Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[MysteriousSilver]

I'd imagine it matters to PT mains.

 

[DMG]

I'd imagine it matters to Reflex, Magik, and like 2-3 other guys like Steeler, Chuck Nasty, and Typh if he cares anymore.

fixed.

 

[phi1ny3]

on what frames does it AC

if these forums are to be believed, half of all aerials auto cancel. seems there is a LOT of misunderstandings on the difference between auto-cancelling, 'low landing lag' and the attack simply finishing before they hit the ground >_>

The terms is easier to say than low landing lag and often serves the purpose just as well.
Pretty much most aerials only gain true "AC" status near the beginning of the aerial before the hitbox comes out or near the end just before you're able to input another command.

 

[-Mars-]

What if Falco keeps a lookout for the ftilt, and just keeps his distance? Sheik has nothing to completely intercept Falco's options. Needles can't punish silent lasers since Falco can just land into a shield, and he can also land while airdodging to avoid the needles if you try to frametrap him with good timing. If Falco plays it patient (like kismet2 did), the MU becomes way too hard for Sheik to call it "manageable"... And all it took for kismet2 to win was holding back on approaches until Sheik was obviously open and with high %s.

I mean I know Falco is a beast when it comes to running away...but I think you need to look at it from Sheik's perspective. Sheik's already fast and you combine that with a 4 frame ftilt. Now if you're telling me that the Sheik player isn't smart enough to PS lasers and get inside every now and again then I guess you're theory is correct......except that just isn't the case.

Kismet2 beat Stealth....who i'm fairly certain is not a "top" Sheik player and you have no idea whether he was approaching the matchup correctly so using this as an example is rather foolish and irrelevant.

In this matchup Falco can't expect to stay back and not have Sheik get inside ever. I mean I don't really NEED to punish Falco's options if I just crouch under his lasers lol.

Needles go through lasers; they have transcendent priority. They still punish silent laser use just as well as they punish normal laser use, and normal landing patterns. What were you getting at?

I could visualize Sheik having the ability to at least neutralize Falco's camping game with a combination of ducking, shielding, charging needles, and intelligent boost smash/dash attack usage.

^Exactly

Let's see... Falco jumps and lasers constantly. You manage to fire a needle at Falco. Falco can do a number of things now, depending on when you threw the needle:

1) If you threw the needle aiming to hit him before he landed, he can downB to reflect it, land with a shield, jump midair then fastfall a silent laser and continue the barrage, or laser you and have the needle knock him out of his afterlag so that he may shoot another instantaneous laser before landing.

2) if you threw the needle aiming to hit him while he lands, he can downB to reflect it, land while airdodging and moving to a direction so that the needle misses, or shoot the laser and have the needle knock him out of his afterlag so that he may shoot another instantaneous laser while landing.

3) If you threw the needle aiming to hit him as soon as he landed, he can downB to reflect it. land with a shield, jump midair then fastfall a silent laser and continue the barrage, shoot a silent laser then shield/downB it, or shoot a 3rd, grounded laser and allow the needle to knock him out of his afterlag so that he may get back to shooting his lasers.


To me, it seems like Falco has the upper hand here, and a buttload of options to boot. Patience will let the Falco player know what optimal option he can do against needles shot at him (transcendent priority or not), and a strong will to hold back his urges to approach recklessly will make it so that Sheik has nothing to punish. Getting close while crouching? Well, Falco can either downB or sideB away, as well as move backwards towards the ledge while lasering, then mix up lasers and sideBs whenever you corner him to ledges, and if he grabs the ledge then he just ledgejumps and lasers, then phantasms behind you if you get too close... Falco will be back to looking for safe ways to cause damage at Sheik before you have a chance to realize how your "hurtbox zoning" did nothing.

And yes, Sheik will eventually break through his camping. But the majority of the time, when Falco regains his ground, it'll be the same hell all over again for Sheik to bypass his defenses.

All 3 of your options are laughable because you fail to realize the fact that I can unleash a needle storm and simply go back into a crouch lmao. You play it similar to how Snake players will drop a nade, crouch, and then time it so they PS a laser and throw a cooked nade which forces Falco to react. If you play it right Sheik can either make this long range game a stalemate or the Falco player will just be content with taking 18% evry now and again lol.

It's so easy for Sheik to win the camp game in this matchup. Oh and god forbid she get a lead and just simply crouch xD.

Exactly what a Falco will do to you if you crouch+shield+charge needles. They'll just wait for you to do a predictable reaction and punish you for it. If you're shielding Falco's lasers, then he can either laser>grab you, or simply land without lasering and buffer a grab to grab your shield. Shiek can do stuff, but Falco is the defensive one here, so he's the one maintaining the edge while Sheik is trying to take it from him. Assuming that you, the Sheik, will have a flawless approach while Falco will fall for whatever you plan on doing is faulty theoretical discussion, and not practical due to the "human" factors coming into play when the match actually happens.

What if I don't do a predictable reaction???? xD. As long as you PS lasers(and after 2 years one would hope the majority of tournament players can), Sheik has the frame data on her moveset to punish nearly anything Falco attempts to do if she reads him correctly.

Actually I think Sheik can be the defensive character in this matchup xD.

Matchup is even. Probably one of the more evenish matchups in the game. Then you factor in all of the nasty stage Sheik can take Falco to and it makes it even worse.

 

[Kewkky]

I mean I know Falco is a beast when it comes to running away...but I think you need to look at it from Sheik's perspective.

I think you need to look at it from a NEUTRAL perspective, as in, give both players the same edge over the other, and not make one character better at reacting than the other. If this MU is truly even as you say, then Falco nor Sheik will have an edge when camping.

Kismet2 beat Stealth....who i'm fairly certain is not a "top" Sheik player and you have no idea whether he was approaching the matchup correctly so using this as an example is rather foolish and irrelevant.

To that, I say this:

Note, I include Shiek/Zelda as one person, and after having seen some Japanese players with Shiek (along with stealth3654's shiek against kismet at a recent tournament), I simply see the argument for putting Shiek quite high.

If you want a recent result I 3-0ed him in losers finals Falco vs. Shiek. Shiek is good but as long as I don't approach or don't blindly rush then the matchup isn't really hard.

[/quote]
Mars, welcome to SmashBoards, home of the people who like to read what they want, and that jump into conversations to try and emerge victorious and increase their e-peen size!

In this matchup Falco can't expect to stay back and not have Sheik get inside ever. I mean I don't really NEED to punish Falco's options if I just crouch under his lasers lol.

I keep re-stating over and over in my posts that Sheik will get inside eventualy. Let's look at my quotes...

And yes, Sheik will eventually break through his camping. But the majority of the time, when Falco regains his ground, it'll be the same hell all over again for Sheik to bypass his defenses.

Shiek can do stuff, but Falco is the defensive one here, so he's the one maintaining the edge while Sheik is trying to take it from him.

So, did you read what you wanted to read, or are you just pulling my leg?

^Exactly

Once again, welcome to the bandwagoners' Guild!

All 3 of your options are laughable because you fail to realize the fact that I can unleash a needle storm and simply go back into a crouch lmao. You play it similar to how Snake players will drop a nade, crouch, and then time it so they PS a laser and throw a cooked nade which forces Falco to react. If you play it right Sheik can either make this long range game a stalemate or the Falco player will just be content with taking 18% evry now and again lol.

#1, I feel insulted... #2, I just gave you a list of all the things Falco can do, and you called it laughable. Is Falco really that horrible of a character? I think the tourney results would beg to differ... AND you're assuming the Sheik player is higher leveled than the Falco player. Why don't you try all of your theoretical experience out in the field, for one? Don't know if you live in USA (don't know what UT is, I'm not from USA myself), but if you do, it shouldn't be hard looking for a higher-leveled Falco like kismet2, since he's the Falco in question.

It's so easy for Sheik to win the camp game in this matchup. Oh and god forbid she get a lead and just simply crouch xD.

If she has the lead, then I guess Falco will have to suffer quite a bit of damage before he retakes the lead. If Falco has the lead, I'm pretty sure Sheik will have more trouble regaining the lead than Falco. Remember that Falco's game might revolve around laser, but that doesn't mean that without the lasers he immediately loses his options.

What if I don't do a predictable reaction???? xD. As long as you PS lasers(and after 2 years one would hope the majority of tournament players can), Sheik has the frame data on her moveset to punish nearly anything Falco attempts to do if she reads him correctly.

Ok let's see what you'll be aiming to do then... Crouch lasers, charge needles, powershield, shoot needles, get closer to Falco, and ftilt. 2 of them are actually attacks, so that limits Falco's problems to 2 Sheik options. All he needs to do is decide: DownB/shield/jump out of the way of the needles when she is at long/mid range, or gain some distance/shieldgrab/downB when you approach trying to ftilt at short range. He can even limit it to two options if he so desires to make it easier to react to: sideB away if you get too close, and shield the needles if you're still not close enough.

Actually I think Sheik can be the defensive character in this matchup xD.

Theoretically, yes. Practically? Don't even think you can outcamp Falco.

Matchup is even. Probably one of the more evenish matchups in the game. Then you factor in all of the nasty stage Sheik can take Falco to and it makes it even worse.

I haven't said anything about the MU ratio, why are you bringing that up? I'm not even talking about theoretical situations, I'm visualizing PRACTICAL situations... Or are you assuming Falco can't constantly adapt to Sheik, and that Sheik's one-way approach (needles and walking) can't be eventually beaten by Falco's camping AND frame-advantaged approaches? Sheik would definitely call this MU even if the 'unpredictability' factor didn't play a huge role at higher levels of play when the top tiers were present in a match.

 

[rathy Aro]

Ftilt is 5 frames. =P

Kewkky, you're demonstrating that you don't know sheik well enough to argue about this match up.

Spoiler

Do I get my +3 e-peen now?

 

[-Mars-]

Yea like i'm not trying to increase my e-peen size or whatever lol it's just a lot of the things you say indicate that you have little knowledge about what Sheik can do. If you think my only options are to" Crouch, powershield, throw needles, and ftilt"......then you need to do a little more Sheik research.

Let me give you a scenario:

Match starts.

I full hop and charge with needle cancels.

Once I have a fully charged needle storm.....I crouch. If we're playing on a smaller stage like SV then once i'm in a crouch I have to be aware of a side-b. I can now inch my way forward in a relatively safe manner and when I feel comfortable I can react to whatever Falco is doing. Keep in mind all of this is taking place with no risk to me whatsoever.

I can continue to do that as long as I have a lead. Now if I don't have the lead then it becomes much harder for Sheik but lasers are still not as good as you're making them out to be.

 

[Kewkky]

Now if I don't have the lead then it becomes much harder for Sheik but lasers are still not as good as you're making them out to be.

Thank you, this is exactly what I've been trying to say since my first reply. It's harder for Sheik to regain a lead than it is for Falco to regain a lead. Sheik can hit Falco a lot, but Falco can cause damage back as well. If Falco is wary of Sheik's options, then there is no real reason why Falco should find himself taking the risk of an ftilt lock at close range and lose a lead. Needles don't make Sheik gain a lead later during the match, how would needles make Sheik gain back a stock if Falco has a stock advantage? Falco's lasers at least force Sheik into defensive maneuvers whenever he shoots them as well as gives him frame advantage (if the opponent shields regularly or is hit by the laser, Falco ACs and is able to do anything while the opponent still has frames of hitstun)... Needles need charging (if you want to do a charged one, that is) and have endlag (the uses for them on-stage is the same as any other projectile: countering camping with a slower rate of fire, interrupting attacks/recoveries, and pressuring non-campers to approach). Falco's laser can get powershielded, but why use it in an easily-powershieldable manner when Sheik's getting close?

I'm not going to argue that "I know how a top-level Shiek would play like", instead I will kindly ask to be given some videos of how the "closest-to-ideal Sheik" could play. Any videos against any characters will do, I don't mind spending some time watching vids if it means that I'm wrong.

 

[Matador]

I like Sheik. I think Sheik is lower than she should be. I definitely think she could rise next tier list.

However, people are starting to get out of hand. I've heard from different Sheiks that she can be even vs pretty much everyone in top/ high tier. Diddy, MK, Snake, Wario...she's good but geez. Lrn2objectify.

 

[-Mars-]

Those are all slight disadvantages.

 

[Matador]

Might wanna make that unanimous amongst the board then. I've heard different on multiple occasions.

 

[Tristan_win]

Might wanna make that unanimous amongst the board then. I've heard different on multiple occasions.

Never say die.

~ First post on smashboards in a month.

 

[Ark_Zer0]

Eh, Wolf is probably where he needs to be. I mean, one can escape chains by spamming the reflector, but it requires the attacker to mess up. Also, you'd have to know which characters can lock him and their range/speed.

 

[Clai]

I like Sheik. I think Sheik is lower than she should be. I definitely think she could rise next tier list.

However, people are starting to get out of hand. I've heard from different Sheiks that she can be even vs pretty much everyone in top/ high tier. Diddy, MK, Snake, Wario...she's good but geez. Lrn2objectify.

Sheik has a lock on Diddy Kong with a single banana. I can see her being even with the monkey. MK and Snake.... yeah I'm not willing to buy that.

 

[professor mgw]

Out of all the chars in the top tier I think sheik is good 2 fight Snake diddy & wario.

 

[Chuee]

Sheik isn't even with mk.

 

[DMG]

Shiek loses to MK
and Snake
Almost even with Diddy and Wario
Loses to Marth
Falco is debatable, I'd call it even possibly.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Sheik has a lock on Diddy Kong with a single banana. I can see her being even with the monkey. MK and Snake.... yeah I'm not willing to buy that.

So does Diddy on sheik.

 

[Zankoku]

HAHAHA, Sheik even with MK

That's wishful thinking.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik almost even with Diddy? Can't see how this is the case. Somebody explain?

 

[DMG]

Best dash to shield in game helps with bananas
Out speeds Diddy frame wise
Has almost a comparable OOS game
Can kill Diddy at ******** %'s given the right fresh Usmash
Can edge guard him way too well
She has needles so the strategy of camping Diddy back actually is viable
She can crawl to screw up his aerials

It's not that bad really. Shiek is scary with a banana in her hand, and still scary without one.

 

[rathy Aro]

Never say die.

~ First post on smashboards in a month.

You're back! Saviors made me think you died. T.T But you're okay! *hugs fellow sheik main* ^.^

Sheik has a lock on Diddy Kong with a single banana. I can see her being even with the monkey. MK and Snake.... yeah I'm not willing to buy that.

Single banana lock is stupid.

Sheik isn't even with mk.

She kills him out of grab mad early. Jab leads into grab. So at 80 percent a jab means death. lol. She's probably one of the few ppl that can punish MK consistently (she can punish anything). She has the speed to keep up with him both in the sense of attack speed and mobility. And chain is too good? (Now I feel like I'm theorycrafting....) Anyway its close to even 40:60 MK at worst.

Shiek loses to MK
and Snake
Almost even with Diddy and Wario
Loses to Marth
Falco is debatable, I'd call it even possibly.

I agree with Wario, but I thought it was only my opinion that Sheik does well against diddy.
Marth is definately even.
Falco's around even.

Sheik is just a solid character and thus has lots of even match ups just like Marth.

 

[DMG]

She does not go even with Marth lol. If by even you mean 55:45 his favor, then that would be a conservative rating.

 

[zeldspazz]

I thought Marth beat Sheik because Fair approaches **** her? I may be mistaken but I remember it being one matchup Sheik nor Zelda could handle well when I tried to dual main.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Yes.

Sheik really shouldn't be beating ANY top tiers on a regular basis anyway. I still vote to have Zelda/Sheik together in the tier list and not seperate because it's

Spoiler

stupid, forgive me.

 

[rathy Aro]

Dash attack, needles, grab, and gimping are too good.

Why shouldn't she be beating any top tiers again?

 

[Red Arremer]

Dash attack, needles, grab, and gimping are too good.

Why shouldn't she be beating any top tiers again?

Because her DownB sucks. Seriously, that's not so hard to understand.

Spoiler

[/lolzeldasuxbandwagon]

 

[Kewkky]

Dash attack, needles, grab, and gimping are too good.

Why shouldn't she be beating any top tiers again?

She can beat top tiers. She just has a nastier time than them in the MUs, that's all.

 

[rathy Aro]

By beat them I meant to do better in the match up. Of course any character can beat any character given the right situation.

 

[zeldspazz]

Because her DownB sucks. Seriously, that's not so hard to understand.

Spoiler

[/lolzeldasuxbandwagon]

As if we havent heard that 10million times

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Dash attack, needles, grab, and gimping are too good.

Why shouldn't she be beating any top tiers again?

It's all about knowing the matchup.

Do we have top players who use Sheik? I don't keep track in these type of things since I do not believe in Sheik as a separate character from Zelda. Enlighten me cause I do not even have competitive Sheik vs top tier matches (most modern) in mind. I'd say she has a chance against Falco and Diddy but both characters have more quantity and quality in terms of representation.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

By beat them I meant to do better in the match up. Of course any character can beat any character given the right situation.

Excuse double post...

Just wanted to stop by and say "Ganondorf vs ICs in TOP LEVEL PLAY" Sorry for being a jerk and all.

 

[Red Arremer]

Excuse double post...

Just wanted to stop by and say "Ganondorf vs ICs in TOP LEVEL PLAY" Sorry for being a jerk and all.

Edit Button is your friend, not your enemy.

Ganondorf can beat ICs in Top Level play, it's just very very very very very very VERY VERY unlikely.

 

[professor mgw]

Sheik should be like bottom B considering she can counter top tier chars.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Sheik doesn't counter any top tiers -.-.

She only does OK against most of them.

 

[rathy Aro]

It's all about knowing the matchup.

Do we have top players who use Sheik? I don't keep track in these type of things since I do not believe in Sheik as a separate character from Zelda. Enlighten me cause I do not even have competitive Sheik vs top tier matches (most modern) in mind. I'd say she has a chance against Falco and Diddy but both characters have more quantity and quality in terms of representation.

I feel like only Light and Ankoku can really comment from experience. Light is probably the only one that plays top tiers (aside from MK =/) at a "high" level. Falco isn't bad because she can tilt lock him to death (or near death?), crawl under his laser, and use needles. I feel diddy is close based on my own experience and ADHD vs Neo (keeping in mind Neo SD'ed and doesn't employ all "high" level sheik tactics).

Excuse double post...

Just wanted to stop by and say "Ganondorf vs ICs in TOP LEVEL PLAY" Sorry for being a jerk and all.

That's why I said in the right situation. That wouldn't be the right situation. XD

Sheik should be like bottom B considering she can counter top tier chars.

She doesn't counter anyone (but ganon and fox lol), but I feel she's consistent with most of her matchups being good at the bottom of the tier list and move in closer to even as she gets towards the top.

 

[Browny]

what proof exists that sheik goes close to even with high and top tiers

matchup numbers from an incredibly one-sided thread are not worth anything

 

[Ripple]

what proof exists that sheik goes close to even with high and top tiers

matchup numbers from an incredibly one-sided thread are not worth anything

Shiek loses to MK
and Snake
Almost even with Diddy and Wario
Loses to Marth
Falco is debatable, I'd call it even possibly.

THERE IS YOUR PROOF! (yes, DMG's word is proof)

 

[Kewkky]

Are you guys really saying "DMG's word is law", or are you just agreeing that your views are the same as his? Cuz I keep seeing the former around in posts lately.

 

[Ripple]

Are you guys really saying "DMG's word is law", or are you just agreeing that your views are the same as his? Cuz I keep seeing the former around in posts lately.

did DMG say you could talk?!