Official SWF Tier List v8

[Tesh]

you don't really need so much variety in kill moves as long as the ones you have are reliable

thats where sheik's problem comes in, upsmash, nair, bair and fsmash are hard to land properly for killing

 

[Espy Rose]

Dsmash tho

Nair tho

You forgot dair and utilt.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

It's frustrating to play Sheik since she is all about knowing all your decays. Seriously! Some things I do will work due to proper decay, and other times it will not work.

Tipper Usmash has Fox Usmash potential for killing but it's very hard work to land it. I certainly feel like she can make it to the upper mid tier or even the BL tier but she still needs much more rep. Like MUCH MORE rep.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You forgot dair and utilt.

I was only mentioning actual kill moves, not Gimping moves (Dair)

I did forget Utilt, sorry

 

[Tesh]

Fresh Dair/Uair kill better than what most characters can have, especially considering the speed. They just are so useful that MKs don't really have them fresh.

Dair is about as strong as sheik's dsmash I think (both kill at like 150 near the ledge).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Utilt is not a reliable kill option for MK lol
Nair punishes mistakes, requires a laggy option by the opponent (not nobody should do laggy moves agaisnt MK tho) or a read.
Also, people always expect Dsmash, despite it being so fast it won't really surprise anybody.

If MK can control stuff that good-like to the point he does not need to worry about not being able to kill well, then Sheik should not have problem either, she is much faster, has more (horizontal) burst range (better punishes), and deals more damage than MK... though she's much more susceptible to being abused...

Point being, "lack of kill power" should NOT be the reason she's so low in the list.

 

[BlueXenon]

Utilt is not a reliable kill option for MK lol
Nair punishes mistakes, requires a laggy option by the opponent (not nobody should do laggy moves agaisnt MK tho) or a read.
Also, people always expect Dsmash, despite it being so fast it won't really surprise anybody.

If MK can control stuff that good-like to the point he does not need to worry about not being able to kill well, then Sheik should not have problem either, she is much faster, has more (horizontal) burst range (better punishes), and deals more damage than MK... though she's much more susceptible to being abused...

Point being, "lack of kill power" should NOT be the reason she's so low in the list.

I always see MK's dsmash surprise people and cause bad DI, including top players like Salem and Nairo.

 

[Shaya]

"nobody should do laggy moves against MK tho"

Really?

 

[Delta-cod]

Time to beat MKs with jab only.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Eh, maybe it's something about how I play only waiting for opponents to mess up and punishing them for doing something wrong, so maybe local players are used to that and play much more carefully.

*flies away again*

 

[Tesh]

moves dont need to be very laggy to get hit by a frame 5 ground move with massive range or a frame 4 aerial

uptilt is a pretty niche move, i'd say its fair enough that other characters might find it useful, but mk has much better so its rarely thought of.

GSL is another strong but often stale kill move

 

[Dekillsage]

Utilt is not a reliable kill option for MK lol
Nair punishes mistakes, requires a laggy option by the opponent (not nobody should do laggy moves agaisnt MK tho) or a read.
Also, people always expect Dsmash, despite it being so fast it won't really surprise anybody.

If MK can control stuff that good-like to the point he does not need to worry about not being able to kill well, then Sheik should not have problem either, she is much faster, has more (horizontal) burst range (better punishes), and deals more damage than MK... though she's much more susceptible to being abused...

Point being, "lack of kill power" should NOT be the reason she's so low in the list.

Utilt is actually pretty reliable, for what it is.
You can frame trap into nair. You can't react to dsmash, and when grab is also an option saying people expect it isn't really true.
Sheiks problem compared to MK is that you can actually approach sheik, the risk reward is almost always in your favor(assuming you're playing a good character). You try to go in vs MK and you can die, so beeeee careful. She also doesn't have nado, 5 jumps?(i4get), a move to land with, shuttle loop etc etc.
Like MK kills almost everyone fine, and has reliable ways to do it. Sheik has Usmash and its kind of hard to land, and also suffers from other things besides kill power.

Time to beat MKs with jab only.

You got this!!!!!

GSL is another strong but often stale kill move

GSL is often stale? Hm. News to me *shrug*

 

[Tesh]

Well GSL and ASL are the same thing so yea, its not uncommon for it to get stale. If you lived til 120 for GSL to start killing, he probably tried to gimp you with shuttle loop already.

You can react to Dsmash for DI purposes. Its 5 frames to hit, then you have a few more for hitlag. If you have quick reflexes, you shouldn't DI it horribly. Its still a strong move though, so it still kills well fresh. Most of the time you see people DI it poorly is because they saw it coming, but didn't think they were even in range to get hit by it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's frustrating to play Sheik since she is all about knowing all your decays. Seriously! Some things I do will work due to proper decay, and other times it will not work.

Tipper Usmash has Fox Usmash potential for killing but it's very hard work to land it. I certainly feel like she can make it to the upper mid tier or even the BL tier but she still needs much more rep. Like MUCH MORE rep.

I think it's flat-out too easy to trade with Sheik. Her hitboxes and range kind of suck and it's often really easy to say "oh, I took 10% from sheik, np I'll just do like 7% back and I win because Sheik kills at 900%."

Sheik has incredible mobility and movement options, as well as fast normals and I think Sheik is best-served trying to outplay her opponents using these choices. Dealing damage where she can and avoiding return damage is incredibly important to Sheik because her leads are so fragile. Mobility is really one of the best strengths you can have in brawl, and Sheik can totally abuse that and win games.

Ultimately I think the fact that any damage dealt to Sheik is so devastating hurts Sheik too much to be anything more than mid tier, but her mobility options give her the ability to outplay almost any match-up that isn't an autoloss, so she can be competitive when the stars align and nothing too unfortunate happens.

 

[Tesh]

^ Thats pretty much how the matchup plays vs Sonic. She kinda just runs all over you and still loses because of her weight, recovery and lack of kill options.

Its a shame, because if they made Zelda decent and had faster load times (like Melee), they might make a great team.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah and that's ignoring the fact that for the first 50% of each stock or so, few of Sheik's good moves are even safe on hit.

:/

Sheik is really interesting, she's the perfect example as to why good frame data isn't everything.

 

[FourStar]

I remember M2k saying sheik is one of the better characters in the game. i would really love to see him explain cuz i'm kinda curious to what his reasoning is

 

[Dekillsage]

Probably because she can grab release-> usmash MK lol

 

[New_Dumal]

I really enjoy that tier list.
Obviously ins't perfect, but I can't understand why are you complaining so much about it (at least in the first pages).

Everyone here have his ideas about the game and even from the MU's. So everyone could make a personal tier list.
This was the general one, trying to mix the Brawl results with the MU discussions and even votes.
IC is in right place and I'm happy with Marth in #5. Snake nicely yet a "top tier" is great too....

ZSS surprises everyone with the APEX.This result cannot change the fact that we don't see many ZSS's beating M2K in finals everyday....
My main is Pit, and I'm truly happy with his position too. I believe he should invert position with Fox, but it's o.k that way.
If he was stronger (more evetive kill moves) he should deserve his High tier position the Japanese gives him.

Anyway, nice tier list. Represents well the actual SSBB scenario.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Except marth

 

[New_Dumal]

OMG, what happens at SKTAR 2 ?Like... seriously?
I just can't watch the camp because some problems here and man... that's weirds results...
How could I miss it ?<O>

 

[Osennecho]

Except marth

And everyone knows it. Except apparently a couple special individuals. When this tier list came out I thought he should be 7th. As the meta has evolved and I've gotten better I'm now confident he should be 8th.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marth should most definitely be in the double digits.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth has solid basic traits but lacks any sort of surprise factor. It's like, yeah there's fair zoning and side-b punishes but his mix-ups are all gimmicks. His gimmicks don't deal enough damage that you really care, either. Solid basic defense and punishes work wonders against Marth.

>Marth jumps
>Guy holds R
>Marth falls to the ground and grabs
>Crowd goes "Ooohhh"
>Marth gets 4%+maybe a stale fair
>proceeds to lose
>5th on tier list

 

[Sinister Slush]

Probably because she can grab release-> usmash MK lol

So can Yoshi, but you don't see him being any higher.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Flaoc is bad.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Flaoc more like Freeoc

 

[Dekillsage]

So can Yoshi, but you don't see him being any higher.

Sheiks kills at like 80% lol
sorry yoshi sux q-q

 

[Sinister Slush]

With Sheik you need to hit him with the sweetspot of it and DACUS. Which surprisingly enough many people don't know how to do compared to others like Snake or Falco.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

With Sheik you need to hit him with the sweetspot of it and DACUS. Which surprisingly enough many people don't know how to do compared to others like Snake or Falco.

Sheik's Dacus is a lot harder than Snake or Falco

I had to change my controls just to be able to Sheik's

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sheik's Dacus is a lot harder than Snake or Falco

I had to change my controls just to be able to Sheik's

That's what I'm saying.

 

[Dekillsage]

It's not hard lol. If you play sheik you can do it consistently and if you can't then drop sheik or keep practicing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sheik's Dacus is a tighter window but after trying to do Street Fighter links every day for a week you'll come back and giggle at the fact that you ever found it hard

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you play sheik y

Which hardly anyone does lol

 

[Dekillsage]

Well its a good thing that I main sheik then!!!!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Don't you use Snake?

 

[Dekillsage]

nooooooooooooooooope

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Don't you use Snake?

Everyone uses Sheik

Gosh didn't you know that?

 

[FourStar]

#freesheik

 

[Tesh]

DACUS is super easy on wiichuck. High level players shouldn't have trouble doing it at any time with GC either though. Illmatic's sheik is a beast with DACUS.