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Omni Releases Controversial Video On Smash 4

LiteralGrill

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Many people know @ Omni Omni for some of the vlogs he has released covering topics in smash Smash including Diddy Is Innocent, Overcoming Tournament Jitters, 3 Ways To Improve Your Smash Game, and others. His most recent vlog has brought up a lot of controversy and discussion throughout the community as it is titled Why Smash 4 Will Die. In the video, Omni discusses his thoughts on some of the things most detrimental to Smash 4 right now. Give it a watch!


The thoughts in this video bring up a lot for discussion. Hopefully people will stay civil as the community sits down to tackle issues going forward in the entirety of our Smash community.

@ LiteralGrill LiteralGrill is always up to discuss anything related to Smash. Follow him on Twitter and start a discussion!
 

THK

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"Play the game."

That's all there is to it.

Also yes, WHEN'S SPLATOON (I know when it comes out)
 

Jasku

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Smash 4 won't die, but it's true that we as a community don't get along :(

PD: Smash Bros 4 is actually a good competitive game >.>
 
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Omni

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LMFAO @ that thumbnail.

Pretty sure this is going to be me when I return later to seeing everyone use basic logic to refute my points.

 

LIQUID12A

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SmashCapps said:
Hopefully people will stay civil as the community sits down to tackle issues going forward in the entirety of our Smash community.
Hoping for the community to stay civil after a video like this is rather impossible.

Watch as anti-Smash 4 comments come along en masse.
 
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chainmaillekid

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Of course we're divided over everything.

The game is only 5 months old.


I think it's a little backwards in expecting the opposite trend.

I also think its a little backwards to say it isn't healthy or normal.
 
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Pazzo.

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Interesting video.

I do agree that we need unity in the Meta, but the problem does not come from the game itself, but rather, inconsistant elitest manchildren.

If we can learn anything from this, it's that we need to treat Smash 4 for what it is. Not Melee, not Brawl, but Smash 4.

Now go and practice with customs on.

Edit: Last thing, if Omni had any doubt whether this would hurt Smash 4, he should not have released it. Very bad move from someone I respect.
 
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Trieste SP

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People just have different opinions. But we need to understand each other better. Not for us but for Smash 4.

I've been having bad vibes ever since customs were allowed in tourneys. :(
 
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Yikarur

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Omni is absolutely right.
This is the reason I absolutely deny the Standard Custom Project.
It will split the community apart.
We will never have a fair base if this continious.

Even though Omni overdramatizes a bit, the message in his video is absolutely clear and I support this view.

but

Smash 4 is a good competitive game and it's not campy. I've rarely seen a campy game except between specific match-ups.
 

Claire Diviner

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Brawl had a really healthy competitive run for quite a few years, and seeing as Smash 4 is overall a better game than Brawl, I can see Smash 4 lasting about as long, if not longer.

For those who are throwing custom moves as a negative into an argument, if the Dissidia community can have a competitive base with their custom sets, including equipment, there's no reason to believe Smash 4 can't thrive on custom moves alone, barring equipment altogether.
 
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Praxis

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First: Don't comment if you didn't watch the video. The title is clickbait and makes it sound like he's hating on Smash 4.

He's right though in what he says. A big part of it is that there's just not a lot of veterans in the Smash 4 community. There's so many new players and so few veterans that it's hard for the new players to really get a feel for competitive mentalities (which is vital for real growth).

In the past, the growth rate was slow enough that players would be introduced in to a seasoned community and "scrub" mentalities would be dealt with pretty quickly. But with how fast Smash has grown, and with the low veteran-to-new-player ratio in Smash 4 specifically, the majority are new. And with this comes a lot of inexperienced/bad opinions that find traction because there's no established community to shoot them down, and even good ideas that split off in different directions because there's no community leadership.

And a lot of the new players are entering with League-like mentalities. Frequently-updated games inherently breed whiney attitudes because complaining actually can accomplish something while working hard to develop things can get you nerfed when you make your character better.

Honestly, I think the best thing any new Smash 4 player can do is read David Sirlin's book on competitive gaming, "Playing To Win". If this was required reading I think the community would work together 10x better.
 
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BWG_Zeta

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So of I know omni it's that the title will be super controversial and not so much misleading but more or less just an attention grabber. Who knows, this might be different...,
 

Praxis

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Brawl had a really healthy competitive run for quite a few years, and seeing as Smash 4 is overall a better game than Brawl, I can see Smash 4 lasting about as long, if not longer.
I'm not actually sold that Smash 4 is a better game than Brawl. Better paced definitely, less stupid stuff definitely, but with shallower interactions overall. What's better, a bitter wine with a good aftertaste? Or a mild wine with a mild aftertaste? This actually becomes a preference thing pretty quickly. I think Brawl's deeper than Smash 4, but you have to put up with a bunch of dumb stuff in the process.

Another big difference is that a lot of Melee players tried for a while to pick up Brawl at the beginning and many continued playing it because Melee was effectively dead for two years. The crossover rate between Melee and Smash 4 is much, much lower than Melee and Brawl was because...Melee as a scene actually exists this time around. So I wouldn't judge it too hard on this history.


This isn't a bash-Smash-4 post, I spent years in the competitive Brawl scene. I just wouldn't assume one will be like the other.

I'm really worried for the potential split customs will cause the scene. It's crazy that people are discussing banning individual moves.
 

Piford

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The reason this video was controversial is the click-baity title and questionable execution in some parts.

There's also some points which don't make sense or seem to be in there specifically to evoke a poor reaction. Like when he says Smash 4 isn't competitive because it's defensive, which really means nothing and isn't true. I guess you could say defensive is less likely to be spectator friendly, but that's not always true. Saying that wasn't really to help push discussion about the game.

Also early meta is when your supposed to be experimenting. If we don't experiment, we might miss the chance to make the meta something better than whatever we arbitrarily decided without experimenting.
 

Zoltan720

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The Tornado kick mii players do kills at 40%.... I think customs should be integrated into smash to increase its longevity/meta, but there needs to be bans... there is just no way around it.
 

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I'm not actually sold that Smash 4 is a better game than Brawl. Better paced definitely, less stupid stuff definitely, but with shallower interactions overall. What's better, a bitter wine with a good aftertaste? Or a mild wine with a mild aftertaste? This actually becomes a preference thing pretty quickly. I think Brawl's deeper than Smash 4, but you have to put up with a bunch of dumb stuff in the process.
If by "deeper", you mean having more ATs and the like, then sure, I can buy that, but Smash 4 is still a bit young, and any ATs that exist have yet to be discovered. Of course, there's a risk Nintendo can simply patch out said ATs, making things harder for Smash 4's deep gameplay, so to that end, yeah, I can buy Brawl being deeper at the current moment.
Another big difference is that a lot of Melee players tried for a while to pick up Brawl at the beginning and many continued playing it because Melee was effectively dead for two years. The crossover rate between Melee and Smash 4 is much, much lower than Melee and Brawl was because...Melee as a scene actually exists this time around. So I wouldn't judge it too hard on this history.
That's because Smash 4's gameplay is very similar to Brawl's. If anything, it's basically Brawl, but with different ledge mechanics, combo possibilities, and no tripping. Obviously, Melee players who tried Brawl and went back to Melee aren't going to pick up Smash 4 when they know it's similar to Brawl, and one shouldn't blame them. Then again, I don't really speak for the Melee community, since this is just a mere guess.
I'm really worried for the potential split customs will cause the scene. It's crazy that people are discussing banning individual moves.
If I recall correctly, isn't the whole "one-inch punch" from Mii Brawler an OP move, and is the only OP custom move? If so, I can understand banning it. Otherwise, all other moves ought to be fair game, no?
 

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Interesting video.

I do agree that we need unity in the Meta, but the problem does not come from the game itself, but rather, inconsistant elitest manchildren.

If we can learn anything from this, it's that we need to treat Smash 4 for what it is. Not Melee, not Brawl, but Smash 4.

Now go and practice with customs on.

Edit: Last thing, if Omni had any doubt whether this would hurt Smash 4, he should not have released it. Very bad move from someone I respect.
The problem also comes from people calling others "elitest manchildren."
Don't make the divide any bigger, brah.
 

Nintenpro

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I don't see the point of this video ...
"Just play the game" But how ? 2 or 3 stocks ? Custom on or off ?!?
It's normal that the community debates about the ruleset, the game is new and there are a lot of possibilities. Quite the opposite, debates show that players really like the game and they want the best for the futur of their game.
 

Ridel

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The Tornado kick mii players do kills at 40%.... I think customs should be integrated into smash to increase its longevity/meta, but there needs to be bans... there is just no way around it.
Tornado Kick is actually a lot more reasonable then Piston Punch in terms of actual risk vs reward. Tornado Kick is powerful but it absolutely sucks as a vertical recovery move, so the Brawler player has to focus on getting to the ledge from a horizontal position which makes his recovery very linear. Piston Punch plus Faint Jump gives the Brawler a good vertical and horizontal recovery. Piston Punch's power to kill off the top is a lot less comitable then Helicopter Kicks to kill off the side and OOS.

I think I'm rambling on about something off topic so I'll stop here. :p
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Here's my opinion about it: Smash 4 will eventually die if we keep hesitating and complaining all the time.

When we knew about Brawl Meta Knight, we simply dealt with it because there was no way to actually change that. Now, with the patch system, why should we adapt? All we need to do is hang with the people complaining about the same thing and hoping Sakurai will listen and answer us (and also give yet another nerf to Greninja :troll:).......

The community truly became a shadow of what it was before Smash 4, which is sad because this game has the potential of having a bigger competitive scene than Brawl with its faster gameplay style, but so far, it has done nothing but create flame wars. However, it's not the game that's poisoning our community, it's the players.

My solution to solve this problem? Instead of complaining about everything, we should just accept the things we don't like in Smash 4 as if the patch system didn't exist.
 
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Omni

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On a serious note, what I think is no where near absolute. I could be overthinking it. I could be completely wrong. I have had several top players message me thanking me for releasing the video and sharing the thoughts they want to express but can't because eSports. And some of them disagree. I'm concerned and I want the absolute best for every Smash community. So I voiced my concerns and frustrations regardless of how unpopular or unfiltered it may be because I'm not eSports and I want you guys to hear how I actually feel. It may not

The ultimate goal and purpose of the video is to generate discussion. Am I wrong? Tell me why I'm wrong. Tell me why our future is secured. I'm not one to ignore logic or reason. Reddit completely blasted me with downvotes but also with strong arguments that make me question my own point of view. And I'm okay with that.

I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room or hold my tongue. And I won't apologize. This is who I am. Feel free to disagree with me; I welcome it. But I hope we can still be friends.
 
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M@v

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Right now I'm pro customs, 2 stock, 6 minutes, but I honestly enjoy the game in all the formats ive seen so far. My big thing is, as long as people are running tournaments with all these different approaches, its fine for now. Experimentation is good because you don't know until you try. Complaining about it all day? Yeah, that's when it gets dumb. And thats the main problem. The constant whining and bashing of certain approaches to the game. As Omni mentioned in the video, the fact smash 4 seems to work with these several different types of rulesets speaks to the depth of the game. If you don't like that style of smash 4, don't enter those tourneys. Darwinism should win out in the long run with the most popular ruleset. The only thing that could derail that is if large events run certain rulesets, as smaller tourneys would be inclined to gear their rulesets towards the large tourneys...even if the ruleset isn't that popular.


And real talk, when IS Splatoon coming out?
 
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Ragna22

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As long as the online community is still present I'm still playing. I'll just leave it at that.
 

Omni

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I'm not actually sold that Smash 4 is a better game than Brawl. Better paced definitely, less stupid stuff definitely, but with shallower interactions overall. What's better, a bitter wine with a good aftertaste? Or a mild wine with a mild aftertaste? This actually becomes a preference thing pretty quickly. I think Brawl's deeper than Smash 4, but you have to put up with a bunch of dumb stuff in the process.

Another big difference is that a lot of Melee players tried for a while to pick up Brawl at the beginning and many continued playing it because Melee was effectively dead for two years. The crossover rate between Melee and Smash 4 is much, much lower than Melee and Brawl was because...Melee as a scene actually exists this time around. So I wouldn't judge it too hard on this history.


This isn't a bash-Smash-4 post, I spent years in the competitive Brawl scene. I just wouldn't assume one will be like the other.

I'm really worried for the potential split customs will cause the scene. It's crazy that people are discussing banning individual moves.
I 100% agree with you, Praxis. And this never happens.
 

DaRkJaWs

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Stupid. That word describes this video. BTW omni the community doesn't let the "meta" develop singing kumbaya, it happens through actions, that is, through playing the game. That happens just by engaging in the game. Also, there are advanced techniques people haven't discovered yet, which is what you imply by wanting the meta to develop, but you also seem to have already come to a conclusion about the game's style, that part I really didn't understand. Again, stupid.
 

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[[As much as I know it won't help, I've blanked this post to try to stave off further embarrassment. I really am sorry.]]
 
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ansossy

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Ban customs. Smashville, Battlefield, Final Destination, Town and City, Omegas only. No character bans. Keep it 2-3 stock, the amount doesn't really matter that significantly and overall guarantee that there is nothing to allow controversial stuff here. A more strict unity ruleset is the only way to go in this day and age and it looks like the only hope for uniting.
 

Omni

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Omni just doesn't want to be liked, does he?
Whether you like me or not is entirely up to you. If giving my unpopular opinion on the state of the Smash 4 community makes you dislike me welll... you saw the video. You know what you can do, senpai.
 

Praxis

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If by "deeper", you mean having more ATs and the like, then sure, I can buy that, but Smash 4 is still a bit young, and any ATs that exist have yet to be discovered. Of course, there's a risk Nintendo can simply patch out said ATs, making things harder for Smash 4's deep gameplay, so to that end, yeah, I can buy Brawl being deeper at the current moment.


Okay, so this is a common bit of confusion. No, I don't think Brawl is deeper just because of ATs. I mean the amount of thought that goes in to each interaction.

That's because Smash 4's gameplay is very similar to Brawl's. If anything, it's basically Brawl, but with different ledge mechanics, combo possibilities, and no tripping. Obviously, Melee players who tried Brawl and went back to Melee aren't going to pick up Smash 4 when they know it's similar to Brawl, and one shouldn't blame them. Then again, I don't really speak for the Melee community, since this is just a mere guess.

Okay, so lemme give you a bit more examples here of why I feel Brawl's got more depth to interaction. This is not meant to start a debate, I'm just clarifying.

There's a lot of general global changes from Brawl to Smash 4. Obviously, removal of ATs is a common theme, but there's more than that. With a few exceptions (Bowser), generally most characters across the board have worse autocancels (for example, Peach, Fox, Wario), and worse projectiles (Falco, Peach, Diddy, Fox, etc). While airdodges may have been too safe for combo game in Brawl- they actually provided a bit of an approach mechanism. You could SH and airdodge to the ground as a fakeout.

With the combination of nerfed autocancels and nerfed airdodges and nerfed projectiles, jumping is a lot less safe in Smash 4 than Brawl.

There's just a lot less going on in neutral. Snake could have multiple grenades out and remotely control the momentum of the first with the second. Diddy was glide tossing all over the place. Falco was trying to whittle down your approach option with SH double laser and predict how you get through it and meet it with a dash attack or usmash or dair. In Smash 4 though, you see how often people roll away? In Brawl, you could usually have a projectile out to cover the roll option, or position yourself with an autocancel so you can punish the roll. In Smash 4, rolls are a lot better because you're more limited in neutral.

There's just more happening that the player has to keep track of in a given moment in Brawl.

Also: weirdly, I think Smash 4 has the most shallow followup game (between Melee and Brawl, not counting Smash 64). You hit someone, and either have a guaranteed second hit, or a 50/50 guessing game. Smash 4 has a lot of 50/50 guessing games compared to Brawl. Brawl would have complex guessing games off of hit; you would could force an airdodge with an autocancelled aerial and punish the end, sometimes, or other times you could position yourself to punish whatever action they used to leave hitstun. In Smash 4, you either can hit them, or it's a 50/50 guessing game. In Melee, combo chases are really complex. In Brawl, there's no combos (this is very bad for game pacing), but very deep followups (they can break hitstun with aerials or airdodge, but base knockback is low so they're close, so if I can position myself to cover all of their aerial hitstun breakers I can punish). In Smash 4, there's combos (good for pacing, encourages approach) but followups are really simple guessing games.

(On a side note: Tripping is conceptually inconceivably stupid, but it's actually not a common thing in Brawl. The average player trips maybe twice per three stock game.)

Interaction-wise, IMO, Smash 4 is shallower than Brawl. However, you don't have to deal with the dumb stuff like extreme camping, infinites (there's at least five characters with dtilt wall infinites, grab release infinites on Ness/Lucas/Wario, Ice Climbers on everyone, Diddy single naner lock, Dedede against a wall against the entire cast, Dedede in place against five characters, ZSS dsmash on Fox, Pikachu dthrow on Fox, etc), tripping, godlike Metaknight, etc. So shallower, but better paced and less dumb.

Hence my analogy: Brawl is a wine that tastes terrible going down but has a great aftertaste, and Smash 4 is a mild wine. Which is better is pretty much personal preference and I know a lot of actually notable players that liked Brawl better.

If I recall correctly, isn't the whole "one-inch punch" from Mii Brawler an OP move, and is the only OP custom move? If so, I can understand banning it. Otherwise, all other moves ought to be fair game, no?
People've talked about banning DK's custom up-B and Pika's custom skull bash as well and a number of notable players feel "not all customs should be allowed". However, it's a slippery slope once you start picking and choosing what should be legal and what shouldn't and it really needs to be all or nothing.
 

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Makai Wars

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This video is so silly tho

It really IS click bait, you can't hear one guy go "Smash 4 should have one stock" and act as if we have an entire faction of one stock devotees. This video reiterates that the game is 5 months (2 of which spent on the 3DS mind you) and make such sweeping generalizations about its players and meta then end the video with "Oh but Smash 4 is campy tho" like he watched one set of Dabuz's lame RosaLuma and started typing up the script right after. If these issues persisted a year in the meta we'd have some good points but that isn't the case.

This video blames the players being wishy washy because they rely on patches/nerfs when it's the inverse, a patch can totally change how a character is played, people aren't being wishy washy as much as they're being wary because they could end up like Greninja mains and lose cool techniques in a snap. I mean, remember vectoring?

This video is full of holes and rash statements that can only hurt the community honestly.

Tl;DR - Play the game, ignore people like this.
 

Zoltan720

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Tornado Kick is actually a lot more reasonable then Piston Punch in terms of actual risk vs reward. Tornado Kick is powerful but it absolutely sucks as a vertical recovery move, so the Brawler player has to focus on getting to the ledge from a horizontal position which makes his recovery very linear. Piston Punch plus Faint Jump gives the Brawler a good vertical and horizontal recovery. Piston Punch's power to kill off the top is a lot less comitable then Helicopter Kicks to kill off the side and OOS.

I think I'm rambling on about something off topic so I'll stop here. :p
I agree the recovery is awful, but 40% on a move that can be spammed? I agree with you, just saying.
 

Praxis

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Melee players being Melee players yet again, I see.

When the last out-of-print disk breaks, and it will, then where will you be?
The video wasn't even about Melee in the slightest and you obviously didn't watch it. You clearly have a persecution complex.
 
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