Official SWF Tier List v8

[RaptorTEC]

Wtf at puff being above anyone.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

C'mon guys, Zelda isn't that bad.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Every low tier user says their character is underrated.

But wouldn't that imply that, if every low tier character is underrated, the order of characters is pretty much the same now as it would be if the characters weren't "underrated"

Also Jigglypuff is SSS tier you guys are all idiots if you don't see it

 

[Tesh]

Why is Ness so low on your tier list?
Fow and Shaky have really good wins vs top level players and Ness has had decent tournament results, including first place at Whobo 4 mid tier singles.

Here are a list of top players that have lost to Ness.
Rich Brown, DEHF, Trela, Salem, Tyrant, Abadango, Denti, Ally (mid tier singles), and an old post by Gheb_01 saids that Ryo lost to ness.

you can't really count ally losing in mid tier singles when he doesnt main a mid tier. shaky beat mcpeepants twice though, so you could toss that in there. I think Ness should move up to at least Sonic's level. His recovery and grab release issues arent nearly as crippling as Sonics difficulty killling good characters, Peach's missing airdodge, or DK and ROB having awful shield coverage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ITT: People who don't use Jigglypuff and have never played against a Jigglypuff and have no more authority on Jigglypuff's match-ups and position on the tier list than I do telling me that I'm wrong without any justifcation.

It's cute that putting a character low on a list is enough to create an unshakable confirmation bias in you kids.

 

[Rizen]

@DarkPeach see Dtilt spoiler section http://www.smashboards.com/threads/fairy-fountain-research-thread-buhbye-ol-chum.218082/

LOL why are we talking about jiggs.... god this thread is going nowhere real fast

LOL why are we talking about jiggs.... god this thread is going nowhere real fast

Justification? Have you seen either of their posts? Rizen's posts are just delusional. Grim's posts are just super optimistic for a character that is utter garbage.

Attitudes (and trolling) like these are exactly why Japanese players like Ocean come over and beat M2K's MK with ROB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VOtACLllqg because western people just assumed bad characters are trash who can't do anything, anyone who knows otherwise is stupid /end of story. If you look at their tier list http://www.smashboards.com/threads/american-japanese-tier-list-combined.327084/ several characters (like Link) are higher because people don't assume they're trash and actually get good with them.

@Fourstar you can't just write off low tiers; that's why people lose to them. You have to know and respect all characters even the bad ones.

@Seagull I respect your Wolf and MK expertise but not your opinions on most other characters. I disagree with Grim but I don't try to pass insults as arguments.



This is why the thread should be shut down: it practically breeds trolling and this is renewed when the next MU comes up The moderation's terrible.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

it practically breeds trolling

What?!?!

Trolling??!!?!

Where!?

I don't believe you...

 

[Dark.Pch]

@DarkPeach see Dtilt spoiler section http://www.smashboards.com/threads/fairy-fountain-research-thread-buhbye-ol-chum.218082/

This this does not answer my question. This does not show how many frames of hit stun or hit advantage she has.

 

[xDD-Master]

ITT: People who don't use Jigglypuff and have never played against a Jigglypuff and have no more authority on Jigglypuff's match-ups and position on the tier list than I do telling me that I'm wrong without any justifcation.

It's cute that putting a character low on a list is enough to create an unshakable confirmation bias in you kids.

How do you know that no one of us uses or used Jiggs or played against one? Are you... God O_O ?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because even if you did, every other Puff I have ever seen would automatically lose to any character who can spam a disjointed tilt, so they can safely be ignored.

I am God, though.

 

[Rizen]

This this does not answer my question. This does not show how many frames of hit stun or hit advantage she has.

Did you read this?

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/fairy-fountain-research-thread-buhbye-ol-chum.218082/
STUN
Stun is when the opponent flinches. The higher their percent, the higher their stun. Other factors include the decay of Dtilt itself - the fresher it is, the more stun it gives.

Dtilt hit advantage on Pit:​

10%: - 4​

20%: - 2​

30%: +1​

40%: +3​

50%: + 6​

60%: + 8​

70%: +10​

80%: pops Pit up.​

At earlier percents, Dtilt doesn't offer many advantages. It shines at 50% and later. The stun at this point gives Zelda the frame advantages to follow up accordingly.

50% here is an average amongst the overall cast. The lighter the character, the earlier the percent will be that starts to make Dtilt more effective. The opposite applies for heavier characters:

Dtilt Advantage at 50%​

​

+4: Bowser; Donkey Kong​

​

+5: Mario; Luigi; Yoshi; Wario; Link; Ganon; Samus; ROB; Dedede; Wolf; Lucario; Ike; Snake; Captain Falcon ​

​

+6: Peach; Diddy Kong; Zelda; Sheik; Toon Link; Ice Climbers; Pit; Olimar; Falco; Marth; Ness; Lucas; Sonic​

​

+7: ZZS; Kirby; Meta Knight; Fox; Pikachu; G&W;​

​

+8: Jigglypuff​

Stun that is weakened due to decaying your Dtilt can be restored by damaging the opponent with a followup. This is because the opponent's percentage is increasing from followups (stun increase) whilst Dtilt is staling to provide such followups (stun decrease) - there is a balance.

 

[Dark.Pch]

What I find funny is that people say a character sucks and all that (in this case puff) then I see people struggling. If jiggz is garbage, you should be mopping the floor with her. Then people can never give a good reason for why they struggle. Why if you having a hard time against something so easy, the one that is garbage is you.

 

[infiniteV115]

I played SoulPech in pools at Rain 1. Game 2, I SD'ed twice at low % and still beat him.
In other words, I killed him 3 times and he never killed me.
In other words, it's as if I had 3 more stocks than he did.

Therefore, ZSS : Puff is +3.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah but Pech isn't me, you see.

 

[Seagull Joe]

@DarkPeach see Dtilt spoiler section http://www.smashboards.com/threads/fairy-fountain-research-thread-buhbye-ol-chum.218082/

Attitudes (and trolling) like these are exactly why Japanese players like Ocean come over and beat M2K's MK with ROB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VOtACLllqg because western people just assumed bad characters are trash who can't do anything, anyone who knows otherwise is stupid /end of story. If you look at their tier list http://www.smashboards.com/threads/american-japanese-tier-list-combined.327084/ several characters (like Link) are higher because people don't assume they're trash and actually get good with them.

@Fourstar you can't just write off low tiers; that's why people lose to them. You have to know and respect all characters even the bad ones.

@Seagull I respect your Wolf and MK expertise but not your opinions on most other characters. I disagree with Grim but I don't try to pass insults as arguments.

This is why the thread should be shut down: it practically breeds trolling and this is renewed when the next MU comes up The moderation's terrible.

shouldn't beat , however, matchup inexperience/pressure to perform can come into play.

Who loses to LT's? What top or even high level players have lost to them?

The things I said were not trolling. I meant it all. It's like arguing with Bubba King. My brain cells just wither away.

The only I've played has been Serynder aka Zander aka Lol. aka Poyo's brother. He always gets last or 2nd to last...

 

[Rizen]

shouldn't beat , however, matchup inexperience/pressure to perform can come into play.

Pressure to preform? We're talking M2K here. Western Smash shouldn't dismiss bad characters; that's why he lost.

Who loses to LT's? What top or even high level players have lost to them?

Recently?

Just got knocked out of teams with Lies!

We beat mvd/Esam and Seibrik/Master Raven back to back.
13th out of 45

Zelda! She murdered them and Seibrik's team so bad!!!

Also, finished 1-2 in bracket. Lost to Atomsk, beat True Blue and then lost to PWii. I had a blast with this tourney and pretty inspired to try to have one good run at a national. Even though I won't be able to practice too much, I definitely want to make some more noise.

Trolling is spamming that everything you don't understand/agree with is stupid.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Zelda is good in 2v2, he means singles.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pressure to preform? We're talking M2K here. Western Smash shouldn't dismiss bad characters; that's why he lost.

Recently?

Trolling is spamming that everything you don't understand/agree with is stupid.

Western Smash does dismiss bad characters. isn't "that" bad though.

Even M2k has pressure to perform. Talk to the guy sometime. He isn't always confident (Just watch him vs Otori Apex 2013 when he gave up. He ended up winning the set due to America cheering for him). 95% of people were rooting against M2k vs Ocean. The opposite occurred the next Apex.

That's doubles. Doubles and singles are completely different games and doubles does not reflect the tier list. I was there to witness that set.

Ed didn't beat anyone of top/high level in tourney. He took a game from Atomsk and beat True Blue. True Blue isn't a top 5 even.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Also, Sonic is ass.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda is good in 2v2, he means singles.

Read the whole post. Also Seagull didn't specify singles. ROB loses -2 to MK.
I'm agreeing with DarkPeach http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-76#post-15779145
The only defense people who don't know much about characters they're bashing use doesn't even relate to how the MUs are played and the thread becomes a trolling fest.
Any evidence that doesn't support a person's limited views is ignored.

Anyone who posts in here is a fool for thinking productive discussion will take place.

 

[Z'zgashi]

This is the Tier List thread, the Tier List is based off 1v1 results, someone talking about a character's performance in this thread should always be considered in a 1v1 setting unless explicitly said otherwise.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This is the Tier List thread, the Tier List is based off 1v1 results, someone talking about a character's performance in this thread should always be considered in a 1v1 setting unless explicitly said otherwise.

Yea. Why would I reference doubles in this thread...

I DO **** . I do not get your point Rizen.

 

[Rizen]

There might have been singles in there if you look at the post

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah but Pech isn't me, you see.

I agree, it makes much more sense to base the ZSS:Jigglypuff MU around what might happen if you and V115 played each other, as opposed to what happened between he and SoulPech:

ZSS:Jiggs is +4 ZSS.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I have no idea what youre talking about now Rizen.

And just because a character is bad =/= you should mop the floor with them. A lot of bad characters have MUs where they can do just fine and even contend with better characters, the amount of control a higher tiered character should show is determined by the MU, not the placement on the Tier List, so I disagree with Dark.Pch.

 

[Seagull Joe]

There might have been singles in there if you look at the post

I looked at my own post. I did not reference doubles or teams. This thread discusses singles accomplishments/rankings. How you could think I meant doubles is beyond my comprehension.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Seagull, list off some Sonic's better than True Blue. I'm curious, because I think he's at least a top 5 Sonic.

 

[Rizen]

I have no idea what youre talking about now Rizen.

And just because a character is bad =/= you should mop the floor with them. A lot of bad characters have MUs where they can do just fine and even contend with better characters, the amount of control a higher tiered character should show is determined by the MU, not the placement on the Tier List, so I disagree with Dark.Pch.

^But that's the point he's making people just say a character's bad -4 when really it's just what you said^. He was being sarcastic about all these extremes people throw out because a character's bad. There isn't evidence to support characters are as bad as people make it sound.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^But that's the point he's making people just say a character's bad -4 when really it's just what you said^. He was being sarcastic about all these extremes people throw out because a character's bad. There isn't evidence to support characters are as bad as people make it sound.

I have a hunch: if we were to actually comb through the years of tournament data to find accurate results for Link, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, etc., it would look far, far worse than we think it is.

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Seagull Joe]

Seagull, list off some Sonic's better than True Blue. I'm curious, because I think he's at least a top 5 Sonic.

Meek, X, Espy, Tesh, and Kai are better least in my opinion.

Edit: Tesh and True Blue could swap as the 5th spot. I do not know who has better performances/wins at this time. So he could be considered a top 5 at the moment.

 

[Tesh]

Seagull, list off some Sonic's better than True Blue. I'm curious, because I think he's at least a top 5 Sonic.

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/the-top-5-brawl-us-can-mex.296541/

true blue will never be a top sonic WAHAHAHAHAAHA!!

 

[#HBC | Scary]

X/Espy = Given
Kai = Haven't seen enough of him, and I know he has a Diddy as well.
Tesh = he's pretty solid
Meek = he still brings in results?

Just my two cents, don't sleep on true blue lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

^But that's the point he's making people just say a character's bad -4 when really it's just what you said^. He was being sarcastic about all these extremes people throw out because a character's bad. There isn't evidence to support characters are as bad as people make it sound.

Having a -4 =/= bad character, it means a bad MU. That's the point IM making. Sure, most -4's belong to bad characters, but using words like 'garbage' to describe the character or saying a character that is bad should be easy isnt true. Now a character that has a -3 or -4 in the MU, thats different, but you (and Dark.Pch) need to choose your words better.

 

[Tesh]

I haven't seen anything to suggest Kai was a contender.

Don't forget Wonf and Brawlman, the forgotten Sonics of the South. I think they are 3rd/4th tbh.

 

[Seagull Joe]

X/Espy = Given
Kai = Haven't seen enough of him, and I know he has a Diddy as well.
Tesh = he's pretty solid
Meek = he still brings in results?

Just my two cents, don't sleep on true blue lol.

Kai has always been super solid. He just does not care to post in a thread like this or argue about being good. He's legit though.

I won't sleep on True Blue, but I would like to play him since he isn't on my list of 's I've slain yet.

List:

• X
• Meek
• Speed
• D1aos
• Wedge
• Espy
• Shadofiend
• Kid Goggles
• Bionic

Ps: Tesh, you will be added to the list at Whobo. Just letting you know in advance .

I haven't seen anything to suggest Kai was a contender.

Don't forget Wonf and Brawlman, the forgotten Sonics of the South. I think they are 3rd/4th tbh.

I do not know who Brawlman is, but Wonf is good as ****. I forgot about that guy.

Kai beat Pink Fresh with . He also has been absolutely destroying Nc with him plus .

 

[Rizen]

Having a -4 =/= bad character, it means a bad MU. That's the point IM making. Sure, most -4's belong to bad characters, but using words like 'garbage' to describe the character or saying a character that is bad should be easy isnt true. Now a character that has a -3 or -4 in the MU, thats different, but you (and Dark.Pch) need to choose your words better.

I agree. You have to look at what I've been saying this whole time about people labeling characters as bad and thinking they can't do anything being not true. People assume bad character= auto -4 and they have no tools (this has happened a lot).

I'm done with this thread. This and the MU thread are hater and troll houses and should be shut down.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Tesh don't let it happen!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I agree. You have to look at what I've been saying this whole time about people labeling characters as bad and thinking they can't do anything being not true. People assume bad character= auto -4 and they have no tools (this has happened a lot).

I'm done with this thread. This and the MU thread are hater and troll houses and should be shut down.

Dude, I bet you beat your brother with Ganondorf, like, all the time. **** the haters, man!

 

[Tesh]

Kai has always been super solid. He just does not care to post in a thread like this or argue about being good. He's legit though.

I won't sleep on True Blue, but I would like to play him since he isn't on my list of 's I've slain yet.

List:

• X
• Meek
• Speed
• D1aos
• Wedge
• Espy
• Shadofiend
• Kid Goggles
• Bionic

Ps: Tesh, you will be added to the list at Whobo. Just letting you know in advance .


I do not know who Brawlman is, but Wonf is good as ****. I forgot about that guy.

Kai beat Pink Fresh with . He also has been absolutely destroying Nc with him plus .

I hear good things about Kai, but I'm all about the results and I never see anything good. I guess wherever he is from, they don't post the results much. Every time I ask, it seems like people refuse to tell me who he has beaten. Some call him a legend, some call him a fraud.

Generally bad characters beating other bad characters doesn't put players "up there". Especially borderline low tiers... I'm not trash talking Pink Fresh or NC, but I don't know of any NC players off the top of my head. I mean... I beat top players of other bad characters too but its not that big of a deal.

Collect Brawlman and Zero at Whobo as well. Like me, they don't travel very far so this will be your chance. BSP is another Sonic that might attend. Florida has Sonics too so you will be a legend after Whobo.

@ Ed, I've played that matchup 3 times in my entire career and never won it. I'll do what I can though.

 

[Osennecho]

Yeah but Pech isn't me, you see.

You really aren't helping your argument there....