Omni Releases Controversial Video On Smash 4

[Baskerville]

1:08
LOL that face

 

[Saikyoshi]

[[As much as I know it won't help, I've blanked this post to try to stave off further embarrassment. I really am sorry.]]

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I didn't have to watch it. If you're saying "Smash 4 must die", that's supporting Melee.

...or Brawl, or PM, or 64, or any non-Smash fighting game...

 

[Praxis]

The video wasn't even about Melee in the slightest and you obviously didn't watch it. You clearly have a persecution complex.

I didn't have to watch it. If you're saying "Smash 4 must die", that's supporting Melee.

That's not what he said at all. He's saying that the player's attitudes and inability to come up with a common ruleset is what is going to kill the game.

Dude, Omni was a well-known Brawl player back in my day. This video literally has nothing to do with Melee.

You are just so anti-Melee that you can't even bring yourself to look at discussions and criticisms of the Smash 4 community without calling everyone- including concerned Smash 4 players- a filthy Melee player.

And that's sad.

 

[Saikyoshi]

[[As much as I know it won't help, I've blanked this post to try to stave off further embarrassment. I really am sorry.]]

 

[Ridel]

I agree the recovery is awful, but 40% on a move that can be spammed? I agree with you, just saying.

It doesn't kill at 40% I know that for a fact I use it on my Brawler and even at 40% the move didn't knock them into the outer blastzone from the edge of the stage and it can't be spammed it is very punishable upon landing or even in the air if your fast enough. You need to be really close to the blastzone for it to kill at 40% and it's still risky cause if the opponent isn't on their last stock or air dodge you are going to wind up dead or losing a game.

 

[Space Stranger]

@ Omni 's exact reaction to the incoming storm:

I don't mind his opinion really, I just came here for the comments.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Okay, so this is a common bit of confusion. No, I don't think Brawl is deeper just because of ATs. I mean the amount of thought that goes in to each interaction.


Okay, so lemme give you a bit more examples here of why I feel Brawl's got more depth to interaction. This is not meant to start a debate, I'm just clarifying.

There's a lot of general global changes from Brawl to Smash 4. Obviously, removal of ATs is a common theme, but there's more than that. With a few exceptions (Bowser), generally most characters across the board have worse autocancels (for example, Peach, Fox, Wario), and worse projectiles (Falco, Peach, Diddy, Fox, etc). While airdodges may have been too safe for combo game in Brawl- they actually provided a bit of an approach mechanism. You could SH and airdodge to the ground as a fakeout.

With the combination of nerfed autocancels and nerfed airdodges and nerfed projectiles, jumping is a lot less safe in Smash 4 than Brawl.

There's just a lot less going on in neutral. Snake could have multiple grenades out and remotely control the momentum of the first with the second. Diddy was glide tossing all over the place. Falco was trying to whittle down your approach option with SH double laser and predict how you get through it and meet it with a dash attack or usmash or dair. In Smash 4 though, you see how often people roll away? In Brawl, you could usually have a projectile out to cover the roll option, or position yourself with an autocancel so you can punish the roll. In Smash 4, rolls are a lot better because you're more limited in neutral.

There's just more happening that the player has to keep track of in a given moment in Brawl.

Also: weirdly, I think Smash 4 has the most shallow followup game (between Melee and Brawl, not counting Smash 64). You hit someone, and either have a guaranteed second hit, or a 50/50 guessing game. Smash 4 has a lot of 50/50 guessing games compared to Brawl. Brawl would have complex guessing games off of hit; you would could force an airdodge with an autocancelled aerial and punish the end, sometimes, or other times you could position yourself to punish whatever action they used to leave hitstun. In Smash 4, you either can hit them, or it's a 50/50 guessing game. In Melee, combo chases are really complex. In Brawl, there's no combos (this is very bad for game pacing), but very deep followups (they can break hitstun with aerials or airdodge, but base knockback is low so they're close, so if I can position myself to cover all of their aerial hitstun breakers I can punish). In Smash 4, there's combos (good for pacing, encourages approach) but followups are really simple guessing games.

(On a side note: Tripping is conceptually inconceivably stupid, but it's actually not a common thing in Brawl. The average player trips maybe twice per three stock game.)

Interaction-wise, IMO, Smash 4 is shallower than Brawl. However, you don't have to deal with the dumb stuff like extreme camping, infinites (there's at least five characters with dtilt wall infinites, grab release infinites on Ness/Lucas/Wario, Ice Climbers on everyone, Diddy single naner lock, Dedede against a wall against the entire cast, Dedede in place against five characters, ZSS dsmash on Fox, Pikachu dthrow on Fox, etc), tripping, godlike Metaknight, etc. So shallower, but better paced and less dumb.

Hence my analogy: Brawl is a wine that tastes terrible going down but has a great aftertaste, and Smash 4 is a mild wine. Which is better is pretty much personal preference and I know a lot of actually notable players that liked Brawl better.

This all pretty much tells me that both games have what the other needs, though I will admit that the lack of auto-cancels in Smash 4 really does piss me off. Remember when Ganon's Dair was a good move to use as a punish or even an approach? Good times.

People've talked about banning DK's custom up-B and Pika's custom skull bash as well and a number of notable players feel "not all customs should be allowed". However, it's a slippery slope once you start picking and choosing what should be legal and what shouldn't and it really needs to be all or nothing.

Okay, that's pretty stupid. Neither of those customs come across as OP, unless they KO at 50% or lower.

 

[Trieste SP]

Blame the chanters at APEX '15. I was neutral on it before, but the Melee fanbase booing ZeRo when he won was Melee signing its own death warrant.

Whether you like it or not, this is war.

It shouldn't be a war. We need to be better than them. Who cares what others say, we need to support all smash games.

 

[Praxis]

Blame the chanters at APEX '15. I was neutral on it before, but the Melee fanbase booing ZeRo when he won was Melee signing its own death warrant.

Whether you like it or not, this is war.

Look. I was in the Brawl scene during periods where some Melee players heckled us. I have been to tournaments where the Melee players booed the Brawl. I have seen the splits and I have written about how history has repeated itself. I remember the gratitude I had for Hungrybox being the only notable Melee player to come watch the Apex 2010 grand finals for Brawl.

I have also been very loud about telling Melee players that "If you do stuff like that, you'll breed Smash 4 players that hate Melee players, instead of potentially introducing them to the game you love later on."

It's wrong that people do that. And I'm sorry people have done that.

But please- don't respond to hate with more hate. Many of the Melee community leadership have shunned that treatment and behavior. It was wrong. I know friends from the Brawl community that have missed out on so much because they wouldn't play with the Melee scene because of old feelings from older Melee players who heckled them.

It's not healthy for you. It's not good for either scene. Be the better person - don't unreasonable attack that expresses as "filthy Melee players".

It doesn't have to be a war. Many scenes have them side by side peacefully. But if you act like this you'll just instigate more.

 

[Ridel]

I didn't have to watch it. If you're saying "Smash 4 must die", that's supporting Melee. Therefore, Omni is the enemy.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or you genuinely believe that is what Omni was talking about.

 

[HarajukuNinja]

Blame the chanters at APEX '15. I was neutral on it before, but the Melee fanbase booing ZeRo when he won was Melee signing its own death warrant.

Whether you like it or not, this is war.

THIS is what Omni meant by Sm4sh will die. How can we have a proper community if we take sides all the time? If you actually looked at the video, he clearly stated that he wants what's best for the smash community and that we should play the game if we enjoy it.

While the booing at ZeRo was utterly disrespectful, not all Melee fans are like this. The fact that you actually WANT to start a war with Sm4sh vs Melee makes you part of the problem.

 

[Saikyoshi]

[[As much as I know it won't help, I've blanked this post to try to stave off further embarrassment. I really am sorry.]]

 

[Darktega]

I have a solution guise, let's play with items! #Kappa

But seriously, I don't even bother trying with Smash 4 beacuse people are complaining too much. For Glory is fun and that's what I'll keep playing for now. Maybe go to a local or two, and from there I'll see.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

1:08
LOL that face

The same reaction I had as well.

 

[DestinNotDustin]

I didn't have to watch it. If you're saying "Smash 4 must die", that's supporting Melee. Therefore, Omni is the enemy.

Even if you didn't watch the video, the title says "How Smash 4 will Die", not "Smash 4 must Die."

Stop posting.

 

[Ichel]

Smash 4 is turning into a pm.
In pm most of the special moves can kill.
Really i don't want that happen, the customs must be off

 

[Trieste SP]

Removed.

Friend, it is not right to have this mentality. If you find Melee uninteresting then so be it. However, there are plenty of people who enjoy watching and playing Melee compared to Project M. Melee isn't obsolete because another game have similar mechanics to it just like 64 and Brawl.

 

[ZLF Aurora]

Jesus Christ, that Kotaku level clickbait title.

 

[Silvia]

I like how Omni thinks.

 

[Omar_25]

No. Melee must die. It was justifiable not too long ago, when we had literally no other option (Brawl and 64 don't have an active scene anymore), but metagame has staled to the point of sheer tedious monotony years ago (I eagerly wanted to watch EVO '14 because I was just getting into Competitive Smash. It literally bored me to sleep. I nearly missed the finals because of it.) and it's outlived its purpose with P:M around.
Yeah, I acknowledge that 4 has its shortcomings. But now even every reason to possibly prefer Melee is obsolete because a better game expanding on the benefits it had has shown up.




I'm sorry, but I honestly believe that Melee's continued existence is toxic to our community as a whole.
The harm it continues to cause far outweighs its benefits. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

melee? dying? that's not going to happen anytime soon. Also, smash 64 does have a scene.
ugh. I could say more but I won't.

 

[Praxis]

This all pretty much tells me that both games have what the other needs, though I will admit that the lack of auto-cancels in Smash 4 really does piss me off. Remember when Ganon's Dair was a good move to use as a punish or even an approach? Good times.

Yeah, I can agree with that. Smash 4 just...took away one good thing for every good thing it added. It's overall better in many ways and not as good in many other ways. Honestly, I think that if you'd taken Brawl and given it Smash 4's ledge invincibility mechanic, the extra characters, and maybe a few more tweaks you'd have a pretty good game.

(Smash 4's ledge is a great example of one-good-thing-one-bad-thing. Ledge trumping is bad. It's actually made offstage game shallower. You used to deal with a character like Villager by grabbing the ledge to keep him from magnetically snapping, then release and jumping up to attack as he crosses over you. However, ledge invincibility determined by air time is good, because with Brawl's ledge invincibility you could just camp offstage.)

Okay, that's pretty stupid. Neither of those customs come across as OP, unless they KO at 50% or lower.

Not sure if you've been following recent developments, but DK's custom up-B is incredibly safe and makes it very hard to approach DK (helping his camp game tremendously) and Pika's Heavy Skull Bash KO's at below 50% off an airdodge read. ESAM thinks it makes Pika the best character in the game.

(Not agreeing with the "ban" people though)

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Honestly I can go on and on about how veterans can't learn to accept a new Smash because it's not Melee 2 or the fact that this game is competitively viable in a very different way than Melee, but I'm not going to. There's no need to explain the ignorance that tries to get in the way of this game. Die-hards will continue to talk this game down because they're scared that the game may rise up to Melee (which shouldn't be the case but whatever).

So I will just say this: There's no reason to leave this game behind because of the ignorance... Leave non-believers behind and let new people lead the charge and develop this game.

 

[Ridel]

No. Melee must die. It was justifiable not too long ago, when we had literally no other option (Brawl and 64 don't have an active scene anymore), but metagame has staled to the point of sheer tedious monotony years ago (I eagerly wanted to watch EVO '14 because I was just getting into Competitive Smash. It literally bored me to sleep. I nearly missed the finals because of it.) and it's outlived its purpose with P:M around.
Yeah, I acknowledge that 4 has its shortcomings. But now even every reason to possibly prefer Melee is obsolete because a better game expanding on the benefits it had has shown up.

What would you know about a staling meta if well I don't know you just joined the scene last year.

 

[Praxis]

No. Melee must die. It was justifiable not too long ago, when we had literally no other option (Brawl and 64 don't have an active scene anymore), but metagame has staled to the point of sheer tedious monotony years ago (I eagerly wanted to watch EVO '14 because I was just getting into Competitive Smash. It literally bored me to sleep. I nearly missed the finals because of it.) and it's outlived its purpose with P:M around.
Yeah, I acknowledge that 4 has its shortcomings. But now even every reason to possibly prefer Melee is obsolete because a better game expanding on the benefits it had has shown up.




I'm sorry, but I honestly believe that Melee's continued existence is toxic to our community as a whole.
The harm it continues to cause far outweighs its benefits. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

Oookay, so you're just nuts.

Melee's metagame has been increasingly developing every year, and PM isn't going to kill Melee.

But now even every reason to possibly prefer Melee is obsolete because a better game expanding on the benefits it had has shown up.

You mean PM, a game which cannot be legally run by large tournament companies? PM can never be run by Evo/MLG. So it is not a replacement.

I'm sorry, but Melee just isn't going anywhere. If you actively try to kill Melee all you'll do is hurt both communities with more negativity. I think Melee is going to continue to be bigger than Smash 4 years from now.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

No it won't.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Telling folks to play Smash 4 so they may enhance the meta is like telling religious people to read their holy books to build more faith - it sounds good in theory, but it usually just ends up driving everyone to ungodliness (aka Melee's Fox).

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree with your video, Omni, and as far as I can tell, the scene is doing fine and I'll label a few reasons why.

1.
As with Smash history, it usually takes time for a rule-set to come together. We aren't divided as a community for disagreeing, we are merely debating as a community because this game has new things added to it like Custom Moves which is honestly such a new twist on Smash Bros. that even I wasn't a fan of it at first until I played with it myself and realized the possibilities.

I feel as if this will take some time because of the depth here involved with customs, and also the metagame takes time to involve. Rome wasn't built in a day.

2.
People play this game a lot, this game has a healthy tournament scene and this game has tons of popular streams. It also has 3DS to help keep it alive since 3DS has sold more units than Wii U. There is no reason to be alarmed with things the way they are now since everything is going smoothly.

3.
I think perhaps it's easier to notice the arguing now as social media, as we get older, is more noticeable to us as technology has evolved and thus tend to get more involved so it seems like the world is ending sometimes, so to speak, but it really isn't. It's just another day another debate, this happens with a lot of things on the internet, not just gaming.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Btw, people being stuck to melee is because 1. it's the only thing they were ever good at, and 2. We like to believe there are gods among us, and we have our smash gods. The moment they pick up another smash however, and they turn into scrubs and they just can't let go of the only thing that gives them meaning.

 

[Lionman]

Just enjoy the game you like god dammit

 

[Omni]

I disagree with your video, Omni, and as far as I can tell, the scene is doing fine and I'll label a few reasons why.

1.
As with Smash history, it usually takes time for a rule-set to come together. We aren't divided as a community for disagreeing, we are merely debating as a community because this game has new things added to it like Custom Moves which is honestly such a new twist on Smash Bros. that even I wasn't a fan of it at first until I played with it myself and realized the possibilities.

I feel as if this will take some time because of the depth here involved with customs, and also the metagame takes time to involve. Rome wasn't built in a day.

2.
People play this game a lot, this game has a healthy tournament scene and this game has tons of popular streams. It also has 3DS to help keep it alive since 3DS has sold more units than Wii U. There is no reason to be alarmed with things the way they are now since everything is going smoothly.

3.
I think perhaps it's easier to notice the arguing now as social media, as we get older, is more noticeable to us as technology has evolved and thus tend to get more involved so it seems like the world is ending sometimes, so to speak, but it really isn't. It's just another day another debate, this happens with a lot of things on the internet, not just gaming.

You are Godsend. This is the kind of responses that I live for.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Oookay, so you're just nuts.

Melee's metagame has been increasingly developing every year, and PM isn't going to kill Melee.



You mean PM, a game which cannot be legally run by large tournament companies? PM can never be run by Evo/MLG. So it is not a replacement.

I'm sorry, but Melee just isn't going anywhere. If you actively try to kill Melee all you'll do is hurt both communities with more negativity. I think Melee is going to continue to be bigger than Smash 4 years from now.

Yes, I am nuts.

I certainly feel nuts since I don't at all enjoy what's apparently the nectar of the gods. And as you can imagine, I'm kind of insecure about it. After all, if I have "bad taste", then what else am I doing wrong?

As for PM's legal status, I feel that copyright law has been due for a global overhaul for more than ninety years because it does not account for the effort put into or the quality of a derivative work (Did you know that Nosferatu, often considered one of the greatest horror films of all time, had all copies of it ordered destroyed by the Stoker estate? It only exists today because it was passed around underground until Dracula became public domain in April 1962.), but that's an entirely different can of worms.

 

[Phan7om]

@ Omni @ Praxis
Ive literally agreed with everything both of you said, its nice to have people who share the same thought process about this.

There are few reasonable people out there, its either usually "Melee must die", "Smash 4 must die".

 

[ZomBiehn]

Do you like Sm4sh? Then play smash! What else is there? Melee fans will always like melee who gives a rats nut what they say about Sm4sh, smash as a whole is the best gaming g series ever (my opinion of course)everyone of them is a solid game (yes brawl had the most issues lol) just play the game people (or in most cases with this community children)

 

[Ridel]

Yes, I am nuts.

I certainly feel nuts since I don't at all enjoy what's apparently the nectar of the gods.

You may not enjoy it, but a lot of other people do and do you think that it's fair that your favorite game to play got killed cause some brat didn't like it. No, I don't think you would.

 

[DestinNotDustin]

Yes, I am nuts.

I certainly feel nuts since I don't at all enjoy what's apparently the nectar of the gods. And as you can imagine, I'm kind of insecure about it. After all, if I have "bad taste", then what else am I doing wrong?

As for PM's legal status, I feel that copyright law has been due for a global overhaul for more than ninety years because it does not account for the effort put into or the quality of a derivative work (Did you know that Nosferatu, often considered one of the greatest horror films of all time, had all copies of it ordered destroyed by the Stoker estate? It only exists today because it was passed around underground until Dracula became public domain in April 1962.), but that's an entirely different can of worms.

You're so funny, I forgot to laugh.

Blocked.

 

[Grubert]

Btw, people being stuck to melee is because 1. it's the only thing they were ever good at, and 2. We like to believe there are gods among us, and we have our smash gods. The moment they pick up another smash however, and they turn into scrubs and they just can't let go of the only thing that gives them meaning.

That is why Leffen and M2K win Sm4sh tournaments, right? Leffen won a tournament without ever playing the game before :/ Armada got second at some Sm4sh tourney (losing to Leffen, as I recall). He also had never played the game...

 

[---]

Is still early IMO.

Would wait until after EVO, as the only major coming together of the community I would consider thus far was held less than two months after release and was restricted, more than usual, both internally and externally in it's restrictions. Barely had enough systems with things unlocked. lol

The Custom Sets Project has given me plenty of hope for the community being able to come together, at least for now.


Just got to keep playing the game and see what happens, which I should remind isn't even finished in it's development.

 

[Duzzzyy]

Melee players being Melee players yet again, I see.

When the last out-of-print disk breaks, and it will, then where will you be?

Melee player complainers being melee player complainers yet again, I see. ****, he's voicing his opinions and wants to start a discussion, that's all.

 

[We Are GX]

Melee players being Melee players yet again, I see.

When the last out-of-print disk breaks, and it will, then where will you be?

did you not watch the damn video? Where did you get melee from?