Omni Releases Controversial Video On Smash 4

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hey, maybe because...most of the Brawl community is actually now the Smash 4 community? While the Melee guys kinda stayed with their own thing for the most part? Hmmm.

Yeah this is more or less what happened, woth more PM and a dash of 64.

 

[Cahalan]

Looking at the video and after some thinking, here's my preferred rule-set for Smash 4

Mii's: Yes
If Palutena can be allowed, so can the mii's since they both have entirely different moves for customs.

Custom Moves: Yes
Allows players to diversify their characters play-style and keep the other person on their toes.

Custom Equipment: Maybe
Balanced enough to where every combination has it's downfalls somewhere.

Amiibo: Sure!
if fox can do it, so can anyone else as a separate entrant.

Stages: All Omegas and the TO's pick

Stock: 2/3 (Two if the event is running multiple games, Three if it's only Smash 4)

Time: 5:30 Min (Best of both worlds?)

Team sizes: Depends on the size of the team (smaller team number if one team has more people than the other present e.x: 5 on Team A, 4 on Team B so it's 4v4. But no more than a 4v4 in general terms if both teams have more than 4 people present.)

How to handle acquiring customs: Either grab a save with all customs or use "3rd party" methods to obtain them in the 3DS version.

 

[LimitCrown]

As much as Smash 4 is criticized, people in the Super Smash Bros. community are more likely to defend or dismiss any problems that Melee has. A least, that is what seems to be the case, in my opinion.

 

[Manta]

I don't want smash 4 to die as it is the only smash game that I think I'm actually good at competitively, but if it dies than it will be the smash community and its inability to accept anything that isn't melee. ( IF you like melee, please don't take this the wrong way. Melee is amazing)

IKR. Like someone above said, the Smash community needs to accept each game for what it is like the SF community does. Just because it isn't Melee 2.0 doesn't make it automatically bad, it isn't Brawl 2.0 either, it's Smash 4 1.0.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

There are AT's in smash 4 that nobody but a few people know about (me, my brother, and 2 others), that would make the advanced melee player STFU about the lack of them in smash 4. Don't worry, you'll see them at EVO.

 

[Creede]

Oh. I guess that you shouldn't try to perfect the metagame. Nope. Let's just keep the rules as they were Day 1 when we knew nothing about the game. No more changing your minds when you learn new things.

 

[Z25]

Hey, maybe because...most of the Brawl community is actually now the Smash 4 community? While the Melee guys kinda stayed with their own thing for the most part? Hmmm.

Yes but there are many more added to number as well as a new meta.

 

[Tino]

I guess people around here are not used to changes when it comes to the Smash community. What are y'all so afraid of anyways?

 

[Saikyoshi]

You mean in at least 50 years, maybe 5 years before the last smash 4 disk breaks, and well after both games have become entirely irrelevant? It really doesn't effect anything. He'll be just fine when the last melee disk breaks, odds are hell be dead before that happens. Hope that answers your nonsensical question?

I was going to leave this discussion because I realized that I was poisoning myself (again), but the point of that question was that scarcity is indeed a factor. Disks are $175 last time I checked, and a price barrier like that, well... I'll cite the Second Law of Thermodynamics here: "Any closed system will eventually reach entropy", and Melee is definitely very close to becoming a closed system.

Regardless of competitive value, scarcity will eventually be a threat to the Melee community. And Melee HD isn't happening, since it would have to be approved by Sakurai (who, though he is implying that retirement is on the horizon, he still owns a significant share of the data since he worked a lot on that title specifically). And he outright considers Melee to be a mistake.

Right now, I'm just saying consider that.

 

[Estwood]

Smash 4 at least has two years minimum before it dies, but it's true that the community needs to decide on an agreeable rule set before we move on.

 

[cacatod12]

Are we really about to discuss someone's opinions who states that Sm4 is campy?

The game isn't campy; some players *cough* *cough* Dabuz *cough* *cough* are incredibly campy.

 

[Manta]

The game isn't campy; some players *cough* *cough* Dabuz *cough* *cough* are incredibly campy.

*cough* *cough* Guy's DHD *cough* *cough*

 

[MLGF]

PM Players have issues with outside forces hurting their game.
Sm4sh Players have issues with their own scene/game hurting them.

...Let's just all play Melee then.

No, but really. You guys literally have EVERYTHING going for you guys (more then PM, and even more than Melee) and yet you still have the most drama and issues within your scene. It speaks a lot about both your community and your game.

 

[SuaveChaser]

The easy accessible online will keep people playing but yeah the hype will die off seeing the same strings over and over gets boring and the game is becoming alot more campy.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

There are no issues with sm4sh, either competitively or with respect to rulesets, people like Omni just need to go away and stop openly and publicly complaining, anytime they talk about a game potentially dying they're just being assholes with hidden agendas. Just don't listen and go play.

 

[wedl!!]

Melee players being Melee players yet again, I see.

When the last out-of-print disk breaks, and it will, then where will you be?

how is that even remotely related to anything

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Actually Dabuz with custom Rosalina was less campy than regular rosalina. Amazing Ampharos' Rosalina is also VERY campy, probably more than Dabuz.

 

[busken]

The thumbnail looks his Mii lol

 

[LimitCrown]

The easy accessible online will keep people playing but yeah the hype will die off seeing the same strings over and over gets boring and the game is becoming alot more campy.

The same problem can also be present in Melee.

 

[Sgt-Sol]

I like pie, this is not on topic, i like pie thoe, so if i like it i eat it, thats that, who agrees

 

[Cr@zy &nger]

I don't think Smash 4 is going to die but yeah the community is being dumb, in my opinion, the reason people say smash 4 is doomed is because most people play Melee or Project M, I'm not saying Melee or project M are bad, (in fact both of them are amazing) I just think people are playing those games more than smash 4.

 

[Grubert]

I was going to leave this discussion because I realized that I was poisoning myself (again), but the point of that question was that scarcity is indeed a factor. Disks are $175 last time I checked, and a price barrier like that, well... I'll cite the Second Law of Thermodynamics here: "Any closed system will eventually reach entropy", and Melee is definitely very close to becoming a closed system.

Regardless of competitive value, scarcity will eventually be a threat to the Melee community. And Melee HD isn't happening, since it would have to be approved by Sakurai (who, though he is implying that retirement is on the horizon, he still owns a significant share of the data since he worked a lot on that title specifically). And he outright considers Melee to be a mistake.

Right now, I'm just saying consider that.

#1 That is not even close to the second law of thermodynamics. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that entropy always increases? Describing something as "reaching entropy" is meaningless. All systems *have* entropy. Anyway, it has NOTHING to do with this discussion, or the fate of any of these games.

#2 Sakurai does NOT consider Melee a mistake. He has said it may have been the best game he made. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that he doesn't like Melee's high skill-gap between new and experienced players?

#3 A quick search of Amazon showed you can get a working Melee disc for ~65 dollars, not the 175 dollars you cite. Doesn't matter anyway, since we can emulate (which is COMPLETELY LEGAL - copying and distributing the game is not, but emulating from your own disc copy IS COMPLETELY FINE). People will probably end up doing it via illegal disc copies but Nintendo will never be able to stop them.

#4 Are you a troll or are you actually as stupid as you sound in all of your posts?

 

[Delzethin]

It's a complicated subject. There's a lot to touch on, and while I disagree with Omni, he makes some points, as do some of the other commenters.

We have a problem with a lack of veteran presence in the Smash 4 community. So many of the major figures have decided to stick with what they know rather than take a chance on something new, and many of those who have crossed over are...polarizing. We have no stability, no voice of reason at the top, and it shows with all the knee-jerk reactions and conclusions jumped to. It's really frustrating, feeling like the powers that be aren't even bothering to give your community a chance.

Worse yet, it gives newcomers no voice to rely on...and it leads to too many of them listening to whoever happens to be the loudest. They end up echoing the vocal minority: "Defense is inherently bad!" "Where are the true combos?" "Smash 4 needs more ATs or it isn't legitimate!" "No stage hazards whatsoever! No exceptions!" "Melee is what Smash games are supposed to be like!"

Our lack of leadership and lack of prominent and informed discussion has some of the lifeblood of our community parroting its most vitriolic members.

More importantly, though, there's something bigger going on here. The reason we've been getting tripped up on these things so often in the last few months is because despite our differences, despite how wildly our opinions might vary, I think we all have one thing in common.

We're afraid.

So much of what's happened since October--or even before that--has been driven by fear. The Melee community is afraid of being left behind, of the game they've put so much blood and sweat into being cast aside. The Smash 4 community is afraid that Melee's most zealous fans will snuff out their community before it can ever truly come into its own. Supporters of custom moves are afraid they'll never be given a fair chance, that the metagame might stagnate from the loss of variety, while their opponents are afraid of a metagame ruled by gimmicks and dominated by moves that force the meta to revolve around them and countering them. Proponents of smaller stage lists are afraid the more dynamic stages would be more of a factor to who wins a match than the players themselves, while the "stage liberals" are afraid that too small a stage list would skew the metagame too far toward the characters who excel on those stages. Even the 2-versus-3-stock debate could be boiled down to everyone being afraid that the other option would have dire consequences.

Omni's afraid, too.

Hell, I'm afraid of some of this stuff. Anyone who's known me around here long enough could tell you that.

It isn't an easy thing to overcome. I should know. I don't have all the answers, and I'm not arrogant enough to ever claim to.

But as for what I think--hope--our best plan is? Gather as much information as we can, and get it out there. Smash 4's metagame is still young, and the more people are informed, the more capable we'll be of making the decisions that shape it. The more easily newcomers are able to learn, the more easily they'll become informed as well...and the less likely they'll naively repeat what the vocal minorities are saying.

I don't know about everyone here...but the better I understand something, the less afraid I become.

 

[AuraShaman]

Dear lord, I first thought that face was Shokio! 0 0

But yeah, now that I've looked at it, I feel the only way we can save this is to get our act together. This game was to focus more on the competitive scene while still having enough of a learning curve for novices to easily get familiar with. I'd certainly hate a competitive/casual fused game with so much effort put into it just shrivel up and die because we overhyped it or couldn't make one compromise.




Also, 0:59? Little Mac OP? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Spoiler

I wish.

 

[☆Jisatsu☆]

Keywords/topics from the video:
-5 months old
-casual

Personally, I've always seen all smash games as casual-friendly. More so with Brawl and Sm4sh. The community may be divided on a handful of things, but as Omni said- just play the game. Upon the release of the Wii and DS, Nintendo has stated they want to go a different direction with their games. Mainly, they want to cater to the largest demographic of gamers as possible. This means making games more casual-friendly. Nintendo wants everyone to be able to pick up any game without any experience into a specific series and be capable of playing semi-competently with little effort.

That being said, just because a game is more easily accessed by newcomers doesn't mean it can't be played on a competitive level. This game is still a baby. Heck, we are supposed to be getting DLC characters (Mewtwo HYPE !!) and I can guarantee there will be controversy over every character they implement. It's way too early to make any definitive calls on rulesets, movesets, etc.

Some suggestions for alleviating the warring community:
-Tourneys featuring Sm4sh should be up front about their rules for gameplay as soon as possible to prevent any confusion and salt fests. This will allow players to practice and prepare for said tourneys with ample amount of time.
-Reporting any major flaws with certain characters that are game-breaking. This DOES NOT mean crying about a character being too OP (we're looking at you, enthusiasts and haters). Reports should be level headed and detailed with examples and sources of examples showing how something is broken.

In my opinion, Sm4sh features a lot of new content...more than any previous Smash. It could take well over a year before everyone can understand everything there is to know about the game. I don't think it will die simply because it has the largest player base we've seen thus far.

 

[Xermo]

Oh boy, more smash 4 on the front page.

 

[teluoborg]

He has valid points on the whining and no real consistent rule set.

What I don't agree on is some of his other points, game is dying when the opposite is happening.

The whining is just the consequence of the patches. Since people know things might change they have to voice their opinion on how things should be, no matter how unlikely it'll impact future patches.

And once again : the game is not lacking a consistent ruleset, it is offering multiple rulesets. Customs On/Off are both viable ruleset choices, so are 2 and 3 stocks etc etc. It's not like Items On/Off where one of the alternatives is clearly better from a competitive standpoint, we're actually asking questions that have no bad answers.

So yeah, what the community should do is stop wasting time in sterile discussions, stop making sensationalism like Omni did with this vid, let the TOs decide and just play the damn game.

 

[SHiFT_]

Because Nintendo will be perfectly happy to let pirated copies of one of their games be widely televised. They've sure been understanding in the past about scarcity, after all, haven't they?

Emulating a game previously purchased with a ROM or ISO file ripped from the disk is actually legal.

People who want to play the game will make it work. Smashers who have spent more than a decade playing Melee wouldn't quit if they find themselves searching for an official copy many years from now.

Smash 4 will likely die once the next Smash title is released anyway. Brawl is just about dead because Smash 4 is newer and much closer to the Brawl play style than it is to that of Melee, so players have naturally migrated to the newer game.

I feel that once the next Smash title is released many years from now with more improvements to Smash 4, just as Smash 4 made improvements to Brawl, people will hop onto the next hype train and Smash 4 will begin to decline. Brawl was essentially a series reboot... It abandoned nearly all of the values that had been built from 64 to Melee for an entirely new engine. Nothing wrong with that, but it deserves attention.

Or Smash 5 will serve as another series reboot. Who knows? Just play your new and shiny game and develop the meta. Melee players will not quit their game simply because a newer option is available... They know better after having experienced Brawl.

 

[☆Jisatsu☆]

And once again : the game is not lacking a consistent ruleset, it is offering multiple rulesets. Customs On/Off are both viable ruleset choices, so are 2 and 3 stocks etc etc. It's not like Items On/Off where one of the alternatives is clearly better from a competitive standpoint, we're actually asking questions that have no bad answers.

just play the damn game.

This. It's all about how you want to play as an individual.

 

[LimitCrown]

Emulating a game previously purchased with a ROM or ISO file ripped from the disk is actually legal.

People who want to play the game will make it work. Smashers who have spent more than a decade playing Melee wouldn't quit if they find themselves searching for an official copy many years from now.

Don't you still need a copy of the game? The main problem is that the distribution of ROM or ISO files is illegal.

 

[Genexican]

"Hopefully people will stay civil as the community sits down to tackle issues going forward in the entirety of our Smash community."

If only that was a possible outcome...

 

[SHiFT_]

Don't you still need a copy of the game? The main problem is that the distribution of ROM or ISO files is illegal.

Proof of purchase should be sufficient, and if the copy stops working, it is still the player's physical possession.

As for the issue regarding distribution, this would not affect tournament hosts who already own the game. However, the community would have much greater difficulty growing if finding a legal copy of Melee becomes that difficult for a newcomer.

I guess we'll cross that bridge when Sakurai offers Melee as an HD remake or virtual console title we come to it

 

[stancosmos]

I was going to leave this discussion because I realized that I was poisoning myself (again), but the point of that question was that scarcity is indeed a factor. Disks are $175 last time I checked, and a price barrier like that, well... I'll cite the Second Law of Thermodynamics here: "Any closed system will eventually reach entropy", and Melee is definitely very close to becoming a closed system.

Regardless of competitive value, scarcity will eventually be a threat to the Melee community. And Melee HD isn't happening, since it would have to be approved by Sakurai (who, though he is implying that retirement is on the horizon, he still owns a significant share of the data since he worked a lot on that title specifically). And he outright considers Melee to be a mistake.

Right now, I'm just saying consider that.

considering i could still go out and buy an intellivision if i want to and play some Snafu, I don't think melee is anywhere near extinct. I mean the competitive scene will die out eventually, but it's honestly peaking right now with more tournaments and bigger tournaments than ever before. I'm not trying to be biased here, I'm a smash 4 player i haven't played melee in years, but competitively melee is looking healthier than smash 4 right now. And if you're being literal and thinking people will run out of copies of the game, I don't think you understand how many copies were printed and how easy it still is for a dedicated player to get a copy, and if that was for some reason not an option he could still emulate it. It's in no danger of becoming extinct at all. Plus melee outlived brawl as far as fan support went, I can see it outliving smash 4 as well.

That being said smash 4 has only had one major tournament, We'll see how evo goes. I hope it goes well and brings some interesting matches for smash 4.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Now I don't want to go all anti-Melee, but one must admit, this whole thing about the community not being united is almost entirely because of the Melee Elitists.

The people who are going to like Smah 4 are the people who are open to change. The people who are open to change are the people who liked Brawl for what it was, and didn't compare it to Melee.

Besides for the people who are hooked on Melee and only Melee, nobody really sticks to one single Smash game.

Nobody only plays Brawl and thinks everything else is inferior. Same with Smash 64 and 4.

I'm not saying all people who think Melee is the best Smash game are the problem. It's fine to have an opinion on a game series, and have a favorite in a franchise, but the ones that refuse to play anything but Melee need to step up, and try to accept new things, for the sake of the Smash community.

 

[SHiFT_]

considering i could still go out and buy an intellivision if i want to and play some Snafu, I don't think melee is anywhere near extinct. I mean the competitive scene will die out eventually, but it's honestly peaking right now with more tournaments and bigger tournaments than ever before. I'm not trying to be biased here, I'm a smash 4 player i haven't played melee in years, but competitively melee is looking healthier than smash 4 right now. And if you're being literal and thinking people will run out of copies of the game, I don't think you understand how many copies were printed and how easy it still is for a dedicated player to get a copy, and if that was for some reason not an option he could still emulate it. It's in no danger of becoming extinct at all. Plus melee outlived brawl as far as fan support went, I can see it outliving smash 4 as well.

That being said smash 4 has only had one major tournament, We'll see how evo goes. I hope it goes well and brings some interesting matches for smash 4.

Agreed that more than seven-million copies is plenty for a dedicated player to mine into, yet attracting players who may not be willing to find and pay for the assets will become increasingly difficult as time progresses.

I do agree that finding a copy of Melee is certainly not an issue at the moment.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I know an apology won't mean anything, because 90% of you are probably blocking me.

But I started this, and I feel like throwing up for it.

 

[Streetwize]

I know an apology won't mean anything, because 90% of you are probably blocking me.

But I started this, and I feel like throwing up for it.

The damage has already been done. You can say you're sorry. Those who will forgive you will do so. If they don't, don't let it get to you. This is the Internet, and, to a sense, the real world as well.

 

[LimitCrown]

Proof of purchase should be sufficient, and if the copy stops working, it is still the player's physical possession.

As for the issue regarding distribution, this would not affect tournament hosts who already own the game. However, the community would have much greater difficulty growing if finding a legal copy of Melee becomes that difficult for a newcomer.

I guess we'll cross that bridge when Sakurai offers Melee as an HD remake or virtual console title we come to it

Well, it seems that you can only rip the ISO file from your own copy of the game, and that if you don't have the original copy of the game, it isn't legal to keep the ISO file.

 

[stancosmos]

The damage has already been done. You can say you're sorry. Those who will forgive you will do so. If they don't, don't let it get to you. This is the Internet, and, to a sense, the real world as well.

Technically he never said he was sorry. But yeah i'm on your side here, don't stoke a fire if you're afraid to get burnt. Can't antagonize people and expect a polite pat on the back for it.

 

[KneeIsLoveKneeIsLife]

Smash 4 won't die, but it's true that we as a community don't get along

PD: Smash Bros 4 is actually a good competitive game >.>

No it's not.