Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

duly noted

all characters without swords or projectiles have no approaches

That's a relatively small list....

CF
Sonic
Wario (Who can approach)
DK
Jiggs
Ganon (Down Taunt?)

 

[BDawgPHD]

That's a relatively small list....

CF
Sonic
Wario (Who can approach)
DK
Jiggs
Ganon (Down Taunt?)

DK DOES have an approach, it's called "walk up to people and use your beastly-ranged tilts/jabs until they try to use moves, then f*** them up." Other than that, no, he doesn't have a really sound approach, save maybe a bair approach against some characters, since its range might protect DK from shield-grabbing, although that's theory and I bet it won't actually work.

 

[Pieisthebest]

;>_>

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper-High Tier:
Falco
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Mr. Game & Watch

Lower-High Tier:
Dedede
Pit
Marth
Zelda
Fox
Pikmin & Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Wario

Upper-Middle Tier:
Ice climbers
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Ike

Lower-Middle Tier:
Lucario
Peach
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Yoshi
Ness

Upper-Low Tier:
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Samus

Bottom-Low Tier:
Sonic
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

;>_>

God Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper-High Tier:
Falco
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Mr. Game & Watch

Lower-High Tier:
Dedede
Pit
Marth
Zelda
Fox
Pikmin & Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Wario

Upper-Middle Tier:
Ice climbers
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Ike

Lower-Middle Tier:
Lucario
Peach
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Yoshi
Ness

Upper-Low Tier:
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Samus

Bottom-Low Tier:
Sonic
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Meh, 5.5/10.

 

[St. Viers]

Um Lucas/Bowser/G&W are lower than I expected. could you explain?

Also, as emblem lord pointed out earlier in the thread, "god tier" has its own definition, which no character in brawl fits. Why not top tier?

 

[VersatileBJN]

Pie's list is very good.

Lucas should be higher, ICs lower(if their chain is being banned as much as people say).

Zelda is good, but not that good. Low high tier with Ike and company I feel.

Good list overall though.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

;>_>

God Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper-High Tier:
Falco
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Mr. Game & Watch

Lower-High Tier:
Dedede
Pit
Marth
Zelda
Fox
Pikmin & Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Wario

Upper-Middle Tier:
Ice climbers
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Ike

Lower-Middle Tier:
Lucario
Peach
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Yoshi
Ness

Upper-Low Tier:
Lucas
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Samus

Bottom-Low Tier:
Sonic
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Wow that tier list sure has a lot of divisions o.0. Marth's placement is way to low. His range overall is incredible, all of his moves are useable, has powerful finishers, his grabs may not be that great but his grab range compensates for that. Marth should go above Pikachu. G&W's placement, IMO, is too low. His down b absorbs projectiles and gives him a very powerful attack. His priority is very good, his aerials are great, his attacks stay out for a long time which can limit other characters approaching option. and his recovery is superb. Move him above Falco. Okay the placement of Ike is too high. As people mentioned before as other characters get better he will get worse. It also doesn't help that many people already know how to fight him since he was so popular in the beginning. Anyone who is faster then Ike already has an advantage over him. Ike should move underneath Lucas. Bowsers placement is lower then wat i would have said. I'd say move switch him with Ness. Sonic is not a great character, but he is definitely not bottom tier. He has a good aerial game, decent chasing game, and recovery gimps people (spring). He should go up to low tierabove samus because he has poor priority, poor range, average attack speed, and no reliable kill moves. That is my rant. I'm just far too lazy to right anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic is a decent character, he can give soem characters trouble, but lack of priority and kill power hurt him so much. Lets say you are fighting, say, yoshi (just as an example because its one of the matchups sonic actually does well in). Yoshi cant punish sonic OOS, so sonic is running circles around him and gets him to 120% while sonic is at 80. Now what?. Sonic can pretty much only kill with fsmash, bair, and to an extent, usmash, and they are all easy to see if u are trying to use those moves. So while yoshi survives to 180, sonic dies at around 120. This is just an example, its not completely true (just my experiences with sonic, the numbers arent correct).

I think peach has a lot of undiscovered potential. She has some of the best aerial priority and maneuverabilty in the game, her fair autocancels, and leads to jabs, her dair can shield stab and lead to nairs, bairs have unreal priority, her turnip game, though not as strong, is still very good due to all of the new techs that revolve around it. Her ftilt has great range and good knockback, her utilt is very good for opponents above u. I dont play peach, but ive seen very good peach players and heard their arguments for peach's tier position and i agree with them.

 

[St. Viers]

^^I'd say that peach will rise over time, but as I don't know, I can't let it affect me >_>

 

[BDawgPHD]

Bowser needs to be just under Ike or DK. After that, DK needs to be lower-high tier.

 

[Zm4rf]

It's curious that newer characters tend to be higher than veterans.

Where would Pit be if there was enough time to add him into SSB64?

Where would D3 and MK be if there was enough time to add them into SSBM?

 

[Ratherion]

Well, Marth and Falco pretty much stayed in the same teir.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W certainly seems better in the tiers that last time around ;]

 

[Pieisthebest]

I basicly threw this together after seeing some of the sugestions ;>_>

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper-High Tier:
Falco
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Dedede
Pit

Lower-High Tier:
Marth
Zelda
Pikmin & Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Wario
Wolf
Donkey Kong
Ice climbers

Upper-Middle Tier:
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Luigi
Ike
Lucario
Peach
Lucas
Bowser

Lower-Middle Tier:
Shiek
Mario
Jigglypuff
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Ness

Bottom Tier:
Samus
Sonic
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Ratherion]

Does the fact that Falco can CG>Reverse Boosted Grab>Laser Lock all the way across the stage (Approx 100 average damage, depends on the stage) Help his teir position any? Or is that already taken into account? I know the CG helps, but now that you can combo it into a 40-damage Lock?

 

[Pieisthebest]

G&W certainly seems better in the tiers that last time around ;]

Hell yea! ;D

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

It's curious that newer characters tend to be higher than veterans.

Where would Pit be if there was enough time to add him into SSB64?

Where would D3 and MK be if there was enough time to add them into SSBM?

I know, all the newcomers seem to be powerhouses in some fashion.


Hell the Top and High Tiers on my list, only 6 are from 64/Melee. The rest are newcomers

 

[Napilopez]

I honestly don't get some of the hostility on this thread when its supposed to be a place to discuss tiers, LOL. As long as the arguments are backed up I dont see why anyone should be called a noob. The face of the mtter is that most of us dont know all the ATs and strategies for all the characters. I'm not trying to prove sonic will be god tier, nor do I think he will be, I am simply discussing his strengths, which many if not most of you non sonic mainers dont know about. I'm sorry for temporarily bringing the topic back to Sonic, but this thread moves way too quickly. I'm simply stating my opinion because I'd like some of you to reconsider your arguments about Sonics tier placement after you actually learn some more about him.

Ok, first of all a good sonic has absolutely no problems approaching, with tons of different options for different matchups. A knowledgeable sonic for example, could approach a projectile spammer with a technique called Spinshotting which basically is a glitch which sends sonic really far and quickly at that and suddenyl your in your opponents face. Olimar could be approached with a spin dash becAuse it eats pikmin. Uair alone won't kill your opponent you use it after a uthrow, spring chase, then use uair. Your oppents does perfect DI? not an issue, chase him and punish him for it. Spring allows you to escape most combos without making yourself vulnerable to aerials becausebyou can attack and airdodge out of it. Yeah most characters dont have recovery issues now because of brawls floaty engine, but nevertheless recoveries are relative to eachither. You go and try and try to gimp a Sonic that knows what he or she js doing, good luck lol. Speaking of gimping, Sonic is a master of it, and he can do it in various ways. Using springbomb for stagespikes on FD is hilarious. Once more, although Sonic may not have any prticular advantages. Over most characters, but note have I found him to have any truly bad matchups. Of course that's justspeaking from personal experience though. Overall I think he is at worst withthe current knowledge of brawl a solid mid tier character. Who knows how things will be though if some mega brawl AT is discovered though(prays for a smashball-less Super Sonic tranformstion haha)

 

[coolbananas]

Ummmm..... Tiers are based on who wins tournaments right? How many tournaments have taken place over like these 2 months Brawls been out? 10? Just hold your horses til the official list comes. And if this is utter stupidity I am uttering (like, if this IS the official Tiers that I am posting on right now and stuff) don't flame me. I'm still drugged up. (just got out from a stomach pumping. Ate an old burrito)

 

[SaxDude93]

I honestly don't get some of the hostility on this thread when its supposed to be a place to discuss tiers, LOL. As long as the arguments are backed up I dont see why anyone should be called a noob. The face of the mtter is that most of us dont know all the ATs and strategies for all the characters. I'm not trying to prove sonic will be god tier, nor do I think he will be, I am simply discussing his strengths, which many if not most of you non sonic mainers dont know about. I'm sorry for temporarily bringing the topic back to Sonic, but this thread moves way too quickly. I'm simply stating my opinion because I'd like some of you to reconsider your arguments about Sonics tier placement after you actually learn some more about him.

Ok, first of all a good sonic has absolutely no problems approaching, with tons of different options for different matchups. A knowledgeable sonic for example, could approach a projectile spammer with a technique called Spinshotting which basically is a glitch which sends sonic really far and quickly at that and suddenyl your in your opponents face. Olimar could be approached with a spin dash becAuse it eats pikmin. Uair alone won't kill your opponent you use it after a uthrow, spring chase, then use uair. Your oppents does perfect DI? not an issue, chase him and punish him for it. Spring allows you to escape most combos without making yourself vulnerable to aerials becausebyou can attack and airdodge out of it. Yeah most characters dont have recovery issues now because of brawls floaty engine, but nevertheless recoveries are relative to eachither. You go and try and try to gimp a Sonic that knows what he or she js doing, good luck lol. Speaking of gimping, Sonic is a master of it, and he can do it in various ways. Using springbomb for stagespikes on FD is hilarious. Once more, although Sonic may not have any prticular advantages. Over most characters, but note have I found him to have any truly bad matchups. Of course that's justspeaking from personal experience though. Overall I think he is at worst withthe current knowledge of brawl a solid mid tier character. Who knows how things will be though if some mega brawl AT is discovered though(prays for a smashball-less Super Sonic tranformstion haha)

We were discussing Kirby, then you had to bring in Sonic again. That is why you were called a n00b. (I think.) And spinshotting is a glitch, and doesn't seem useful. Yes it has speed. But can it go through PK Fire, Waddle Dees, Grenades, mines, NIKITA, lasers, etc? And learn to pity smash And the other guy can use the spring also, and attack you in the air

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Your so wrong it's not even funny....

From Ankoku's topic alone 50 Brawl tournies have gone down, with so much more that haven't been recorded or are waiting to happen. Not only That, That's not the only factors in making the Tier list. Matchups and percieved character potential comes into effect as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Ummmm..... Tiers are based on who wins tournaments right? How many tournaments have taken place over like these 2 months Brawls been out? 10? Just hold your horses til the official list comes. And if this is utter stupidity I am uttering (like, if this IS the official Tiers that I am posting on right now and stuff) don't flame me. I'm still drugged up. (just got out from a stomach pumping. Ate an old burrito)

Tiers are partially based on tourney results. Im sure over 100 tournaments have been held over the country, i know over 50.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Any problems with this tier list? I checked and it looks like falco is actually better than I was giving him credit for, so I moved him up one, which bumped zelda down one.


Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

Very High:
Game & Watch
Marth
Falco
Zelda
Toon Link
Olimar

High:
ROB
Diddy Kong
Wario
Pit
Lucario
Lucas
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Dedede

Middle:
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Squirtle
Sheik
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Mario
Fox

Low:
Ness
Peach
Kirby
Ike
Bowser
Samus
Sonic
Ivysaur

Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Capatin Falcon

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I personally think Falco should switch places with Marth.
I think Zelda should move down a few places, but she's a contender. I doubt she'll end up there, but it isn't ridiculous to place her there. Not like putting Ike in top x_X

Ness and Lucas are too far apart. There shouldnt be a whole empty tier between them. Ness could move up or Lucas down. I think Lucas should move down.

Maybe DK up a few?
He's been looking like a pretty strong character as of late.
But Iunno.

It's pretty solid as far as tier lists go. Just maybe needs some hammering out.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hmm... well... I still find lucas better than DDD, so if I move him any farter than 2 slots, I'll take DDD with him

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Here's mine own again, reconstructed and restructed, with a few edits

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High Tier:
Toon Link
Wolf
Olimar
King Dedede
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Pit
Diddy Kong


Mid Tier:
Wario
Kirby
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Fox
ZSS
Bowser
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Ness

Low tier :
Peach
Sonic
Ike
Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik



Bottom Tier:
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon



Edit: Sorry this was a previous verison I copypasted from a different comp, I fixed it though.

 

[neomadgic]

Fox has a lot of nice combo, and he can get quick KOs with his Usmash. He also has 2 ways of getting back so edge guarding him is tough. I don't know why he's so low on the list. He should be at least high middle if anything.

DK needs to get more recognition. Here's IMO the best DK player I've seen play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvTFORlyZj8

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I like Nigerian Star Storm's. Everyone is roughly where they seem to be in most tier lists, and there isnt anything outrageous. It may need some tweaking, but it looks pretty good.

Fox is okay where he is. Well, maybe he should be moved up a little, but not by much. He's so predictable with a lot of his things. Dair? Usmash. Dair? Dsmash. Dair? Shine. Most (maybe all?) of his combos require Dair. You can shield through it all. He's not that great, to be honest. A lot of people either have a great normal recovery, or has options. Fox isn't special by having two recoveries. Edge guarding him is easy. The start-up time on his upB gives room to knock him farther away, and the path on his side B is really easy to figure out.

DK needs more respect. Stage spikes, regular spikes, range, power.... and he has some good matchups.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Hedgedawg: Olimar, Diddy, Lucario, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, Mario, and Sheik are all too high. Wolf, Luigi, DK, Fox, Kirby, Bowser, Sonic, and Yoshi are all too low, especially the last four and DK. Needs some edits but it’s getting there.

@NSS: Kirby, DK, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, and Sonic are too low. Diddy, Zelda, Ness, Mario, and Sheik are all too high. This looks familiar

 

[massimo009]

toon link = top tier

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ Hedgedawg: Olimar, Diddy, Lucario, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, Mario, and Sheik are all too high. Wolf, Luigi, DK, Fox, Kirby, Bowser, Sonic, and Yoshi are all too low, especially the last four and DK. Needs some edits but it’s getting there.

I took some of what you said, but I still think that olimar is great despite the gimpable recovery. And yoshi... well quite simply he just doesn't do better than the grand majority of the cast.

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

Very High:
Game & Watch
Marth
Falco
Zelda
Toon Link
Olimar

High:
ROB
Wario
Pikachu
Pit
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Wolf
Lucas

Middle:
Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Pokemon Trainer
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
Charizard
Sheik
Mario
Fox

Low:
Ness
Peach
Kirby
Ike
Sonic
Bowser
Samus
Ivysaur

Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Capatin Falcon

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Care to Explain why Massimo?


Also, I don't quite think DK could go any higher than the people above him, there is some very good competition in Lucario, Fox, and Wario. I'm also not quite sure if Kirby is High Tier, espiacially with Wario in his way. Sheik is okay, altough she tends to flutctuate from Low-Low and Low-High. I think Mario is okay, not as good as some say, but definately not too bad. Yoshi's underrated, but to see if He's Mid Tier material is a wait and see.

Remember, My list is based on Percieved character potential, Tourney outings, and Matchups. Not many of us have much control on 1 of them, and the other is basicially set in stone. The only place your arguement would help is in the PCP section, and possibly the Matchups if you go to the matchup chart and fix said matchups.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Hedgedawg: I still think Zelda's too high, but I'm sure you won't change that, so I'll let it be. I probably don't know enough about her to make a good argument. You spelled Captain wrong by the way. :D

@ NSS: DK... I'm not sure if he's higher than Lucario, but definitely he's better than Fox. Fox really has only speed and decent attacks going for him this time around, and DK outranges him and outperforms him in many respects. The jury is still completely out on Wario's placement overall, though.
Kirby deserves a higher spot due to his large amount of good matchups. The only people he can't beat are most of who are considered top and upper high tiers. The real thing I see keeping him from going farther is that most of who's above him could beat him.
Why did I say Mario's too high? He's fine right where he is. Ignore that part.
Yoshi, though... he can outperform most of the characters on the rest of low tier, but because what you say your tier list is based on, maybe he can't get that much higher.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ Hedgedawg: I still think Zelda's too high, but I'm sure you won't change that, so I'll let it be. I probably don't know enough about her to make a good argument. You spelled Captain wrong by the way. :D

I'm willing to move her around within that tier, but not out of it unless some really good incentive is made to do so... who would you have above her?

 

[Fish13srg]

Okay... here's my argument for why the Pokémon Trainer should be treated as one character in the tier list, and why he should be placed in the upper middle to lower high range.

If you base these conclusions from the Character Matchup chart found HERE, you find this.

While each Pokémon individually has relatively bad matchups, if you combine all the data with the presumption that the player can switch out whenever he wants (which is true), you will come to the conclusion that there are only four characters that are good against Pokémon Trainer as a whole:

Falco
Marth
Meta Knight
Pit

That's not very many. There are eleven characters that have a neutral matchup with one or two of the Pokémon, but are good against the other(s):

Fox (Ivysaur, Squirtle)
Game & Watch (Ivysaur)
Ice Climbers (Ivysaur)
Pikachu (Charizard, Ivysaur)
R.O.B. (Ivysaur, Squirtle)
Sheik (Ivysaur, Squirtle)
Snake (Ivysaur)
Sonic (Ivysaur, Squirtle)
Wario (Ivysaur)
Wolf (Squirtle)
Zero Suit Samus (Squirtle)

Every other character in the game is bad against at least one of the Pokémon Trainer's team.

Switching out gives the opponent a free strike, but their timing has to be perfect. There's only a one to two frame window between when you can be hit and when you can shield, and once you've perfect-shielded, you're fine. A lot of characters have a lot more riskier time-frames than that.

Because Pokémon Trainers' weaknesses seem to fall on the established high-tier characters (and let's face it, most people in the game do as well, just with a bunch of extra weaknesses), he ought to be placed somewhere just below them. High middle or low high.

 

[bacun]

I think that while each pokemon should be placed individually in the tier list, it would also make sense to put PT himself as a completely separate entry, since the tier lists for the individual pokemon would rate them on their individual strengths, but also rate PT on his tournament viability overall since his play is a combination of the individual pokemon games and how they combine as a whole.

Just my two cents.

EDIT: Typo

 

[Ratherion]

Fish makes a very good point. You can counterpick AFTER the game starts.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But does that still matter when you kill the Pokemon you have an disadvantage on?


Having an advantage for only 1/3 of the match is not good at all. Your opponent is not just gonna let you switch all will without you eating your opponent's strongest smash/Special, which is putting that stock in danger.

PT is not even close to High tier or even Mid Tier at this point in time. He ranks very low in tourney outings, isn't percieved to be that good in the first place, and shifting matchups are not a good thing in competitive play.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

*post*
Just for the lulz

God Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake

Upper-High Tier:
Falco
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Mr. Game & Watch

Lower-High Tier:
Dedede
Pit
Marth
Zelda
Fox
Pikmin & Olimar
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Wario

Upper-Middle Tier:
Ice climbers
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Ike

Lower-Middle Tier:
Lucario
Peach
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Ness
Lucas

Upper-Low Tier:
Mario
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Samus

Bottom-Low Tier:
Sonic
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Ratherion]

But does that still matter when you kill the character you have an advantage on?

I would consider killing the person you're against a good thing?

isn't percieved to be that good in the first place

Lolololol Falco is a terrible fox clone.