Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

???


Wario, at least judging from Ankoku's topic, actually has more WINS than MK. Albeit he's lacking in overall placing, as there's always a MK or Snake up there in almost every single tourney.

 

[DiasFlac]

I'm a Bowser main and I love Bowser but I find it hard to believe he's high tier. Low tier or bottom sounds about right for him but high is crazy.

I think some of you guys should play as Bowser for at least a week doing many wifi matches and tell me if you still believe he's high tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

just a preface, I'm not saying falcon is better than bowser, keep in mind I admit bowser is MUCH better than falcon.

that having been said:
bowser might have more decent matchups than falcon has, falcon's opponent is favoured to win in the grand majority of his matchups, however, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, though falcon has more "bad" matchups, bowser has more "terrible" matchups. There are some characters that just thrive on big, slow, heavy characters and are quite capable of punishing bowser over and over again. He simply gets outclassed way too often not to be low tier. his good matchups prevent him from being bottom tier, but his bad matchups keep him from being mid tier.

Being a large target only really makes him slightly more susceptible to projectiles, that's it. Matchups that people think are bad for Bowser are actually pretty even or possibly in Bowser's favor. Take Marth, for instance. Most people think Marth>>>>>>Bowser in the matchup. Of course, they're just Melee scrubs. Bowser's ftilt outranges Marth's everything completely. Flame breath is a decent approach/approach stopper. And Bowser will only get combo'd if the player is too stupid to airdodge out of it. I've played good Marths with Bowser, and the matchup is fine. I wouldn't say it goes in Bowser's favor, but it's definitely not against him in any way.

@DiasFlac, I've used Bowser a lot over wifi, against good people too, and I do just fine, despite the fact that his biggitude is a disadvantage over wifi. How's this....try playing against a *good* Bowser for a week, and tell me if you think he's still low tier or bottom tier. I'll stretch it and say he's high tier, but he's most likely just mid tier somewhere, higher/mid end of it. If you show me a decent tier list, I'll tell you where Bowser should be on it.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Look at mine or Kiwi's >_>

 

[flyingemus]

You contradicted yourself. If you truly took into account that Meta can get to 150% in the same time frame others get to 100%, then you would realize he not only kills just fine, he has a relatively easy time KOing.


And like said before, Anything kills 2 feet away from the boundry. MK is like a buffed Jigglypuff with a Sword and superb ground game instead of a crappy one. His edgeguarding tools and capabilites are unmatched, bar none.

What I meant by that is Meta only seems to have little small attacks that con raise damage, but those little small wimpy attacks is all he has. His forward smash really seem to be the only move I've seen that can kill unless very close to the edge.

 

[Davimert]

What I meant by that is Meta only seems to have little small attacks that con raise damage, but those little small wimpy attacks is all he has. His forward smash really seem to be the only move I've seen that can kill unless very close to the edge.

His upB KILLS.

 

[fkacyan]

What I meant by that is Meta only seems to have little small attacks that con raise damage, but those little small wimpy attacks is all he has. His forward smash really seem to be the only move I've seen that can kill unless very close to the edge.

Meta Knight doesn't need to outright kill. If he gets you off the edge in the air he has an easy time killing you as well.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Really? Dsmash comes our much faster and has just about the same amount of Knockback Fsmash has, unless it is affected by diminishing returns.


And a good sweetspotted Up-B or Nair does the trick.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

I will forever now denounce tier lists because they are insignificant to the potential of a character. I wasn't sure what a tier list was exactly; only by generalization that what character was more deadly or crazy to defeat, but it was revealed that a tier list is simply what characters won some high tournament and gained recognition it's labeled in the bracket of top or high tier. My reaction....**** tier lists cause each character has the potential be a menacing threat.

If you have more to add or counter this argument plz. feel free to express it.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I will forever now denounce tier lists because they are insignificant to the potential of a character. I wasn't sure what a tier list was exactly; only by generalization that what character was more deadly or crazy to defeat, but it was revealed that a tier list is simply what characters won some high tournament and gained recognition it's labeled in the bracket of top or high tier. My reaction....**** tier lists cause each character has the potential be a menacing threat.

If you have more to add or counter this argument plz. feel free to express it.

You don't seem to understand that a Tier list is not only made by Tourney results......

Matchups and Percieved Metagame potential are the other factors. All character can be a "Menacing Threat" (Except Falcon) when played right, but at the very highest levels of competition, some character are indefinitely better than others.

 

[SaxDude93]

You don't seem to understand that a Tier list is not only made by Tourney results......

Matchups and Percieved Metagame potential are the other factors. All character can be a "Menacing Threat" when played right, but at the very highest levels of competition, some character are indefinitely better than others.

Except Falcon. Anyway, I thought you were going to post your OP from GameFAQ's.

 

[St. Viers]

^^why do scrubs have to take my avvy >_<

Anywho, time to see what to do with this thread:

re: sonic.

I'm sorry, but he's not good. His only strength is chasing/grabbing. He has speed, but because of that they nerfed his power too much.

On the ground, his only approachs is side B (but that's telegraphed), dashing upsmash (!), grab (telegraphed), dash attack (telegrpahed). I'm not going to go into the mind games of approaching, because mind games have NO BEARING on tier placement, except in tournie winnings.

In the air, he has too little priority, unfortunately. His n-air is okay, and his b-air as well (though the b-air is a bit slow). Someone said that his up-air kills at 100%. ?! Unless you're playing someone who doesn't know about DI (or playing solely on smashville), that isn't true.

His recovery is great, I'll give him that. But thanks to the DI in this game, everyone's recovery is good--it isn't as much of a benefit as it was in melee.

w/ regards to getting kills: Sonic has trouble. His f-air lasts long enough that if they airdodge, you can't follow up. His smashes are slow (except for upsmash, but as you are probably using it to approach...) with bad range. His f-smash IS telegraphed, mario's isn't that good either, so bad comparison.

Matchupwise: He's good against big people who have slow attacks. in other words, DDD. Bowser's jab just completely shuts sonic down from the ground, and sonic has great trouble killing him. His f-tilt is faster than and out ranges sonics smashed, and his f-air beats out (I'm pretty sure) most of sonics aerials. And it's fast.

DK's range on ground is better than bowsers, and people thinking that sonic>DK need to play better DKs. Enough said.

So I'm not saying sonic is horrible--he is definately better than falcon/ganon/jiggz/peach, but he's still low. Maybe if people were only allowed to play on FD/smashville/eldin he'd be better, but as it is, he's top of low at best.

Re: MK this conversation was hilarious. MK>Sonic in everything but speed. I think this one was argued enough, but just a few more points:

someone said that people wouldn't play MK up close. That's true. Unfortunately for the opponent, MK is the best approacher in the game, making it hard to camp him well. Also, his upB has deceptively large range.

I like the MK comparison, and all the controversy it stirred up ^_^ MK can get kills. Sonic can't. big difference.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I probably should >_>

 

[Kiwikomix]

****, there was a huge argument about whether Sonic sucks or not and I totally missed it!

Anyone who says Meta-Knight can't get kills:
Play a good human Meta-Knight. Then come back on the boards and try saying it again.
Although d-smash and upB are the moves with th highest knockback, for MK it's a simple matter of linking together moves enough to get the opponent to the edge, then keeping them from coming back.

 

[St. Viers]

It wasn't a good arguement--feel happy ^_^

 

[Kiwikomix]

What is happy?

Anyway, I think it's time we talked about Kirby (for the first time on this thread?). Nobody thinks this guy should be high tier. The main problem I see is that he's lightweight, but there aren't really any other glaring disadvantages. I think NSS may have put him at bottom of high, but everyone else is skeptical. Why is this?

 

[St. Viers]

^^I personally love kirby, but I can see why people think he isn't so good:

1. He's light (you said this)
2. His floatiness doesn't come along with amazing aerial maneuverability (wario, puff, etc)
3. he doesn't have a projectile.

However, people forget that:

1. He can duck under most projectiles
2. He has amazing range on his tilts, grab, smashes
3. His up-air "combos," or at least sets up for punishment
4. His aerials are quick, and have good priority, and knockback.
5. Excellent throws

The way I see it, everyone thought kirby was super good when brawl first came out. Then when they realized that MK was super kirby, they automatically forgot that kirby was good.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Exactly. MK can do just about everything Kirby can, but even better.


The exact situation with Link and Toon Link, except Kirby is actually good for the most part

 

[Dexter Morgan]

From what I've heard, Snake is winning/doing well in tournaments. If that is what a lot of people use, it will be high tier. Heck, if everyone used Bowser, he would be higher.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

How in the world are you a Debater with only 8 posts and joined this month? O_o

 

[St. Viers]

and with such a faulty grasp on logic?

If lots of people use bowser, and bowser sucks, he won't win tournies, because this isn't a random chance thing...the 1 or 2 snakes would just walk over all the bowsers.

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^I personally love kirby, but I can see why people think he isn't so good:

1. He's light (you said this)
2. His floatiness doesn't come along with amazing aerial maneuverability (wario, puff, etc)
3. he doesn't have a projectile.

However, people forget that:

1. He can duck under most projectiles
2. He has amazing range on his tilts, grab, smashes
3. His up-air "combos," or at least sets up for punishment
4. His aerials are quick, and have good priority, and knockback.
5. Excellent throws

The way I see it, everyone thought kirby was super good when brawl first came out. Then when they realized that MK was super kirby, they automatically forgot that kirby was good.

He is light, but fortunately he has a good recovery, so if he doesn't get smashed off the side of the stage, he'll come back to the edge. I know that doesn't cancel out this weakness, but it does make it less glaring.
The floatiness thing is something I'm surprised you picked up. It seemed to me like something only an extensive Kirby player would know about, so I don't see noobs posting it on these threads that often. Kudos.
Kirby's play style actually makes no projectile not a large issue. The only reason he would need a projectile is to cancel out his opponent's projectile. Kirby is mostly an in-your-face type of character, so yeah.
Most projectiles that he can't duck under can be countered with a quick jab, which cancels projectiles such as Mario's, Pikachu's, and the IC's. Yet another reason why he doesn't need a projectile.
D-tilt and d-smash have poor range, every other ground move can hit from quite a ways away. And yes, he does have one of the largest grab ranges.
U-air can juggle, and works wonders against characters like Marth.
The aerials that don't have good knockback can WOP.
Two of his throws create situations for combos, and the third has KO power at high percentages. B-throw is kind of useless comparatively unless setting up for a bair.

Two other things not mentioned that Kirby has going for him:
- Insane grab combos. D-throw -> u-tilt -> u-tilt -> u-air -> u-air juggle -> upB. If performed at the right starting point, this combo will pretty much inescapably place the opponent off the edge. These are especially great against heavy characters like Boozer and Wolf.
- Kirbycides/Stage Kills. Kirby lost his suicide throws but can still kill himself with an inhale -> jump off the edge. He can also stick the opponent underneath the stage, which means characters with poor vertical or overall recovery are pretty much dead.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Doesn't Gimpyfish play with Bowser?

 

[SaxDude93]

Doesn't Gimpyfish play with Bowser?

1 person does not equal a character being good.

Also, couldn't the shockwave from Kirby's Up-B be considered a projectile.

 

[St. Viers]

gimpyfish doesn't really play brawl that much (and until recently played metaknight). Also, he's just one player...or are there more of him now, winning tons of tournies? :rolls eyes back:

You aren't making sense, go back to the debate section and learn to construct arguements


@Kiwi: yeah, I said great grab range+good throws, but I didn't think I had to spell it out

 

[Kiwikomix]

zomg be cairful evary1 its actually gimpy in disguise!!!11111

And the shockwave is "technically" a projectile, but the lag on the entire move and the shortish range it has make anyone who tries to use it that way a total loser.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

People who spam The Shockwave from Up-B as a mean to camp are just......lol

 

[SaxDude93]

I just remembered this. A while back in this thread, someone made a tier list that was based on characters relations with Kirby. Anybody see that?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yeah dude, that was way back when. I think that person got ridiculed though.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Here's my claim: Wario will be no higher than mid-tier when it's all said and done.

Basic reason: He has no ground game, so using him is like playing half a game.

Details:
-He has one of the game's slowest jabs, and poor reach on top of that. It's unlikely to hit an opponent.
-His F-tilt is decent, but does a bad job fulfilling the role of a tilt. Once again, it comes out too slow.
-His D-tilt has such poor knockback that you usually take a retaliatory hit even if you hit with it.
-His U-tilt has short reach and comes out too slow. Again, unlikely to hit.
-His F-smash is one of the only good points in his ground game due to the armor frames and fast pullout. It still has unimpressive reach, though.
-His D-smash is like Jiggs' Rest with no appreciable reward for landing it. If you miss this, expect to lose a stock. Not safe at all.
-His U-smash has short reach again, and doesn't make up for that with its knockback.
-His grab and throws are the other decent point in his ground game; his D-throw put the opponent at a positional disadvantage.
-I really never used his dash attack much; is it any good?

As Wario, you have so few options on the ground, that you almost have to go to the air. Fewer options tends to lead to greater predictability; for example, one has a better chance of correctly calling a coin flip than a roll of a die. When people figure out what Wario does and learn how to fight it, Wario will become less and less effective, unless his game reveals several unforseen developments.

Also, in my experience (Wario was my first main), Wario has a difficult time approaching opponents that have significantly longer reach; a list that is close to ten characters long.

Ultimately, I expect him to land about where Jiggs landed on Melee's tier list due to his high aerial agility, his weight, and his fart, going no higher than that due to the reasons listed above.

 

[St. Viers]

that was laijin...no one ridiculed him.

@dexter: well thought out post, did you take my advice? (jkjk)

however, what if you do this:

replace using his jab with using his f-smash. Replace using his f-smash with his t-tilt.

Boost smash/shield-hit cancel his dash into up-smash to approach/rack up damage.

Mix up using shieldgrab with bite to rack up damage (grab at lower percents, bite at higher)

Use the fact that shield-drop->variety of moves>shield-grabbing.

Honestly, the reason he's going to stay good is this: Because of his aerial prowess, he can totally **** with how people think the game should be played. His ground game is completely insane, not good or bad, just insane, like mad. SO he can mess with it, and still use his aerials to not be completely screwed. I agree that if playing conventionally was the best way to play him, he'd suck, but luckily he was made in such a way that it isn't necessary to play conventionally ^_^

Wario is a mind-game, and honestly, I think that he is the most interesting character to play as, cause he screws the rules (whether or not he has money is moot)

 

[SaxDude93]

Wait, there is a t-tilt now. OMG. New AT/glitch/whatever is discovered. It was found here first. 1!!!11!eleven!!!

 

[Browny]

On the ground, his only approachs is side B (but that's telegraphed), dashing upsmash (!), grab (telegraphed), dash attack (telegrpahed). I'm not going to go into the mind games of approaching, because mind games have NO BEARING on tier placement, except in tournie winnings.

oh god.... my mind, its blown

his ONLY approach is side b? ever heard of jumping?

you wanna get into telegraphed approaches eh. look at snake, marth, G&W. i could counter thier approaches with my eyes closed, its the same every time. sonic probably has more approach options than anyone since he can get to any height (if you havent seen it, it takes 3 d-airs from this height to get back to the ground) with a double spring, travel underneath any floating stage and come up on the other side etc.

 

[SaxDude93]

oh god.... my mind, its blown

his ONLY approach is side b? ever heard of jumping?

you wanna get into telegraphed approaches eh. look at snake, marth, G&W. i could counter thier approaches with my eyes closed, its the same every time. sonic probably has more approach options than anyone since he can get to any height (if you havent seen it, it takes 3 d-airs from this height to get back to the ground) with a double spring, travel underneath any floating stage and come up on the other side etc.

Jumping is punishable. Mortarsliding isn't. Marth has a sword, G&W has sausages.

 

[Browny]

duly noted

all characters without swords or projectiles have no approaches

 

[St. Viers]

oh god.... my mind, its blown

his ONLY approach is side b? ever heard of jumping?

you wanna get into telegraphed approaches eh. look at snake, marth, G&W. i could counter thier approaches with my eyes closed, its the same every time. sonic probably has more approach options than anyone since he can get to any height (if you havent seen it, it takes 3 d-airs from this height to get back to the ground) with a double spring, travel underneath any floating stage and come up on the other side etc.

read my post more carefully, especially the ON THE GROUND part, because last I checked, jumping involved getting off the ground. I go into aerials later. Also, I have other approaches, I just don't main sonic, so I don't know them all.

Also, getting to any height doesn't help approaching, because the character you are approaching is at a specific height. Travelling underneath a stage isn't exactly approaching either. And as going underneath a stage with sonic takes some time (I assume you are using homing attacks against the ground while underneath right?) so I'd called it the most telegraphed "approach" possible.

Seriously, learn to read, learn to be objective. Even if sonic is low tier, that doesn't mean he can't win...this is a fighting game, not a simple low tier=.1 chance of winning, so roll dice amd hope.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ djbrowny: Dude, do your best not to return every single conversation to a Sonic discussion.

@ DexterMorgan: I don't think you can really place a character based on only one facet of their game. If Wario has "no ground game", but a great air game, shouldn't he be able to just use the air to his advantage most of the time? It's like Jiggz in Melee, her game on the ground was extremely limited, but her air game was unbelievable, and she was in high tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

What I meant by that is Meta only seems to have little small attacks that con raise damage, but those little small wimpy attacks is all he has. His forward smash really seem to be the only move I've seen that can kill unless very close to the edge.

Why do noobs have to breathe?

oh god.... my mind, its blown

his ONLY approach is side b? ever heard of jumping?

you wanna get into telegraphed approaches eh. look at snake, marth, G&W. i could counter thier approaches with my eyes closed, its the same every time. sonic probably has more approach options than anyone since he can get to any height (if you havent seen it, it takes 3 d-airs from this height to get back to the ground) with a double spring, travel underneath any floating stage and come up on the other side etc.

Why do noobs have to breathe?

sigh....

 

[Ace55]

I don't really give a rat's *** about where Wario is gonna end up on the tier list, but I have to disagree with the "he has less options because of ground game" statement.
Wario might have to rely on his air game to get in close but that's just what he's good at, you can:
-have your aerial attack shielded and still retreat without fear of getting grabbed;
-hit somebody's shield, DI through them, and land behind them;
-bite them (whahaha);
-simpy airdodge at them;
-etc
What I'm saying is that all the extra options he has in the air make up for his lack of ground moves (downsmash is really the dumbest smash I've ever seen, worse than Ness's jojo).

 

[St. Viers]

Ness' yoyo is good. I think you mean dumber than melee ness' yoyo ^_^

Also, as I said earlier, his ground game is unconventional, not bad.