Ratherion
Smash Journeyman
I believe there is an Akuma in Ninja Gaiden.
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'm highly considering switching Dedede and wolf on my list. I was alos thinking about moving sonic up a few spaces.
I was also considering moving toon link and olimar up a tier and putting snake and mtaknight up in their own....
what are the thoughts on this?
Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Game & Watch
Marth
Zelda
Falco
High:
Toon Link
Olimar
Rob
Diddy Kong
Wario
Pit
Lucario
Lucas
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Dedede
Middle:
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Squirtle
Sheik
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Mario
Fox
Low:
Ness
Peach
Kirby
Ike
Bowser
Samus
Sonic
Ivysaur
Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Capatin Falcon
I was also considering moving toon link and olimar up a tier and putting snake and mtaknight up in their own....
what are the thoughts on this?
Top:
Snake
Meta Knight
Game & Watch
Marth
Zelda
Falco
High:
Toon Link
Olimar
Rob
Diddy Kong
Wario
Pit
Lucario
Lucas
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Dedede
Middle:
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Squirtle
Sheik
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Mario
Fox
Low:
Ness
Peach
Kirby
Ike
Bowser
Samus
Sonic
Ivysaur
Bottom:
Link
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Capatin Falcon
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Sheik is still mid-tier dude....
Jeez, just because she isn't Cable anymore doesn't mean she's not still good....
Jeez, just because she isn't Cable anymore doesn't mean she's not still good....
orintemple
Smash Lord
Akuma is from Street Fighter...
Despite your best efforts, that list posted in orange has some CORRECT PLACEMENTS! MWAHAHA FAIL!
Despite your best efforts, that list posted in orange has some CORRECT PLACEMENTS! MWAHAHA FAIL!
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Me? yeah I like sheik, I play as sheik... sheik is good... but it just so happens that her best move is down+B which kinda margenalizes her... but I'll move her up now that it's been brought up
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
*sigh* Why are people so borderline?
It's entirely possible for a character with two forms to be quite useful in BOTH of those forms, you know. It's entirely possible that while Zelda is an overall better character, Sheik has her uses and can do things that Zelda cannot, such as have a halfway decent method of approach.
This may come as a shock to you, but I've seen people win as Samus WITHOUT switching to Zero Suit Samus! INCREDIBLE, isn't it?!
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
listen, there's absolutely no need for you to be so rude. honeslty, it's a wonder I'm replying to you after this post, but I will anyway:
A)Zelda's approach is halfway decent... it's not much more than halfway decent, but it is halfway decent.
B) it makes a difference where sheik doesn't happen to match up well against anyone zelda doesn't already match up well against.What sheik can do isn't actually much use to zelda because it's not much help most of the time.
C) shiek is... well... middle of the road in brawl. maybe underrated on lots of tier lists, but not for no good reason, as a charcter, shiek is completely underwhelming in brawl. I still find shiek a fun play, but definitely no better tahn absolute middle, though no worse than top of low
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
The fact that you're implying that there's no reason to play as Sheik in a tournament is extremely irritating. As someone who plays Sheik and does well, it's very frustrating to be snubbed by anyone, especially an anon on SWF.
I agree with you. Sheik is middle of the road. Zelda isn't much higher up than that. Since I started with 3S I'm going to use Street Fighter terminology for this, and I do apologize in advance. Seriously, no sarcasm.
Zelda is upper-mid. I'd say Sheik is mid-mid. Sonic is almost unanimously considered to be low-tier, but he's won tournaments. If Sheik is middle tier, doesn't that mean that, overall, she's better than Sonic? So if Sonic wins tournaments, can't Sheik do the same thing, in theory?
I agree that Zelda is better. But there are some people who, as absurd as it may seem, dislike Zelda's playstyle. The way that Sheik plays, which is mostly about running fast and using quick combination attacks, is distinctive, and she plays the same way she does in Melee. She just isn't as good at it. For people who enjoy the way Sheik plays, she's still playable and a Sheik player can still win in Brawl, just like in Melee, a Samus player can win even though she isn't top-tier or even high.
Just as Zelda has her high points, so does Sheik. Sheik is very, very fast, she's quick on the draw, and her projectile is pretty cool. The way your post comes off, you're implying that Sheik is completely worthless. I'm here to tell you that that isn't anywhere close to true.
Call me rude if you want, ignore me if you want, but that's my two cents.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
one last post since this response of yours was no warmer nor less rude than the first...
1) I play shiek with moderate success and shiek was my secondary in melee, so I know all of what you are, in a quite condescending manner, telling me.
2) I never claimed sheik was rubish at all... I said she was mid-mid at best and high-low at worst... don't attempt to fabricate my words... you can in no way twist wahta I said in anyway to say that shiek is worthless, and I really don't appreciate you misquoting me. if you aren't going to quote my post, then you sure as hell better make sure that you aren't lying about what I said in your "quote" that you make up.
3) By your logic, which is not untrue, ANYONE can win a tournament if the person playing them has enough of a skill advantage on their opponents... and early brawl wins aren't going to mean much later, once the game has been flushed out more.
4) after bringing up sonic in the previous paragraph, stating that sheik's playstyle is unique in its use of "running fast and using combination attacks" comes across as, well... silly.
5) This, if nothing else, is what makes me disregard your comments... you claim that zelda and shiek are very similar in skill. That's just dead wrong. As much as you may like to believe the alternative, sheik is no better than mid-mid. Zelda, on the other hand, is in the high area of high at a minimum... shiek just isn't in her league at all. And, yes, I play both of them proficiently.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I apoligize for this but...
Your skin is too thin. The earlier post was a bit rude, but the second really wasn't rude at all.
Lobelia Mk. IV wasn't talking about what you actually said, Lobelia Mk. IV was talking about what you implied. While it might have been a bit sweeping it's not incorrect, you didn't imply that Sheik was any better then low tier.
difference between mid-low and mid-mid is very minor.
As is the difference between high-low and mid-high. This is where personal opinion plays a major role and it's very difficult to ascertain who's right. Both of you are suggesting the same general area for both Sheik and Zelda. Sorry, but this is just one of those things that needs to be flushed out by the BR, however, you can both agree on aproximately the same respective locations for Sheik and Zelda.
Grunt
Smash Master
Shiek>Zelda against Mother kids.
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
i guess you both just ran over each other there,first,its true,sonic prolly gonna be mid-low,but as ive seen bottom tier in melee win tourneys,the same can be said here with sheik or samus
noones skillset is the same(cept' ness and lucas)some are similar,but they end up playing way diffrent.
you never know,sheil could end up being higher than mid,same for zelda
noones skillset is the same(cept' ness and lucas)some are similar,but they end up playing way diffrent.
you never know,sheil could end up being higher than mid,same for zelda
SheikSmasher
Smash Cadet
Sheik should be middle I think just because shes been nerfed with doesnt mean shes still lame at fighting If you use sheik for racking up damage and then change into zelda then youve got the ko-master on your hands =D
NESSBOUNDER
Smash Master
Shiek can almost infinitely combo Fox IIRC. Zelda cannot. She has her uses.
homicidalrapist
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 105
omg!!! too many comments to go thru! i'll just say that fox/falco/wolf are high tier to me, MK, marth, toon link, snake i think are top tier to me. first slow character to get p high i the tier list is snake, cuz he's awesome.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Adumbrodeous:
nope.... you are wrong.
1) she's being rude... I'm not saying I'm thin skinned and crying that she's hurting my feelings, but she's rude.
2) I SAID in no uncertain terms that shiek is somewhere between Mid-mid and high-low. how the hell does that imply that shiek is no better than low? The WORST I said shiek could be is the best low character.
3) I said zelda is at least top of high and shiek is at best middle of mid.... that's a minium of a 1.5 tier difference and a maximum of over 2 tiers... so, yeah, they aren't close.
so... following through:
nope.... you are wrong.
1) she's being rude... I'm not saying I'm thin skinned and crying that she's hurting my feelings, but she's rude.
2) I SAID in no uncertain terms that shiek is somewhere between Mid-mid and high-low. how the hell does that imply that shiek is no better than low? The WORST I said shiek could be is the best low character.
3) I said zelda is at least top of high and shiek is at best middle of mid.... that's a minium of a 1.5 tier difference and a maximum of over 2 tiers... so, yeah, they aren't close.
so... following through:
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
These tier lists seem pretty tough to make for brawl. Their gonna make one thats screwed up and for brawl you can barely go off of these lists cause its pretty balanced. Better than melee anyways.
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
lolz there banning the CG in my Tournament are Look for the houston thread to post your argument lolz. you did not here this from me lolz....
MedaKnight is falling in the tiers fast but not by much snake and G&W are pwning.
MedaKnight is falling in the tiers fast but not by much snake and G&W are pwning.
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Well, since Hedgedawg appears to take criticism personally, I don't think I should say anything to him. Shame, his new tier list isn't half bad, but if I point out the flaws, he'll call me a rude person again, and that kind of drama isn't something I want before I've had my coffee.
I don't think I have enough savoir-faire to make a tier list, but I can tell you what I know. I know that Snake, Meta Knight, Marth, and Falco are top tier. I know that you'll mostly likely see the BRoomers place Diddy Kong, Olimar, and Zero Suit Samus in the high tier. I know that the mid-tier in Brawl is bigger than Melee's, and Donkey Kong, Zelda, Sheik, WEEGEE, Ike, and Pokemon Trainer will probably be found there. I know, as much as I hate to admit, that Samus is low tier, as is Jigglypuff. Bottom tier I'd give to Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Sonic, personally, but that's just me.
I think one of the more up-in-the-air characters right now is Peach. Now, Peach is my only secondary in Melee, and I'm halfway decent with her there, so I was pretty cheesed when I discovered that she's no longer a defensive goddess in Brawl. Her tier list placing has ranged from mid-mid to dead bottom, but I personally would call Peach low-mid. She can still rumble. I myself whip her out from time to time and have moderate success, but the thing is that a lot of the tools upon which Peach relied in Melee are gone. They aren't nerfed or toned down, they're gone. Which is sad. But it's true.
What do you guys think of Peach?
I don't think I have enough savoir-faire to make a tier list, but I can tell you what I know. I know that Snake, Meta Knight, Marth, and Falco are top tier. I know that you'll mostly likely see the BRoomers place Diddy Kong, Olimar, and Zero Suit Samus in the high tier. I know that the mid-tier in Brawl is bigger than Melee's, and Donkey Kong, Zelda, Sheik, WEEGEE, Ike, and Pokemon Trainer will probably be found there. I know, as much as I hate to admit, that Samus is low tier, as is Jigglypuff. Bottom tier I'd give to Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Sonic, personally, but that's just me.
I think one of the more up-in-the-air characters right now is Peach. Now, Peach is my only secondary in Melee, and I'm halfway decent with her there, so I was pretty cheesed when I discovered that she's no longer a defensive goddess in Brawl. Her tier list placing has ranged from mid-mid to dead bottom, but I personally would call Peach low-mid. She can still rumble. I myself whip her out from time to time and have moderate success, but the thing is that a lot of the tools upon which Peach relied in Melee are gone. They aren't nerfed or toned down, they're gone. Which is sad. But it's true.
What do you guys think of Peach?
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
If you were pointing out his mistakes, you missed the biggest one - Kirby in low tier? Sure I may have biased feelings about one of my favorite videogame characters of all times, but the facts denote Kirby should be either 1 or 2 in the mid tier, or the bottom of the high tier. Reasoning behind this is that he murders almost everyone below him, and has some favorable match-ups in the higher tiers. For one, Ike should be low on your high tier and is a favorable match-up for Kirby. Fox and Wolf should also be somewhere in the high tier, where I'm not exactly sure though. He, as with all spacies is also a favorable match-up for Kirby. Everyone in the lower tiers except for Sheik is either a favorable or even match-up. As for the rest of the higher tier characters, his only extreme disadvantages are Lucas, Kirby, Meta Knight, and Ice Climbers who have a field day on Kirby. These four <i>SHOULD</i> win any match against Kirby with little trouble. Some tough matches, but still very manageable matches are Toon Link, Zelda, Marth, and GaW. Most match-ups are even, but notable favors include vs Olimar, vs Spacies, vs D3, vs SNAKE!!! Olimar's >B is easily outprioritized by Kirby's aerial approach, he's cake to edgeguard, and his lightness makes him easy to KO. Spacies get comboed to 50%~53% from 0%, get comboed otherwise very easily due to their gravity, and with the exception of Wolf, get KOed easily, and with the exception of Fox, can be edgeguarded with little effort. D3 can't chaingrab, is a massive target, and gets comboed very well. Snake is also comboed well, camping Snakes aren't as effective and his ^B is no match for Kirby's bair.
Digital Angel
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2007
- Messages
- 304
Responding to spam is still spam. :/
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
he didn't know it was spam at first... so, he's not he one spamming.... YOU are..... hypocrite
You are underestimating zelda... no matter how you split it, she's higher than mid tier.
I play peach a lot. I love her, she's really fun and has one of the most unique playstyles, but the problem is she has a lot of uphill fights... which means she's gotta be in the lower tiers... too bad too I wish it weren't so.
Sonic's better than bottom tier... he's not better than low tier, but he's not bottom.
ZSS is not better than zelda.
G&W is better than falco or olimar
Zelda is about on par with falco, but is better than olimar.
As a player of jiggz as well... I thinkt that, if she is low, she's in the lower portion of low... all that was good about her has been cut significantly except her fair.
to the other guy: kirby is good, sure, but no way he's high tier. neither is fox...
I don't mind criticism... I mind condescencion and when people lie about what I said... whether intentionally or not.
You are underestimating zelda... no matter how you split it, she's higher than mid tier.
I play peach a lot. I love her, she's really fun and has one of the most unique playstyles, but the problem is she has a lot of uphill fights... which means she's gotta be in the lower tiers... too bad too I wish it weren't so.
Sonic's better than bottom tier... he's not better than low tier, but he's not bottom.
ZSS is not better than zelda.
G&W is better than falco or olimar
Zelda is about on par with falco, but is better than olimar.
As a player of jiggz as well... I thinkt that, if she is low, she's in the lower portion of low... all that was good about her has been cut significantly except her fair.
to the other guy: kirby is good, sure, but no way he's high tier. neither is fox...
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
Reasoning plz...I told you why he should be top of mid-tier or bottom of high tier, yet you respond with a single opinionated sentence.
As for Fox, he is still lightning fast, he can still combo like crazy, he still has ridiculous recovery, he has SHTL now, Drillshine still exists though outclassed by drilltilt, bair is no longer a sex kick but still better than before, Usmash is still beast, he got Falco's power for his fsmash and can still reflect which is more important now more than ever. True he's lighter, can't waveshine, and though he can still combo, its nowhere near his melee capabilities, but to put Fox anywhere other than high tier shows inexperience. Same thing applies to putting Kirby in the Low tier, he would essentially destroy all Low Tier tournaments and then be moved up to mid tier by default. At least try to name some higher up counters and give reasonings behind their capabilities to counter before you make a blanket statement.
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
I'm not denying Zelda's quality, but I do think that ZSS is better. I wouldn't say she's in the same league as Falco, either. Zelda has way too many flaws to be placed in the same category as little miss lasers and d-smash. The reason I didn't list Game & Watch or R.O.B. is because everyone's so up in the air about them.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Kirby doesn't match up well against a single one of the really high charcters:
Meta Knight, Snake, Game and Watch, Marth, Zelda, Falco all match up favourably against kirby so he's going to get reamed in upper level play.
Even in the high tier, toon link ice climbers and pikachu at least have him stopped.
he gets beaten by some of the mid-low characters too... like ike and ness.
and that's just people with advantages on him. A lot of the mid characters he has no advantage on but only is on equal footing. heck... even some low charcters he's only equal with... like G-dorf or ivy... in fact... it looks pretty much like this almost exactly:
Kirby vs top or high: kirby loses
Kirby vs Mid- bottom: kirby will probably win, but it's a toss up.
really he's no beter than mid tier at best. maybe he doesn't quite deserve low tier, but he doesn't deserve anything in the upper half of the roster.
G&W is not really a toss up... he's upper eschelon for sure... where EXACTLY, who knows, but definitely in the upper eschelon and most put him as a solid 3rd.
ROB moreso is a tossup, but still high.
Zelda has flaws, maybe even more than falco, but the gap between zelda and falco is definitely closer than the gap between either one of them and the next charcter down.
ZSS is good, but she has a lot more bad matchups than zelda.
Meta Knight, Snake, Game and Watch, Marth, Zelda, Falco all match up favourably against kirby so he's going to get reamed in upper level play.
Even in the high tier, toon link ice climbers and pikachu at least have him stopped.
he gets beaten by some of the mid-low characters too... like ike and ness.
and that's just people with advantages on him. A lot of the mid characters he has no advantage on but only is on equal footing. heck... even some low charcters he's only equal with... like G-dorf or ivy... in fact... it looks pretty much like this almost exactly:
Kirby vs top or high: kirby loses
Kirby vs Mid- bottom: kirby will probably win, but it's a toss up.
really he's no beter than mid tier at best. maybe he doesn't quite deserve low tier, but he doesn't deserve anything in the upper half of the roster.
G&W is not really a toss up... he's upper eschelon for sure... where EXACTLY, who knows, but definitely in the upper eschelon and most put him as a solid 3rd.
ROB moreso is a tossup, but still high.
Zelda has flaws, maybe even more than falco, but the gap between zelda and falco is definitely closer than the gap between either one of them and the next charcter down.
ZSS is good, but she has a lot more bad matchups than zelda.
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
Ness is actually the only character that has a favorable match-up against Kirby in the Mid-Low tier and even then its more like a 55-45 or 60-40 which can still go either way. Ike is no problem for Kirby even though Ike should still be in the lower portion of the high tier. Ike has power, and true Ike players know how to get around his lag, but Kirby can still approach him with little problem, gimp him at extremely low %, and comboes him as he does with all heavy characters.
And to say that Falco has a favorable match-up to Kirby is just irresponsible. Kirby can combo him from 0% - 50%, gets out of his CG at low %, can easily DI towards Falco and airdodge to counter his dash cancel, comboes easily in general due to Falco's gravity, Gimps him easily, outprioritizes his attacks, and can duck his lasers. Kirby is a tough match-up for Kirby any day of the week.
Zelda, Snake, Toon Link and GaW fall into the same category as Ness with the 55-45 or 60-40 favor whereas depending on how Snake plays, may actually be at a disadvantage.
Pikachu, MK, Ice Climbers, and Lucas are COUNTERS to Kirby meaning that even if they were low tier, they would still **** Kirby. By counter I mean that they have roughly a 75-25 or 80-20 advantage. Not to mention that I said Kirby should be at the bottom of the high tier and that these are the only match-ups that are more than 60-40 in the opponent's favor. Not to mention that Kirby also has some favorable match-ups in the higher tiers as well. Kirby = bottom of High Tier, you apparently don't know anyone who can play a good Kirby. Try looking in the Kirby Video Archive Thread if you still have any doubt.
Yuna-Maria
Smash Ace
Eh, I hear so many different things about Game & Watch that I don't know what to think. He's good stuff for sure, though, I agree. I wouldn't say that he's solid third, though. I'd give that spot to Toon Link or Princess Marth. R.O.B. is up in the air for me. He's one of only two characters I know of that are actually at an advantage versus Snake, the other being Mr. Game & Watch. However, certain other characters rip him up pretty bad. I don't know how he is vs. Samus in terms of matchups, but I've never met a R.O.B. player that could beat me and my trusty zair.
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
i guess no one likes IC
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
and yoshi isint bottom>.<
Here is something for you guys to tear apart.
Top:
Snake
MK
High-High:
G&W
Marth
ROB
Falco
Mid-High:
Toon Link
Dedede
Climbers
Low-High:
Pikachu
Zelda
Mid High:
Pit
Diddy Kong
Zamus
Fox
Wario
Olimar
Luigi
Mid Mid:
Wolf
Kirby
Squirtle*
Lucario
Ike
Lucas
Low Mid:
Sheik
Charizard*
Ness
Mario
DK
Bowser
Ptrainer (composite)
Low:
Sonic
Peach
Link
Yoshi
Very low:
C.Falcon
Ivysaur*
Samus
G-dorf
Jiggly
Top:
Snake
MK
High-High:
G&W
Marth
ROB
Falco
Mid-High:
Toon Link
Dedede
Climbers
Low-High:
Pikachu
Zelda
Mid High:
Pit
Diddy Kong
Zamus
Fox
Wario
Olimar
Luigi
Mid Mid:
Wolf
Kirby
Squirtle*
Lucario
Ike
Lucas
Low Mid:
Sheik
Charizard*
Ness
Mario
DK
Bowser
Ptrainer (composite)
Low:
Sonic
Peach
Link
Yoshi
Very low:
C.Falcon
Ivysaur*
Samus
G-dorf
Jiggly
SwordmasterXXXI
Smash Journeyman
Move DK, Diddy, Olimar, and Wolf up. Also, R.O.B and Toon Link should switch places.
I was debating putting DK a little higher but I'm not sure if he's quite good enough to be in the high tier largely due to low KO potential. Same thing with Olimar and his gimpable recovery. I think Wolf's kind of overrated I was considering him one tier higher but I decided on the lower one instead.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
I think Link should be higher. He has a lot of Advanced Techniques. His recovery/approach aren't rated that high, but I still think is a solid character.
PIMPSLAP
Smash Lord
kirby pwns everyone
nuts you played me....
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'd move zelda up and DDD down too
DarkKnight077
Smash Lord
Well I haven't done low yet. Here I go.
Low Teir:
Link
Shiek
DK
Luigi
Bowser
Yoshi
Ivysauar
Sonic is not low.
Sonic is mid-low to mid-mid. =/
You just don't know how to use him correctly.
Low Teir:
Link
Shiek
DK
Luigi
Bowser
Yoshi
Ivysauar
Sonic is not low.
Sonic is mid-low to mid-mid. =/
You just don't know how to use him correctly.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
she doesn't really have any special trouble with pit,
nor does she falco, snake , meta knight, ROB, pikachu, toon link or ice climbers.
she actually has a rather sizable advantage adainst DDD... all of whom you ranked above her.
the only ones you have above her that actually have advantages are G&W and Marth... and they aren't huge advantages anyhow... especially G&W... just sayin'
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