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Official SWF Tier List v8

Dark.Pch

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^As a Zelda and Ganon player I will say Zelda has tools and Ganon doesn't. Sure when Ganon gets going he murders but it's incredibly difficult to do anything with his big hurtbox, lack of options and terrible attack speed. Slip up once at 50-100%ish vs Zelda and she frame 5 Dtilt locks for a considerable amount of damage. Ganon's fastest ground attacks are grab at frame 7 and jab frame 8 :urg:
Zelda's Dtilt tilt does not lead to alot of damage unless the opponent does not know how to smash DI. You Get like 2-3 reps and then the opponent can evade or block.
 

Rizen

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dude red halberd played so terribly that set I wouldn't rely on it as evidence for anything

I felt like I was reading his rolls 5 years before he committed to them XD
Of course, Zelda won :p
Ed's a really good player. It's not the only example of Dtilt if you look for it. It did happen.

As a low tier player (who's claiming Jiggz is much higher) you get how people say something will never happen because a character sucks and in theory should never pull anything off but it does happen. Dtilt's not too hard to make work. This is why I'm against theory crafting; we should go with what happens. Zelda sucks of course.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Oh I definitely don't think dtilt will never link into itself or set up pressure or anything, I just don't think that vid is the best evidence for it being decent :p

I dunno, my low tier has real tools (they just suck), so it's kinda different to a character like Zelda where you can say "that shouldn't work" - Puff has things that shouldn't work as well, every character does, but she doesn't rely on gimmicks as hard as zelda haha
 

Rizen

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(This is why the thread should be shut down: everyone thinks characters they don't understand don't have tools and suck at everything. At least we don't have a troll popping in using 'Australia sucks' as a MU argument presently :facepalm:. inb4 next MU comes up with this pattern)

That's my Zelda argument, take it or leave it.
My current opinion on the tier list:

Why do you think Jiggz is above characters in I and J tier? Currently Jiggz is 3rd worst in the West and the worst in Japan http://www.smashboards.com/threads/american-japanese-tier-list-combined.327084/
 

Dark.Pch

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Fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znfANQcMiFE&feature=player_detailpage&t=253
61 to 95%

I want to hear more about Peach so I can make theoretical comments and downplay a character I don't use
If I SDI the dtilt reps, I can block her Dsmash. I do it all the time. I get hit with Dsmash if the opponent does it after the first to second hit. I play her as well when bored and had people do this to me. And since everyone likes to Dtilt to Dsmash with her, I keep this in mind. So when I Dtilt I go for a grab since I know I will usually force a block. I rather grab then dsmash unless my opponent is mashing buttons. Zelda sucks at approaching. Im not gonna send my opponent flying if they won't die when I can keep them near me as much as I can for damage.

And as for your last comment, I'm here to educate and correct false information. Im not here to deal with people who wanna sound funny and show off on the internet. This thread had more then enough of that BS while I was gone.
 

Rizen

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If I SDI the dtilt reps, I can block her Dsmash. I do it all the time. I get hit with Dsmash if the opponent does it after the first to second hit. I play her as well when bored and had people do this to me. And since everyone likes to Dtilt to Dsmash with her, I keep this in mind. So when I Dtilt I go for a grab since I know I will usually force a block. I rather grab then dsmash unless my opponent is mashing buttons. Zelda sucks at approaching. Im not gonna send my opponent flying if they won't die when I can keep them near me as much as I can for damage.

And as for your last comment, I'm here to educate and correct false information. Im not here to deal with people who wanna sound funny and show off on the internet. This thread had more then enough of that BS while I was gone.
This thread is BS. Zelda's Dtilt did 34% with an easy read, follow-up and got Snake offstage in that video. That's pretty good damage and a position advantage. Which was my point.

If you want to talk about Peach I'm all ears.
 

Dark.Pch

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A read. An educated guess. This is different from something that is guaranteed. When fighting smart opponents, you can't rely on so call reads. Cause it is hard to tell what they are gonna do. At this point you just doing stuff and hope it works. Which is what alot of players tend to do. Even at high levels cause they ether don't respect the opponent, or they play some over used high tier, and people just been letting them get away with the same typical crap for years. If it works, why stop doing it right?

Reasons like this is why characters like Ganon don't really get anywhere. He is a character that his whole game relys on reads. Ganon whole game gets shut down against an opponent who is hard to read. So what is he gonna do then. What does he have left. Throw moves out and hope they hit. That luck factor is why alot of players don't get anywhere in this game. And it becomes worst for these players when thier opponents let them get away with this. They won't improve at all. And when they go to a tournament, they place like crap, even with a high tier.

Though I will say unlike melee, this game is more on reads, since hitstun seems to be a joke (unless with attacks like Peach's Dtilt, which i can follow up as a true combo) So when I go for damage, I have to pay attention to how my opponent tries to deal with my follow ups. Most people like to ether airdodge or attack. So I have to decide wether to wait for them to push their panic buttons or just go for the follow up.

Adapting to the player is important. You can not simple learn what to do in a match up and then play everyone the same way. You could beat a top Falco, then lose to a bad one cause of this. Giving up hits and seeing the most common thing the opponent will do in said situation is the way to do. That way you don't depend on this luck factor cause you not sure what to do, or just plan lazy. If you do something, it has a high % of landing. Even if you fail. You did NOTHING wrong. You picked the best option based on your data fishing from your opponent. It's called an educated GUESS for a reason.

And based on that Video, Ed noticed how his opponent would react to what he does. And Downloaded him. Halberd could not seem to do the same. Ed was on verizon fios, while halberd was on comcast.
 

Tesh

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Top level players can and DO rely on reads against each other. I stopped reading right there tbh, its like you don't even know how the game is played. People don't just do stuff and hope it works.
 

Rizen

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A read. An educated guess. This is different from something that is guaranteed. When fighting smart opponents, you can't rely on so call reads. Cause it is hard to tell what they are gonna do.
You don't understand how Dtilt works. It has a frame advantage and Zelda needs to react to how the opponent escapes.
Reasons like this is why characters like Ganon don't really get anywhere. He is a character that his whole game relys on reads. Ganon whole game gets shut down against an opponent who is hard to read. So what is he gonna do then. What does he have left. Throw moves out and hope they hit. That luck factor is why alot of players don't get anywhere in this game. And it becomes worst for these players when thier opponents let them get away with this. They won't improve at all. And when they go to a tournament, they place like crap, even with a high tier.
No, Ganon doesn't get anywhere because his frame data's terrible, grab range is bad, he gets exploited in some way by most every grab tactic, juggle etc and characters can use a faster jab to stop his approaches. He's a terrible character; it's not because reading's a bad tactic.
Throwing out moves and hoping they hit is a terrible tactic for any character.
Though I will say unlike melee, this game is more on reads, since hitstun seems to be a joke (unless with attacks like Peach's Dtilt, which i can follow up as a true combo) So when I go for damage, I have to pay attention to how my opponent tries to deal with my follow ups. Most people like to ether airdodge or attack. So I have to decide wether to wait for them to push their panic buttons or just go for the follow up.

Adapting to the player is important. You can not simple learn what to do in a match up and then play everyone the same way. You could beat a top Falco, then lose to a bad one cause of this. Giving up hits and seeing the most common thing the opponent will do in said situation is the way to do. That way you don't depend on this luck factor cause you not sure what to do, or just plan lazy. If you do something, it has a high % of landing. Even if you fail. You did NOTHING wrong. You picked the best option based on your data fishing from your opponent. It's called an educated GUESS for a reason.
This is all general adapting information. IDK why you're posting it.
 

Ghostbone

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Ganon has a command grab with guaranteed follow-ups, or at least a tech chase scenario

Honestly that's better than anything Zelda has lol.


As for Peach, she's about the same level as fox imo.
One of the only actually positive matchups vs ICs is nice, but then getting roflstomped by MK and Marth does suck.
Her shield pressure is amazing, turnips are cool, float is an option nobody else has, and she can kill with a fresh aerial, but she has no air-dodge (like, I'm pretty sure bowser could frame trap her out of it...) and terrible falling speed which can make it really easy to juggle her as long as you come from an angle rather than right below where her dair will beat out everything.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Why do you think Jiggz is above characters in I and J tier? Currently Jiggz is 3rd worst in the West and the worst in Japan http://www.smashboards.com/threads/american-japanese-tier-list-combined.327084/
Because I think she has a better match-up spread, but if you want to know why I think she has a better match-up spread...
*deep-breath in*


SHE NEVER HAS TO COMMIT TO ANYTHING
For starters, Jigglypuff has a very strong trait (meta knight is the only character who can compare in this regard) in that she is mostly immune to pressure if she wants to be. You can limit the options of almost every character in the game, that's what the current metagame is all about, creating a wall of solid frame data that slowly inches towards your opponent. However, due to her aerial mobility, 6 jumps, Pound and solid aerials Jigglypuff can escape all pressure by jumping and just holding a direction (air dodge is sometimes necessary). This gives her a free ticket to the ledge or basically anywhere on-stage. This isn't just a tool she has from neutral, mind you, she can jump into the opponent - close enough to be a threat via bair/pound/grab - and then just safely drift away. This lets you work out your opponent's habits, get inside their head and even condition them (to some degree, it by no means supplies her with all the information she needs).

BASIC PRESSURE
Secondly, she actually has some pretty strong tools just for general use, especially on the defensive side of things. I can't go through every single situation of course, but the general idea behind her spacing game is to jump into the very tip of bair range - from there she can mix-up by just fading away (as mentioned above - which can in turn be 'canceled' into a B-Reverse Pound, but I'll cover Pound later), she can jump again which opens up a whole new web of options (fade away + falling bair is very strong from this height, you can cross them up pretty easily, etc... Too hard to go into everything lol), she can go straight through the opponent (high risk, high reward), she can obviously just bair which is a decent move (and because she retracts her leg after using it, it's safe despite lacking a prominent disjoint), etc... It might sound like the opponent can just swat her out of everything on reaction, but she is actually intimidating enough to force opponents to throw out moves, this GIF paints a very good picture of how her spacing game works imo:

(That was from way back when I had a bad air dodging habit, but you get the idea - especially note how the DK shields after I hit him the first time, he could've just swatted me out of my jump into his face but he was afraid of throwing out another move; I'll get into Puff's punish game in a sec)

Jigglypuff is VERY good at the fundamentals of spacing (moving just into your opponent's range, and then moving just out of it), and her air speed lets her punish mistakes like that better than a lot of people think. I utilize dash-dancing and pivot-walking a lot with her because being in a specific position at a specific time is incredibly crucial to her playstyle, and her air speed + floatiness lets her do it really easily. She can also mix-up her standard backwards-facing-short-hop approach with a forward-facing SH nair - because it's a sex kick and because puff is so mobile you can often drift into the opponent and hit them out of their jumps when you get the read.

Long story short, her aerial mobility + a few key moves give her the tools to handle anything if you're smart enough.

PUNISHING
Her punishment game is phenomenal, her aerials just string together beautifully, she can land wherever she wants after a hit giving her an insane amount of options that the opponent has to deal with. This is one of the main areas that I feel the American Puffs are lacking in, but she can easily get 30% every time she hits in some match-ups (marth springs to mind). If you need an illustration of this, just think about all the things I could've done after that bair hit in the GIF - I could have landed closer to him (in grab range for me), jumped again (from there I have a billion options yet again), landed far away (as I did) and then go through him with a cross-up (I instead decided to just jump into his range to gain information, which I mentioned above), I could've predicted a spot-dodge/dropped shield/OoS action after I jumped into his shield at the end and B-reverse Pounded it, etc...
Her option coverage off of a single hit is just amazing.

Then you have her back throw. Back throw near the ledge sets up so beautifully for everything against some characters I can hardly put it into words. It creates reliable gimps in some match-ups - very few other characters in Brawl can say that, but it really just puts them at this perfect angle that very few characters are happy being in against Puff (above and behind her, but with no option of retreating and the added risk that anything that hits you will put you further off-stage, but still in that awful position). All of her throws are amazing for setting up/continuing pressure/strings to be honest, they put the opponent in bad positions and she can limit their options heavily just with her usual jump-into-the-opponent shenanigans.

Then she has Pound. Pound seems like a super nooby move because of how slow it is on start-up and cool down, but bare with me here: Pound is amazing because it has a large, long-lasting hitbox that moves. That's basically all there is to it, when your opponent commits to something you can time/space a Pound so that it hits the opponent as soon as they are vulnerable (this is why the b-reverse is important, it has better distance). On top of this, you also get a lot of situations with Puff where you condition them into thinking you'll drift back out so they won't commit to ANYTHING (including shield, shield is a commitment vs. a character who can cross-up and has a good grab + other options) and then you just Pound their face - that sounds especially nooby, but trust me, it's legitimate.

Finally, there's Rest. Rest is amazing because it's a frame 2 (practically frame 1 because the first frame is invincible) KO move. At KO% I legitimately create pressure on my opponents just by jumping around their shield because a single misstep and I can be inside them and out-speeding all of their options. You know how grabs sometimes get spot-dodged? Rest. Throw the opponent, jump into them to force a response and read it? Rest. Something I've been toying around with recently is grab-releasing at high % (on the ground) and then just doing that "hover over their shield with the threat of rest" thing.

I really don't like how people write it off as a "high risk, mid-reward move" because you shouldn't be using it if it's a risk, it's not like you have to start charging it preemptively or something, you see they are vulnerable and you take that opportunity to get inside them, THEN if they commit to something you can rest - the best punish they'll be getting out of you 'going for a Rest' is just hitting you away before you hit the button, not a fully-charged smash attack while you are helpless.

TIME-OUTS
The final thing to mention is her time-out ability. There isn't much to say here:
1. Six jumps, amazing air mobility, pound - she can waste a lot of time in the air
2. One of her stereotypical problems is a terrible approach - this doesn't matter if she doesn't have to approach.
That's pretty much it, I don't think her ability to time people out has ever been contested much.
It's worth noting, though, that a time-out style where you still pressure your opponent to some degree and attempt to hit them is superior to one where you just try to avoid everything - with our current stage-list, no character can play a keep-away game without throwing out attacks of their own, and Puff is no exception.

As for why she's underrated, there are a few reasons:
1. She appears very linear at face value. That leads to people picking her up, thinking that they understand her, losing, and then just casting her off as terrible.
2. Her niche is already filled by multiple, better characters (mk, wario, G&W, rob, etc...) - there is no reason to play her unless you very specifically like HER or HER playstyle.
3. She was never a popular character in the first place, so the masses didn't flock to her like they did with Yoshi and Sonic.

I consider her the marth that never was, to be honest:
He appears very linear at face value, and I recall early on in the game's history he was a lot worse. But due to his strength in melee (Puff wasn't universally considered strong in melee until after Brawl was released, and even then she didn't have a very large player-base) and his popularity as a character people pushed through and worked out how to use him properly. He rewards a very similar style of thinking to Puff where every small decision is critical, and you can make an opponent feel helpless if you just choose the right options (he's tricky because he has one option for every situation, instead of one option for multiple situations - Puff is the same).

I was going to divulge more helpful Puff information, but I've probably bored you enough - mostly about how everyone in the world probably sucks at the match-up apart from my state and why all of the amazing things I listed above have pretty interesting counters that prevent her from being upper mid tier.
 

Dark.Pch

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Top level players can and DO rely on reads against each other. I stopped reading right there tbh, its like you don't even know how the game is played. People don't just do stuff and hope it works.
I never said they did not rely on reads vs each other at high levels. You might wanna play closer attention to what I was saying. At high levels there are times where people do stuff and depend on luck.

And this happens in general alot. I fight alot of people like this.

- How many times I have to Fair to jab you to let you know you can not grab me or attack out of shield? people hope I mess up the spacing and just dont wanna block. There is obviously no damm point for me to go for a fair or jab mix up when people just wanna push buttons once I fair them.

- How many times do I have to bair to jab someone all to let them know they can not ^^^^^^^^^^^

- How many times I have to punish you for the same kind of evasion from my pressure for you to realize you have to do something else or seriously just wait.

I do this alot at ALL skill levels. And then I tend to give people respect. I would assume after all this time. They would learn their lesson by now. So I would just go for a mix up, and then they start pushing buttons and I get hit. So now I have to go back to the basics of beating this luck factor crap.

You really gonna sit here and tell me people don't actually do stuff and hope it works? Seriously?
 

Rizen

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Ganon has a command grab with guaranteed follow-ups, or at least a tech chase scenario

Honestly that's better than anything Zelda has lol.
Ganon's better followups are not guaranteed except sometimes a jab that hits opponents away and it's very difficult to land that forwardB. I think Gheb said at some point ForwardB would be a great move on a better character but Ganon's stats are bad. A simple jab beats it. Zelda's Nair cancels and Dtilt are easier to land imo. Approaching with Zelda is hard but approaching with Ganon is harder. :/ Ganon could be better than Zelda (in Japan the neutral stages and no timeouts help Ganon a lot) but from my experience I usually do better with Zelda. It's very hard to do anything to a decent player using a mid or higher tier with Ganon.
That's a good explanation (liked :bee:) . I still don't see why Jiggz is better than characters like PT or Bowser though.
From fighting vs Jiggz I found she can be a royal pain when I didn't know the MU but she's much more limited when I knew what I was doing. Some things wall her out really well and her disjoint isn't great. I agree she's probably underrated a little (like most low tiers) and timeouts are super annoying. Aside from her mobility she has to be at risk to land moves and can't take much abuse herself. I don't use her but I'm having trouble weighing Jiggz pros as better than say PT's or even Link's. She's probably better than Ganon or Zelda, idk.
 

Rizen

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There's not really anymore I can say; either I'd have to play against someone who makes me feel like she is worse than Link/PT, or you'd have to play someone who makes you feel the opposite :p
That's a good point.

If the MU chart is accurate, her MU spread is pretty bad.
:jigglypuff:
-3: :dk2::gw: :marth: :metaknight: :olimar::snake: :zerosuitsamus:
-2: :bowser2: :dedede: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :popo: :kirby2: :lucario::peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :toonlink::wario::wolf: :yoshi2:
-1: :ike::lucas::luigi2: :mario2::ness2: :rob: :samus2::sheik: :sonic:
0::falcon::link2::zelda:
2: :ganondorf:

IDK Jiggz MUs so I'm assuming this is mostly accurate. By that I could say PT and even Link have better MUs.

For the most part except a few nit-picks I'm happy with the tier list and MU chart.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I don't consider it accurate. Not going to give an actual MU chart with my opinions cause I'd have to think about it and it's getting pretty late, but... (all imo):
- mk is her only -3 (it's arguably -4 imo), snake could be argued as either a hard -2 or light -3 I guess, and it's very dependent on who gets the lead (all of her mus are)
- ZSS is only a -3 on that chart for the silliest, most theory-craft reasons (Jab links fully, uair is a good aerial and puff spends a lot of time in the air, hurr durr)
- almost all of her -2s and half the -1s could be shifted to be 1 point better for her at least
- she beats link, falcon and zelda pretty handily imo
 

Rizen

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- she beats link, falcon and zelda pretty handily imo
IMO Jiggz goes even vs Link and Zelda. Those MUs are big on mix ups. Jiggz dies early from Link's Utilt and Zelda's Usmash which aren't hard to land but she gimps and pressures them well. IDK about C Falcon. I actually feel Ganon does better vs Jiggz than Zelda but chasing her down and risking timeouts is probable what pushes it worse.
Using Wolf or G&W vs Jiggz I felt a solid advantage or better. Those suck for Jiggz; she can't do much short of a hard read. Bowser had a harder time but that's because I didn't have the GR>Uair timing right lol.
 

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir

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Since I'm bored and was most insultingly left out of a Jigglypuff discussion, I'm going to post my opinions of Puff's Matchups

:jigglypuff:
-3: :gw: :metaknight: :snake:
Snake is an easier -3 than MK, but still -3 imo
-2: :dk2::diddy::olimar::kirby2: :zerosuitsamus::peach::pikachu2::pit::pt::toonlink::wolf::yoshi2:
I used to think DK was -3 and Olimar was -1, but from recent experiences I know think they're both -2
-1: :lucas::dedede::luigi2: :marth::mario2::ness2::rob::sheik::sonic::wario::lucario::popo::fox::falco::bowser2:
Marth is easy for me, Fox and Falco can be gimped so easily, and Bowser is just a big target ;)
0::link2::zelda::samus2::ike:
Ike is even easier to gimp than Fox/Falco lmao. Samus is just free and imo is a bottom 5 character in the game (but let's not get into that, because I don't feel like arguing about Not-Jigglypuff right now)
1. :falcon::ganondorf:
Ganon and Falcon both seem to be similar MUs, Falcon is a bit harder because he's faster but both Matchups are -1 imo

There are probably some more stuff that could/should be changed around (such as GW or Link) but I left them as is because I don't have any experience in the Matchup

If you have any questions about certain characters let me know.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I wouldn't say Jiggs vs. Link is big on mix-ups
I'd say it's big on her easily avoiding all of his projectiles and beating him soundly in terms of option selection, because all of his moves are slow and punishable and his mobility is practically non-existent. And then she gets the lead and just further increases it as the match goes on.

I'm gonna make a chart now cause I'm super nice:
+2.5 :falcon:
+2.0 :ganondorf::link2:
+1.5 :zelda:
+0.0:luigi2::mario2::lucas:
-0.5:ness2::sheik::pt:
-1.0 :diddy::dedede::falco::zerosuitsamus::popo::peach::pit::ike::samus2::sonic:
-1.5 :bowser2::dk2::olimar::yoshi2::fox::kirby2::lucario::pikachu2::toonlink::wario::wolf:
-2.0 :marth::gw::rob:
-2.5 :snake:
-3.5 :metaknight:

A lot of these can vary quite easily due to gimps, maintaining leads, etc... I don't feel comfortable posting the list without reasoning, so...
+2.5 :falcon:(gets wrecked)
+2.0 :ganondorf:(no options but punishes super hard):link2:(no options, might be as bad as falcon)
+1.5 :zelda:(this is at best for zelda, assuming she doesn't lose the lead, then it gets worse)
+0.0:luigi2::mario2::lucas:(admittedly not too confident about these...)
-0.5:ness2:(fair):sheik:(needles):pt:(squirtle beats puff but can be timed out + charizard is okay vs. her)
-1.0 :diddy:(fair + camping):dedede:(bair, SUPER lead dependent though):falco:(requires technical proficiency by the puff):zerosuitsamus:(this is a really cool mu):popo:(SUPER lead dependent):peach:(beam sword/bombs - lot of turnips in this mu):pit:(requires technical proficiency by the puff):ike:(another cool mu):samus2:(requires patience/technical proficiency):sonic:(sonic needs to be good to win, but if the sonic is good, he shouldn't really lose imo, pretty static mu)
-1.5 :bowser2:(dependent on GRs, Rests and time-outs):dk2:(giant punch is important, this mu could be -2 if puff can't play aggressively enough):olimar:(requires a very specific playstyle from puff):yoshi2:(grab release + good aerials + eggs - it's manageable though):fox:(lasers):kirby2:(bair, + he's hard to hit + he can KO with uthrow):lucario:(rolls & dair make pressure hard):pikachu2:(not confident on this one, pika's dsmash is significant in a weird way):toonlink:(requires technical ability from puff):wario:(neither character can hit the other reliably, SUPER dependent on wafts and rests):wolf:(aerial mobility + good aerials + laser)
-2.0 :marth:(fair. That's it.):gw:(lots of stuff, she can abuse his linearity though):rob:(lasers, ftilt)
-2.5 :snake:(contrary to popular belief, she can approach and KO snake, it's super hard to beat him out in terms of raw trades though, this one can definitely vary a lot)
-3.5 :metaknight:(he has an option to counter everything, he punishes mistakes much more consistently and much harder than every other character and is incredibly hard to KO. Even when I'm playing at my best this usually goes to a time out with mk barely winning - but not afraid of losing because he can get a lead and maintain it super easily - would be noticeably better if the timer was longer imo)

I can elaborate on any of these if requested, I'm a lot more knowledgeable on her weird mid tier mus now than I used to be, I feel. I'm very confident with most of these rankings, but I also feel like they can vary quite a lot and I don't think these should be taken as super precise just because I used 0.5s


This is really cool because it's not as extreme as my list, but it's more realistic than the current one
 

Dark.Pch

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You don't understand how Dtilt works. It has a frame advantage and Zelda needs to react to how the opponent escapes.

No, Ganon doesn't get anywhere because his frame data's terrible, grab range is bad, he gets exploited in some way by most every grab tactic, juggle etc and characters can use a faster jab to stop his approaches. He's a terrible character; it's not because reading's a bad tactic.
Throwing out moves and hoping they hit is a terrible tactic for any character.

This is all general adapting information. IDK why you're posting it.
By how much advantage does her Dtilt have on hit and on block? If you can bring me this info, I'll gladly admit I was wrong.

There is always something wrong with said characters. But most has things about them to deal with it. Or be somewhat effective. If Ganon is to land any solid hits and kills, it's based of reads. We all know Ganon is slow. Ganon as nothing to realy rely on to get damage and give people a hard time. To do this he has to go for reads. I'm sure somewhere in this thread verm explained what it is to play Ganon. As smart as that man it, look at what he has to do to even get a hit. F-B tech chases and punishing wake ups/rolls is all on reads. He has to guess correctly to get damage. All his power means nothing if he can not guess correctly on a consistant basis. And that was the main point of it all. What it is to play Ganon.

And I posted that cause since were were on the subject of reads and Ganon.
 

BlueXenon

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My current opinion on the tier list:

Why is Ness so low on your tier list?
Fow and Shaky have really good wins vs top level players and Ness has had decent tournament results, including first place at Whobo 4 mid tier singles.

Here are a list of top players that have lost to Ness.
Rich Brown, DEHF, Trela, Salem, Tyrant, Abadango, Denti, Ally (mid tier singles), and an old post by Gheb_01 saids that Ryo lost to ness.
 

Teran

Through Fire, Justice is Served
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So where did this Marth boner come from?
 

xDD-Master

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LOL at those puff match ups XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Especially really big LOL at the Wario-Puff explanation, good luck on landing rest vs. a good Wario, ROFLMAO
 

Seagull Joe

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My current opinion on the tier list:



Justification (keep in mind this is all imo, I don't mean to be stating this **** like it's irrefutable or unanimously agreed on):
-Ice Climbers are not a step above Diddy/Olimar/Snake. Just... no.

-Snake is underrated at the moment - his Olimar mu is nowhere near as bad as people claim (look at Japan if you want to see why), and people seem to be pessimistic about his mk match-up recently as well, which seems more like people *****ing about how Snake gets punished hard in the mu and ignoring his results (which always have and still do indicate that he does very well in the mk mu).

-I'm not entirely sold on Lucario being a tier above Wolf (mostly because of his worse mk match-up), but not having significant trouble vs. wario, dedede and pika is pretty nice

-Toon Link's mk match-up sucks. That's about all there is to it lol. I'd put him as equal to G&W probably, I can't ever decide who's better. Fox is super nice just because he does amazing vs. mk and absolutely fine vs. EVERYONE else excluding a horrific ICs mu and a pretty terrible pikachu match-up.

-G&W is underrated vs. Diddy and ICs, they are both -1 as long as you platform camp intelligently. ICs actually have no way of approaching G&W on a platform (if he shields uair, he can up-b and launch ICs into the air with the wind-box, regardless of how well-spaced the uair is - it's a pretty big deal).

-Dedede is so overrated, waaayyy too many bad match-ups to be as high as he is (especially since two of them are mk and ICs)

-Kirby is overrated, same reason as D3 but all of his mus look better than they are because kirby is good at making games go to last stock (but then he can't KO cause bair is stale - this isn't even hyperbole, bair is kirby's only option in soooo many situations and he can't KO without it. His best mus are ones where he can refresh bair, or he doesn't need it to KO, otherwise he has to die to refresh it lol). I may have placed him too low in retrospect, but eh, the order of the characters in this tier could really be jumbled in any way

-Lucas might be better than Ness, I dunno

-Jigglypuff is underrated as ****. She does decently against ICs, Olimar, Diddy, Falco and most of the upper mid tiers, loses harder to a few characters (marth and snake, most notably), and gets destroyed by mk - that's a better mu spread than mario's multiple unwinnable match-ups lol. You can argue her match-ups if you want but ask yourself how well you really understand this character, and how much weight your opinion carries - I'm not saying my opinion carries any weight mind you, I've never achieved anything, I'm just saying that your word is as good as mine.

-Zelda/Ganon is a toss up but I think Ganon is better just because of how hard he punishes mistakes. It's easy to say "oh I can just do this and not lose to ganon" but then you slip up once and get hit by side-b > dair > uair and you've suddenly gone from 10%~ to KO%. Zelda is similarly exploitable, but she doesn't have that factor.
You sir are almost as deluded as Rizen.

:018:
 

Ghostbone

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You sir are almost as deluded as Rizen.
No you are
/let's say things without providing any justification.

Why is Ness so low on your tier list?
Fow and Shaky have really good wins vs top level players and Ness has had decent tournament results, including first place at Whobo 4 mid tier singles.
Ness has unwinnable matchups vs MK, Marth and Snake (and DK but he's not relevant lol)
He's really bad tbh, bottom of mid tier/maybe top of low tier suits him.
 

Seagull Joe

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No you are
/let's say things without providing any justification.


Ness has unwinnable matchups vs MK, Marth and Snake (and DK but he's not relevant lol)
He's really bad tbh, bottom of mid tier/maybe top of low tier suits him.
Justification? Have you seen either of their posts? Rizen's posts are just delusional. Grim's posts are just super optimistic for a character that is utter garbage.

Also, :ness2: vs :metaknight: is not unwinnable at all. I think you mean :dedede:.

:018:
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Lucario has a solid +2 on Jigglypuff.

Actually a lot of those Jigglypuff match-ups and her placing on the tier list is pretty optimistic.
 

Z'zgashi

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+2.5 :falcon:
+2.0 :ganondorf::link2:
+1.5 :zelda:
+0.0:luigi2::mario2::lucas:
-0.5:ness2::sheik::pt:
-1.0 :diddy::dedede::falco::zerosuitsamus::popo::peach::pit::ike::samus2::sonic:
-1.5 :bowser2::dk2::olimar::yoshi2::fox::kirby2::lucario::pikachu2::toonlink::wario::wolf:
-2.0 :marth::gw::rob:
-2.5 :snake:
-3.5 :metaknight:
I think I overall agree with her advantages, but I think you have a lot of her disadvantages leaning too much towards Jiggs (imo she loses harder in a handful of these). But even with those MUs (ie beating 4 bottom tier characters, having 3 even MUs against other low tiers, and losing to everyone else) how does beating abysmal characters justify being so high. I mean, on your list, that MU spread justifies around PT/Mario imo.
 
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