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Omni Releases Controversial Video On Smash 4

Oblivion129

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We have so many opinions about how to play the game BECAUSE it is pretty new, so we've been trying to find what the "optimal" way of playing the game is.
You're right about the "just play it" part, though. I'm sure the people with different opinions about stocks or customs are still playing it, and I don't think we should be worrying about how long the game will last.
 

Paradoxium

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It's just funny seeing all these new players blaming melee for their community's problems, when in fact the only melee players who are causing these problems are vocal new comers. Really the only one's starting up these stupid "Melee vs (Insert smash game here)" arguments are new players.

Why don't you guys learn what ALL the smash games are about before you **** on them and their respective communities, you idiots are the ones who make the community seem like a bunch of whiny teenagers...

Oh yea that's right, we are made up of whiny teenagers, my b.
 

Da Loc

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I don't think the items on or off for melee arguments killed that game. If anything it added more salt for the east/west coast rivalry.

I come from a competitive board gaming community and there are always multiple metas for games. In fact, for something as large as Evo, I would run it as 2 stock customs off in pools and then go full 81 moveset 3 stock matches in bracket. The best players would win still but it would be more inviting to all the casual players.
 

DestinNotDustin

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Didn't bother watching the video. Just came in to say that anyone that butthurt over Smash4's success doesn't deserve to be associated with Invader ZIM.
Should have watched the video because now I know you are talking out of your butt. Omni is not upset about Smash 4's success. TLDR, he talks about the community uniting under one rule set and accepting Smash 4's game play for what it is.

Excellent job ignoring the past 7 pages of discussion.
 

KLUTZNCUTZ

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Well i can say one thing this post got people talking. Just play the game guys really. I Like customs and so long as they don't make a character unbeatable then i think we should try them.
Omni in response to your video specifically I doubt smash 4 will "die" seeing as it has over a 1000 entrants for evo and a player who can play offensively and win with style (Zero). I agree we need a unified ruleset. I think if we get more Zero's with different characters this game could be dope and hype.
 

SSGuy

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Brawl had a great meta and for the most part was the center of the Smash Community. In fact, it dominated attendance in tournaments.

It was the division within the banning Meta Knight issue and the slander Melee veterans had against Brawl with the Smash Documentary the hurt it in the long run. I still feel like everything after EVO 2013 was an unseen dagger to the back.

We need to get it together and come to a consensus or just simply #PlayIt

The potential is there and we have only scratched the surface. We can't give up because something seems hard or too good. We will persevere. It just take a bit of growing up and acceptance within the Smash 4 Community.
 
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B!squick

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Of course Smash 4 will die. Nintendo accidentally made Melee. I promise you if they could, they would George Lucas the **** out of Melee. Hell, they're already doing that now since they bungled up Bowser's poor SIdeB. Like I said way back, I'm just waiting for someone to make a PM for Smash 4. PM happened because Brawl sucked and people liked Melee. Now we have Smash 4 and it sucks and people still like Melee.

Also, I like how you want people to play the game... yet chastise people for playing the game. Dude, we're not going to be able to settle on stocks, time, customs, and etcetera without experimentation. And 5 months is hardly enough time to sift through customs, a patch, and match length. If anything is in desperate need of being addressed it's the stages. Or should I say stage. It's always Smashville. The only time there's ever the slightest bit of variety is the rare occasion where someone counter picks their favored Omega. That's it.

And while Smash 4 has probably the worst selection of stages this side of the 64 version, I would love a rule where neither player can pick the stage that was just played. I mean really, if you're just going to go back to the same stage over and over, why even have multiple games? Just double the stocks and time and have the winner decided in one go, **** it.
 

erasmorpheous

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I love smash 4 casually because I can play against my non-competitive friends without as much of a skill gap and we all can have a ton of fun with it. I do not like competing in it because of the reasons he outlined and I personally (don't hate me) don't enjoy watching streams of it either because it's too slow for my taste (personal opinion). That's kind of been my mindset the whole time. I'm a Melee/PM player competitively and just figured I'd leave this game to the kids who actually want to compete in it.

I love the game and am kind of glad to not be part of the divide because of my competitive apathy for it, but I hope everyone can come together to keep the competitive aspect of it healthy.
 

ThatAintFalcon

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He said his goal was to generate discussion...looking at this thread, he did a damn good job accomplishing just that. I agreed with some of the things he said, like that the sm4sh community is very indecisive, but I also think that's to be expected of the community for such a young game with so many new players. All I can say about this is that we're all Johns deep inside, and it's up to us to rise above that so we can truly enjoy the game.
 

Sleek Media

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Should have watched the video because now I know you are talking out of your butt. Omni is not upset about Smash 4's success. TLDR, he talks about the community uniting under one rule set and accepting Smash 4's game play for what it is.

Excellent job ignoring the past 7 pages of discussion.
Thanks for the TLDR. He still doesn't deserve ZIM.

Smash4 is a big game. Much bigger than Melee, Brawl, MVC, SSFIVU, or any other fighter you care to name. It isn't designed to be played just one way. It's designed to be played many ways, with each having its own appeal. This is an asset, not a liability.

Unless you are still stuck in the early 2000's and think there is only one way to enjoy Smash Bros competitively.
 

Fatmanonice

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Super unpopular opinion time: I think part of the problem right now is that the leading players for SSB4 have carried over from Brawl and Project M. When Brawl first came out, the most prominent players were the Top Melee players. Because of this, there were a ton of complaints because those players were so used to Melee and didn't like the changes in the new game. Gradually, more and more of them got burned out and went back to Melee or flat out retired. Because of this, some people said that Brawl was going to be dead by Fall 2008. What happened though is that new top players started to emerge, who got their start in Melee or were common participants in online tournaments. It wasn't until a good chunk of the big name Melee players moved on that the ball started to get rolling.

This isn't meant to crap on players like Mew2king but it is evident that, like Ken back in the day, people hang off their every word and opinion and tend to agree because of their results in past games. They are the ones that are currently dictating the direction of this game. Of course, the game is still young so new "champions" really haven't gotten the chance to emerge yet so their new views and opinions aren't the ones at the forefront. SBB4 is a world where people still worship the old gods, so to speak, despite the fact that many of these gods are becoming disinterested and want to go back to the games that made them big names to begin with.

This is why Evo will be a big deal for the SSB4 community this year. Like Zero at the E3 Invitational, this gives "new" players the chance to get results that will earn them respect and, at the same time, add weight to their opinions and, in turn, these could acting as new guiding Master Hands for the future of the community. Of course, some prominent players from Melee, Brawl, and Project M will still stick around but they won't predominately be the ones shaping the opinions of the community as newcomers who are dedicated to SSB4 rise through the ranks.
 

MegaMango

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I think you're being far too defeatist about the game. By all means, I think Smash 4 feels a lot more on the defensive side, but that's only when melee becomes the natural comparison. Melee, WITH all of that 14 year old tech.
That kind of Melee has become almost synonymous with competitive smash for the last decade or so (I don't hate melee btw, but reliance on it's popularity is seriously screwing over smash 4).

Customs are a fantastic idea, and I am willing to let them play out until every Smasher is familiar with every combination through competitive play - there is literally no downside to seeing what it can do, and there are unbelievable downsides to ignoring them completely and playing the game with the prevalent mind-set that it can only be interesting if it's like melee.

This mind-set isn't explicitly intentional, but it's very visible.

Looking at the earlier matches, you can see so many players hopping on the ledge as if to edgehog, and spending the next few seconds awkwardly wondering what they are doing.

Most grab and kill combos for a lot of characters have not been developed because they don't feel reminiscent of Melee's combos. This is why Meta Knight, while significantly powerful in the competitive Brawl scene, is not hated by many players, as his play style and combos feel very, very nice to use, and are more similar to melee than perhaps any other character on the Brawl roster. Conversely, Diddy Kong has become the most quickly loathed character in the series for not only having an effective combo system that requires not much practice, but because it does not feel in any way similar to the incredibly technical follow-ups benefitted by Melees physics. It's the most blatant true combo in the game, and that's enough to make someone write a novella on why Diddy should be banned for 27 years.

This is primarily why Falco has been left in the dust by most players, even when it's pretty obvious to see that his move set was created through combining Falco's brawl moves with Wolf's moves. Thus, playing Falco like Brawl Wolf will grant more success than relying on a rather flaccid dair and a blaster obviously created for stalling airborne foes instead of damage racking and approaching.

This game is so very, very different from any game thus far in the series, and I'm not saying this solely for the gravitas, but because it features more customisation options than any other Smash title.

I don't blame you for stating your opinion, but I blame Leffen. Thanks for opening this discussion, the diverse opinions on the game need to be seen at the surface.
I want to hug you right now. I agree 100%.

Seriously though, let's just let the meta evolve. We should have this discussion again in 5 years.
 
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ThatAintFalcon

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Thanks for the TLDR. He still doesn't deserve ZIM.

Smash4 is a big game. Much bigger than Melee, Brawl, MVC, SSFIVU, or any other fighter you care to name. It isn't designed to be played just one way. It's designed to be played many ways, with each having its own appeal. This is an asset, not a liability.

Unless you are still stuck in the early 2000's and think there is only one way to enjoy Smash Bros competitively.
He wasn't saying that at all...he only wanted to tell you was that it was wrong for you to condemn omni's opinions without hearing them first. You were basically being a judge that decides a case before even having a trial. You can probably understand why your opinion regarding a video you hadn't yet watched lacked validity in the eyes of any observer.
 

Sleek Media

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He wasn't saying that at all...he only wanted to tell you was that it was wrong for you to condemn omni's opinions without hearing them first. You were basically being a judge that decides a case before even having a trial. You can probably understand why your opinion regarding a video you hadn't yet watched lacked validity in the eyes of any observer.
Where did I condemn his opinion? I just said I wasn't interested in it. LRN2READ.
 

A10theHero

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It's interesting to see the unintended consequence of trying to ban Meta Knight back in Brawl. It somehow made banning seem like a more viable option than it really is. I've heard too many players asking to ban customs, Diddy, etc. here in Smash 4 when it lacks anything really broken or banworthy. I feel like a very small minority would have even mentioned banning if the removal of Meta Knight from most tournaments never happened. That is because before Brawl, bans were restricted to only stages and items. Once we initiated a conversation about banning a character, we expanded the powers of the community to regulate the metagame. This likely caused people to assume that banning was a more beneficial and useful practice than it really is.
Now, mind you, I'm not blaming the people who argued that Meta Knight was too OP in Brawl (I was one of them). His presence truly was unhealthy. But I feel that these same people need to emphasize now the fact that nothing in this game (based on what we currently know) merits a ban. There's nothing game-breaking or Brawl Meta Knight-like. We have to let everyone know that banning is not a get-out-of-jail free card. It's for only very rare instances where the metagame is seriously harmed by the presence of a certain character. For Smash 4's "OP" stuff, we just need to play the game and find their weaknesses. They're not unbeatable or insurmountable or anything like that at all.
I also think that the issues with stock/time and Mii fighters will be resolved over time as we experiment and the meta develops. Customs should be introduced now before we have a fully-developed meta because we want them to be an integral (and defining) aspect of Smash 4's meta once it matures.
 
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MookieRah

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Omni, yo, I'm not sure how your 4 things would actually help anything. Saying "Just play the game." doesn't make things better or easier for TO's trying to come up with a ruleset. These are all questions that have to be worked out, and will probably take some time and several tournaments before people settle on something under one, mostly unified group.

I'm not sure how much people bickering on the forums regarding these rules are translating to being problematic for people coming into the scene either. Hell, back in 2004 there were still plenty of people arguing on the rules of Melee still, but as a newcomer I just focussed on threads and forums that helped me improve as a player. That's also something to think about, in 2004 melee's common tournament rules weren't even pinned down. 3 years after release and people were still working things out. Sm4sh seems to have more things to argue/debate about, so it could take a while with this game too.

All in all, I don't think it's as bad for the community as you think it is, definitely not to the point that it's going to cause the game to die. If people jump off the bandwagon due to a bit of politics on this forum then I doubt they would have stuck around for long anyways.

But what am I saying, I haven't even played Sm4sh yet.
 

Myougi

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I completely agree with Omni. The Smash 4 side of the Smash community really needs to come together and agree on things. It's not going to happen unless we all take charge and really rule things out.

I don't want to call shots, but I for one have talked to others tried to negotiate a rule set to avoid later arguments - early on in the game's life cycle - which was quickly shot down. I'll admit creating rulesets during the 3DS days wasn't the best idea, but the 3DS was a way for us to test things out before the full release. It was a trial period that we didn't really make use of.

What needs to happen is we need to make use of the tools we have now. We need to look though Customs and see how viable they are. I for one think they might be viable with 3DSes to transfer pre-made tourney legal custom builds. That's just an idea though, and it's something we need to try and see how things work. If it doesn't work we can rule it out, but we need to give things like this a chance.

People need to not get in the way of people wanting to try new things. We need to fix Smash 4 before the game dies quickly so all options and ideas should be considered. There's no need to be a bum and put up a fence. If we want to heal Smash 4 and make it the competitive game we want it to be, we're going to need to put some rules down and turn the game inside out.

We were able to make Brawl competitive with a lot of work. Smash 4 shouldn't take as much work - especially without ledge grab limits and the like. All I'm trying to say in recap is don't shoot down ideas. Try new things and see what works, then agree on something. The Smash 4 community will not evolve from those who put it down.

 
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ThatAintFalcon

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Regardless, I understand your reasoning and agree with you on the opinion that there are multiple ways to play the game, all of which are equally fun to different groups of people. We'll just have to see which ruleset is more prominent in competitive play.
 
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ThatAintFalcon

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It just seemed really unreasonable for you to judge the content of the video based on its title, that's all. Anyway, happy smashing amd sorry for getting salty over this.
 
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Z1GMA

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The Smash Community is becoming more and more like the CoD Community, I guess.

Blame this - blame that.
I'm the best player in existence - I only lost because he used 'that' weapon, perk, equipment, etc.

I got killed!? How? Oh, a Flack Jacked Noob.
What kille me!? Oh, what a noob - using ghost.
What the hell, I shot you first!! Oh, the FAMAS - what a try-hard.
Are you kidding me!? ****ing Drop-shot Noob!

That thing needs to get nerfed - it's the only reason I keep losing!
 
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ThatAintFalcon

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The Smash Community is becoming more and more like the CoD Community, I guess.

Blame this - blame that.
I'm the best player in existence - I only lost because he used 'that' weapon, perk, equipment, etc.

I got killed!? How? Oh, a Flack Jacked Noob.
What kille me!? Oh, what a noob - using ghost.
What the hell, I shot you first!! Oh, the FAMAS - what a try-hard.
Are you kidding me!? ****ing Drop-shot Noob!

That thing needs to get nerfed - it's the only reason I keep losing!
Lol the johns are real. New players who think they're starting to get good are always going to be upset when they lose. I used to get really mad about Little Mac, Sonic, Duck Hunt and Samus until I figured out how to deal with them, and I hope everyone else will also learn to adapt rather than complain.
 

LiamMail

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guess what, everyone here will die in 60-90 years
 
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qpMONKEYMIKEqp

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finally a smash 4 player comes out and sees that it is a campy game that is more fun to watch and play at a casual level. i love smash 4 for what it is and play it enough. Everyone just needs to stop the arguing and just play the game and just see where it goes. It is true that melee probably started out boring as well and i hope thats the case with smash 4. i hope it grows but only time will tell. No one knows if we have reached the peak of the game yet and i doubt we have.

Final words are if you like it play it and if not do something else thats it. Its not the communities fault if they dont play a game they dont like... Ill still be playing smash 4 even though i dont think the competitive aspect of it is good.
 

A Gray Person

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The thought of the game becoming dead still scares me. I can say that yeah Smash 4 can be a campy game but with how the word is commonly used stating something wrong, people get upset.

Probably the main problem here is that people keep going back to meta's and analyze them, namely Melee. This game is not Melee. It's not Brawl either. A lot of these new players are probably the types that would argue which one is better and a lot of them don't seem to know about reading being a thing.

Results. That's the thing I feel Smash 4 needs. This bickering on banning and stocks should stop for a long while and just have them be tried in the game. From what little of the game has been played I feel it's already proven Diddy isn't broken, any custom should be allowed and if two stocks and five minutes is the most accessible rule set due to FG, give those rules a try on non-FD stages with different match ups before thinking of changing them.

I agree with this video a hell lot. And who knows? If everyone in the Smash 4 community gets their head out of the trash then we may eventually see the game become less campy with much more creativity in everyone's play style. And I have to agree with some of you with how things should've been set in stone around 3DS.
 

StarForce

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Smash won't die, but I'm with Omni. The game is too new. Actually 6 months since Smash 4 per se came in October. But the truth is the community is taking sides like a divide and conquer. This is the real problem. I have to say that I was one always attacking Mac for being too op, but then they all resorted to "oh Rosalina is too OP" then the 1.1.4 update slammed her and now "lets find another op character oh I know lets nominate Diddy!" Please what's with this trend? We dethrone a king and then we let another tyrant take the place to do the same allowing another to come in? Make up the minds. Just play the game and after a while decide on a solid outcome but don't change things midway.

There also (ok I will get flame for this) *Raises flame shield* People comparing Smash 4 with melee and some with brawl I mean yeah, cool games people but please "Move on!" let the old games rest in piece. stop comparing games every freaking second. I can predict some headclumps saying "oh melee is better than Smash 6 for Nintendo NX and 4DS." Gosh people just play the game and stop comparing. Sure it's a great game, tourney, in the heart of many but let it go already. This is why the Project M exist. *Raises a million flame shields* Project M might be cool to add characters make your custom characters play and all but the purpose of it was to make Brawl into Melee 1.2. Okay if you like melee go play Melee simple as that. Things change and you can't stay in the shadows. Things change and you need to move on or you will be left in the dust. Play Smash 4 as Smash 4 it's simple!

There's then the custom moves. So they change some aspects of the game which the normal moves do but hey lets ban them or a few. Okay we can't have half ok and half banned. Make the mind already. They are there to be played with but if you stick to what you think it's normal and try to shun those away then you won't be able to develop a strategy against it. You just can't ban what you think is too much. At one point well ban everything that way and we will be playing Mario vs Mario normal moves on Omega Battlefield, why because we banned all characters stages and moves beyond that one. seriously we need to all come to a decision and play the game like that. It's rich in modes and characters and let the people play it like that. As for competitive. make up the minds. I'm not sure if i'm making any sense but I just got some stuff out of my system. I still have more. But I agree with Omni. Indecision is what will kill Smash if we don't watch it.
 

smashbro29

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Some guy made a new video.

Gee thanks, so all I have to do is make a really long post in video form and it will get front page?
 

Auroura

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I'm not really concerned that the game is going to die. But I do agree that all that's really required is to just...play the game. I'm pretty new in Sm4sh so I don't think my opinion has a whole lot of weight yet, but I enjoy the game regardless of whatever rules is used. I don't really understand all the fuss over a rules, because whether it's 2-stock, 3-stock, 5 minute, 6 minute customs or not. I enjoy going to every event and improving at the game. I have a lot of plans to travel and such and no set of rules is going to kill my enjoyment for my game. I believe that's what Omni is getting at my saying just play the game. In my opinion the biggest problem is everyone talking about a problem and not just playing the smash game they enjoy. I think people are more interested in blaming melee, character imbalance, rules, etc than actually just trying the game out.

In my personal opinion as far as rules go I don't care about the stocks or time limit. I know people want to avoid timeouts and stuff like that, and I'm technically not a fan of them either. But it has never affected my enjoyment of the game. As far as custom moves go I think it's too soon to say they should be allowed all the time, but I'm not opposed to trying them out. I actually enjoy playing with them on as I've been to tournaments with customs on. However, all that matters to me is playing, enjoying, and being the best at the game. So regardless of whatever ruleset becomes the meta. I'll be playing so long as I have the funds to travel to events and work doesn't get in the way.

Tl;dr While we're all here discussing this, we can be having fun playing the game. The game will develop over time. You got plenty of time to argue over rules later. Go play.
 

Seal

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Didn't bother watching the video. Just came in to say that anyone that butthurt over Smash4's success doesn't deserve to be associated with Invader ZIM.
Oh so you're the kind of person who likes having a strong opinion on something that they are completely ignorant about. I see.


Smash4 is a big game. Much bigger than Melee, Brawl, MVC, SSFIVU, or any other fighter you care to name. It isn't designed to be played just one way. It's designed to be played many ways, with each having its own appeal.

Bigger than melee? LOL. Let's take a look at Apex 2015 entrants. How about a quote from SSBWiki:

"Apex 2015 hosted a variety of fighting games, including singles and doubles events for Super Smash Bros., Melee, Brawl, and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. The tournament was the largest Melee tournament of all time, with 1,037 entrants and the largest in-person Smash 4 tournament of all time, with 837 entrants."

Also I'd LOVE to hear about the multiple ways to play.
 
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Manta

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Oh so you're the kind of person who likes having a strong opinion on something that they are completely ignorant about. I see.





Bigger than melee? LOL. Let's take a look at Apex 2015 entrants. How about a quote from SSBWiki:

"Apex 2015 hosted a variety of fighting games, including singles and doubles events for Super Smash Bros., Melee, Brawl, and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. The tournament was the largest Melee tournament of all time, with 1,037 entrants and the largest in-person Smash 4 tournament of all time, with 837 entrants."

Also I'd LOVE to hear about the multiple ways to play.
you obviously didn't undertand what he meant when he said bigger, there's more characters, custom moves, good online play, more stages etc.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Oh so you're the kind of person who likes having a strong opinion on something that they are completely ignorant about. I see.





Bigger than melee? LOL. Let's take a look at Apex 2015 entrants. How about a quote from SSBWiki:

"Apex 2015 hosted a variety of fighting games, including singles and doubles events for Super Smash Bros., Melee, Brawl, and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. The tournament was the largest Melee tournament of all time, with 1,037 entrants and the largest in-person Smash 4 tournament of all time, with 837 entrants."

Also I'd LOVE to hear about the multiple ways to play.
I agree in numbers melee is bigger.

Still, I heard a lot of the entrants in Melee that were no shows did it to purposely make the game seem like it had more entrants than Smash 4, at least that is what people were saying on reddit at the time when people were bragging about it around the new venue.

But it also missed about what he meant by, "bigger"
 
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