Not a Tier List: Montage's Character ratings: New Info: Meta, Sonic, Snake, Lucario

[Zenjamin]

Why do people buy into this crap just wait to YOU get the game and YOU can see how is good based on YOUR skills not some person that you have no clue how good they are

so you are not here to contribute information of your own to the community.
you dont belive in learning from the experence of others unless you have the game yourself.
you dont have anything intellegent to contribute... why exactly would you post on the forums and waste your precious time again?

... O , ya, thats right.
go away troll

 

[sirmackerel]

I'm still begging for a tidbit or morsel about Toon Link's "0 to death" combo, dmbrandon. You can't hide it forever! <_<

 

[Flaminglink]

It's mostle how you play.. if you are good then i wont matter what character you pick, as long as you can master them and play the best you can.

 

[Grandeza]

how is luigi heavier than wario?

 

[spindash]

Oh...he's terrible. Wait...what?

Oh god I'm thinking too hard. I need to sit down.

I think what he meant by being terrible and being good at the same time is that to use him as effectively as you could, you're going to need a hell of a load of patience in order to master Snake; if you don't devote, you're screwed. Unlike the other characters in the game, Snake is the most strategy-orientated. You need to predict your opponents well, and make sure that your minegames with him are top-notch. VERY tactical, but it pays off when you can do it.

Just like Snake in the Metal Gear/Metal Gear Solid games, you need to use your head to use him.

 

[Requiem]

Gannons power is over 9000...


That made my day

 

[dmbrandon]

I'm still begging for a tidbit or morsel about Toon Link's "0 to death" combo, dmbrandon. You can't hide it forever! <_<

Vids up of my TL tomorrow. Prepare your mind for the awesomeness.

I think what he meant by being terrible and being good at the same time is that to use him as effectively as you could, you're going to need a hell of a load of patience in order to master Snake; if you don't devote, you're screwed. Unlike the other characters in the game, Snake is the most strategy-orientated. You need to predict your opponents well, and make sure that your minegames with him are top-notch. VERY tactical, but it pays off when you can do it.

Just like Snake in the Metal Gear/Metal Gear Solid games, you need to use your head to use him.

I think he was kidding.

Gannons power is over 9000...


That made my day

^_~

 

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

Yoshi:
Yoshi. is. (Still.) the. worst. All moves have been nerfed, it seems. Still no recovery. No DJC makes him to slow and easy to kill. Without DI Airdodging, he's a joke.
Edit 1: His double jump has half as many juggernaut frames as melee, however, he can use his UB two times. His Uair, and Bair have no lag on landing, and the Bair does pretty sick damage. The Fsmashes range was decreased, but it will ko at around 110% all in all. +2.0
Power: 5
Combo ability: 5
Speed: 5
Knockback: 4
Weight: 5
Recovery: 3
Rating: 3/10

You obviously don't play Yoshi.

I invite you to the Brawl Yoshi Board to learn why we (fellow Yoshi mainers) think Yoshi may actually be a decent character this time around.

 

[sirmackerel]

I will be sure to mentally prepare myself for tomorrow.

 

[Lunar6]

I can't see how the Link being nerfed thing comes around. Of all the combos he's lost since Melee(one), it's due to the increase in knockback and/or speed. The d-throw to utilt which was lost is now a d-throw to Side B to dash A. That's because, as a generalization, the utilt which offered juggling in Melee, now offers Star KO's in Brawl. Even agianst the heavier characters, it alone did a number (of course, his Up Smash which now keeps the characters in place for all three hits nearly all of the time, coupled with higher knockback at below a 100 damage percentage, makes for a decent priority to finish off all but only the heaviest characters). I see more people getting killed BY Link before he's liable for a star KO.

That, and he still fast-falls well, his sex kick still shows good power, his bombs can actually kill you, and his uair shows no signs of change for better or worse (meaning Star KO is still in the question for it).

 

[dmbrandon]

You obviously don't play Yoshi.

I invite you to the Brawl Yoshi Board to learn why we (fellow Yoshi mainers) think Yoshi may actually be a decent character this time around.

You can only compare yoshi when you're playing against good people. If you're playing with a tourney going crew, then come back, and explain to me either here, or in a pm. I don't go to the yoshi board.

I can't see how the Link being nerfed thing comes around. Of all the combos he's lost since Melee(one), it's due to the increase in knockback and/or speed. The d-throw to utilt which was lost is now a d-throw to Side B to dash A. That's because, as a generalization, the utilt which offered juggling in Melee, now offers Star KO's in Brawl. Even agianst the heavier characters, it alone did a number (of course, his Up Smash which now keeps the characters in place for all three hits nearly all of the time, coupled with higher knockback at below a 100 damage percentage, makes for a decent priority to finish off all but only the heaviest characters). I see more people getting killed BY Link before he's liable for a star KO.

That, and he still fast-falls well, his sex kick still shows good power, his bombs can actually kill you, and his uair shows no signs of change for better or worse (meaning Star KO is still in the question for it).

Spamerer (Whose Link is WAY too good in melee) even said that as of now, he's different, but not in a good way. When you play it, you'll understand

 

[Blarfenzo]

Thanks a lot for posting your opinions on chars.
It's good to see that it's more balanced than melee, and that out of the few I want to use (DDD, Bowser, Wario, Ness) They all seem at least playable with DDD being great.

 

[Yoshi'stheBombers7]

You can only compare yoshi when you're playing against good people. If you're playing with a tourney going crew, then come back, and explain to me either here, or in a pm. I don't go to the yoshi board.

You said his F Smash was decreased. I know for a fact it isn't. All his other moves (except the Dair and Side B, wich can grab the stage, but is even worse and is terrible for recovering) were buffed WITH RANGE. Not attack power (although sorta), but range. That's the big thing. At least put that down.

Sorry if my previous post made me look like a monkey in a anger fit, but some things you put down I believe can be changed. Even if he still doesn't do well against human players, that's fine, but at least put it where he recieved the valueble buffs, but it wasn't enough to save Yoshi from Bottom Tier.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yeah. Also, I wonder why you listed Lucario's smash range as being a problem, since he actually gets a lot of great disjointed hitboxes on his side and down smash that go way out past his body.

Oh, and Lucas's up smash can be used out of a shield after a blocked attack. And it works.

 

[PilotEvan]

I honestly don't see why everyone's getting worked up over personal impressions. If you don't like them, you can make up your own impressions when you've played it.

 

[dmbrandon]

You said his F Smash was decreased. I know for a fact it isn't. All his other moves (except the Dair and Side B, wich can grab the stage, but is even worse and is terrible for recovering) were buffed WITH RANGE. Not attack power (although sorta), but range. That's the big thing. At least put that down.

Sorry if my previous post made me look like a monkey in a anger fit, but some things you put down I believe can be changed. Even if he still doesn't do well against human players, that's fine, but at least put it where he recieved the valueble buffs, but it wasn't enough to save Yoshi from Bottom Tier.

When you play the game, come back and talk to me. Watching videos doesn't make your claims.

Yeah. Also, I wonder why you listed Lucario's smash range as being a problem, since he actually gets a lot of great disjointed hitboxes on his side and down smash that go way out past his body.

Oh, and Lucas's up smash can be used out of a shield after a blocked attack. And it works.

Lucario's approach is lame, making the range of the smashes all that more important.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Yes, but his smashes actually have very good range. It's been confirmed that the hitbox for his down smash extends WAY beyond the aura puffs on either side, it's basically an Fsmash on either side.

 

[dmbrandon]

Yes, but his smashes actually have very good range. It's been confirmed that the hitbox for his down smash extends WAY beyond the aura puffs on either side, it's basically an Fsmash on either side.

That doesn't make him great though. I still feel he has an appropriate rating!

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I think he deserves at least a 7.

But then again, everybody seems to be playing him the wrong way. I see Lucario players mostly just smashing around and hoping for a hit. His excellent tilts and basic combo are mostly ignored (especially his up tilt, which is amazing) and I haven't seen anyone use his >B grab properly at close range.

On top of that, his counter attack should really be seeing more play. There are tons of Lucario matches I've watched where I would have instinctively pressed down B as soon as I saw an incoming attack. Strangely though, as is the case with Marth and Ike's down B, people just forget it exists. :/

I really think you guys should test him more.

 

[freeman123]

Wtf does "0 death people" mean?

 

[True Fool]

Good read. Not perfect, but sounds more balanced then Melee. Too bad for Yoshi though. If we're lucky, maybe someone will find something good about him.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Wtf does "0 death people" mean?

by "0 to death" he means that Toon Link sometimes can combo people from zero damage right into a KO.

I don't really believe it's truly a 0 death, but I'll bet that whatever it is, it's surely nasty! Toon Link is great.

 

[Zenjamin]

So space mains both wolf and Snake with DDD as secondary?
thats good, i was thinking about seconding snake, but I thought you might have to devote yourself to him.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I want to see more vids of Space's Wolf. No doubt he's gotten better. That would be quite something to watch.

 

[Sharky]

Having played as mostly yoshi for the past few days and having had wifi experience against melee pros in a crew, I'd like to say that your yoshi ratings are flawed. I am not going to write an essay or anything of the sort right now, as I'm rather tired and want to sleep, but as yoshibomber said earlier, check out the yoshi brawl forums. I've written at least a page's worth of stuff there on the subject of his changes, scattered across a few threads. I'll understand if you don't want to go over there, but the greater part of my work is there. I'll probably post more here tomorrow to back my statement.

For now I'll just give a couple brief points. First off, Yoshi's b-up is not limited to two consecutive uses. In fact, I've regularly used it three or four times. Admittedly, it does wear greatly by the fourth time, but by that point, all I need is a little bit of horizontal movement, anyway. With some skill, you can ward any would-be edgeguarders away with those eggs during your recovery, allowing for a safe landing.

Secondly, I see no reason for you to say that all, most, or even half of his moves have been nerfed. In my experience, other than his lack of DJC (more on that later,) most of his moves have been buffed. This is particularly evident in his aerials and tail-using attacks. His tail has become a decent amoung longer, giving him reach that often makes the difference in close match-ups. His f-tilt is a completely different attack, one that has more range and combo ability (f-tilt to f-tilt to upsmash works wonders on low damages.) His yoshi bomb now hits on the way up, serving as a decent intercept for would-be aerial attackers, and stopping them just enough so that they almost always will be hit by the decent, guaranteeing some decent damage and knock-up. His boot also gets bigger in his nair than in melee, and has simillar properties. His grabbing range has increased slightly, and due to the lack of l-cancelling, shield grabbing is more of an option now. Despite the floatiness of the game, I've still been able to use the down-throw to combo effectively. His f-smash has lost a small amount of range, but it still has decent range, and very nice power.

I will agree with you on the issue of his double jump super armor, though. It's lost a good amount of it's charm. Though with its increased speed, his b-up recovery, and auto edge grabbing, this is somewhat less of an issue. The lack of DJC is his biggest drawback in brawl, I'm still experimenting with that, He still has a quicker edgehog than everyone else's auto edge-grab by a little bit, though.

Other than the yoshi section, I did enjoy your analysis, good job. =) I hope I don't come across as attacking you or anything, just putting my playing experience out there for review.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

This should be an interesting argument.

 

[Proven]

As Gimpy said a few pages back, test out Wario Waft. I'm certain it can be done in the air, great for recovery, but is there any way to charge it faster (I'm thinking either from biting enemies, or biting items like Wario's Bike in pieces).

 

[Lunar6]

Spamerer (Whose Link is WAY too good in melee) even said that as of now, he's different, but not in a good way. When you play it, you'll understand

It's been stressed by too many up to now: It's NOT Melee we're speaking of. I hear talk of a floatier Link from you. The game as a whole is floatier than Melee. What I want to know right now, is Mr. Spamerer's playstyle, because for all we know, it may differentiate from a character as fundamentally unchanged as Link (in terms of basic attacks, and not drastically comparing speed and/or power) in Brawl moreso than my own playstyle would. Because what's been shown to me as of recently were players who used as many bombs as Aniki, and I actually saw a few arrows fly across the screen. What I also saw, was some overall unhindered recovery onto a stage from otherwise fatal blows (with damage borderlining 170% to 190% no less, which, to me implies, that Link can't be TOO much lighter since Melee). All I see is a more single-strike inclined Link with a standard B that's a little more effective against people with the IQ of at least a level 5 CPU. I'll let the metagame standards judge whether or not that's a bad thing before judging it myself.

To your own credit, I do hope that I can come to agree with what you say on Wolf, because from what little I've seen of him, I may end up with at least four mains this time around.

 

[maian]

What annoys me in this thread is all the people who haven't played the game telling him that he's wrong, or that he needs to "change the scores", because their favorite character isn't getting a good enough score from their video analysis'. Am I the only one that's taking his word for it that these are fairly accurate for the time being? Yes, there are a few here and there than, when handled with a pro, are probably much better (Yoshi).

And no, I'm not saying this just because my favorite and most anticipated character, Toon Link, is being called best in the game. In all honesty, I'd rather have him be worse, so I'm not playing with a Fox when I end up maining him.

By the way, DmBrandon, I, as others apparently are having some trouble with the "0-Death" term. (Although I know it's meaning now) Just a simple idea, maybe you should put it as "0 - Death" or "0 to Death" to make it more understandable. I figured it out after thinking about it (although I asked for confirmation), but I think doing one of those would at least make it easier to understand right away. :X

 

[freeman123]

Why does Yoshi keep getting worse in every Smash Bros. game? You'd think they'd try to improve him or something. Maybe Sakurai secretly hates Yoshi.

Maybe there will be a whole new tier called "Yoshi tier" just for Yoshi.

 

[Losnar]

Why is DeDeDe's recovery 10??

It's not as good as Luigi's, Metaknights, and more.

Proof here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142017


Also, Snake's recovery shouldn't be 8, since it's been found that you can throw/kill him out of it.

 

[freeman123]

Why is DeDeDe's recovery 10??

It's not as good as Luigi's, Metaknights, and more.

Proof here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142017


Also, Snake's recovery shouldn't be 8, since it's been found that you can throw/kill him out of it.

Snake's recovery is 8 because it's terrible, but **** is it good.

 

[dmbrandon]

Having played as mostly yoshi for the past few days and having had wifi experience against melee pros in a crew, I'd like to say that your yoshi ratings are flawed. I am not going to write an essay or anything of the sort right now, as I'm rather tired and want to sleep, but as yoshibomber said earlier, check out the yoshi brawl forums. I've written at least a page's worth of stuff there on the subject of his changes, scattered across a few threads. I'll understand if you don't want to go over there, but the greater part of my work is there. I'll probably post more here tomorrow to back my statement.

For now I'll just give a couple brief points. First off, Yoshi's b-up is not limited to two consecutive uses. In fact, I've regularly used it three or four times. Admittedly, it does wear greatly by the fourth time, but by that point, all I need is a little bit of horizontal movement, anyway. With some skill, you can ward any would-be edgeguarders away with those eggs during your recovery, allowing for a safe landing.

Secondly, I see no reason for you to say that all, most, or even half of his moves have been nerfed. In my experience, other than his lack of DJC (more on that later,) most of his moves have been buffed. This is particularly evident in his aerials and tail-using attacks. His tail has become a decent amoung longer, giving him reach that often makes the difference in close match-ups. His f-tilt is a completely different attack, one that has more range and combo ability (f-tilt to f-tilt to upsmash works wonders on low damages.) His yoshi bomb now hits on the way up, serving as a decent intercept for would-be aerial attackers, and stopping them just enough so that they almost always will be hit by the decent, guaranteeing some decent damage and knock-up. His boot also gets bigger in his nair than in melee, and has simillar properties. His grabbing range has increased slightly, and due to the lack of l-cancelling, shield grabbing is more of an option now. Despite the floatiness of the game, I've still been able to use the down-throw to combo effectively. His f-smash has lost a small amount of range, but it still has decent range, and very nice power.

I will agree with you on the issue of his double jump super armor, though. It's lost a good amount of it's charm. Though with its increased speed, his b-up recovery, and auto edge grabbing, this is somewhat less of an issue. The lack of DJC is his biggest drawback in brawl, I'm still experimenting with that, He still has a quicker edgehog than everyone else's auto edge-grab by a little bit, though.

Other than the yoshi section, I did enjoy your analysis, good job. =) I hope I don't come across as attacking you or anything, just putting my playing experience out there for review.

Basing your claims on playing over laggy wifi completely discredits you. I've played online, and without the american servers up, host has a SEVER advantage. I have taken your words into account, but the fact is, as of now, no one is WORSE! I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm saying he's not as good as the rest of the cast. He's easily gimped, easily combo'd, and easily killed. Besides his Bair, he has no approach, and you can't throw reverse eggs anymore.

As Gimpy said a few pages back, test out Wario Waft. I'm certain it can be done in the air, great for recovery, but is there any way to charge it faster (I'm thinking either from biting enemies, or biting items like Wario's Bike in pieces).

So far, I see no difference.

It's been stressed by too many up to now: It's NOT Melee we're speaking of. I hear talk of a floatier Link from you. The game as a whole is floatier than Melee. What I want to know right now, is Mr. Spamerer's playstyle, because for all we know, it may differentiate from a character as fundamentally unchanged as Link (in terms of basic attacks, and not drastically comparing speed and/or power) in Brawl moreso than my own playstyle would. Because what's been shown to me as of recently were players who used as many bombs as Aniki, and I actually saw a few arrows fly across the screen. What I also saw, was some overall unhindered recovery onto a stage from otherwise fatal blows (with damage borderlining 170% to 190% no less, which, to me implies, that Link can't be TOO much lighter since Melee). All I see is a more single-strike inclined Link with a standard B that's a little more effective against people with the IQ of at least a level 5 CPU. I'll let the metagame standards judge whether or not that's a bad thing before judging it myself.

To your own credit, I do hope that I can come to agree with what you say on Wolf, because from what little I've seen of him, I may end up with at least four mains this time around.

He's only good in the right hands. When it comes down to it, people that will be ranked higher will beat him regularly.

Why is DeDeDe's recovery 10??

It's not as good as Luigi's, Metaknights, and more.

Proof here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142017


Also, Snake's recovery shouldn't be 8, since it's been found that you can throw/kill him out of it.

Dedede has to be wall/star ko'd. 90% of the time, he can get back.

Luigi can be gimped easily. Metaknight has falling state and a ton of lag afterward. If he's low, he can't reach ledges.

Snake, if you hit him out of it, he can do it again.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Actually, it's been found that if you GRAB Snake's camera off him, he can't do it again and falls to his death.

This means that Snake can't recover close to the ledge.

 

[dmbrandon]

Actually, it's been found that if you GRAB Snake's camera off him, he can't do it again and falls to his death.

This means that Snake can't recover close to the ledge.

That changes nothing. if you're that close, you WILL grab the ledge. And if you're that close, and low, you deserve to die. If you scoop around the side, you'll be fine.

 

[Luigi player]

So right now the list from top to bottom is:

9.5: Marth, Toon Link
9: Wolf, Diddy
8.5: Falco, Fox
8: Olimar, Dedede, Samus, ROB, Lucas, Pit
7.5: Zelda, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ness, Ike
7: Sheik, Luigi, Peach, C. Falcon, Ivysaur
6.5: DK, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Charizard, G&W
6: Wario, Mario, Lucario, Jigglypuff
5.5: ZSS
5: Link, Bowser, IC
3: Yoshi

?: Sonic, Snake, Kirby


But one thing I don't get... Why is Yoshi 3 when only his recovery is 3 and everything else more than 3? He should at least be 4.

 

[dmbrandon]

So right now the list from top to bottom is:

9.5: Marth, Toon Link
9: Wolf, Diddy
8.5: Falco, Fox
8: Olimar, Dedede, Samus, ROB, Lucas, Pit
7.5: Zelda, Pikachu, Squirtle, Ness, Ike
7: Sheik, Luigi, Peach, C. Falcon, Ivysaur
6.5: DK, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Charizard, G&W
6: Wario, Mario, Lucario, Jigglypuff
5.5: ZSS
5: Link, Bowser, IC
3: Yoshi

?: Sonic, Snake, Kirby


But one thing I don't get... Why is Yoshi 3 when only his recovery is 3 and everything else more than 3? He should at least be 4.

Please read the notes in the first post.

 

[Savez]

Olimar:
Ever see someone do 100% in less than 7 seconds without items? I have..

Sorry if someone already ask for it but can you post the video you're talking about?

asking the same of yesterday hoping that somebody answer me....

 

[dmbrandon]

Sorry if someone already ask for it but can you post the video you're talking about?

asking the same of yesterday hoping that somebody answer me....

No video. Ninja edd did it to me. I was appalled.

 

[fadam]

Just out of curiosity, what is it about Wario that makes him the master of the air? You mentioned that all his moves can K.O into something, can you elaborate?

When I played as him I found that his recovery was pretty lousy, but you gave it a high score. I guess I was just doing it wrong