• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

Nic64

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Messages
1,725
Fair approach doesn't **** Sheik but I still think Marth beats her by a significant margin, IMO worse than Snake does...at least I've always done better with this matchup as Marth than Snake and until recently I played Snake more than Marth. I think in general characters like Sheik or Fox can give Snake more trouble than people give them credit for.
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
The thing with Snake is i'll be on a roll and rack tons of damage up and have Snake at 180% and then i'll die at 100% to an utilt:(
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
Predictable, eh? Everyone knows when Marth is going to Fair. Let's see, Marth short hopped in front of me, I wonder what he's going to do?
Even if that was true (haven't heard of nair, empty shorthop, dancing blade 1, or uair have you?) as I said before that doesn't tell you anything useful because it's so versatile.


So, power-shielding is out, chain I'm almost positive you can fair before it comes out on reaction, and same with needles.


You act like my character is helpless because of Marth's zoning game.
I'm acting like the frame data doesn't support what you suggest reliably occurring in an actual match.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
Why should G&W rise? If anything, the fact that we know how to fight him better, as well as how far we've brought SDI/DI, should at LEAST make him stay where he is, if not make way for somebody else. His smashes are all good, but you can evade them all on reaction alone if you keep an eye out when you're at danger %s. If anything, they're only usable when you want to punish someone you baited/trapped when they had no other choice but get hit.

I don't know what's been going on with Olimar and Pikachu these last few months, but I'm willing to bet my left sock that nothing special has happened with either of them. DDD, should stay in bottom of S/top of A, since he is a fundamentally great stand-alone character with no horrible matchups aside from ICs that does very good across the whole board. Diddy should stay where he is and Falco should stay 4th for the amount of good options that they give the player in every situation (pretty much just a small overview of their traits). Rob, I don't know what to think of him; I've always thought ROB isn't A-tier material, he is too easy to juggle around, and some characters have very nasty things they can do to him. Not to mention that his aerial kill moves are like WOW telegraphed, making his fsmash and grab his best bets at killing opponents (besides gimping)... I really think he got that high due to his huge recovery distance, but like I've stated twice already, these are just my opinions.

I also think the IC's grab shenanigans were overhyped. They're good as well, do good against the whole cast, and have 0>deaths on everyone, but you gotta admit from what we've seen... Getting that game-breaking grab when you truly need it is a pain, and the way you can be separated from Nana so easily and have her die due to a juggle done against her and her lack of evasive maneuvers thus leaving Popo alone in a disadvantaged situation, is too tough for the IC mainer, as well as something we see in every match.
 

PrinceAlias

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Messages
257
Location
Auburn, AL
We all have a character that we wish would rise in the tier list just based off of bias beliefs...geez if it was left up to me Lucas would be in C tier at least lol, but that will never happen and I have come to grips with that.
 

Turbo Ether

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
3,601
Even if that was true (haven't heard of nair, empty shorthop, dancing blade 1, or uair have you?) as I said before that doesn't tell you anything useful because it's so versatile.
Wow, are you serious? Shield covers all of those options and Fair is generally a better attack than the ones that you listed anyway. Fair is also less likely to be out-prioritized, so if you throw out something other than Fair, you're asking to be hit by something. Btw, you forgot Shield Breaker, which isn't exactly the most useful move in his arsenal, but it's still an option nonetheless. This is Smash, mixup options in this game are generally limited and easy to read, and people get predicted all the time, even at the highest levels of play.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,321
Location
Tri-state area
Wow, are you serious? Shield covers all of those options and Fair is generally a better attack than the ones that you listed anyway. Fair is also less likely to be out-prioritized, so if you throw out something other than Fair, you're asking to be hit by something. Btw, you forgot Shield Breaker, which isn't exactly the most useful move in his arsenal, but it's still an option nonetheless. This is Smash, mixup options in this game are generally limited and easy to read, and people get predicted all the time, even at the highest levels of play.
You shield, I get shield pressure, I outspace your grab, it's a minor victory. It covers it, but you get nothing out of it.



I didn't forget anything, that's a short list, there's a lot more (and nair is also safe on shield for the same reasons as fair). Dancing blade 1 can be used to mess up timing because you can fair or nair or something else after it.



Regardless, overall, the point is that powershield is a 3 frame window, it's easy for marth to vary the fair a lot more then 3 frames just using basic SH fair. If you include full-hop, after DB 1, nair, and the hundred other variations, powershielding fair is not likely.
 

Clai

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
1,254
Location
Where men are born and champions are raised
Considering Marth's aerial maneuverability and fast aerials with considerable range, I'd say that Marth has one of tbe best mix-up options in the game. A Marth at the right level is anything but predictable.

I DID NOT!

MY WORD IS LAW YOUNG ONE! DO NOT BE SO NAIVE NEXT TIME, OR I SHALL LET YOUR SOUL DWELL IN AN EVERLASTING BRAWL MATCH WHERE YOU ARE FORCED TO CATCH ME FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!

My word is law. If you accept that, we can have a good day, and move on.
I like this idea, because I like a thrilling chase, and when my Ganondorf catches your Wario, your soul will be forever diminished by the dark lord's magic.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
If you're running into a shield against Marth you're doing it wrong if the Marth is playing his spacing game properly. The punishment game for Sheik involves punishing intentional whiffs that are normally safe against most characters.
 

rathy Aro

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,142
If you're running into a shield against Marth you're doing it wrong if the Marth is playing his spacing game properly. The punishment game for Sheik involves punishing intentional whiffs that are normally safe against most characters.
QFT

where are ppl getting this marth beats sheik idea from? can someone explain how past "fair>sheik's whole moveset lololol"? I suggest ppl watch Ankoku vs Marths and Light vs Marths. didn't read the previous page. lol

Not that it matters. Sheik should stay where she is because no one (as far as I know) demonstrates her high tier ability. There are ppl that have proved she's high-mid but that's it.
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
K Marth beats Sheik we have established that. What does everyone think about Toon Link? Definitely a character on the rise?
 

rathy Aro

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
1,142
i feel like tl's matchups get worse as ppl learn how to fight him. plus i think he has less rep now. idk much about him but i'd guess he's staying where he is unless ppl move above him.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
MK is terrible for TL and TL should not beat a good MK who knows the matchup. With that being said, it's nothing like Fox vs Pika or ZSS lol.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
Fox vs. ZSS is even actually because at high level play dsmash-lock is not pratical. Sooo you're wrong.

Fox vs. Pika is not as bad is everyone thinks too. IT's STILL BAD but not as bad as 90:10. CG may look easy to land but just keep camping and use Ftilt, Jabs, IA Nairs, Bairs, and Grabs it keeps Pika at bay since those moves outrange his grab (lol Pika's grab range) and Fox outcamps Pika.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
MK is terrible for TL and TL should not beat a good MK who knows the matchup. With that being said, it's nothing like Fox vs Pika or ZSS lol.
I think Santi beat Dojo once. Can't remember if it was a set, or just one game.

But seeing how much they play together, thats not surprising. lol
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
Fox vs. ZSS is even actually because at high level play dsmash-lock is not pratical. Sooo you're wrong.
It's practical. It's a punishment. There is no way you can argue that the dsmash lock (an attack that has low startup but nothing THAT low), which can start at any moment between 0% ~ +-100%, which leads into any kill move that might seriously hurt Fox and do an enormous amount of damage in total (as well as might kill depending on the stage), is not a practical punishment option. In theory, you can talk all you want about how "it can be evaded on reaction", but in the heat of a match, when you're doing that one mistake and ZSS just started her dsmash, you're ****ed and now you're in a very disadvantaged position.

Anything that can be used to punish is practical. Even Snake's fsmash is practical at times. Hard to pull off? Now I can agree with that.

And Pika's CG being easy to avoig? Try playing against a cautious Pikachu mainer who spends his time waiting for a mess-up (or baiting reaction) in order to grab. The game gets really gay, but hey, that's Brawl.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
If an MU forces you to play extra smart and extra careful in order to win, then it's not even. Just thought I'd point it out. I know you said Pika isn't even, but you said ZSS is even and she has one very horrible punishment she can do on Fox, so you have to stay on your toes in order to avoid it. Not just that either, ZSS also has some good range on her fast moves to keep up with Fox's speed. It isn't a huge disadvantage for Fox, but it's not dead even (50:50) either.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
Sooo what you're saying is if I can camp which Fox is supposed and if I used my speed against ZSS that Dsmash is easy to land?


EDIT: Kwekky I was talking about pika when playing extra gay not ZSS.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
Its not really easy to land but one = Death. It also has no lag so a ZSS can just use it whenever and you can't punish it.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
But you could apply what you said to what Fox can do let's see ummm....

Hard Nair>Usmash= Death at around 90%

Drillshine offstage= Death at anytime especially since she is a tethergrabber

These example are like what you said hard to land not easy to punish <- but see how contradicting that sounds.

And no one Dsmash on Fox from ZSS does not mean death.

The chain doesn't start until 30% and Fox escapes around 80-90%ish where he can still breathe strings into ZSS's face and also Dsmash would punish an approach right? To start why is fox approaching when he outcamps ZSS?

Long Range>Mid Range.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
Sooo what you're saying is if I can camp which Fox is supposed and if I used my speed against ZSS that Dsmash is easy to land?
No, I'm saying that if you just run in and land around ZSS, who's to say she might expect that and have a dsmash waiting? You'd have to make sure you avoid certain situations by playing extra smart with Fox, meaning you'll have to change some of your routine approaches a bit in order to make sure you're not gonna get dsmashed anywhere (ZSS can also start the chain by dsmashing on a platform, and having the hitbox hit you while you're under it. Works nicely in BF and SV, as well as other platformed counterpicks...

You cut down your options in order to find a win. Seems like a small disadvantage. If you cut them down and even then would have a difficult time winning, then it would be a true disadvantage.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
WHY DOES FOX HAVE TO APPROACH?!?! XD

Sorry but you guys keep putting it in case senerio where Fox approachs.... he outcamps her.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
But you could apply what you said to what Fox can do let's see ummm....

Hard Nair>Usmash= Death at around 90%

Drillshine offstage= Death at anytime especially since she is a tethergrabber

These example are like what you said hard to land not easy to punish <- but see how contradicting that sounds.

And no one Dsmash on Fox from ZSS does not mean death.

The chain doesn't start until 30% and Fox escapes around 80-90%ish where he can still breathe strings into ZSS's face and also Dsmash would punish an approach right? To start why is fox approaching when he outcamps ZSS?

Long Range>Mid Range.
A good ZSS isn't going to get gimped by Fox.
ZSS can crouch.
Dsmash leads into Bair which kills.
Also ZSS Uair > Fox's Dair.
It's not even.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
But you could apply what you said to what Fox can do let's see ummm....

Hard Nair>Usmash= Death at around 90%

Drillshine offstage= Death at anytime especially since she is a tethergrabber

These example are like what you said hard to land not easy to punish <- but see how contradicting that sounds.
The difference between ZSS's and Fox's is that she can do hers at any time between 0% and ~100%. The ones you listed are situations which you have to create in order to do. ZSS's dsmash chain can be done at any time, as long as Fox finds himself within the dsmash's range.

Plus, ZSS shouldn't get hit by a drill offstage. She has her downB invincibility frames, as well as downB footstool. She also has her upB jump boost so she can recover from really high at all times, instead of going through the risk of returning from stage level/lower.

WHY DOES FOX HAVE TO APPROACH?!?! XD

Sorry but you guys keep putting it in case senerio where Fox approachs.... he outcamps her.
Let's see... In this scenario, ZSS has the advantage. ZSS grabs the ledge, and you're waaay on the other side of the stage, shooting lasers. ZSS will never approach. What will Fox do?

But on a more serious note, if ZSS has an advantage and is not going to let her advantage be taken by your lasers, you HAVE to find another way to take it from her. And if she gets near you just to bait a reaction, if you fall for it, it's hurt central time.

Ever heard of footsies?
Footsies are a staple of SF and can lead to gaining alot of momentum in a match. The basic idea is to play versus your opponent heads up, not in the distance of a mid-full screen sonic boom zone war. You apply pressure and constantly attack your opponent with a series of attacks, which are meant to bait the opponent to throw out a move that in his/her mind thinks will punish you, but in reality will whiff and must be punished accordingly.
ZSS has the speed to do this effectively, as well as Fox, but who's the one who won't be approaching, you say...?.


Oh, and the chain starts at 0%. True fact. Just double dsmash, then charge the dsmash until Fox 'touches' the floor out of hitstun. Nothing you can do will beat the frametrapping dsmash.
 

Conviction

Human Nature
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
13,390
Location
Kennesaw, Georgia
3DS FC
1907-8951-4471
Lol here we go a good ZSS >.>

We are to assume both characters are at high level play.

Fox gets percent lead. He camps. ZSS crouches and gets called for stalling <---

That's like say oh well fox can run -.-

Yes a ZSS can get gimped by Fox IA Nairs make a horizontal recovery pretty hard for her.

Lol Fox's Dair leads into Usmash which kills at like 85% on her lightweight.

Lol of course ZSS Uair beats Fox's Dair but wouldn't she be more worried about getting back onstage instead of Uair so she doesn't get edgehogged. But listen Fox's Dair beats ZSS's Usmash and I think he Up B not so sure on the second one >.<

ZSS grab is slow. Fox can shield pressure like a *****. Nair>DJC>Shine takes a good amount of shield away. Or just do the safe thing Nair>Jab>grab now what.

Back to what I saying why would be approaching he can get Dsmash locked?

Edit: your arguement is legit Kewwky but isn't that why people get called for Stalling, and is planking banned too ? >.> Ok but this is the Flaw ZSS has that Fox can approach safely. SH AC Fairs hurt ZSS because she is too tall.

I don't think so.... I won't move the chain starting until 30% until some one brings some proof.


Also quick question can ZSS jab Fox out of a grab release if the Fox forces an air release?
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
Did you really just say crouching was stalling?
I don't know what kind of ZSS' you're playing but gimping them isn't easy.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
Lol here we go a good ZSS >.>

We are to assume both characters are at high level play.

Fox gets percent lead. He camps. ZSS crouches and gets called for stalling <---

That's like say oh well fox can run -.-

Yes a ZSS can get gimped by Fox IA Nairs make a horizontal recovery pretty hard for her.

Lol Fox's Dair leads into Usmash which kills at like 85% on her lightweight.

Lol of course ZSS Uair beats Fox's Dair but wouldn't she be more worried about getting back onstage instead of Uair so she doesn't get edgehogged. But listen Fox's Dair beats ZSS's Usmash and I think he Up B not so sure on the second one >.<

ZSS grab is slow. Fox can shield pressure like a *****. Nair>DJC>Shine takes a good amount of shield away. Or just do the safe thing Nair>Jab>grab now what.

Back to what I saying why would be approaching he can get Dsmash locked?

Edit: your arguement is legit Kewwky but isn't that why people get called for Stalling, and is planking banned too ? >.> Ok but this is the Flaw ZSS has that Fox can approach safely. SH AC Fairs hurt ZSS because she is too tall.

I don't think so.... I won't move the chain starting until 30% until some one brings some proof.


Also quick question can ZSS jab Fox out of a grab release if the Fox forces an air release?
I think it will depend on how many jumps ZSS has. Her recovery gives her a lot of flexibility.
 
Top Bottom