Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Zankoku]

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm not suggesting you use it to get an approach in.

I'm suggesting that nobody needs to approach against fox.


I'm also suggesting the fact that people don't consistently powershield highly telegraphed moves like fox's laser says something about the brawl community, it's late enough in the metagame that it should be a consistent skill, especially since we've known about it since the game came out.

I don't quite understand why nobody has to approach Fox, who has a relatively safe and fast-moving projectile, as opposed to anyone who has absolutely no projectiles. I mean, shielding lasers is going to prevent your damage from going up, but it's not going to get you any closer to winning.

I also don't quite understand what part of "human error" you didn't get from my post, so I'll try to spell it out - Fox can afford to mess up a few lasers, because you're not exactly threatening him by powershielding lasers without approaching. If you miss even one powershield, at best you normal shield it and at worst you take damage. Oops, he's ahead in % now. Asking people to powershield Fox's lasers just because they're "highly telegraphed" is like insisting there's a problem with the guys who aren't powershielding all 11 hits of Zelda's fsmash because they're all "highly telegraphed" hits.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That was a poor comparison and you know it Ankoku.
-.-

 

[Zankoku]

Not really. If you powershield the first hit of Zelda's fsmash then the rest that follow are actually comparatively easy in terms of knowing when they'll come - the hard part is hitting shield on and off that quickly in succession, which is a problem identical with powershielding Fox's lasers consistently.

 

[Conviction]

I still have my previous mindset actually Kewwky.

But as of now it's 60:40 or 55:45 ZSS

 

[Kewkky]

I still have my previous mindset actually Kewwky.

But as of now it's 60:40 or 55:45 ZSS

It's cool, no worries. Our opinions are ours, and I'm not gonna take yours from you. I DID say Fox was disadvantaged, and that it wasn't a counter, so those would seem about right.

 

[-Mars-]

You guys had 3 pages worth of arguments just to say the matchup was 4-6?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't quite understand why nobody has to approach Fox, who has a relatively safe and fast-moving projectile, as opposed to anyone who has absolutely no projectiles. I mean, shielding lasers is going to prevent your damage from going up, but it's not going to get you any closer to winning.

But if you're consistent with power-shielding, then neither is he, if you don't have to approach that makes the match-up easier, and it becomes a spacing battle with both looking for their opponent to make an error.

I also don't quite understand what part of "human error" you didn't get from my post, so I'll try to spell it out - Fox can afford to mess up a few lasers, because you're not exactly threatening him by powershielding lasers without approaching. If you miss even one powershield, at best you normal shield it and at worst you take damage. Oops, he's ahead in % now. Asking people to powershield Fox's lasers just because they're "highly telegraphed" is like insisting there's a problem with the guys who aren't powershielding all 11 hits of Zelda's fsmash because they're all "highly telegraphed" hits.

But it's a matter of tech skill, my expectations of the top of the metagame are similar to Pierce's expectations, powershielding for highly telegraphed moves should be reflexive.


And thanks for the info, I didn't know that was humanly possible, yes, when we're talking top of the metagame I expect people to powershield all 11 hits of the f-smash.


Because "my opponent is gonna screw up" is not adequate justification for a match-up ratio. If the player needs to become consistent with a humanly possible tech skill, there will be people who will do it. Furthermore, we should be able to say, "one of the ways to make the match-up easier is to be consistent in this tech skill" if it's humanly possible and true instead of just ignoring the fact that it exists.

 

[-Mars-]

Show me a match against Fox where any player powershields all of his lasers. Until then please discontinue this silly line of talk.

 

[-Jumpman-]

But if you're consistent with power-shielding, then neither is he, if you don't have to approach that makes the match-up easier, and it becomes a spacing battle with both looking for their opponent to make an error.



But it's a matter of tech skill, my expectations of the top of the metagame are similar to Pierce's expectations, powershielding for highly telegraphed moves should be reflexive.


And thanks for the info, I didn't know that was humanly possible, yes, when we're talking top of the metagame I expect people to powershield all 11 hits of the f-smash.


Because "my opponent is gonna screw up" is not adequate justification for a match-up ratio. If the player needs to become consistent with a humanly possible tech skill, there will be people who will do it. Furthermore, we should be able to say, "one of the ways to make the match-up easier is to be consistent in this tech skill" if it's humanly possible and true instead of just ignoring the fact that it exists.

How is it possible in the first place to power shield lasers with such a high fire rate?

I think Ankoku is right here. Not evne the best players can consistently power shield these lasers.

But it's a matter of tech skill, my expectations of the top of the metagame are similar to Pierce's expectations, powershielding for highly telegraphed moves should be reflexive.

Those expectations are unrealistic, because it's simply not true.

 

[Kewkky]

You guys had 3 pages worth of arguments just to say the matchup was 4-6?

Yes, because unlike what YOU do, we try and persuade others into seeing it our way, and not just SAY "hey, it's my way, shut the **** up and get out of here".

 

[adumbrodeus]

How is it possible in the first place to power shield lasers with such a high fire rate?

Practice, time with the sounds of the lasers coming out (they'll be spaced based on how fast you fire).

I think Ankoku is right here. Not evne the best players can consistently power shield these lasers.



Those expectations are unrealistic, because it's simply not true.

As I said before, that says more about the community then what is actually possible.

I play Street Fighter and Melee also, and nobody complains about things being too hard, we just practice till we got them down.

 

[Conviction]

Show us a match of someone that ALWAYS PS Fox's lasers >.> M2K don't even do that and you don't either.

This is Brawl

 

[Alphicans]

It's not about it being too hard, it's about it being impossible. I say this because half the time your character will be in the air.

 

[Zankoku]

And thanks for the info, I didn't know that was humanly possible, yes, when we're talking top of the metagame I expect people to powershield all 11 hits of the f-smash.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that by "top of the metagame" you meant "when we all receive cybernetic enhancements to our hands." I mean, yeah, the game allows you to stop everything in its tracks, but there isn't a single person who's actually got the ability to pull that **** off in-game.

I play Street Fighter and Melee also, and nobody complains about things being too hard, we just practice till we got them down.

Nobody complains about this kind of bull**** in Melee because they know what's possible and what's practical and they don't bother attempting stupid tricks that are more trouble than they're worth in tournament.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that by "top of the metagame" you meant "when we all receive cybernetic enhancements to our hands." I mean, yeah, the game allows you to stop everything in its tracks, but there isn't a single person who's actually got the ability to pull that **** off in-game.

But the difference is, these things are humanly possible, whereas some of the things that are pulled off in those vids are, but the really powerful stuff simply isn't (I wouldn't be surprised if consistent powershielding hits the metagame though, look at magus). It requires inputs literally every other frame, where you reach the point that you'll get thrown off by hand spasms.

Or, it requires reflexes quicker then frame 8.

Nobody complains about this kind of bull**** in Melee because they know what's possible and what's practical and they don't bother attempting stupid tricks that are more trouble than they're worth in tournament.

Most of the ridiculous tricks are useless, but in melee, if it's useful the community will say, "learn it" without flinching.

What people ignore is the incredibly situational stuff like what silent wolf does.


This is not just frame stuff, there's a pretty large window for powershielding, people SHOULD be able to powershield consistently.

 

[Turbo Ether]

People do powershield consistently, and it's really annoying. Hell, people powershield by accident all the time.

 

[Zankoku]

But the difference is, these things are humanly possible, whereas some of the things that are pulled off in those vids are, but the really powerful stuff simply isn't (I wouldn't be surprised if consistent powershielding hits the metagame though, look at magus). It requires inputs literally every other frame, where you reach the point that you'll get thrown off by hand spasms.

Or, it requires reflexes quicker then frame 8.

Yeah, Magus is good at getting a bunch of inputs in a small amount of time. It's not terribly difficult to powershield several things in succession that you know are coming. That has nothing to do with consistently pressing and releasing the side trigger at a rate of 360 bpm.

This is not just frame stuff, there's a pretty large window for powershielding, people SHOULD be able to powershield consistently.

A "pretty large window"? Tell me just how large it is.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, Magus is good at getting a bunch of inputs in a small amount of time. It's not terribly difficult to powershield several things in succession that you know are coming. That has nothing to do with consistently pressing and releasing the side trigger at a rate of 360 bpm.

Considering that's an input every 10 frames, and it's the same input, I honestly don't see why that's so hard.

A "pretty large window"? Tell me just how large it is.

It's 3 frames IIRC.

 

[Conviction]

It's the same as Fox's shine invicibility..... then if what say is that easy shouldn't all Foxes by now be able to stop most approachs by abusing shine frames?

 

[Zankoku]

Considering that's an input every 10 frames, and it's the same input, I honestly don't see why that's so hard.

You just dissed every single person who doesn't get a full Fantastic/Marvelous combo on any given Stepmania song below 10, man. Nobody can be that on-beat for over 3 minutes, and the timer in standard tournaments is 8 minutes. If you have no intention of approaching nor actually threatening, Fox has no reason to stop simply firing lasers at you from across the stage until you mess up even once and are forced to actually approach. Both of you can continue for whatever amount of time, but the difference is that you'll lose if you mess up while Fox can only stand to gain from the situation.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not really. If you powershield the first hit of Zelda's fsmash then the rest that follow are actually comparatively easy in terms of knowing when they'll come - the hard part is hitting shield on and off that quickly in succession, which is a problem identical with powershielding Fox's lasers consistently.

I think its possible doing it with the classic controller since it lacks springs and then alternating L and R buttons.
I've managed to powershield the lava hits once before >.<

 

[adumbrodeus]

You just dissed every single person who doesn't get a full Fantastic/Marvelous combo on any given Stepmania song below 10, man. Nobody can be that on-beat for over 3 minutes, and the timer in standard tournaments is 8 minutes. If you have no intention of approaching nor actually threatening, Fox has no reason to stop simply firing lasers at you from across the stage until you mess up even once and are forced to actually approach. Both of you can continue for whatever amount of time, but the difference is that you'll lose if you mess up while Fox can only stand to gain from the situation.

No, I expect this of the top of the metagame, however mastering it should be a recommended skill for players with difficulty in the fox match-up.


If you mess up, it's back to you being forced to approach anyway with an inconsequential amount of damage extra. If you don't mess up (and with more practice you should be better), it's a stand-off, but you don't have to approach to pressure, so with lasering rendered a null to force an approach, the match-up is reduced to the same type of zoning and spacing battle that characters without projectiles fight all the time.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, I kinda forgot that the Fox player can just mess with your timing by switching up between SHL, SHDL, SHTL, and standing lasers, and if he stops lasering for a bit and you empty shield expecting one, then your timing is already off for long enough to get hit.

Seriously, if popping you with one laser is all he has to do to get you to play the matchup normally, then you're wasting your time trying to learn how to powershield Fox's lasers to "nullify" his camping game.

Also, if you commit yourself to powershielding Fox's standing lasers, you have zero options to do anything except continue powershielding. So no, you can't pressure in that situation.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Im sonic, I just...run and shield. mwahahaha

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Adumbrodeus, your not recognizing the difference between being humanly possible and applicable vs near machine perfection and near useless.

Your taking a risk by trying to powershield all of Fox's lasers, your assuming you can powershield them all within the small window for 8 minutes, and then you need people to do it without being forced to approach.

If Fox messes up he loses nothing, the person power shielding is the only one who has something to lose from messing up.

 

[Max Ketchum]

lol at adumbrodeus "also playing" Melee and SF

Son, you don't even play Brawl. I've seen you at two tournaments ever, don't act like you're part of the scene of three games when you don't even show up for one. I wonder if you'll ever realize how ridiculous you sound when you come in with some elitist *** attitude telling people they're doing all this **** wrong in a matchup when you haven't even been so far as in a match against that character.

I understand that your skill and your experience has little bearing on the ability to argue, but SERIOUSLY? You have 0 credentials, boy, and the crap you've been spewing isn't run of the mill common sense that people are overlooking. What you're saying is straight revolutionary and far fetched. You seem to be dead set on stating your radical *** theorycraft everywhere someone will read it.

You might try to come off like you know your facts, but you sound so unbelievable. Sure, you can sit and try powershielding every single laser for 8 minutes...that Fox surely won't try to throw your timing off at all, right? He can move. He can get up in your face, win some rock paper scissors, and tack on a damage amount that will set him in the lead.


I can't believe I actually had to explain that to somebody.

 

[FatJackieChan]

How long is this tier list gonna take?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How long is this tier list gonna take?

Whenever they get it done.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Regardless, overall, the point is that powershield is a 3 frame window, it's easy for marth to vary the fair a lot more then 3 frames just using basic SH fair. If you include full-hop, after DB 1, nair, and the hundred other variations, powershielding fair is not likely.

This is not just frame stuff, there's a pretty large window for powershielding, people SHOULD be able to powershield consistently.

Guys, you're all scrubs for not powershielding every single one of Fox's lasers on reaction. It's incredibly easy. Unlike powershielding Marth's aerials, which is borderline impossible to do!

 

[Lightning93]

^ I hope that's sarcasm. You do acknowledge SHTL, SHDL, SHSL, and how much of a disadvantage you are at when you waste time shielding every single laser (if you're capable of doing so)?

 

[ShadowLink84]

lol at adumbrodeus "also playing" Melee and SF

I am bored so I feel like entertaining a troll.

Son, you don't even play Brawl. I've seen you at two tournaments ever, don't act like you're part of the scene of three games when you don't even show up for one. I wonder if you'll ever realize how ridiculous you sound when you come in with some elitist *** attitude telling people they're doing all this **** wrong in a matchup when you haven't even been so far as in a match against that character.

He comes off as elitist?
Really?
I will apologize on his behalf that he is capable of articulating himself in a logical manner without needing to use profanity, slang, or call another individual son.
No really, I am quite serious, since after al, one should never care for the validity of the argument, we should somply go and argue against the source. Argumentum ad hominem.

No really, it does not matter if Einstein used a brilliant argument to support his theory of E=mc^2.
Its because it was EINSTEIN!

I understand that your skill and your experience has little bearing on the ability to argue,

Oh so you admit you are wrong.

Congrats!

Frankly the rest of your post just amounts to "you're not m2k so your argument is MEANINGLESS!"

That or you are so upset in your disagreement with him that you just go the rude path.

I can't believe I actually had to explain that to somebody.

I know, some people are just so rude and obnoxious and obviously stupid.
Really!

^ I hope that's sarcasm. You do acknowledge SHTL, SHDL, SHSL, and how much of a disadvantage you are at when you waste time shielding every single laser (if you're capable of doing so)?

Its more of a statement of what is capable of being done and how pointless it is to say "fox's camping game is SO WTF OMG AMAZING!"
Since really, it isn't, the fact you can powershield it is enought o say it isnt as effective as people make it out to be.

Which is the point.

Guys, you're all scrubs for not powershielding every single one of Fox's lasers on reaction. It's incredibly easy. Unlike powershielding Marth's aerials, which is borderline impossible to do!

Of course you're all scrubs. If Fox is shooting at you from the OTHER SIDE of the stage with his laser, it really does fall down to your imperfectin at powershielding,e specially whent he room for powershielding has increased from melee to brawl, and powershielding was done regularly in melee. A game that was much faster paced than Brawl.

Drop the sarcasm and attitude, you could address the argument as logically as Ankoku does. WHich is both witty AND intelligent.

Of course shame on me for expecting people to act their age.

Anyways, the reason for his statement in regards to Marth's Fair is primarily because he is different from Fox in that he retains his mobility DURING the move. So he is much more free in that aspect in regards to his Fair than Fox's laser.

 

[Paladin77]

Actually, I kinda forgot that the Fox player can just mess with your timing by switching up between SHL, SHDL, SHTL, and standing lasers, and if he stops lasering for a bit and you empty shield expecting one, then your timing is already off for long enough to get hit.

Seriously, if popping you with one laser is all he has to do to get you to play the matchup normally, then you're wasting your time trying to learn how to powershield Fox's lasers to "nullify" his camping game.

Also, if you commit yourself to powershielding Fox's standing lasers, you have zero options to do anything except continue powershielding. So no, you can't pressure in that situation.

So are you for or against fox?

 

[demonictoonlink]

So are you for or against fox?

God I can't stop laughing at this post. I now love you...

lol at adumbrodeus "also playing" Melee and SF

Son, you don't even play Brawl. I've seen you at two tournaments ever, don't act like you're part of the scene of three games when you don't even show up for one. I wonder if you'll ever realize how ridiculous you sound when you come in with some elitist *** attitude telling people they're doing all this **** wrong in a matchup when you haven't even been so far as in a match against that character.

I understand that your skill and your experience has little bearing on the ability to argue, but SERIOUSLY? You have 0 credentials, boy, and the crap you've been spewing isn't run of the mill common sense that people are overlooking. What you're saying is straight revolutionary and far fetched. You seem to be dead set on stating your radical *** theorycraft everywhere someone will read it.

You might try to come off like you know your facts, but you sound so unbelievable. Sure, you can sit and try powershielding every single laser for 8 minutes...that Fox surely won't try to throw your timing off at all, right? He can move. He can get up in your face, win some rock paper scissors, and tack on a damage amount that will set him in the lead.


I can't believe I actually had to explain that to somebody.

Personally, nothing against Adum, but this is the best post in the thread. Debate it all you want; it's the truth. The theorycraft is getting to disgusting levels...

 

[noradseven]

^^^ thats the way some people describe stalling, but some people also refer to it as running the clock, or commonly in other fighters waiting 5-6 seconds for some gauge to finish filling.




**** this match its annoying I think its in foxes favor, overall the infinite has many problems with setting it up combine that with foxes playstyle and good ****ing luck landing a d-smash in the right conditions, d-air/down B really mindgame the **** out of us our best option many times is to either block it, then go for a u-tilt(ours is 3frames), or just u-smash, but you can bait both of those, and we lose more everytime you guess right. Another option probably the best one is to play air footies with you playing air footies with fox is kinda weird cause he has the ability to stall like a few others but he has even faster vertical movement than us. Plus the advantage here is we don't lose nearly as bad when we guess wrong however we will not guess right as much overall its a frusterating match, because its basically a coin flip on the ground, I guess its a bit more interesting in the air but still it feels so boring.

Overall its a close match im thinking 5:5 and its just my eternal frustration with team starfox thats bothering me here.

Also what is the problem with lasers you can just like eat like 5-6% and get in close I mean wooo so bad 5-6% I mean we arn't dealing with falco or some ****, I mean I always here people ***** about foxes laser or tell me PS it or something why why should I bother if I want to run the clock I will hang on the edge which owns for us. and if I want to pressure you then I will just come at you probably a jump to avoid the lasers.
Ohhh wait thats right fox = shoto, only his fireballs do no knockback, seriously he wants us to jump okay so I just shorthop early fast fall, d-tilt/PS>d-tilt is the quickest way to wreck a scrub fox who relys on blaster dashing u-smash too much, even if you don't take the bait you now gotta play ground footies with ZSS *hint ya lose, or jump first *hint bad idea.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Drop the sarcasm and attitude,

Excuse me? I didn't realize you were my father. The debate and theorycraft that exists in these threads is generally useless trash. When bored, I will entertain myself by randomly participating/troll as I please. Which is still less useless than telling people to start powershielding Fox's lasers.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Personally, nothing against Adum, but this is the best post in the thread. Debate it all you want; it's the truth. The theorycraft is getting to disgusting levels...

Personally nothing against you or anyone else, but the whole "OMFG THEORYCRAFT" has gotten to such levels that it is nauseating.

It will be a long time, if ever for most of these characters to reach their true potential.
TO make any statement of "theorycraft" in a negative connotation is terrible, because of the fact that there are two ends of the spectrum.

There is the good which is supportable, which IS what adumbrodeus' argument is following (obviously we have seen this occur and know that it IS indeed possible.).

Then there is the BAD theory craft, think perfect Fox. Or Perfect Sonic.
THAT is bad because while it may exist, it will never occur due to human restrictions.

So no, it isnt that the level of theorycraft has hit disgusting levels, its that thenegative attitude regarding theory has hit such disgusting levels that any notion regarding theory is automatically looked upon negatively.

Rather than simply take it as is, and then deem if it was either of those two ends. Rather than go "OMFG THEORY CRAFT" since doing that is the same as saying "TR4Q".

Read it, debate it, dont automatically play a theorycraft card when it doesnt go your way.
Your being in general, not at a specific person.

Excuse me? I didn't realize you were my father.

I am sorry I did not realize that the proverbial stick in *** had taken on a literal meaning. If you dislike what I said, obviously it must have had a ring of truth to it since otherwise, you would NOT have responded the way you just did.

The debate and theorycraft that exists in these threads is generally useless trash. When bored, I will entertain myself by randomly participating/troll as I please. Which is less useless than telling people to start powershielding Fox's lasers.

Really?
okay

Eddie is NOT the best character GGXXAC
Fox is NOT the best character in Melee.
Every character is beatable.

Seriously, if you are going to troll, if you are going to needlessly attack others when they give you a proper argument and debate on a matchup, then kindly leave.
Really, the mods should just start dishing out infractions more often because posts like Dooms and yours really have no place in the forum at all. Not even the pool room. (badumpish?)



Anyways, inr egards to the matchup.
I wouldnt say it is a hardcounter, primarily because while her Dsmash is safe, it isnt as if she has a guaranteed setup.

I would dareday its similar to the IC's infinite grab. Its REALLY friggin scary, and when it does occur it SHOULD result in a stock. However, Fox does have the tools to deal with it, to space himself and avoid the dreaded stun of doom.

His ability to punish harshly is usefl in the matchup because of ZSS light weight. Meaning she has just as much room for error as he does(maybe a bit more).
The primariy issue being that over all, she beats him aerially, her ability to space is greater than his and Fox's ability to recover is poorer and easier to deal with than hers.

She also takes advantage of landcamping him. (say all you want shinestalling is just hat, stalling, it may slow you down, but doesnt solve the problem of ZSS being underneath you or edgeguarding you)

 

[Max Ketchum]

lol Shadowlink, keep white knightin' it up. Sleep takes precedence over arguing with the cast of the Big Bang Theory, I'm going to hit the sack.

 

[Alphicans]

Wait so does someone actually agree with the guy saying powershielding everything is realistic?

 

[M@v]

Snakee has played my fox and more importantly, R00kies fox. He hates the matchup and Cps it with sheik.

I rest my case

 

[Turbo Ether]

Snakee has played my fox and more importantly, R00kies fox. He hates the matchup and Cps it with sheik.

I rest my case

Sorry, bro, this isn't relevant information because you didn't provide pages of theorycraft to support it. Thus this statement will be discarded!