Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[SaxDude93]

Ike maybe slow as hell but he's better than mostly people think. =/ His AAA mini combo is up there with Snake's even Snake's is much better.

And yes I've played with a good Ike. If anything he deserves a spot a being a I guess a "top" character even though he does belong probably in high-low to top-mid tier.

NSS can rip you a new one on why Ike is low tier. I'm too lazy to find the argument.

 

[DarkKnight077]

NSS can rip you a new one on why Ike is low tier. I'm too lazy to find the argument.

I know he's was a fan favorite during in the beginning. And mostly everyone knows how to approach. Plus anyone faster can own him right?

But.....wasn't DDD a fan favorite way in the beginning too? And mostly everyone knows how to approach him as well?

 

[Kitamerby]

I've figured out how to please everyone!

Top Tier: Snake
High Tier: Everyone but snake.
Mid Tier: N/A
Low Tier: N/A
Bottom Tier: N/A

 

[SaxDude93]

I've figured out how to please everyone!

Top Tier: Snake
High Tier: Everyone but snake.
Mid Tier: N/A
Low Tier: N/A
Bottom Tier: N/A

MK mainers will argue you there.

 

[Iachoku]

It's most definately not a legitamate arguement, espiacially if it's the only one you bring up.

I say otherwise. Someone who's only played as any given character a handful of times couldn't possibly have a grasp on them the way a more experienced player would. Especially with characters with higher learning curves.
I guess it depends on how you present this argument. If it's the only line you use and you fail to elaborate on it, then yeah, it's horse s***, but if you explain yourself a little, then it can hold some water. I suppose.

In any case, Sonic should be god tier.
I kid, I kid, don't worry folks.
*is not THAT much of a Sonic fanboy*

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm sorry, I just can't take anyone seriously who thinks Ike is a "Top" character.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Since I have horrible Multiquoting skills, I'll have to break up my counter arguement to parallel yours

Well sorry, most mainers of Sonic I see here and on Gamefaqs are VERY delusional, so I have a tendency to take them less than seriously

You lose credibility once you start insulting people.
Or at least showing your stupidity.

Here's a few I would name for bad Sonic matchups
Both DKs

Diddy yes.
DOnkey no.

Sonic is neutral against Donkey for the following reasons.
Mainly due to his ability to punish Sonic can control the spacing beyond Donkey Kong. He can quickly get up close and quickly escape. If Sonkey Kong does land a hit Sonic can easily use his spring to escape.
By controlling spacing it will be difficult for Donkey Kong to catch a hold of Sonic. His large size also makes t much easier for Sonic to combo him and sonic can also double Fair Donkey off the stage without worry.

Due to Donkey Kong
s large arms though sonic has to play defensively while controlling spacing. He must also be careful when attacking Donkey kong directly because Donkey Kong's ground game far excels that of Sonic. If Sonic plays defensively and forces his opponent into making amistake,Sonic can punish Donkey repeatedly but can't linger since one hit from Donkey can easily kill him and the quick speed of Donkey's OverB can lead Sonic in for a nasty Punch in the face.

GW

Agreed

Marth

I mentioned him earlier.

Kirby

Agreed.

Samus

No.Just no.

pit

Neutral.
Pit has no glaring advantages over SOnic.

Olimar

all of Sonic's attacks remove pikmin from his body and the fact that Sonic is excellent at getting close means olimar will have an issue if he lets Sonic get too close.
There is also the fac tthat onc Sonic gets Olimar off the stage Olimar is going to be hard pressed to recover.

ROB

agreed

TL

Not a bad matchup I feel more towards the neutralside.
Mainly because sonic gets through projectile spam.
The whole point for Sonic is mainly to get TL above him or off the stage.
He'll hve to rely mainly on his grab game due to his good dash grab range and he has to rely on his Uair to get early kills(though this is said for everyone)
A dthrow to a Fair off the stage will kill TL.
A semispike Dair will kill him.
TL will have to mainly stay on the ground since Sonic cannot do well on the ground.
While TL does well in the air it isn't to his obvious advantage and a small mistake can lead to TL being in negative airspace where Sonic is at his best and TL is at a ddefinite disadvantage.

Wario

Agreed

Falco

7:3 in Falco's

Possibly Link

No. Just no. Seriously.

Whether you read them as minor disadvantages or hard counters, that's a decently big list

That leaves 10 (counting wolf and Luigi whom you missed) disadvantages some of which are minor in which Sonic can win depending on how he capitalizes ont he mistakes.
That is littleless than 1/3 of the cast.

Shall I list Bowser's matchup now?
Who is mid tier and has more than 1/2 of the matchups in his disadvantage,most of which are his worst.
In fact a good amount of the cast has a disadvantage with slightly more or less than 1/3rd of the list.
Yet Sonic still ends up low tier?
Especially when there are characters in mid tier who haven't done so well in the tournaments?

First off, MK has kill moves, and he doesn't even need them for the most part because he can simply chase you off the stage to your doom. Like said SEVERAL times in this topic, Anything can kill you from 2 feet awat from the boundry line. That, and He racks up damage at a MUCH faster rate than just about everyone else.

Riiight. MK doesn't rely on chasing to kill his aerial speed is lesser than Sonic's (I think not too sure) and makes him less able to do so.
His Fair and Bair do not kill at 100% when off the stage due to DI while Sonic's can kill even with DI. (Due to Sonic'smore horizontal trajectory in his Fair rather than knockback, an error on my part)

While he can chase more often than not it is in his benefit not to do so.
His main kills come from
Fsmash, Dsmash,^B.
All of which rely on him being at the edge of the stage.

Well Ganon has a good/Great Tech chase, Ganoncide, one of the best spikes in the game, and okay aerials. Why is he still considered bottom? Because just about everything else about him is bad. The same concept applies to Sonic here. BTW, Bowser has quite a few relatively quick moves, potent smashes, Bowsercide,Heavy which can allow for you to make mistakes and not get punished too easily, and has a relatively good time racking up damage

ganoncide=bad It is only viable when he is a stock ahead.
Ganon does not have a good great tech chase.
Sonic can chase down opponents who are aerial.
Ganandorf cannot.
In fact Ganandorf has a hard time chasing ground opponents who have not been flame choked.
His aerial game is on par with Snake it isn't okay its sub par.
sonic's is above.

Bowsercide cannot be done unless off the stage. WHy?
your opponent can move it back to the stage so -1 for you.
Bowser has very feq quick moves and Sonic has more.
He relies heavily on predicting the opponent.
His specials are bad overall
Heavy weight is not an advantage it often means that he can be comboed more easily. the weight doesn't allow you to make more mistakes it makes you more prone to be punished for mistakes.
This is ingoring his large size of course.

Sonic ha a good aerial game.
Good approach game.
Excellent chase ability both in air and on ground.
Has no priority.
Quick moves as well as some with average speed (Bair, Fsmash,Dsmash)
Has two moves with invincibility frames.
Has good edgeguarding has great recovering.
Can combo.
Situational smash attacks
Has a relatively average amount of bad matchup some of which are minor.
Has mostly advantages/neutralmatchups

Bowser: poor aerialgame.
poor approach game
not much for chasing
Few combos.
Has good priority.
Has a few quick moves but slow moves as well.
Cannot edge guard well.
Cannot combo well.
Has bowsercide
Situational smash attacks
Has many bad matchups a larger amount of which are major.
Few neutral/advantageous matches.

Of Bowser goes on the offensive the lack of approaches means he will get hit often. THe increase in projectile users makes this even more prominent. His large size alsomeans he will take hits that normally would not hit the average sized character so his weight doesn't compensate enough for this issue.
If he does hit the opponent he has a harder time keeping up the pressure and while he can KO early, he'll have more difficultyKOing the opponent due to his slow speed.
Move decay makes it more difficult for him to abuse his quick attacks.
If he gets the opponent off the stage he cannot continously attack the opponent due to his slow speed and low vertical ability.

As for Sonic the amount of approaches he has a greater, many of which allow him to get up close quickly, limiting the amount of damage he will take. His attacks are average in speed with a few quick ones (namely Ftilt, Fair, Nair etc). The abuse of quick attacks is not an issue since the average speed of his other attacks isn't asmuch an issue if they were the speed of bowser's.
He has difficulty KOing and difficulty outprioritizing the enemy.
however the amount of damage he can inflict makes up for this as well as his ability to edge guard opponents. Worst case scenario he oly injurs the opponent on their way back to the stage. His spring allows him to quickly follow up any attacks that send the opponent up even when off the stage.

Please tellme as to why Bowser is mid tier despite the inability to approach, combo, and edge guard as well as large amount of disadvantages.

Now I'm not saying I agree that you should switch mains because one who plays similar to another is in a highter, but Sonic's learning curve is not nearly as high as you think.

wut?

To play a proper MK takes more than just spamming Tornados, it's actually harder than learning Sonic who isn't that hard to learn at all.

WTF?
You just lost a massive amount of credibility when you typed that out.

And did you honestly just say that his Spring and Homing attacks KO at normal or even relatively high Brawl killing percents?

He meant gimping.

Dsmash doesn't kill that well at all.

Just like MK's Dsmash they have to be at the far side of the arena.
Seriously use the character.
The reason it doens't "Kill" well is because just like DDD's Fsmash it comes out slowly and lags at the end.
You can also increase its range but ts more difficult.

The only one you got even close to right was his Fsmash, and that's easily telegraphed by skilled players.

Um no?
Fsmash comes out as fast as Mario's Fsmash.
That's average not easily telegraphed.
Not to mention stutter stepping improves the range and makes it more viable in usage.

Who hasys it's all about the power, espiacially in ANY conversation concerning Sonic.

Coming from a guy who just said that Sonic has a mslal learning curve compared to MK.
Or that his Dsmash doesn't kill well.

 

[Ratherion]

So here's my question. The general rule is that no matter how good you are with a character or how many games you win, it doesn't change his tier position. Right?

Well then why is it that a significant factor in teir lists is competitive winnings?

 

[DarkKnight077]

I'm sorry, I just can't take anyone seriously who thinks Ike is a "Top" character.

Well fine then, I'll put him in the top of the low tier then. He's isn't that bad though.

And plus how does MK have a higher learning curve than Sonic?

I've picked him up and wasn't that terrible with him. Of course I didn't Spam B or use AAAAA. All the time.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Why Ike sucks.

I'm sick of noobs coming into this board and other boards complaining about how overpowered this guy is when the player doesn't know how to shield or dodge. It's sad how such an underpowered character gets all this undeserved praise.

Ike is truly the noob killer of brawl. He's so predictable, he's to slow and his recover is garbage. He's got his range and power but all of his good killing moves are also his good damage moves(ftilt bair). This is a serious problem because he's never gonna kill with his fsmash, usmash, dair, dtilt and dsmash. Those moves are simply to slow or/and situational. This is a problem because Ike's ftilt is his best combat move and killer so the damage and knockback reduction rule will affect him greatly.

This also applies to his bair but it's somewhat predictable because he's jumping to accomplish this move. His other aerials are also predictable and easy to avoid because they're not as fast or as strong as his bair. Shield pressuring also doesn't apply to Ike because he's even to slow for that! It's quite sad the way Ike can't chase, combo and edge guard well because he's to slow and most characters can stall easily to counter shield pressuring tactics.

His edge guarding sucks because he has horrible aerial DI and his moves are predictable and will be air dodged. His moves are all mediocre as well. B: to predictable and easy to avoid. B>redictable as an attack and bad as a recovery move. B^:Spamming doesn't work because you can just shield and grab. When your above him you can simply air dodge. As a recovery move it's atrocious. His counter is the worst counter in the game and is just an overall bad move. Let's face it Ike doesn't even have good grabs because they're all weak and can't combo. Ike has absolutely nothing going for him. No grab game, bad Bmoves, bad recovery and isn't heavy enough to contemplate for it, bad recovery and a surprising amount of trouble killing due to slowness, predictable and damage claus.

PS:His jab combo is decent but easy to grab Ike out of.



Edit: To answer why MK's curve is just as high if not higher than Sonic's, MK actually requires great timing and reading of your opponents moves to properly Edgeguards/WOP. His Dair chains off the stage are relatively hard to do, and knowing how and when to use the Tornado properly instead of spamming and leaving yourself wide open. Perfecting Dimensional Edgeguards takes decent knowledge of every stage you play on. Knowing which characters you can't chase as aggresively (Trying to WOP a Ganon is just asking to get Ganoncided) off the stage, Mastering how Up-B's launching trajectory from different angles of the frame animation make him far from a "Noob" character aside from Tornado spammers.

 

[SaxDude93]

You lose credibility once you start insulting people.
Or at least showing your stupidity.

Diddy yes.
DOnkey no.

Sonic is neutral against Donkey for the following reasons.
Mainly due to his ability to punish Sonic can control the spacing beyond Donkey Kong. He can quickly get up close and quickly escape. If Sonkey Kong does land a hit Sonic can easily use his spring to escape.
By controlling spacing it will be difficult for Donkey Kong to catch a hold of Sonic. His large size also makes t much easier for Sonic to combo him and sonic can also double Fair Donkey off the stage without worry.

Due to Donkey Kong
s large arms though sonic has to play defensively while controlling spacing. He must also be careful when attacking Donkey kong directly because Donkey Kong's ground game far excels that of Sonic. If Sonic plays defensively and forces his opponent into making amistake,Sonic can punish Donkey repeatedly but can't linger since one hit from Donkey can easily kill him and the quick speed of Donkey's OverB can lead Sonic in for a nasty Punch in the face.

Agreed

I mentioned him earlier.

Agreed.

No.Just no.

Neutral.
Pit has no glaring advantages over SOnic.

all of Sonic's attacks remove pikmin from his body and the fact that Sonic is excellent at getting close means olimar will have an issue if he lets Sonic get too close.
There is also the fac tthat onc Sonic gets Olimar off the stage Olimar is going to be hard pressed to recover.

agreed

Not a bad matchup I feel more towards the neutralside.
Mainly because sonic gets through projectile spam.
The whole point for Sonic is mainly to get TL above him or off the stage.
He'll hve to rely mainly on his grab game due to his good dash grab range and he has to rely on his Uair to get early kills(though this is said for everyone)
A dthrow to a Fair off the stage will kill TL.
A semispike Dair will kill him.
TL will have to mainly stay on the ground since Sonic cannot do well on the ground.
While TL does well in the air it isn't to his obvious advantage and a small mistake can lead to TL being in negative airspace where Sonic is at his best and TL is at a ddefinite disadvantage.


Agreed

7:3 in Falco's

No. Just no. Seriously.


That leaves 10 (counting wolf and Luigi whom you missed) disadvantages some of which are minor in which Sonic can win depending on how he capitalizes ont he mistakes.
That is littleless than 1/3 of the cast.

Shall I list Bowser's matchup now?
Who is mid tier and has more than 1/2 of the matchups in his disadvantage,most of which are his worst.
In fact a good amount of the cast has a disadvantage with slightly more or less than 1/3rd of the list.
Yet Sonic still ends up low tier?
Especially when there are characters in mid tier who haven't done so well in the tournaments?



Riiight. MK doesn't rely on chasing to kill his aerial speed is lesser than Sonic's (I think not too sure) and makes him less able to do so.
His Fair and Bair do not kill at 100% when off the stage due to DI while Sonic's can kill even with DI. (Due to Sonic'smore horizontal trajectory in his Fair rather than knockback, an error on my part)

While he can chase more often than not it is in his benefit not to do so.
His main kills come from
Fsmash, Dsmash,^B.
All of which rely on him being at the edge of the stage.


ganoncide=bad It is only viable when he is a stock ahead.
Ganon does not have a good great tech chase.
Sonic can chase down opponents who are aerial.
Ganandorf cannot.
In fact Ganandorf has a hard time chasing ground opponents who have not been flame choked.
His aerial game is on par with Snake it isn't okay its sub par.
sonic's is above.

Bowsercide cannot be done unless off the stage. WHy?
your opponent can move it back to the stage so -1 for you.
Bowser has very feq quick moves and Sonic has more.
He relies heavily on predicting the opponent.
His specials are bad overall
Heavy weight is not an advantage it often means that he can be comboed more easily. the weight doesn't allow you to make more mistakes it makes you more prone to be punished for mistakes.
This is ingoring his large size of course.

Sonic ha a good aerial game.
Good approach game.
Excellent chase ability both in air and on ground.
Has no priority.
Quick moves as well as some with average speed (Bair, Fsmash,Dsmash)F-Smash...Fast? lol.
Has two moves with invincibility frames.
Has good edgeguarding has great recovering.
Can combo.
Situational smash attacks
Has a relatively average amount of bad matchup some of which are minor.
Has mostly advantages/neutralmatchups
Weak

Bowser: poor aerialgame.
poor approach game
not much for chasing
Few combos.
Has good priority.
Has a few quick moves but slow moves as well.
Cannot edge guard well.
Cannot combo well.
Has bowsercide
Situational smash attacks
Has many bad matchups a larger amount of which are major.
Few neutral/advantageous matches.
Heavy

Of Bowser goes on the offensive the lack of approaches means he will get hit often. THe increase in projectile users makes this even more prominent. His large size alsomeans he will take hits that normally would not hit the average sized character so his weight doesn't compensate enough for this issue.
If he does hit the opponent he has a harder time keeping up the pressure and while he can KO early, he'll have more difficultyKOing the opponent due to his slow speed.
Move decay makes it more difficult for him to abuse his quick attacks.
If he gets the opponent off the stage he cannot continously attack the opponent due to his slow speed and low vertical ability.

As for Sonic the amount of approaches he has a greater, many of which allow him to get up close quickly, limiting the amount of damage he will take. His attacks are average in speed with a few quick ones (namely Ftilt, Fair, Nair etc). The abuse of quick attacks is not an issue since the average speed of his other attacks isn't asmuch an issue if they were the speed of bowser's.
He has difficulty KOing and difficulty outprioritizing the enemy.
however the amount of damage he can inflict makes up for this as well as his ability to edge guard opponents. Worst case scenario he oly injurs the opponent on their way back to the stage. His spring allows him to quickly follow up any attacks that send the opponent up even when off the stage.

Please tellme as to why Bowser is mid tier despite the inability to approach, combo, and edge guard as well as large amount of disadvantages.

What we need is some BDawg to clear everything up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nair=advancing move
Fair=pressure
Dair=never used eruption is used instead .

His recovery needs to be better just like Link's.
Least he can DI up and side to the arena quickly link is well, boned.


Sonic has low not no priority.

His Nair has some priority as does his Uair, Utilt and Usmash (has a lot of priority though some believe sit has invincibility frames.)

by average speed I was referring to his Smashes. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair.

Please read my post properly.

Also quote properly seeing a wall of text and then a response thats 2 lines long is annoying.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

So here's my question. The general rule is that no matter how good you are with a character or how many games you win, it doesn't change his tier position. Right?

Well then why is it that a significant factor in teir lists is competitive winnings?

There is a difference between Casual winning and Tourney winnings.



No one could really give a **** about Casual winning stats, because they don't apply to the Tier lists. Tournament winnings are, because Tier lists are made for those people.

 

[DarkKnight077]

*Coughs*

Bowser is all about edgeguarding. ><

That's all he does.

Edit: Well I still don't MK has that much of a learning curve though. Maybe it's just me. I'm off to play some friendlies.

 

[flyingemus]

Tiers, take II. I posted edition one about 30 pages back and made some changes based on suggestions.

Top Tier
Snake – No one's arguing this.
Meta-Knight – See above.
Marth – He's just as great as he was in Melee. What he now lacks in speed he makes up for in power.
Mr. Game and Watch – Improved recovery, improved killing power, faster, better shield. G-Dub makes up for his sloppy performance last time around.
Falco – One of the most effective projectile spams, even though it can be ducked by a few characters. His new reflector is both good and bad for him, but it helps eliminate choices for approaching characters. His recovery is no longer terrible since no one falls as fast.
ROB – Good projectiles but they must be charged so he can't spam that effectively. Some of his moves come out fairly slowly, especially some aerials. His recovery, however, is godly and allows him to WOP. A great counter for many characters.

High Tier
Pikachu – His usmash was nerfed, but d-smash stabs shields, racks up damage, and sends the opponent up for a thunder, which was also buffed. His projectile is still very useful on many stages, sideB for recovery now reflects many projectiles, and upB sweetspots almost instantly, not to mention that it can cancel off the ground. His aerials seem a bit less useful though.
Toon Link – Good at linking attacks and great at camping with what's likely the best projectile spam in the game. He’s fast and still has KO power, but he's really quick to die and his recovery and grabs are lackluster.
Wolf – His blaster is pretty annoying, he’s powerful with not that big of a speed loss, and his multi-hit attacks lessen the loss in damage for spammed moves. However, he’s the fastest faller in the game and has a poor recovery that doesn’t even sweetspot the edge.
Ice Climbers – Chain grabs are still just as good. The AI also works much better on Nana, so she doesn’t die as easily. Plus, both Climbers can now grab the edge. IC’s are very strong for such light characters, and Popo can survive by himself more easily now.
Luigi – His recovery is vastly improved with the Luigi Tornado, making his slightly odd combination of sideB and upB more doable. His fireballs take longer to come out but most of his moves have little to no windup lag. However, his floaty nature makes him somewhat hard to control.
King Dedede – Chain grabs again, plus annoying Waddle Dees. He's the hardest character to kill, since he's heavy, he has multiple jumps, and his upB goes very high. His stronger, slower moves are balanced by his disjoint and quick tilts. However, many faster characters can destroy him since he doesn’t have a great defensive strategy.
Bowser – His tilts are actually pretty fast, especially for a slow character. Whirling Fortress still works wonders on light characters that happen to be annoying him. Bowserciding is always an easy-to-pull-off strategy should he find himself in a tough situation or one stock up.
Kirby – Buffed hardcore. He lost his Kirbycide throws, but his aerial hammer is much better and he can still inhale to kill himself or stick his opponent underneath the stage. No projectile, but he can steal his opponent's to cancel it out. Lightweight, but with a good recovery.

Mid Tier
Wario – He’s a very unpredictable character, despite the fact that he’s a dork. His recovery, while it takes forever and is fairly gimpable, is still great. He also lasts forever, and he’s been dominating tournaments.
Donkey Kong – Much like Bowser, he's improved in most aspects. His range is still great, his speed has been upped, and DK-cides are always an option, as are cargo throws. It’s a bit of overkill with a billion spikes, and his vertical recovery is still garbage, but he’s better off than he was last time.
Lucario – This guy has pretty good range on most of his attacks, and a decent projectile even when it's not charged. His pseudo-SHUFFL is always a good thing, and his damage multipliers really help him against characters with lower KO power.
Pit – He has some odd tilts and smashes, but performs pretty well in close range. His projectile is very irritating but does pretty lackluster damage. His recovery is decent when used correctly but can be cancelled fairly easily.
Zelda – Din’s Fire can juggle and is overall a great projectile for edgeguarding, as it forces opponents to airdodge or get *****. Her smashes and aerials have been buffed, and she has a lot of great matchups. However, she’s still light and her recovery is predictable.
Olimar - People were really afraid of this guy early on, but he's so light and his recovery is so awful that there's little to worry about. He annhilates heavy or large characters but can't do a thing about anyone faster than him.
Fox – Not as good as he used to be, but you don't see many people crying about it. He definitely has been nerfed in many respects, but he still has his place to shine.
Diddy Kong – He’s fast and banana-ful, but his recovery must be charged, which is bad against good spikers, especially since he’s so light. His projectile is pretty bad, and 'naners can be used against him. Not as great as people thought initially.
Zero Suit Samus – She’s good in a lot of respects, but her recovery is gimpable even with her third jump, plus her projectile is pretty crappy. Her smash attacks seem gimmicky, and lots of moves are pretty pointless. Good range and fast, but extremely weak and her recovery doesn’t help.
Lucas – Great projectile spam, great edgeguarding with upB, a somewhat gimpable recovery, creepy magnet tricks. He would be in high tier, but he gets chaingrabbed. He might end up even lower.
Yoshi – Better than last time, admit it. His recovery is definitely helped by his newer upB, and his eggs seem to be more useful this time around. The loss of DJC actually helps him in many cases.However, he's still not good enough to get higher than bottom of mid tier.

Low Tier
Mario - Cape isn't as good, FLUDD is on the verge of useless, he can't KO that well. He is slightly redeemed by his ledgeguarding and good approach. He’s not speedy but certainly not slow. Being the all-around character just doesn’t seem to be good enough.
Pokemon Trainer – His Pokemon don't balance out that well, and excel in different parts of the game while severely lacking in others. The fatigue system ends up screwing him over when he has to switch to get a KO. Fun to use, but not that great.
Ike – He’s powerful but very slow. The fact that he was popular very early on makes people know exactly how to beat him. Almost anyone faster than him can beat him easily.
Sonic - Fast runner, slow attacks. Something's wrong here. He does have a good approach, and he can move around the stage incredibly quickly. His recovery is good, but it’s somewhat gimpable. Only people who are willing to put in lots of time should bother with this guy.
Samus – Nerfed. Her smash attacks aren't as good and her missile seems slower. Her spike is still hard to hit with, and she doesn’t have a great way to deal with opponents above her.
Sheik – Triple-nerf. She has very little of what she had back in Melee, so people can find a new most annoying character now. How the mighty have fallen.
Link – This guy just doesn’t deserve to be this bad. Somewhat powerful, but his sluggishness makes him much less playable. His boomerang doesn’t hit on the way back, his arrows don’t go as far as Toon Link’s, and his horizontal recovery is pretty bad.
Ness - He gets chaingrabbed even worse than Lucas, and has fewer redeeming qualities. Although he has a few good matchups, he isn’t much better than he was in Melee. Shame.
Peach - Nothing compared to what she once was. D-smash isn’t that good, and recovery seems nerfed. She retains her lightness and is KO’ed extremely easily.

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff - Nerfed hard. Rest doesn't kill as early, WOP isn't as impressive since more characters can do it now, plus where most characters die at higher percentages in this game, Jiggz just seemed to stay at the same pitiful death rate.
Ganondorf – He runs slower, attacks slower, and recovers just as badly as he did in Melee. Ganoncide is his only improvement, everything else has gotten way worse.
Captain Falcon - Captain Falcon can't do much of anything this time around. Poor approach, lackluster recovery, no killer knee... he's got it bad. He also rounds out the fact that the bottom tier is made up of Melee’s high tier.


Suggestions are appreciated.

I pretty much agree with this entire list. Though whoever said it was righ, Bowser down a bit, and Olimar up. I also don't know if DK should be that high. And is Marth really that great? Cuz I dont see it.

I personally don't like Metaknight. He has good attacks to get % up, but has no killing power. Plus all of his specials leave him helpless.

 

[SaxDude93]

Nair=advancing move
Fair=pressure
Dair=never used eruption is used instead .

His recovery needs to be better just like Link's.
Least he can DI up and side to the arena quickly link is well, boned.


Sonic has low not no priority.

His Nair has some priority as does his Uair, Utilt and Usmash (has a lot of priority though some believe sit has invincibility frames.)

by average speed I was referring to his Smashes. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair.

Please read my post properly.

Also quote properly seeing a wall of text and then a response thats 2 lines long is annoying.

Actually, the only thing I changed was the Weak/Heavy thing. You said yourself, Sonic has no priority. I just bolded it, to point it out.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Meh I don't think Bowser does edge guarding too well.
When I use him I usually have to rely on attacking my opponent within the arena since they can bypass me. I can ledge guard but the fact that the majority of the cast has a good recovery makes this difficult.

I did? Hmm could ahve sworn I put weak.
Mainly because of the moves I listed.

Soz.

 

[Ratherion]

There is a difference between Casual winning and Tourney winnings.

No one could really give a **** about Casual winning stats, because they don't apply to the Tier lists. Tournament winnings are, because Tier lists are made for those people.

That's not what I'm talking about.

What people are saying is "MK and Snake most often win competitive tournies, therefore it helps their teir position."

When, in fact, it is the skill of the player that places well in the challenge, not the character itself.

Therefore shouldn't tournament rankings be ignored due to the fact that they depend heavily on player skill?

Which as earlier stated shouldn't affect teir placement?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I pretty much agree with this entire list. Though whoever said it was righ, Bowser down a bit, and Olimar up. I also don't know if DK should be that high. And is Marth really that great? Cuz I dont see it.

I personally don't like Metaknight. He has good attacks to get % up, but has no killing power. Plus all of his specials leave him helpless.

You contradicted yourself. If you truly took into account that Meta can get to 150% in the same time frame others get to 100%, then you would realize he not only kills just fine, he has a relatively easy time KOing.


And like said before, Anything kills 2 feet away from the boundry. MK is like a buffed Jigglypuff with a Sword and superb ground game instead of a crappy one. His edgeguarding tools and capabilites are unmatched, bar none.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nigerian why do you ignore my post?

As for Ratherion.
Tournaments do address tiers because they are literal results of high level play.
Current tournament cannot necessarily be relied upon because its more of a popularity contest.

It's why the high and top are very clearly defined but mid and lower tend to get muggy.

 

[Ratherion]

Alright, that's an answer I can make some sense of.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

That's not what I'm talking about.

What people are saying is "MK and Snake most often win competitive tournies, therefore it helps their teir position."

When, in fact, it is the skill of the player that places well in the challenge, not the character itself.

Therefore shouldn't tournament rankings be ignored due to the fact that they depend heavily on player skill?

Which as earlier stated shouldn't affect teir placement?

Ah, now I see.


Well you have to take into account most major and mid-major tournies have players who are VERY close in skill level to the point where it can go either way. The Tier list complies the data from all things like this and who won with who with what characters, and add that to the matchups and Current percieved Metagame potential, which espiacially helps balance it out more from being overly biased to one statistic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nigerian is ignoring me. =(

 

[SaxDude93]

Nigerian is ignoring me. =(

Maybe because his multiquoting skills suck and he likes other posts better. Q.E.D.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Hold up I'm busy typing it, sheesh




Edit: Screw it, I'm too bad at Multiquoting to respond to that, I'm going to Play TF2 and deal with it later.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*cries in saxdudes arms*


Its not hard to multiquote.
Just copy

and just paste it at the beginning of every part you wish to reply too.

 

[SaxDude93]

AWW HELL NAW

*kicks ShadowLink84 in the nuts*

 

[omegablackmage]

i think dk is probably at least high, if not upper, extremely underrated. Incredible reach, great speed, good grab game, SA on the giant punch, very heavy, and also really strong. Only weak point is his recovery.

 

[Napilopez]

Yea, I'm biased beinga Sonic main, but Sonic has tons of hidden Invincibility frames and Uber priority. Uair has crazy priority, his Usmash has crazy priority on some frames, SideB has invincibility frames, as does UpB. I actually find priority to be a near non issue when im using Sonic except for a few little times, because I usually use the right attacks at te right time. Not saying this makes up for his flaws, but I don't have a prob with it. Also, I find Sonics playstyle is variable enough to have very few "tough" matchups IMO. Fighting the spacies? Go into gimp mode, incredibly easy with sonic. Fighting D3? Go into relentless attack mode, escape chaingrabs with UpB.

 

[Browny]

There is a difference between Casual winning and Tourney winnings.



No one could really give a **** about Casual winning stats, because they don't apply to the Tier lists. Tournament winnings are, because Tier lists are made for those people.

oh please stop acting like you have any clue what youre talking about, your opinion is worth just as much as everyone else, which is pretty much nothing

 

[Ratherion]

Actually, he's been making informed posts with relative logic and intelligence.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

oh please stop acting like you have any clue what youre talking about, your opinion is worth just as much as everyone else, which is pretty much nothing

Oh please, at least I've been making half a lick of sense compared to the great majority of others posters in this topic.....

I know I know what I'm talking about because I RESEARCH this game, not only just play it. Going in depth and finding out things in this game is really fun, and combine that with the data found on this site, it's not hard to actually speak with a decent level of intelligence. You really think someone good, educated opinio like Kiwi's is on the same level as random scrub #2124054 who thinks Ike is Top Tier.


Some opinions are better than others, and in arguments/debate, you are NOT entitled. You have to prove WHY your opinion is better, not retort with crap like "OmgZ Ike is top tierz joo justsz don'st snow know to plae em rihgt. I have consistently done this in the duration I've been in this topic.

 

[WaffleJesse]

I pretty much agree with this entire list. Though whoever said it was righ, Bowser down a bit, and Olimar up. I also don't know if DK should be that high. And is Marth really that great? Cuz I dont see it.

I personally don't like Metaknight. He has good attacks to get % up, but has no killing power. Plus all of his specials leave him helpless.

Hmm...Well I must say Marth isn't that great, he's probably in high not top. As for Meta-Knight he HAS killing power, it's just that his best moves are the killing power one's so the stale move negation usually ****s that up.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

How in the world are you getting stale move negation with MK?


The Only move I think should ever get anything close to it is Fair, and that's pushing it. Just about every single move in Meta's arsenal should be used frequently every match (Fsmash is a possible exception).

Unless your spamming, Stale Move negation should be the least of anyone's worries

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

How in the world are you getting stale move negation with MK?


The Only move I think should ever get anything close to it is Fair, and that's pushings. Just about every single move in Meta's arsenal should be used frequently.

Unless your spamming, Stale Move negation should be the least of anyone's worries

I don't think you put enough weight into diminishing returns. Just missing the kill with one down smash will make it much harder for Meta Knight to kill with the move.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But Dsmash in't his only killing option isn't it?

Fsmash if you can hit it, the very first frames of Nair, Up-B, hell even UpSmash and Uair if they're high enough in the air can kill at MK's percentiles. Plenty of kill moves if you take into account the increased speed he racks up damage. He's allowed to kill at high percents and not be ridiculed for bad KO potential.

Plus, you shouldn't be too predictable and should try to buck the norm in some situations. For example, any good DDD after a sucessful CG would do a Bair WOP, but Great DDDs will keep you guessing, like Ftilts into Fsmashes or in Fair or hel even an Nair. In the high levels of competitve play, mindgames like these are essential in winning. Now not saying you should stop doing what is normally expected, just not as frequent to the point of predictability

 

[WaffleJesse]

The Fsmash does have a bit of start up lag I usually don't rely on it considering his down tilt has more range then just follow up with a dsmash. The Nair is a little hard for me to hit so I use dairs, but it is good none the less. Huh, I find the Upsmash a little forgetable don't know why. Uair is good no matter what, I agree with you there.

But for the stale move negation, if you even use one move it usually does savor it so you will always have a weaker Dsmash, etc.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But if you use other moves other than that, it brings it back up to normal power eventually. Unless you spammed it hardcore, it should be back to full power soon.


This was put in to prevent or at the very least discourage spamming a move.

 

[JhMS]

Tiers, take II. I posted edition one about 30 pages back and made some changes based on suggestions.

Top Tier
Snake – No one's arguing this.
Meta-Knight – See above.
Marth – He's just as great as he was in Melee. What he now lacks in speed he makes up for in power.
Mr. Game and Watch – Improved recovery, improved killing power, faster, better shield. G-Dub makes up for his sloppy performance last time around.
Falco – One of the most effective projectile spams, even though it can be ducked by a few characters. His new reflector is both good and bad for him, but it helps eliminate choices for approaching characters. His recovery is no longer terrible since no one falls as fast.
ROB – Good projectiles but they must be charged so he can't spam that effectively. Some of his moves come out fairly slowly, especially some aerials. His recovery, however, is godly and allows him to WOP. A great counter for many characters.

High Tier
Pikachu – His usmash was nerfed, but d-smash stabs shields, racks up damage, and sends the opponent up for a thunder, which was also buffed. His projectile is still very useful on many stages, sideB for recovery now reflects many projectiles, and upB sweetspots almost instantly, not to mention that it can cancel off the ground. His aerials seem a bit less useful though.
Toon Link – Good at linking attacks and great at camping with what's likely the best projectile spam in the game. He’s fast and still has KO power, but he's really quick to die and his recovery and grabs are lackluster.
Wolf – His blaster is pretty annoying, he’s powerful with not that big of a speed loss, and his multi-hit attacks lessen the loss in damage for spammed moves. However, he’s the fastest faller in the game and has a poor recovery that doesn’t even sweetspot the edge.
Ice Climbers – Chain grabs are still just as good. The AI also works much better on Nana, so she doesn’t die as easily. Plus, both Climbers can now grab the edge. IC’s are very strong for such light characters, and Popo can survive by himself more easily now.
Luigi – His recovery is vastly improved with the Luigi Tornado, making his slightly odd combination of sideB and upB more doable. His fireballs take longer to come out but most of his moves have little to no windup lag. However, his floaty nature makes him somewhat hard to control.
King Dedede – Chain grabs again, plus annoying Waddle Dees. He's the hardest character to kill, since he's heavy, he has multiple jumps, and his upB goes very high. His stronger, slower moves are balanced by his disjoint and quick tilts. However, many faster characters can destroy him since he doesn’t have a great defensive strategy.
Bowser – His tilts are actually pretty fast, especially for a slow character. Whirling Fortress still works wonders on light characters that happen to be annoying him. Bowserciding is always an easy-to-pull-off strategy should he find himself in a tough situation or one stock up.
Kirby – Buffed hardcore. He lost his Kirbycide throws, but his aerial hammer is much better and he can still inhale to kill himself or stick his opponent underneath the stage. No projectile, but he can steal his opponent's to cancel it out. Lightweight, but with a good recovery.

Mid Tier
Wario – He’s a very unpredictable character, despite the fact that he’s a dork. His recovery, while it takes forever and is fairly gimpable, is still great. He also lasts forever, and he’s been dominating tournaments.
Donkey Kong – Much like Bowser, he's improved in most aspects. His range is still great, his speed has been upped, and DK-cides are always an option, as are cargo throws. It’s a bit of overkill with a billion spikes, and his vertical recovery is still garbage, but he’s better off than he was last time.
Lucario – This guy has pretty good range on most of his attacks, and a decent projectile even when it's not charged. His pseudo-SHUFFL is always a good thing, and his damage multipliers really help him against characters with lower KO power.
Pit – He has some odd tilts and smashes, but performs pretty well in close range. His projectile is very irritating but does pretty lackluster damage. His recovery is decent when used correctly but can be cancelled fairly easily.
Zelda – Din’s Fire can juggle and is overall a great projectile for edgeguarding, as it forces opponents to airdodge or get *****. Her smashes and aerials have been buffed, and she has a lot of great matchups. However, she’s still light and her recovery is predictable.
Olimar - People were really afraid of this guy early on, but he's so light and his recovery is so awful that there's little to worry about. He annhilates heavy or large characters but can't do a thing about anyone faster than him.
Fox – Not as good as he used to be, but you don't see many people crying about it. He definitely has been nerfed in many respects, but he still has his place to shine.
Diddy Kong – He’s fast and banana-ful, but his recovery must be charged, which is bad against good spikers, especially since he’s so light. His projectile is pretty bad, and 'naners can be used against him. Not as great as people thought initially.
Zero Suit Samus – She’s good in a lot of respects, but her recovery is gimpable even with her third jump, plus her projectile is pretty crappy. Her smash attacks seem gimmicky, and lots of moves are pretty pointless. Good range and fast, but extremely weak and her recovery doesn’t help.
Lucas – Great projectile spam, great edgeguarding with upB, a somewhat gimpable recovery, creepy magnet tricks. He would be in high tier, but he gets chaingrabbed. He might end up even lower.
Yoshi – Better than last time, admit it. His recovery is definitely helped by his newer upB, and his eggs seem to be more useful this time around. The loss of DJC actually helps him in many cases.However, he's still not good enough to get higher than bottom of mid tier.

Low Tier
Mario - Cape isn't as good, FLUDD is on the verge of useless, he can't KO that well. He is slightly redeemed by his ledgeguarding and good approach. He’s not speedy but certainly not slow. Being the all-around character just doesn’t seem to be good enough.
Pokemon Trainer – His Pokemon don't balance out that well, and excel in different parts of the game while severely lacking in others. The fatigue system ends up screwing him over when he has to switch to get a KO. Fun to use, but not that great.
Ike – He’s powerful but very slow. The fact that he was popular very early on makes people know exactly how to beat him. Almost anyone faster than him can beat him easily.
Sonic - Fast runner, slow attacks. Something's wrong here. He does have a good approach, and he can move around the stage incredibly quickly. His recovery is good, but it’s somewhat gimpable. Only people who are willing to put in lots of time should bother with this guy.
Samus – Nerfed. Her smash attacks aren't as good and her missile seems slower. Her spike is still hard to hit with, and she doesn’t have a great way to deal with opponents above her.
Sheik – Triple-nerf. She has very little of what she had back in Melee, so people can find a new most annoying character now. How the mighty have fallen.
Link – This guy just doesn’t deserve to be this bad. Somewhat powerful, but his sluggishness makes him much less playable. His boomerang doesn’t hit on the way back, his arrows don’t go as far as Toon Link’s, and his horizontal recovery is pretty bad.
Ness - He gets chaingrabbed even worse than Lucas, and has fewer redeeming qualities. Although he has a few good matchups, he isn’t much better than he was in Melee. Shame.
Peach - Nothing compared to what she once was. D-smash isn’t that good, and recovery seems nerfed. She retains her lightness and is KO’ed extremely easily.

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff - Nerfed hard. Rest doesn't kill as early, WOP isn't as impressive since more characters can do it now, plus where most characters die at higher percentages in this game, Jiggz just seemed to stay at the same pitiful death rate.
Ganondorf – He runs slower, attacks slower, and recovers just as badly as he did in Melee. Ganoncide is his only improvement, everything else has gotten way worse.
Captain Falcon - Captain Falcon can't do much of anything this time around. Poor approach, lackluster recovery, no killer knee... he's got it bad. He also rounds out the fact that the bottom tier is made up of Melee’s high tier.


Suggestions are appreciated.

Good,but I disagree in some parts:
*Wario should be in high tier,he should take Luigis spot.Wario is doing great at torunaments.
*Olimar higher,in Bowsers spot and Bowser below Zamus.
*I think Diddy is high tier material and Kirby Mid tier.
Well,thats my opinion.

 

[Gindler]

Hmmm, why is everyone saying wario's placing well in tournaments? Around here It's all about snake, MK, and in one case pit. and keep in mind the people around here aren't any push over. and yes we have some wario mains so it's not that there aren't any.