Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Davis-Lightheart]

No, it's a hazard.

Watch this:

Go to 1:06 and watch Little mac. You will notice he takes 10% of damage from the explosion of the wall.

It's a minor hazard though, nothing ban-worthy I believe and easily avoidable.

I think that may be that special wall that hurt him. The other times I've seen others get smashed into the crumbling walls they took no other damage. Also, look at 0:20 at the footage I posted, Bowser stands pretty much on point with the exploding normal walls, and they didn't harm him.

Of course, we'll have to see.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I think that may be that special wall that hurt him. The other times I've seen others get smashed into the crumbling walls they took no other damage. Also, look at 0:20 at the footage I posted, Bowser stands pretty much on point with the exploding normal walls, and they didn't harm him.

Of course, we'll have to see.

It's whenever a wall is destroyed by a bomb. If a bomb is destroyed near a wall, it causes a chain reaction, and the explosion from the chain reaction is what does damage.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It's whenever a wall is destroyed by a bomb. If a bomb is destroyed near a wall, it causes a chain reaction, and the explosion from the chain reaction is what does damage.

I'm talking about the explosion too. At 0:20, Bowser is unharmed by an explosion (either that or the hurtbox is that tiny)

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I'm talking about the explosion too. At 0:20, Bowser is unharmed by an explosion (either that or the hurtbox is that tiny)

Ok, re-watched the video.

Bowser set off the bomb, so it could that the one's who set it off are immune to the explosions. Though, the hitbox on the explosion also doesn't seem to go past the width of the wall and is more contained in it. Meaning, Bowser probably wasn't in ranged as well. Also, the bomb explosion itself doesn't do any damage. Only the wall explosion seems to hurt.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Ok, re-watched the video.

Bowser set off the bomb, so it could that the one's who set it off are immune to the explosions. Though, the hitbox on the explosion also doesn't seem to go past the width of the wall and is more contained in it. Meaning, Bowser probably wasn't in ranged as well. Also, the bomb explosion itself doesn't do any damage. Only the wall explosion seems to hurt.

More like the explosion doesn't span further than the middle of the wall, Bowser was pretty much on top of the right side. The hurtbox of the thing must be small.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

More like the explosion doesn't span further than the middle of the wall, Bowser was pretty much on top of the right side. The hurtbox of the thing must be small.

Most likely...

...Though, all of this is really trivial as, like I said, it only does 10% and minimal knockback.

It could be helpful in trying to get players camping off the top to get down though as they would have to move out of the way of the explosions.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

These seem like definites for the stage list

Battlefield/Miiverse(doesn't seem different than Battlefield), Smashville, Final Destination/Omega Destination, Congo Jungle N64, Town and City and Lylat Cruise Brawl

These seem to be good possible counterpicks/neutrals

Big Battlefield- Looks like a good basic stage but it is pretty large and can lead to circle stalling/camping due to size and platforms

Mario Kart Circuit- Looks like a good stage and the hazards are predictable but they do hurt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-W0hpJjWM

Delfino Plaza Brawl- This stage has been a staple in the Brawl meta even with the walkoffs in some of its transformations and hopefully the shinesprite tower glitch is gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVA4BSvFWJE&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4&index=15

Luigi's Mansion Brawl- The destructible stage elements may put off some and circle camping/stalling can arise this stage was highly disputed in the Brawl meta due to the wall teching and circle stalling

Wooly World- Nice stage layout but the walkoff section may last a bit too long https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9RmAFOZD2U&index=2&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4

Skyloft- same problems as Delfino Plaza but it looks like a good counterpick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QvY5XJG4Xg

Halberd Brawl - Two hazards that target an individual but they are pretty predictable and this stage was a staple in the Brawl meta

Orbital Gate Assualt- Arwings fire the stage occasionally but it doesn't seem to do much at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDw9iImsIok&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4&index=6

Kalos Pokemon League- The water one looks troublesome and the dragon statue seems to be a nuisance but all in all nothing game breaking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXtEmwu8atM

Pokemon Stadium 2- The tripping mechanic is gone so the ice transformation might not be annoying

Castle Siege Brawl- A walkoff transformation and statues that block projectile, this stage was a staple in the Brawl meta and chain grabbing will not longer be an issue in the walkoff transformation

Duck Hunt Stage- Getting points is only aesthetical and the grass should be no problem due to its small size and how short it last https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoJVk93Sykc

Wrecking Crew- Stalling may become an issue in this stage due to size and characters can supposedly get stuck in the barrels if the stage collapses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BKJP-3D-Y

Pilot Wings- There is a hazard but it is pretty hard to get hit by it and is predictable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqrxUaLxxEQ

Wuhu Island- Some walkoffs and a hazard in the water stage looks good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggC4joE2wU

Windy Hill Zone- the size and windmill might promote stalling, nice layout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2q1Mgmkd04

Will add stages that I feel should be definite bans and my reasons for them at a later date to keep contributing to the discussion

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Most likely...

...Though, all of this is really trivial as, like I said, it only does 10% and minimal knockback.

It could be helpful in trying to get players camping off the top to get down though as they would have to move out of the way of the explosions.

Seems like a pretty reasonable hazard to me looks like a fine stage nothing too disruptive here though the size may promote stalling. The background looks sort of bland to me maybe it will look better when I play the game on my big screen when it comes out

 

[ShadyWolfe]

No, it's a hazard.

Watch this:

Go to 1:06 and watch Little mac. You will notice he takes 10% of damage from the explosion of the wall.

It's a minor hazard though, nothing ban-worthy I believe and easily avoidable.

Alright thanks I will edit then

 

[Piford]

These seem like definites for the stage list

Battlefield/Miiverse(doesn't seem different than Battlefield), Smashville, Final Destination/Omega Destination, Congo Jungle N64, Town and City and Lylat Cruise Brawl

These seem to be good possible counterpicks

Big Battlefield- Looks like a good basic stage but it is pretty large and can lead to circle stalling/camping due to size and platforms

Mario Kart Circuit- Looks like a good stage and the hazards are predictable but they do hurt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-W0hpJjWM

Delfino Plaza Brawl- This stage has been a staple in the Brawl meta even with the walkoffs in some of its transformations and hopefully the shinesprite tower glitch is gone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVA4BSvFWJE&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4&index=15

Luigi's Mansion Brawl- The destructible stage elements may put off some and circle camping/stalling can arise this stage looks good.

Wooly World- Nice stage layout but the walkoff section may last a bit too long https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9RmAFOZD2U&index=2&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4

Skyloft- same problems as Delfino Plaza but it looks like a good counterpick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QvY5XJG4Xg

Halberd Brawl - Two hazards that target an individual but they are pretty predictable and this stage was a staple in the Brawl meta

Orbital Gate Assualt- Arwings fire the stage occasionally but it doesn't seem to do much at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDw9iImsIok&list=PLZLCn6eOKOyE-p_si0xYc6cGVbG6HKTA4&index=6

Kalos Pokemon League- The water one looks troublesome and the dragon statue seems to be a nuisance but all in all nothing game breaking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXtEmwu8atM

Pokemon Stadium 2- The tripping mechanic is gone so the ice transformation might not be annoying

Castle Siege Brawl- A walkoff transformation and statues that block projectile, this stage was a staple in the Brawl meta and chain grabbing will not longer be an issue in the walkoff transformation

Duck Hunt Stage- Getting points is only aesthetical and the grass should be no problem due to its small size and how short it last https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoJVk93Sykc

Wrecking Crew- Stalling may become an issue in this stage due to size and characters can supposedly get stuck in the barrels if the stage collapses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4BKJP-3D-Y

Pilot Wings- There is a hazard but it is pretty hard to get hit by it and is predictable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqrxUaLxxEQ

Wuhu Island- Some walkoffs and a hazard in the water stage looks good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggC4joE2wU

Windy Hill Zone- the size and windmill might promote stalling, nice layout https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2q1Mgmkd04

Will add stages that I feel should be definite bans and my reasons for them at a later date to keep contributing to the discussion

If you are going to list stages as counterpicks (which you really shouldn't) you should give a reason as to why it might favor certain types of characters more than others. Hazards doesn't mean counter pick. Halberd is the only current legal stage to have hazard, and it was Neutral up until one of the latest stage bans.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

If you are going to list stages as counterpicks (which you really shouldn't) you should give a reason as to why it might favor certain types of characters more than others. Hazards doesn't mean counter pick. Halberd is the only current legal stage to have hazard, and it was Neutral up until one of the latest stage bans.

The fonts keep randomly changing on me when I was typing so I might of left off the /Neutral the second time I typed it thanks for the heads up I will edit it back in.

 

[Piford]

The fonts keep randomly changing on me when I was typing so I might of left off the /Neutral the second time I typed it thanks for the heads up I will edit it back in.

Also please stop double+ posting. If you hit reply it will add a quote to the reply box you are already using.

 

[Leonyx]

Here's some more footage of Mushroom Kingdom U. Nabbit is definitely hit-able, as this video shows, and is barely a threat. Megaman only got grabbed because he was open from using the Assist Trophy.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Even though Nabbit barely played a part in that footage, it now moved me to the iffy category. He's not as easily rid of as I hoped, even if he is very incompetent. *Sigh* I feel this stage may be lost.

 

[Piford]

It looks like Nabbit, though easily avoidable, is a constant threat when he's around and doesn't die easily. I could easily be persuaded, but I think he ruins a great stage. If when I play the stage it ends up being easy and no big deal, then it could be legal, but I think this is gonna be banned.

 

[Leonyx]

Forgive me if these have been posted before, but they seem to be a good length for judgment.

Here's one of Wuhu Island. Apparently while moving, the water knocks you up similarly to lava in Metroid stages.

Here's some footage of Garden of Hope. The crab's pretty well telegraphed (camera zooms out and it takes him a second before he can actually hit someone), but I'll leave the critique to the professionals. This guy has some other vids of stages that we seem to have a good grasp on, but feel free to check them out.

 

[Deleted member]

The main problem with Nabbit is that opponents can hit/throw you into him and he takes out a section of the battlefield, on top of being an OHKO hazard.

 

[Piford]

Looks like Orbital does have a hazard (outside the pew bullets). I doubt this means anything since we've seen so many videos and it's never come into play. It's also nonintrusive and telegraphed and the hint even tells you the player can take advantage of it.
Edit: Watching this footage, theres also some extremely telegraphed missiles that do 10% damage and practically no knockback. I still don't see an issue with these though.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I think the force field is the field of rings when the aparoid missile is ramming into one of the ships. I guess that's a damaging wall that you'd throw your opponent into.

 

[Starbound]

Honestly, the more I see from Nabbit the more I'm convinced he's like some pseudo-boss character.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Honestly, the more I see from Nabbit the more I'm convinced he's like some pseudo-boss character.

I think that is exactly what he is intended to be. RIP Mushroom Kingdom U legality. You had so much potential.

Still, looks like a great casual stage though.

Talking about Orbital Gate? Looks like a great stage. Hazards are very minor. I do wonder how much of a problem the force field will be though. If it's just something that does minor damage and knockback, we should be good.

 

[Slyphoria]

So the banned list looks something like:

Mario Galaxy - Giant and walkoffs
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Walkoffs and disruptive hazards.
Luigi's Mansion - Circle camping and teching
Wooly World - Giant with walkoffs for half the stage.
Yoshi's Island (Melee) - Walkoffs and other stuff.
Jungle Hijinx - Circle camping?
75m - Everything.
Gamer - Over powered hazard.
Temple - Circle camping cave of life mess
Bridge of Eldin - Giant with walkoffs and a giant hole in the center for a long time
Pyrosphere - Ridley
Norfair - Lava
Great Cave Offensive - Giant with instakills.
Port Town Aero Dive - Hazards will kill you instantly.
Onett - Walkoffs and car hazards and promotes camping
Coliseum - Walkoffs and Giant. If only it had edges.
Flat Zone 2 - Wrecks your **** with hazards and walkoffs.
Palutena's Temple - Holy **** man everything.
Skyworld - Cave of life and no grabbable edges when platforms are broken.
Boxing Ring - Giant, walkoffs, and powerful stage hazard in lights that respawns super fast.
Wii Fit Studio - Big, walkoffs.
Gaur Plain - Stage boss, walkoffs, circle camping when no boss.
Wily Castle - Yellow Devil ruins everything.
Pac-Land - Scrolling walkoffs.


Possibly OK:
Mushroom Kingdom U - Depends on how hard Nabbit is to kill / if his OHKO can be shaken out of.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - The problems that were seen in Brawl could be fixed. The conveyor belts mostly are.
Garden of Hope - While the crab does 20%, there's no knockback. It's a little big but that's possibly not an issue.
Wrecking Crew - The barrels might be hard to get out of.

 

[Piford]

So the banned list looks something like:

Mario Galaxy - Giant and walkoffs
Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Walkoffs and disruptive hazards.
Luigi's Mansion - Circle camping and teching
Wooly World - Giant with walkoffs for half the stage.
Yoshi's Island (Melee) - Walkoffs and other stuff.
Jungle Hijinx - Circle camping?
75m - Everything.
Gamer - Over powered hazard.
Temple - Circle camping cave of life mess
Bridge of Eldin - Giant with walkoffs and a giant hole in the center for a long time
Pyrosphere - Ridley
Norfair - Lava
Great Cave Offensive - Giant with instakills.
Port Town Aero Dive - Hazards will kill you instantly.
Onett - Walkoffs and car hazards and promotes camping
Coliseum - Walkoffs and Giant. If only it had edges.
Flat Zone 2 - Wrecks your **** with hazards and walkoffs.
Palutena's Temple - Holy **** man everything.
Skyworld - Cave of life and no grabbable edges when platforms are broken.
Boxing Ring - Giant, walkoffs, and powerful stage hazard in lights that respawns super fast.
Wii Fit Studio - Big, walkoffs.
Gaur Plain - Stage boss, walkoffs, circle camping when no boss.
Wily Castle - Yellow Devil ruins everything.
Pac-Land - Scrolling walkoffs.


Possibly OK:
Mushroom Kingdom U - Depends on how hard Nabbit is to kill / if his OHKO can be shaken out of.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - The problems that were seen in Brawl could be fixed. The conveyor belts mostly are.
Garden of Hope - While the crab does 20%, there's no knockback. It's a little big but that's possibly not an issue.
Wrecking Crew - The barrels might be hard to get out of.

Luigi's Mansion isn't a huge problem since everything's destructible. If it weren't, the circle campable areas are extremely small and not practical in most situations, and you can easily hit your opponent with a side smash instead of an up smash if they continue to tech the roof.

Port Town Aero Dive's hazards have been toned down a bit, it needs testing.

Norfair was legal in brawl, until it was banned due to ledge stalling. Lava was never an issue

Wii Fit Studio is pretty small, and Coliseum isn't much bigger. Walk-offs aren't really enough of a reason to ban them on their own, and should be tested for degenerate gameplay strategies.

Jungle Hijinx actually punishes circle camping. Using the Barrels too many times in a row will make them explode on you. Also the stage occasionally forces you to the back, which also prevents camping.

Wooly World - Walk-offs in this stage are fine, because when they are removed it puts campers in a bad position. This means people shouldn't camp in the first place because they only seek to loose from it.

 

[Slyphoria]

Norfair was legal in brawl, until it was banned due to ledge stalling. Lava was never an issue

Even with the giant lava waves that you needed to get in the bunker to dodge?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm legitimately upset by Nabbit. The AI tends to shake out of everything at an inhumanly quick rate so it seems likely that if it's possible to shake out it's really hard, and Nabbit just straight out kills people. I didn't see whichever video shows us how hard he is to kill, but I'm not sure that's the important part. He's absurdly threatening and incredibly disruptive. This is just stupid; this stage was literally perfect, literally the best competitive smash stage ever made, and then after being publicly played and shown to be perfect an element like this is added to it? It just makes no sense at all. I'll still test it out, but these quality traveling stages are the most important stages by far to making a truly balanced stage list so even one is an absurdly huge loss.

So yeah, I'm salty over Mushroom Kingdom U. Otherwise though...

The thing with walk-offs and Yoshi's Woolly World in that we all know that really walk-off camping doesn't work. It just is not a strategy that actually wins games for a variety of obvious reasons, and the nature of Yoshi's Woolly World is not relevant to that fact. Here are what walk-offs actually do:

-Remove the off-stage game
-Make matches way more swingy (playing near walk-offs just causes very low% deaths in general)
-Slow down matches drastically (you just have to approach certain walk-off positions very carefully)
-Serve as a huge advantage to a few characters (Ness and Little Mac most notably)

Across the board they create mediocre gameplay, and none of these factors are really going to be limited by how Woolly World works since it's a walk-off for a very long time and then flops to a form that most characters are going to play extremely defensively (I'd just turtle up on one of the lower platforms and wait it out). They aren't broken; I think it's very clear that they aren't broken. The game would still be a perfectly reasonable competitive game with Yoshi's Woolly World, Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, Wii Fit Studio, Mario Circuit Brawl, Yoshi's Island, and Onett all legal. It is clear that overall the game is worse when you play on them and that a large number of people cannot accept them. I don't see where this rabbit hole leads if we pursue it. It's a hard battle to win that doesn't really help us much if we do, and I think it seems very likely that Woolly World's gameplay dynamics fit in with the rest. I'll be exploring Woolly World like I explore every stage, but it's really hard for me to see how it could end up any better than a typical walk-off stage all things considered.

The reason I make a big point of that is that, Mushroom Kingdom U's bizarre last minute design change to most likely ruin the stage aside, we still have tons of quality traveling stages. Mario Circuit, Skyloft, Orbital Gate Assault, Kalos Pokemon League, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Castle Siege, Town and City, Pilotwings, and Wuhu Island are all stages we have to think about here; our current evidence makes it seem very unlikely we'll be losing more than one of them to actual bad design. It is very common for people to say stuff like "this one single landing stop annoys me and makes the stage ban-worthy" or "this seems like a counterpick stage"; IMO it's a far better focus to counter those lines of thinking and enshrine these stages that are not only quality but the types of stages that add such an incredible amount to the game (and likewise, we risk having a radically worse game if we let the other side win on these!) than to spend our energy on walk-off stages that are battles we'll not only for sure lose in the end but battles that don't stand to really help us even if we somehow win.

I'm all for having the big walk-off talk and really establishing clearly and popularly how the game really plays on these stages, but I'd prefer to have it after we get a clear, broad consensus that these pretty innocent traveling stages should not be in any way big or small less legal than the other stages and likewise see plenty of more "out there" stages like Pokemon Stadium 2, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Garden of Hope, and Windy Hill as stages that very likely won't get easy acceptace but would be substantially more pragmatic battles than walk-off stages and are also stages with probably more to offer (stadium 2 in particular I think is winnable, and both Garden of Hope and Windy Hill are not stages I hold real hope for!). So yeah, for me, it's a question of priorities really...

 

[Piford]

Even with the giant lava waves that you needed to get in the bunker to dodge?

You could spot dodge or air dodge it.

 

[Starbound]

So regarding Duck Hunt stage...

We'll definitely have to test and see what items can be obtained from shooting the ducks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Even with the giant lava waves that you needed to get in the bunker to dodge?

The lava wave could be shielded or spotdodged without issue.

'd

EDIT: Odds are the ducks won't drop anything with items off. Something to test at any rate.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Even with the giant lava waves that you needed to get in the bunker to dodge?

You don't have to go into the bunker actually; you can just dodge like normal.

Edit: Please don't let the ducks drop anything without items on.

 

[Slyphoria]

I'm legitimately upset by Nabbit. The AI tends to shake out of everything at an inhumanly quick rate so it seems likely that if it's possible to shake out it's really hard, and Nabbit just straight out kills people. I didn't see whichever video shows us how hard he is to kill, but I'm not sure that's the important part.

They don't shake out of the Boss Galaga or some moves like DK's Side B.

Nabbit has the same rules as a human player it seems. He takes two uncharged Megaman U-Smashes and some extra. He needs to be KOed to kill him. He seems to be kind of like Flying Man but without alliances and less of a constant hazard.

The lava wave could be shielded or spotdodged without issue.

Oh, well, news to me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Amazing Ampharos What stages do you think are worth the fight to keep legal? There's 39 stages that I know of last time I counted, and Flat Zone was shown by one of the guys who has the review copy so that's 40. (Actually make that 47 but those 7 are absolutely not getting allowed.)

For reference, here's the list:

Spoiler: Long Stage List

1. Battlefield
2. Big Battlefield
3. Final Destination
4. Smashville
5. Town and City
6. Jungle Hijinxs
7. Duck Hunt
8. Coliseum
9. Gamer
10. Mario Circuit
11. Miiverse
12. Pac-Land
13. Garden of Hope
14. Pilotwings
15. Kalos Pokemon League
16. Boxing Ring
17. Windy Hill
18. Orbital Gate Assault
19. Mario Galaxy
20. Mushroom Kingdom U
21. Skyloft
22. Wii Fit Studio
23. Wuhu Island
24. Wrecking Crew
25. Woolly World
26. Kongo Jungle 64
27. Onett
28. Port Town Aero Dive
29. Castle Siege
30. Skyworld
31. Halberd
32. Luigi's Mansion
33. Mario Circuit Brawl
34. Norfair
35. Pokemon Stadium 2
36. Lylat Cruise
37. Delfino Plaza
38. Bridge of Eldin
39. Yoshi's Island Melee
40. Flat Zone 2
41. Temple
42. Palutena's Temple
43. 75M
44. The Great Cave Offensive
45. Gaur Plain
46. Pyrosphere
47. Wily Castle

 

[LiteralGrill]

I
I'm all for having the big walk-off talk and really establishing clearly and popularly how the game really plays on these stages, but I'd prefer to have it after we get a clear, broad consensus that these pretty innocent traveling stages should not be in any way big or small less legal than the other stages and likewise see plenty of more "out there" stages like Pokemon Stadium 2, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, Garden of Hope, and Windy Hill as stages that very likely won't get easy acceptace but would be substantially more pragmatic battles than walk-off stages and are also stages with probably more to offer (stadium 2 in particular I think is winnable, and both Garden of Hope and Windy Hill are not stages I hold real hope for!). So yeah, for me, it's a question of priorities really...

So much this, we need to get our priorities right and fight for the stages that actually have a shot. From my experiences so far TOing people aren't going to be as open to things like Norfair, but could maybe be persuaded on Pokemon Stadium 2, Wuhu Island, or other similar stages. Let's try to keep those legal, the ones that stand a shot.

 

[Piford]

@ Amazing Ampharos What stages do you think are worth the fight to keep legal? There's 39 stages that I know of last time I counted, and Flat Zone was shown by one of the guys who has the review copy so that's 40. (Actually make that 47 but those 7 are absolutely not getting allowed.)

For reference, here's the list:

Spoiler: Long Stage List

1. Battlefield
2. Big Battlefield
3. Final Destination
4. Smashville
5. Town and City
6. Jungle Hijinxs
7. Duck Hunt
8. Coliseum
9. Gamer
10. Mario Circuit
11. Miiverse
12. Pac-Land
13. Garden of Hope
14. Pilotwings
15. Kalos Pokemon League
16. Boxing Ring
17. Windy Hill
18. Orbital Gate Assault
19. Mario Galaxy
20. Mushroom Kingdom U
21. Skyloft
22. Wii Fit Studio
23. Wuhu Island
24. Wrecking Crew
25. Woolly World
26. Kongo Jungle 64
27. Onett
28. Port Town Aero Dive
29. Castle Siege
30. Skyworld
31. Halberd
32. Luigi's Mansion
33. Mario Circuit Brawl
34. Norfair
35. Pokemon Stadium 2
36. Lylat Cruise
37. Delfino Plaza
38. Bridge of Eldin
39. Yoshi's Island Melee
40. Flat Zone 2
41. Temple
42. Palutena's Temple
43. 75M
44. The Great Cave Offensive
45. Gaur Plain
46. Pyrosphere
47. Wily Castle

I don't think Flatzone 2 should be allowed even on the most liberal stage list. I would add it to the 7 banned stages you have. The blastzones are too close, the camera doesn't move, and there are overpowerful hazards.

 

[Slyphoria]

I don't think Flatzone 2 should be allowed even on the most liberal stage list. I would add it to the 7 banned stages you have. The blastzones are too close, the camera doesn't move, and there are overpowerful hazards.

Lion with the chairs, mostly. The Oil Panic ones do a bit but it's not nearly as bad as Lion's.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Amazing Ampharos What stages do you think are worth the fight to keep legal? There's 39 stages that I know of last time I counted, and Flat Zone was shown by one of the guys who has the review copy so that's 40. (Actually make that 47 but those 7 are absolutely not getting allowed.)

For reference, here's the list:

Spoiler: Long Stage List

1. Battlefield
2. Big Battlefield
3. Final Destination
4. Smashville
5. Town and City
6. Jungle Hijinxs
7. Duck Hunt
8. Coliseum
9. Gamer
10. Mario Circuit
11. Miiverse
12. Pac-Land
13. Garden of Hope
14. Pilotwings
15. Kalos Pokemon League
16. Boxing Ring
17. Windy Hill
18. Orbital Gate Assault
19. Mario Galaxy
20. Mushroom Kingdom U
21. Skyloft
22. Wii Fit Studio
23. Wuhu Island
24. Wrecking Crew
25. Woolly World
26. Kongo Jungle 64
27. Onett
28. Port Town Aero Dive
29. Castle Siege
30. Skyworld
31. Halberd
32. Luigi's Mansion
33. Mario Circuit Brawl
34. Norfair
35. Pokemon Stadium 2
36. Lylat Cruise
37. Delfino Plaza
38. Bridge of Eldin
39. Yoshi's Island Melee
40. Flat Zone 2
41. Temple
42. Palutena's Temple
43. 75M
44. The Great Cave Offensive
45. Gaur Plain
46. Pyrosphere
47. Wily Castle

I'll share what the subreddit is thinking of running, what we think may have issues for some and which ones we thought could maybe be worth testing out in another science event to see if we could support it.
[collapse=Legal stages]
Battlefield (Mii Verse Depending On If they’re actually different)
Duck Hunt
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pilot Wings
Smashville
Town and City
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Halberd (we're wondering if the large laser hazard will be able to be vectored out of, or if the hazards might have other new things to think about)
Kongo Jungle (depending on the size this time)
Mario Circuit (Wii U) (We worry on this one if people will let it stay)
Skyloft
Wuhu Island (Same worry, a decent number of transformations look significantly bad)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Stages For Testing]
Garden of Hope (Looks big, the bug hazards wont excite most folks to play their either)
Orbital Gate Assault (It looks like a tame moving stages but quite the movement indeed. This one actually has a decent chance if people like it or it's properly defended)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I never thought this should have been banned in Brawl, but the old sentiment still holds for most. With community zupport this one has a shot)
Wii Fit Studio (the only walk off anyone wanted to test, and folks said this would stretch testing for science too)
Windy Hill Zone (It's really big looking and the springs plus the windmill don't excite me.)
Wooly World (The walkoffs probably last too long and the platform layout isn't exactly amazing either)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (well, this has a walk off too. people thought it may be less offensive then most with the spole and still possible down kills. Still, not to hopeful here.)
[/collapse]

So every basic stage with no problems would e a stagelist of 10. Not bad, but not amazing either. As long as no issues are present and Wuhu + Mario Circuit (Wii U) have the community fight for them, that's 14 good stages which is awesome. If maybe one or two of the tougher ones ( I could see PS2, OGA, easy, maybe YIM if lucky) we'd have an epic list.

Anything outside the kinda tame isn't going to be legal in the long run. Let's try to focus on the stages that may actually stay.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Wrecking Crew is the stage I feel is worth fighting for because it really does bring in a unique set up. I want to see this stage get exploited consistently before it's banned.

Capps, I suggest you give that one a chance.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

If you could break out of Nabbit's bag, Mushroom Kingdom U would've been a maybe, but a human player got caught in that vid and I doubt he just sat there. Not optimistic.

I feel like Orbital's gonna be that stage that's gonna end up banned because people just don't to deal with it. I'm not personally opposed but I've just got that gut feeling. I feel similarly about Kalos League, the more I see of it.

If Wrecking Crew was a floor shorter I'd be a lot more optimistic for it. But as is it looks really freaking tall and for all we know getting barrel'd leads to free charged smash attacks. Could possibly be a doubles stage.

The Duck hunt stage looks great. Still shocked it ended up not being a walk off.

Garden of Hope looks way too big for singles. The crab is solidly telegraphed though, so doubles should be okay. The lifts look like they could lead to some cool stuff.

Pokemon stadium 2...did they change the platform layout for electric mode? Or is the HD messing with my memory? Overall I don't know. Flying mode was obnoxious as hell in Brawl.

I THINK Wuhu Island should be okay? The dropoffs don't seem to last too long, so any annoying ones won't sting as much.

Windy Hill is definitely doubles legal if it's too big for singles. Pretty much nothing hazardous about the stage. Unless people figure some dumb windmill camp strategy.

I actually really like Jungle Hijinks, but I can also see a lot of iffy strategies developing out of it. Possibly testable though.

Forget whether it should be or not; does anyone even WANT Wooly World legal? Level doesn't look fun at all.

 

[Piford]

I'll share what the subreddit is thinking of running, what we think may have issues for some and which ones we thought could maybe be worth testing out in another science event to see if we could support it.
[collapse=Legal stages]
Battlefield (Mii Verse Depending On If they’re actually different)
Duck Hunt
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pilot Wings
Smashville
Town and City
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Halberd (we're wondering if the large laser hazard will be able to be vectored out of, or if the hazards might have other new things to think about)
Kongo Jungle (depending on the size this time)
Mario Circuit (Wii U) (We worry on this one if people will let it stay)
Skyloft
Wuhu Island (Same worry, a decent number of transformations look significantly bad)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Stages For Testing]
Garden of Hope (Looks big, the bug hazards wont excite most folks to play their either)
Orbital Gate Assault (It looks like a tame moving stages but quite the movement indeed. This one actually has a decent chance if people like it or it's properly defended)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (I never thought this should have been banned in Brawl, but the old sentiment still holds for most. With community support this one has a shot)
Wii Fit Studio (the only walk off anyone wanted to test, and folks said this would stretch testing for science too)
Windy Hill Zone (It's really big looking and the springs plus the windmill don't excite me.)
Wooly World (The walkoffs probably last too long and the platform layout isn't exactly amazing either)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (well, this has a walk off too. people thought it may be less offensive then most with the spole and still possible down kills. Still, not to hopeful here.)
[/collapse]

So every basic stage with no problems would e a stagelist of 10. Not bad, but not amazing either. As long as no issues are present and Wuhu + Mario Circuit (Wii U) have the community fight for them, that's 14 good stages which is awesome. If maybe one or two of the tougher ones ( I could see PS2, OGA, easy, maybe YIM if lucky) we'd have an epic list.

Anything outside the kinda tame isn't going to be legal in the long run. Let's try to focus on the stages that may actually stay.

I doubt the subreddit will except Yoshi's Island Melee even if it's a fine stage. There seems to be an innate hatred for the layout.

I think Windy Hill only looks big, in practice it doesn't seem too bad. I could be wrong though.

I think you should really push for Orbital Gate on the subreddit because people seem to just write it off either because it moves or they think the explosions are actually hazards (there only very minot hazards, better than Halberds). The stage could really add a lot but people are going to think its unfair unless they learn it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't think Flatzone 2 should be allowed even on the most liberal stage list. I would add it to the 7 banned stages you have. The blastzones are too close, the camera doesn't move, and there are overpowerful hazards.

No doubt, I was just trying to be complete.

I suppose to actually be productive and work from my own list, I'd consider the following stages to have a better-than-even shot at widespread acceptance with minimal prodding:

1. Battlefield
2. Big Battlefield
3. Final Destination
4. Smashville
5. Town and City
6. Lylat Cruise
7. Miiverse
8. Duck Hunt
9. Pilotwings
10. Skyloft
11. Wuhu Island
12. Halberd
13. Delfino Plaza

I don't think anything on the above list has anything seriously questionable except from the most conservative stage advocates. Big Battlefield may end up being too big and Miiverse may or may not get lumped in with Battlefield but they have literally nothing going on so they're an easier sell if we were so inclined. It's the rest I'm wondering about:

1. Jungle Hijinxs
2. Mario Circuit
3. Kalos Pokemon League
4. Windy Hill
5. Orbital Gate Assault
6. Kongo Jungle 64
7. Luigi's Mansion
8. Norfair
9. Castle Siege
10. Pokemon Stadium 2
11. Coliseum
12. Gamer
13. Garden of Hope
14. Mushroom Kingdom U
15. Wii Fit Studio
16. Wrecking Crew
17. Woolly World
18. Mario Galaxy

Each of these stages has something working against them, whether it's a specific stage hazard (Mushroom Kingdom U, Gamer), walkoffs (Coliseum, Mario Galaxy), size (Windy Hill, Woolly World), walls and similar surfaces (Luigi's Mansion, Mario Circuit), inertia from previous bans (Norfair, Pokemon Stadium 2), lack of knowledge (Kalos Pokemon League, Wrecking Crew), or just plain not wanting to deal with it (Orbital Gate Assault, Jungle Hijinxs).

Personally I'd be fine fighting on any of the above but that's obviously unrealistic. So I ask cooler heads which of those stages have better chances of acceptance?

 

[Piford]

No doubt, I was just trying to be complete.

I suppose to actually be productive and work from my own list, I'd consider the following stages to have a better-than-even shot at widespread acceptance with minimal prodding:

1. Battlefield
2. Big Battlefield
3. Final Destination
4. Smashville
5. Town and City
6. Lylat Cruise
7. Miiverse
8. Duck Hunt
9. Pilot Wings
10. Skyloft
11. Wuhu Island
12. Halberd
13. Delfino Plaza

I don't think anything on the above list has anything seriously questionable except from the most conservative stage advocates. Big Battlefield may end up being too big and Miiverse may or may not get lumped in with Battlefield but they have literally nothing going on so they're an easier sell if we were so inclined. It's the rest I'm wondering about:

1. Jungle Hijinxs
2. Mario Circuit
3. Kalos Pokemon League
4. Windy Hill
5. Orbital Gate Assault
6. Kongo Jungle 64
7. Luigi's Mansion
8. Norfair
9. Castle Siege
10. Pokemon Stadium 2
11. Coliseum
12. Gamer
13. Garden of Hope
14. Mushroom Kingdom U
15. Wii Fit Studio
16. Wrecking Crew
17. Woolly World
18. Mario Galaxy

Each of these stages has something working against them, whether it's a specific stage hazard (Mushroom Kingdom U, Gamer), walkoffs (Coliseum, Mario Galaxy), size (Windy Hill, Woolly World), walls and similar surfaces (Luigi's Mansion, Mario Circuit), inertia from previous bans (Norfair, Pokemon Stadium 2), lack of knowledge (Kalos Pokemon League, Wrecking Crew), or just plain not wanting to deal with it (Orbital Gate Assault, Jungle Hijinxs).

Personally I'd be fine fighting on any of the above but that's obviously unrealistic. So I ask cooler heads which of those stages have better chances of acceptance?

I guess if we were to limit those 18 down into a better number i'd say this. Well first most educated people know Castle Siege is a good stage and that Kongo Jungle 64 will be good if size isn't an issue, so I'll ignore those two.

1. Windy Hill (because the only possible issue is size)
2. Mario Circuit (Wii U)
3. Orbital Gate Assault
4. Pokemon Stadium 2
5. Luigi's Mansion
6. Kalos Pokemon League
7. Norfair

Those above seem the most easily fought for and acceptable

8. Jungle Hijinx
9. Wooly World

If these don't prove problematic in testing, then its possible to fight for.

10. Wii Fit Studio
11. Coliseum

VGBootcamp actually put some hope for walk-offs considering they said they might include these. And thats coming from the place that banned Arena Ferox.

12. Wrecking Crew
13. Gamer
14. Garden of Hope
15. Mario Galaxy
16. Mushroom Kingdom U

These ones seem like they all have one too many problems. I'd call em legal, but most people won't. That said, Gamer is going to be fun as hell in friendlies.