Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Alphicans]

If ZSS crouches and you're ahead, I don't see why that would change if you're going to approach or not.

 

[Conviction]

Did you really just say crouching was stalling?
I don't know what kind of ZSS' you're playing but gimping them isn't easy.

XD yea I did.

I didn't say it was easy but in your last post you say a good ZSS won't get gimped implying ZSS wil never get gimped.

Gimping ZSS is possible and Fox has some tools to try with.

Have you played any good Foxes? <--- was not meant to be a rude comment.

Edit: Precent lead makes the other approach. That's like saying Falco gets the lead on Fox but Fox can just sit in his Shine and it will force the Falco to approach.

Fox and Falco have a reflector battle (lol)

The Fox will get called for stalling instead Falco because Falco had the precent lead see what I'm saying.

Edit 2; I understand what you saying AlmostLegendary but you can space the Nair to outspace the Down b kick from ZSS and since it's a sex kick you can mess with her Double Jump.

Edit 3 (lol): Can we get the other Fox mainers in here and ZSS mainers can call this the Fox vs. ZSS match-up discussion?

 

[Chuee]

Approaching isn't bad for ZSS.

 

[Kewkky]

Fox gets percent lead. He camps. ZSS crouches and gets called for stalling <---

Umm... No, she won't. UTD Zac stalled ADHD at HOBO 21 by planking, and never got called out for it. He 2-stocked ADHD first match and almost won the set, too, thanks to this 'tactic'... ADHD tried to get him out by calling the TOs, but they didn't do anything, so I don't see why ZSS's crouching would be considered stalling.

That's like say oh well fox can run -.-

But Fox can hurt ZSS while she's crouching. She's not in a position where getting to her will result in loss of a stock or huge damage, so it's not stalling.

Yes a ZSS can get gimped by Fox IA Nairs make a horizontal recovery pretty hard for her.

But not a vertical recovery. When people properly DI, they try and go to the upper corners of the stage as to avoid the blast zones as much as possible. If ZSS does this, I don't see her at stage level until she is, well, on the stage.

Lol Fox's Dair leads into Usmash which kills at like 85% on her lightweight.

At 85%. ZSS's dsmash leads into dsmash at 0%, until 100%, which then leads into whatever strong move she wishes. And if you're in a stage with close blast zones, that's it for Fox.

Lol of course ZSS Uair beats Fox's Dair but wouldn't she be more worried about getting back onstage instead of Uair so she doesn't get edgehogged. But listen Fox's Dair beats ZSS's Usmash and I think he Up B not so sure on the second one >.<

ZSS's uair has a very strong knockback, so as soon as you get hit and start flying off to who knows where, she'll be ready to upB do the stage in no time (literally, that move has very little endlag, which makes it a great airdodge punisher).

ZSS grab is slow. Fox can shield pressure like a *****. Nair>DJC>Shine takes a good amount of shield away. Or just do the safe thing Nair>Jab>grab now what.

Her grab might suck, but it's not something she can't live without., Her game revolves around pressuring, so enough pressuring would eventually beat out her need to look for grabs. On characters as quick as Fox, I'd expect a ZSS to never try to grab, since dsmash is a better option and faster (unless the Fox has a tendency to shieldzone ZSS, then she can grab however she desires).

Back to what I saying why would be approaching he can get Dsmash locked?

Because you're forced to at some points. You don't NEED to approach when you have an advantage, but when you don't and camping just won't cut it, it's time to play the game differently.

Edit: your arguement is legit Kewwky but isn't that why people get called for Stalling, and is planking banned too ? >.> Ok but this is the Flaw ZSS has that Fox can approach safely. SH AC Fairs hurt ZSS because she is too tall.

... Umm, AC'd fairs? I think ZSS would be moving away from you and charging dsmashes at that fair of yours if you try THAT 'landing approach'.

I don't think so.... I won't move the chain starting until 30% until some one brings some proof.

I do it all the time at 0+%... I can't bring proof though, in order for you to believe this is for you to try it out yourself with a ZSS mainer next to you, since a video won't be enough to say "Fox could've jumped/shined".


EDIT: Ugh, you guys talk too fast. I can't keep up. D:

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm sorry but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what stalling is floating around.


Stalling is required to render the game unplayable (perfect invincability for as long as you want, impossible to reach position, etc), basically if the game is over as long as the staller executes it perfectly and the staller is winning, then you're talking about something that can be called for stalling.

Just crouching is an example of camping, because fox can still hurt ZSS, he just has to approach to do so.


Also, people need to just powershield fox's lasers.

 

[Conviction]

And people just need to PS Falco's Laser's and all other projectiles in the game.

and Ok thanks for clearing up the Stalling confusion.


Kwekky SH AC Fairs give Fox the same horizontal mobility as Peach when she is Floating, so I can just fade back and away from your Dsmash or land behind you (landing behind you is not a bright idea though) and no I'll believe you if you put the CPU on Jump in pratice mode and show me on a vid

 

[Chuee]

Dsmash has range mah boi.

 

[Kewkky]

Kwekky SH AC Fairs give Fox the same horizontal mobility as Peach when she is Floating, so I can just fade back and away from your Dsmash or land behind you (landing behind you is not a bright idea though) and no I'll believe you if you put the CPU on Jump in pratice mode and show me on a vid

So, while you're fair-ing, you can go back and forth as fast as Peach can while floating? Or as soon as you fair, you can't adjust yourself as well as that? Cuz from what I remember, commiting to Fox's fair means your aerial mobility will get quite weird.

And, sadly, I have no Wii... My Wii broke down this summer. So, I gues I can't prove it right now. I COULD if you go to Pound4 and we play a quick "let's try and see" match where you let me dsmash you at 0% to see if it works or not, though, since I'll be there.

 

[Conviction]

Fair has range my friend. (One Fox's few moves that does)

OK I'M GETTING ZSS MAINERS this gonna be a match-up discussion XD

EDIT: I would love to go to Pound 4 but I can't T.T I'm stuck in GA tournies or close by SC/NC/AL/FL tournies.


Maybe NJ/NY tournies but not now.

Edit 2: you can move as Fast.

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

Diddy isn't better than MK.

 

[Kewkky]

Edit 2: you can move as Fast.

I see. Still, Samus could just run backwards, turn around, charge a dsmash and hit your hurtbox extensions. Unless I'm mistaken (which I won't doubt since I haven't researched Fox's stuff thoroughly), his fair doesn't have any extreme disjoints that beat out ZSS' dsmash... A short-hopped auto-cancelled fair means that you will be landing to cancel that fair. ZSS's dsmash has some pretty nice range. With no disjoints, Fox will land right into ZSS's dsmash, and it won't be hard for ZSS to set this up (when Fox jumps, it's common sense to get away from him, since a dair is what most people expect, so we move. If instead of a dair you do a SH fair, we still move out of the way due to us thinking you're gonna do something that will hurt us).

And, humm. Dunno what else to say. The whole argument was about ZSS vs Fox being even since Fox can evade her dsmash if he plays gay, but the dsmash is used as a punishment move with a large amount of follow-ups, and in a real match, avoiding punishment moves is harder than avoiding normal moves if you make the mistake they're waiting for.

 

[Conviction]

Well camping is expected and Fox AC Fairing I really wouldn't consider gay. XD

But yea I can just retreat the Fair so I won't get hit.

But there has to be other points in this match-up we can touch. hmmm

who gimps who better?

What options does ZZS/Fox have OOS?

Who has better recovery?

Stuff like that.

 

[Chuee]

Well camping is expected and Fox AC Fairing I really wouldn't consider gay. XD

But yea I can just retreat the Fair so I won't get hit.

But there has to be other points in this match-up we can touch. hmmm

who gimps who better?

What options does ZZS/Fox have OOS?

Who has better recovery?

Stuff like that.

ZSS has better recovery
gimping is prob. Fox but ZSS can Dsmash Fox's Side-B if she times it right. Neither will gimp the other often.

 

[Conviction]

Umm Fox has Rising Fair, Shinestalling, FireFox, and Illision. I think he has the better recovery.

Since most of the time Fox makes ZSS approach and she has not really any good approaches Fox can dominate her and start making strings (correct me if I'm wrong but) ZSS has no combo breakers.

EDIT: Opps her jab right?

 

[Kewkky]

But, we're not doing a match-up discussion, just saying who's disadvantaged/advantaged, and clarifying a few points. o_o

But, just to answer the questions...

Well camping is expected and Fox AC Fairing I really wouldn't consider gay. XD Nah, more like an effective application of fair. Just call it an "extra" option.

But yea I can just retreat the Fair so I won't get hit. ZSS won't get hit either, and now you're commited to the fair. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me to retreat a fair, ZSS's dash attack is pretty good.

who gimps who better? Fox's gimps are more effective, but ZSS has an easier time doing it due to bair stagespike/dsmash>downB spike offstage and the such.

What options does ZZS/Fox have OOS? Fox does better here. Just grab or nair her OoS and you've pretty much got it covered. She can uair OoS, but I don't know if Fox will be hit due to his height.

Who has better recovery? Both are so different, I can't really say. ZSS can return to the stage easier the normal way (DI and land on-stage, grab the ledges, her own unique recovery being downB footstool, her upB jump boost...), but Fox has a great tool as well: his downB stalling! It really messes up people who depend on intercepting your sideB's with attacks, since you can just stall until they do an attack, then sideB back on-stage immediately.

Stuff like that.

!!

Umm Fox has Rising Fair, Shinestalling, FireFox, and Illision. I think he has the better recovery.

That's called a more 'versatile' recovery, meaning he has lots of options. But they all are used in their own situations, which pretty much means he's limited on recoveries to: 1 vertical recovery, 1 diagonal recovery, and 1 horizontal recovery. You can't really aim any of them as well as a tether, either, and a tether is faster and surprises more than all of them... And when you add in her downB and her downB footstool, as well as upB jump boost, she gets a more effective recovery. His shinestalling is quite awesome, though.

Since most of the time Fox makes ZSS approach and she has not really any good approaches Fox can dominate her and start making strings (correct me if I'm wrong but) ZSS has no combo breakers.

MK approaches all the time and gains advantages easily, so approaching =/= disadvantage... And ZSS can string Fox to hell and back, too. She can also downB out of strings, or jab out of ground strings.

 

[Chuee]

ZSS has a better DJ and her tether is extremely long and she has flipjump.

 

[Jinxkatrina8]

Hmmm... More discussion on Jiggs, pl0x?

I disagree with her placement.

 

[Chuee]

Jiggz is fine where she is.
Dies EXTREMELLY early
Bad kill moves.
Bad overall range
Terrible ground game.
Thats jiggz for ya.

 

[Conviction]

Jiggz is fine where she is.
Dies EXTREMELLY early
Bad kill moves.
Bad overall range
Terrible ground game.
Thats jiggz for ya.

Quoted for truth. Sorry.

Jiggz vs. Fox

What ummm 50% Usmash gg Jiggz.

Want some more lasers with that kick?

Fox's DJ is increased by Fair can gives us the mobility again.

FoxFire goes as Far as her tether does.

 

[Chuee]

Fire is extremely slow and gives the opponent plenty of time to ledgegrab.

 

[Kewkky]

Fire is extremely slow and gives the opponent plenty of time to ledgegrab.

QFT. You can't bair stagespike a tether as easily as a firefox, nor dair it due to its speed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Jiggz is fine where she is.
Dies EXTREMELLY early
Bad kill moves.
Bad overall range
Terrible ground game.
Thats jiggz for ya.

Her air game is good, but pretty much all of these reasons are why she's held back.

 

[Conviction]

Shinestall to throw off timing of the FireFox. So it's versality vs. effectiveness.

But that's the thing wouldn't Fair beat DA? I when I mean AC it has no lag when Fox lands.

Dash Attack would mean Usmash. Fox's Usmash is 8 frames. 4 frames to jump+4 frames for the Nair to come out. I choose Usmash at % and Nair for lower precents.

EDIT: I can wait for you to swing down with you tether and use the sex kick part of the nair to drop down with. (Wait can you guys auto snap so she's flys to the ledge when using the tether? I'll just IA Nair if you guys can)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Fox gets percent lead. He camps. ZSS crouches and gets called for stalling <---

Um, no, no she would not.
That was just...stupid.

Yes a ZSS can get gimped by Fox IA Nairs make a horizontal recovery pretty hard for her.

Err, what? DI solves that problem by far. Let alone she covers a good amount of distance with her down B alone.

Lol Fox's Dair leads into Usmash which kills at like 85% on her lightweight.

I discussed this at length sometime ago. Dair can be DI'ed resulting in your Usmash being powershielded.

Lol of course ZSS Uair beats Fox's Dair but wouldn't she be more worried about getting back onstage instead of Uair so she doesn't get edgehogged. But listen Fox's Dair beats ZSS's Usmash and I think he Up B not so sure on the second one >.<

How does his Dair beat out a disjointed attack?
The ^B doesnt beat it out either, it loses to it. -_-
Let alone why Upsmash when she can uair~Utilt and groundcamp the hell out of you?

ZSS grab is slow. Fox can shield pressure like a *****. Nair>DJC>Shine takes a good amount of shield away. Or just do the safe thing Nair>Jab>grab now what.

DJC? You'll have to forgive me if I dont recognize the terms.
I dont recall Fox having anything that can lock anyone into their shield because of how piss poor shield stun is in this game.

SZZ doesnt need to grab since she can jab or just, not get close to a character who has dedicated approach options.

How does Fox's camp work well? Maybe against Falco but overall? his camping ability isnt the greatesteither.

Back to what I saying why would be approaching he can get Dsmash locked?

because he has dedicated approaches and is also limited in terms of approaching due to his fast falling which makes it difficult for him to cross up the opponent and vary his aerial attacks which also tend to last a long time.

Edit: your arguement is legit Kewwky but isn't that why people get called for Stalling, and is planking banned too ? >.> Ok but this is the Flaw ZSS has that Fox can approach safely. SH AC Fairs hurt ZSS because she is too tall.

WHAT!?
Did you just say SH Fairs hurt her because she is tall?
Hmm gee, why cant she, you know, shield it and punish?
Primarily because shieldstun is very poor and she has good range to her attacks too.

I don't think so.... I won't move the chain starting until 30% until some one brings some proof.

Can you bring proof as well?
IIRC, it was originally shownt hat it started at 0%
Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Kool Aid]

goo pit i guess

 

[Kewkky]

Shinestall to throw off timing of the FireFox. So it's versality vs. effectiveness.

I'm talking about when you start your firefox. It takes so long to finally start shooting off, people have the time to pinpoint where you'll be at what time. The tether is so fast that in less than 10 frames, we're already climbing the ledge with a getup attack.

But that's the thing wouldn't Fair beat DA? I when I mean AC it has no lag when Fox lands.

It probably depends on when the fair's hitboxes keep activating. If a fair kick stops and before the next one starts we hit you with our dash attack (which is a long-lasting hitbox), it pretty much beats your retreating fair. We could also sideB you before you land, as well as shoot a small paralizer shot.

Dash Attack would mean Usmash. Fox's Usmash is 8 frames. 4 frames to jump+4 frames for the Nair to come out. I choose Usmash at % and Nair for lower precents.

I'd rather use an aerial and not risk my opponent shield it and punish me, than the other options. But yeah, nair for lower %s and usmashes at killing %s sounds good to me.

EDIT: I can wait for you to swing down with you tether and use the sex kick part of the nair to drop down with. (Wait can you guys auto snap so she's flys to the ledge when using the tether? I'll just IA Nair if you guys can)

You DO know that we can pull up as soon as we tether, right? We only swing down if we want to, when we feel like it could be a nice mindgame. Otherwise, we just tether>pull the tether>grab the ledge way too fast for anyone to react appropriately if they don't know what (of all the horizontal options we have) we're going to do. Sure, your nair is nice, but hard to hit us with it if we mix up our recovery options constantly: it keeps you thinking, which is precious time earned for us.


EDIT: You can't shield a dash attack of ours if we dash attack your fair while you're in the air. We're not just going to wait for you to be close to the ground before we attack.

 

[Conviction]

SL I wanna see some every single time Fox goes for a Dair SDI it all the time perfectly to shield it.

It explain quite a while ago, that if what you were saying was so easy to do people wouldn't get hit by TL's Fsmash, Pit's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Fsmash and such.

Now you're just being stubborn about the can I bring you proof do I like a main ZSS?

So you're gonna always DI Soft Nairs SO HIGH to stage?

I guesss you don't read >.> you missed the AC Fair gives the same mometum to Fox as Peach to her Float.

SH Shine (close to the ground)>Nair stops all sheildgrabbing, and she tether grabs so jabbing her shield is too easy after landing, then grab. It's brawl possible hard to believe but possible. Go to Fox boards and look up Delux Sunshine Combo. It works especially on people like ZSS.

You speak like human are automated TAS systems do all these amazing things -.- people make mistakes.


Also did you skip the part where Fox gets the lead precent and then camps? So where's your approaching?

How does Fox's Dair beat Oli's Usmash? IDK it does. Same concept for ZSS's Usmash. XD

My main concern with you is didn't Kewwky and I just got done arguing this stuff? All I wanna is did you read like the last three pages? Or you decided to attack me I'm hard to resist.


Edit: thanks for clearing that up Kewwky, also I was just point out the Nair great option. Not saying it's gonna hit all the time though. This an lol question but what I just decide to grab the edge?

 

[Alphicans]

Are you from a different country? That made little to no sense to me :\.

 

[Conviction]

Japanese actually.

 

[ShadowLink84]

SL I wanna see some every single time Fox goes for a Dair SDI it all the time perfectly to shield it.

I've done it to rookie repeatedly when I faced him. The only time I dont do it is on the rare occassion that I dont do it.

Seriuosly, if you are going to try and bring in the "perfect" bs, then it shuold remain 7-3 because Fox cant perfectly camp ZSS, cant perfectl edgeguard her.

It explain quite a while ago, that if what you were saying was so easy to do people wouldn't get hit by TL's Fsmash, Pit's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Fsmash and such.

They don't.

TL's Fsmash is easily DI'ed due to the stupid hitlag on it.
Same for Ddy's Fsmash.
Same for WOlf's Fsmash


Learn to DI. It is not my fault the majority of people out there SUCK

Now you're just being stubborn about the can I bring you proof do I like a main ZSS?

You find it privvy to ask others, why should you be exempt?

So you're gonna always DI Soft Nairs SO HIGH to stage?

You're always going to land said soft Nair?
It goes both ways.

I guesss you don't read >.> you missed the AC Fair gives the same mometum to Fox as Peach to her Float.

Momentum? I think you are using the wrong word. If you mean mobility, it doesn't. I checked.

SH Shine (close to the ground)>Nair stops all sheildgrabbing, and she tether grabs so jabbing her shield is too easy after landing, then grab. It's brawl possible hard to believe but possible. Go to Fox boards and look up Delux Sunshine Combo. It works especially on people like ZSS.

ZSS would NEVER shieldgrab though because its a BAD idea. She is far better off using a jump cancel or jabbing out of her shield, or tilting out of her sheild.

Its a bad idea to think she WILL shieldgrab.

You speak like human are automated TAS systems do all these amazing things -.- people make mistakes.

Oh word?
Okay, then Ganondorf will eventually win a tournament. We just have to assume people make mistakes often enough.
Sorry, that doesn't fly.

Also did you skip the part where Fox gets the lead precent and then camps? So where's your approaching?

Its also at the part you skipped where ZSS crouches.

How does Fox's Dair beat Oli's Usmash? IDK it does. Same concept for ZSS's Usmash. XD

Um no.
Olimar's pikmin are SPECIAL priority. They follow the tenpercent rule.
ZSS Usmash? It doesnt, but the points during which it has a hitbox is kinda weird. So it may look like you beat it tout, but you didnt.

My main concern with you is didn't Kewwky and I just got done arguing this stuff? All I wanna is did you read like the last three pages? Or you decided to attack me I'm hard to resist.

I wanted to address the argument since that is what I saw when I logged on. My computer didnt update the next page hence Iw as like -_-

 

[Kewkky]

Japanese actually.

You're japanese? o_O

Do you live in japan? If so, who's the best Kirby there? I wanna see some videos of him and see why they say Kirby's so low.

SL I wanna see some every single time Fox goes for a Dair SDI it all the time perfectly to shield it.

Actually, I do this a lot... Both with Kirby and ZSS (more often with Kirby).

It explain quite a while ago, that if what you were saying was so easy to do people wouldn't get hit by TL's Fsmash, Pit's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Fsmash and such.

Umm, people DO evade these things, but it depends if the opponent barely reached them. TL's fsmash is practically impossible with some characters since he moves forward on the 2nd hit and can do the 2nd hit ASAP to assure it hurries up (light characters like Kirby evade it without SDI though), Pit's and Diddy's fsmash have been DI'd a lot in a bunch of videos I've seen due to their 2nd hit not being all that different from the 1st one.

SH Shine (close to the ground)>Nair stops all sheildgrabbing, and she tether grabs so jabbing her shield is too easy after landing, then grab. It's brawl possible hard to believe but possible. Go to Fox boards and look up Delux Sunshine Combo. It works especially on people like ZSS.

You can jab her shield, but she can utilt OoS as well as ftilt OoS against the incoming grab. SH Shine>Nair I believe, though.

How does Fox's Dair beat Oli's Usmash? IDK it does. Same concept for ZSS's Usmash. XD

ZSS's usmash is an ENORMOUS disjointed move (hitbox is not part of the hurtbox) that stays out for quite a long time, and is multi-hit. If you approach with a dair, well... You'll be the one ending up hit.

Edit: thanks for clearing that up Kewwky, also I was just point out the Nair great option. Not saying it's gonna hit all the time though. This an lol question but what I just decide to grab the edge?

Well, if you grab the ledge, we can upB boost jump, then downB footstool to gain some huge distance. This usually covers around half of FD's length.

 

[Conviction]

My location says GA -.- I'm not in Japan anymore.

Best bet is for you guys to SDI behind us i guess, but just because it's SDI'able is not mean not gonna happen.

SL things are options in brawl not set in stone it will always work it what I'm trying to say.

 

[Zankoku]

Also, people need to just powershield fox's lasers.

Haha, what? Are you serious? What exactly is this supposed to accomplish? Ignoring how much more work you're doing pressing shield at the correct times to do this compared to the Fox just mashing out some lasers, they barely deal any shield damage or stun anyways. Hell, with the number of times you'll have to shield, you won't even have that strong of an approach since you'll be moving at roughly a third of your normal walking speed.

 

[Kewkky]

My location says GA -.- I'm not in Japan anymore.

I'm not from USA, I don't even know what half those acronyms mean. : |

So, out of all this discussion we've had... Would you agree that Fox has it tougher than ZSS? Or are you still holding onto your previous mindset and thinking it's evenish? Hope it's the former.

 

[Lightning93]

I would be fine considering the Fox v ZSS MU in ZSS's favor, but in no way is it considered a hard counter. I haven't been able to see if anyone said it was, but I would have to disagree if they did.

 

[Kewkky]

I would be fine considering the Fox v ZSS MU in ZSS's favor, but in no way is it considered a hard counter. I haven't been able to see if anyone said it was, but I would have to disagree if they did.

I don't think anyone's said it's a counter/hard counter, so rest easy. We've just said 'Fox is disadvantaged" vs "Fox goes even".

Anyway, enough off-topicness (even if it is clarifying points in someone's arguments)! Jiggs will remain bottom tier, dohohohoho!

 

[Turbo Ether]

Also, people need to just powershield fox's lasers.

Wait. This is a good idea, but powershielding Marth's aerials is a mythical feat that should almost never occur, because Marth's options are so, so unpredictable? k

 

[Palpi]

Her air game is good, but pretty much all of these reasons are why she's held back.

An air game that can hit trade with almost every attack...with a character that dies nearly 20-40% before a huge bulk of characters? Jiggs air game is not by all means good.

It is like a MK getting blown up with a nado or fair from snakes nade. Mk may be up 5%, but snake won't die until 160% when MK will die 40% earlier.

 

[Clai]

Shinestall to throw off timing of the FireFox. So it's versality vs. effectiveness.

Firefox has start-up time, so people can just wait out your shinestalling and then wait until the Firefox starts moving and then edgehog it.

Also, why are people bringing up powershielding Fox's lasers? That takes way too effort to avoid an attack that does pittance for damage and has absolutely no effect on the opponent when he/she/it gets hit. If Fox really wanted to outcamp you, he'd just be on the ground spamming the B button until the opponent gets too close and then Fox can go to the other side and repeat the process.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And people just need to PS Falco's Laser's and all other projectiles in the game.]

Depends on the projectile. Powershielding Falco's projectiles is realistic and a matter of techskill, the reason that they're useful anyway is best of the level of control they give at medium range, they severely limit the opponents options, simply because they have hitstun.

Fox, on the hand, at that range I can chose to simply ignore the laser when I want to do something.



Pit CAN projectile camp though, his projectiles can be juked, preventing reliable powershielding.



Honestly, the reason why Falco's projectiles are useful anyway is on the frontpage as well.

SL I wanna see some every single time Fox goes for a Dair SDI it all the time perfectly to shield it.

Top of the metagame, remember?

It explain quite a while ago, that if what you were saying was so easy to do people wouldn't get hit by TL's Fsmash, Pit's Fsmash, Diddy Kong's Fsmash and such.

Top of the metagame.

You speak like human are automated TAS systems do all these amazing things -.- people make mistakes.

When people PRACTICE tech skills like these, they can pull them off nearly automatically.

Look at the melee metagame, it's entirely based around stuff that reasonably hard, and anyway half-way reasonable fox had to put in 4 times the amount of tech skill training as you would need to learn everything in brawl, and it gets executed consistently.


So yes, while people make mistakes, it should be rare.

Haha, what? Are you serious? What exactly is this supposed to accomplish? Ignoring how much more work you're doing pressing shield at the correct times to do this compared to the Fox just mashing out some lasers, they barely deal any shield damage or stun anyways. Hell, with the number of times you'll have to shield, you won't even have that strong of an approach since you'll be moving at roughly a third of your normal walking speed.

I think you're misunderstanding, I'm not suggesting you use it to get an approach in.

I'm suggesting that nobody needs to approach against fox.


I'm also suggesting the fact that people don't consistently powershield highly telegraphed moves like fox's laser says something about the brawl community, it's late enough in the metagame that it should be a consistent skill, especially since we've known about it since the game came out.

Also, why are people bringing up powershielding Fox's lasers? That takes way too effort to avoid an attack that does pittance for damage and has absolutely no effect on the opponent when he/she/it gets hit. If Fox really wanted to outcamp you, he'd just be on the ground spamming the B button until the opponent gets too close and then Fox can go to the other side and repeat the process.

Powershielding should be automatic at the top of the metagame, and if you powershield, you don't need to approach. Or in this case crouch too.