of knockback and angle? That's the only explanation I can think of for Arcthunder setups acting this way.

Still wanting an answer to this if there is one. Hell, there are some reports that a simple Jab 1 almost KO's Jigglypuff out of Arcthunder at 0%. I'm really curious if there is a relationship here.

Could make for some hilarious doubles kill setups akin to the Pikmin/Fox glitch, only this one's not a glitch in the traditional sense.

 

[BSP]

Oh forgot to put /s in the end. He he my bad.

Anyways I cannot see Pikachu above Diddy when I look at their overall performances. Also I think Diddy is right next to Mario in my opinion.

But anyways... Zoners. The character type which is still a bit in the shadow. How well zoners are doing atm? Any other notable zoners than Pacman?

Ranai's does work. I hope he comes to America at some point.