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Not a Tier List: Montage's Character ratings: New Info: Meta, Sonic, Snake, Lucario

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Sharky

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
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Syracuse, NY
dmbrandon said:
Basing your claims on playing over laggy wifi completely discredits you. I've played online, and without the american servers up, host has a SEVER advantage. I have taken your words into account, but the fact is, as of now, no one is WORSE! I'm not saying he's terrible, I'm saying he's not as good as the rest of the cast. He's easily gimped, easily combo'd, and easily killed. Besides his Bair, he has no approach, and you can't throw reverse eggs anymore.
This was a series of matches between people in the same state with a green connection (very little lag either way.) We had communication between each other via IRC to verify this with each other.

You specifically say in your ratings that yoshi was nerfed overall. If that's not saying he's worse then I don't know what is.

Yoshi's better approaches include not only the bair, but eggs (which can develop a very nice mind-game, indeed,) a dash attack that stays out there for a long time compared to most characters', a very nice dash grab provided you know not to do it at point blank range, and his other aerials that have good priority in their own right. In my experience, he's one of the harder characters to combo. Yoshi's double jump still has super armor when it counts to get him out of aerial combos, when combined with proper DI. His shield not shrinking around him as it gets weaker prevents opponents from sneaking a hit on him, and I'm not gonna go into the l-cancelling/sheild grabbing stuff again.

You strike me as one of those people who hasn't played a yoshi that knows that he's doing before, and therefore put yoshi at the bottom of the pack in melee. You offer no specific evidence to counter what I've posted, or anyone else that has talked about yoshi. It doesn't seem very convincing for your case that you've tried to discredit everyone who's gone against you on your judgement with yoshi, however valid his arguement is.

I'd appreciate it if you were to actually reply to my gameplay comments, next time you reply, rather than bash what I've done and skirt around the essentials by restating what you said in the first post. Thanks for your time.
 

FiveLeafClover

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
25
Location
NSW, Australia
I noticed while watching some SSE vids of Yoshi's section that you *can* DJC to some extent. While you are unable to do it instantly, I believe that as soon as your super armour frames are over (perhaps even slightly before then) you can attack, meaning he actually does have some form of aerial game.

He seems to be playable at least now, not quite as gimped as before.

I don't know how many frames of super armour you get (it's nowhere near as long as it used to be making him incredibly easy to edgeguard), but Yoshi was definitely able to attack out of his midair jump about a half to one second after starting his jump.
 

Nicktendo

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
946
Location
San Diego, CA
Any new Dedede info with testing? Or can you soon. I want to know how you guys feel about him after some more matches, like is he combo'd way too easy because of his size?

Also Im curious on more testing on wolf and diddy to see if you guys still think them as high as they are :)

These are the top 3 I look forward to playing as
 

Losnar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
384
Location
Philly
Please explain how Luigi can be gimped easily. If someone knows what they're doing he's got one of the best recoveries.
 

Finn Macool

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
104
very good list surprised by olimar's power rating, that little ******* packs a hell of a punch
 

_X_

Smash Lord
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Jan 30, 2006
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Australia, Victoria, Melbourne East
what does 'gimped', 'DI', 'UB' and 'SB' stand for and mean?

Thanks :)
If a character is gimped, best example is Peach's turnips, they're not exactly spiked or anything their recovery is just halted (NOT EDGE GUARDING) and hence they fall closer to death.

DI is Directional Influence and it is ESSENTIAL to play and of the three smash games at any kind of even okay level. If you couldn't tell from the name DI is the influence in the direction in which you hold the control. You DI toward the stage when smashed away to recover, but it goes much deeper than that. There are a ton of threads on it, look around.

UB or Up B is simply your Up B recovery attack.

SB or Side B is your Side B attack.
 

gnosis

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
1,148
Location
meridian ID
ohhh
ok thank you
not used to the abbreviations ;/
Actually to be 'gimped' is to be killed at a very low percent, usually referring to when the kill comes from very effective/'cheap' edge guarding, though there are other instances (you generally don't say you were gimped if you suicide at zero, but getting killed by Marth's fsmash at 40% is sometimes called a gimp, etc.).

The best example is not Peach's turnips. That'd go to Fox's shinespike, the iconic 'gimp' move.

Another good example is Captain Falcon, who is notorious for -being- gimped.

edit: Not correcting you, just informing you, since the other guy seems to have told you wrong.
 

Junglechief

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
22
Looking at those averages it would seem to be more balanced than melee. The things that worry me though is how could the ice climbers and yoshi be that bad. Not that im doubting you, it just that with most of the cast falling into that nice 6-8 range, without characters that are completely unusable, I hope tactics are discovered to bring IC and yoshi to at least an average. That would make things very promising for the competative scene. Even though I played marth for the longest time I got tired of seeing the same characters again and again at higher levels of play.
 

Tanea

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
515
Location
denver co
What annoys me in this thread is all the people who haven't played the game telling him that he's wrong, or that he needs to "change the scores", because their favorite character isn't getting a good enough score from their video analysis'. Am I the only one that's taking his word for it that these are fairly accurate for the time being? Yes, there are a few here and there than, when handled with a pro, are probably much better (Yoshi).

what annoys me are the people that say that he is right i mean i can't go either way
i havent played nor have i witness him playing so basiclly ur listening to him just cause he says that he knows well lets all just confrom to just one person "facts" and become his slaves don't forget that everyone has a right to whatever they want including how they dont believe him so as far as you not enjoying everyone has to say then your in the wrong place that is what froums are for ............sorry to the creator but there is not point in spamming about other spammers (does that make sense) oh well just take in the thread for what it is worth




This was a series of matches between people in the same state with a green connection (very little lag either way.) We had communication between each other via IRC to verify this with each other.

You specifically say in your ratings that yoshi was nerfed overall. If that's not saying he's worse then I don't know what is.

Yoshi's better approaches include not only the bair, but eggs (which can develop a very nice mind-game, indeed,) a dash attack that stays out there for a long time compared to most characters', a very nice dash grab provided you know not to do it at point blank range, and his other aerials that have good priority in their own right. In my experience, he's one of the harder characters to combo. Yoshi's double jump still has super armor when it counts to get him out of aerial combos, when combined with proper DI. His shield not shrinking around him as it gets weaker prevents opponents from sneaking a hit on him, and I'm not gonna go into the l-cancelling/sheild grabbing stuff again.

You strike me as one of those people who hasn't played a yoshi that knows that he's doing before, and therefore put yoshi at the bottom of the pack in melee. You offer no specific evidence to counter what I've posted, or anyone else that has talked about yoshi. It doesn't seem very convincing for your case that you've tried to discredit everyone who's gone against you on your judgement with yoshi, however valid his arguement is.

I'd appreciate it if you were to actually reply to my gameplay comments, next time you reply, rather than bash what I've done and skirt around the essentials by restating what you said in the first post. Thanks for your time.


i agree with everything that he said realize that ur going to say that i havent played the game bla bla bla but dont' forget that his side b has gotten better with both knockback, priority and damage. and his b up had been proven to be both a verticle and horizontal move .not to mention his eggs theyv have been apart of him from one day and still add to that and i really don't that you can reverse your eggs but nevermind that. there are several video where yoshis recovery range has come into play and have proven themselfs again and again so i dont see why his recovery is a 3 that just ignorant. well t ake this for what you will i just wan to help you see this veiw point which i understand isn't very credible cause i havent played but that doesn't that it is completely wrong


also off topic i reaize that this comes into a item play situation but don't you think that FInal Smash should be in also with that being said

back to topic with that being said that if are going to discredit yoshi for his lack of adv techs then you should credit him for his new tech footstool, crawlig ect. and not just for yoshi but for everyones else as well
 

SuperLink9

Smash Lord
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SuperLink9
Wow! These impressions are certainly a big shock! I can't BELIEVE how much Zelda seems to have been buffed, and Toon Link viable for best in game? Maybe I should be happy he's still a clone, yet again in my eyes he's main potential :laugh:

Shame to hear about Peach I guess though, and it's good to hear that average/bad characters have newfound strong points, like Ganondorf.

Fox still one of the best? :laugh: why am I not surprised?

Argh, can't wait to get my hands on this game. Balancing sounds pretty good really.
 

mosk123

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
274
Actually to be 'gimped' is to be killed at a very low percent, usually referring to when the kill comes from very effective/'cheap' edge guarding, though there are other instances (you generally don't say you were gimped if you suicide at zero, but getting killed by Marth's fsmash at 40% is sometimes called a gimp, etc.).

The best example is not Peach's turnips. That'd go to Fox's shinespike, the iconic 'gimp' move.

Another good example is Captain Falcon, who is notorious for -being- gimped.

edit: Not correcting you, just informing you, since the other guy seems to have told you wrong.


ohh i get it.
makes sense

thanks
:)
 

AlphaDragoon2002

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
925
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Phoenix, AZ
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AlphaDragoon02
Wow! These impressions are certainly a big shock! I can't BELIEVE how much Zelda seems to have been nerfed, and Toon Link viable for best in game? Maybe I should be happy he's still a clone, yet again in my eyes he's main potential :laugh:
...wut? :confused:

Zelda got BUFFED. She's looking really good now.
 

Flaminglink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
264
Location
Toronto
They underated link. his power should be higher and his combo ability is above average, as well as his weight.
 

gamer8

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
Messages
1,988
Location
Sanford, FL
You gave some of my mains bad ratings... wtf... I don't care about these I'll main who I want. =/
 

dmbrandon

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
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3,257
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The Sun.
Just out of curiosity, what is it about Wario that makes him the master of the air? You mentioned that all his moves can K.O into something, can you elaborate?

When I played as him I found that his recovery was pretty lousy, but you gave it a high score. I guess I was just doing it wrong :p
His air DI is absurd, He could attack you with a full jump, and at the peak of it, could DI back, and be like, 20 feet away. It's bonkers.

This was a series of matches between people in the same state with a green connection (very little lag either way.) We had communication between each other via IRC to verify this with each other.

You specifically say in your ratings that yoshi was nerfed overall. If that's not saying he's worse then I don't know what is.

Yoshi's better approaches include not only the bair, but eggs (which can develop a very nice mind-game, indeed,) a dash attack that stays out there for a long time compared to most characters', a very nice dash grab provided you know not to do it at point blank range, and his other aerials that have good priority in their own right. In my experience, he's one of the harder characters to combo. Yoshi's double jump still has super armor when it counts to get him out of aerial combos, when combined with proper DI. His shield not shrinking around him as it gets weaker prevents opponents from sneaking a hit on him, and I'm not gonna go into the l-cancelling/sheild grabbing stuff again.

You strike me as one of those people who hasn't played a yoshi that knows that he's doing before, and therefore put yoshi at the bottom of the pack in melee. You offer no specific evidence to counter what I've posted, or anyone else that has talked about yoshi. It doesn't seem very convincing for your case that you've tried to discredit everyone who's gone against you on your judgement with yoshi, however valid his arguement is.

I'd appreciate it if you were to actually reply to my gameplay comments, next time you reply, rather than bash what I've done and skirt around the essentials by restating what you said in the first post. Thanks for your time.
Yoshi's egg recovery nerfed not only the length they go, but the power has been reduced. You have a lot of lag when you land, so if the egg is dodged, you're going to get punished.

About me playing yoshi: Moo, and Egm both live in nj. (Actually Moo left >_>) They're yoshi's take rounds off of high ranked players, and I consider them way too good.

The djc, as of now, is not existent. his approach is too slow to compete with faster/higher priority characters! His moveset will not allow him to put intense pressure on the enemy.

Still opinion, but I just can't see your logic. Play me on wifi. I wanna see what he can do. And trust me, I wanna raise his score. I, more than anyone, want everyone to be a 10!!!

I noticed while watching some SSE vids of Yoshi's section that you *can* DJC to some extent. While you are unable to do it instantly, I believe that as soon as your super armour frames are over (perhaps even slightly before then) you can attack, meaning he actually does have some form of aerial game.

He seems to be playable at least now, not quite as gimped as before.

I don't know how many frames of super armour you get (it's nowhere near as long as it used to be making him incredibly easy to edgeguard), but Yoshi was definitely able to attack out of his midair jump about a half to one second after starting his jump.
That's not dcj.

Wait...why is Yoshi's score still at 3/10 when you just gave him a +1 modifier for his tail approach? Shouldn't it be 4/10 now?
Will fix

Please explain how Luigi can be gimped easily. If someone knows what they're doing he's got one of the best recoveries.
If the side B is clashed, he drops rapidly, and it's easier to do this time.

This post also doesn't have Marth's neutral B recovery.
Yes it does!!

Is it still possible to upsmash out of shield?
They underated link. his power should be higher and his combo ability is above average, as well as his weight.
I got hit with link's Dair at 130% as TL on pictochat and lived. I killed him with a Dtilt as 110.
Just one example, I have plenty.

You gave some of my mains bad ratings... wtf... I don't care about these I'll main who I want. =/
Good for you! :D

I don't want to veer people away. I just wanna outline the game so far!
 

Mambo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
236
Just out of curiosity, what is it about Wario that makes him the master of the air? You mentioned that all his moves can K.O into something, can you elaborate?

When I played as him I found that his recovery was pretty lousy, but you gave it a high score. I guess I was just doing it wrong :p
His air DI is absurd, He could attack you with a full jump, and at the peak of it, could DI back, and be like, 20 feet away. It's bonkers.
Could you explain this one more time? I'm not quite following. What do you do at the peak of your jump? And could separate the answers.
Thanks for the thread and all the responses, good job.
Edit: Do you mean when he gets hit his DI is really good? And is this with air momentum canceling or without? And is this what makes his recovery so good, or is that a separate thing?
 

dmbrandon

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
3,257
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The Sun.
Could you explain this one more time? I'm not quite following. What do you do at the peak of your jump? And could separate the answers.
Thanks for the thread and all the responses, good job.
DI is directional influence. You know, the way you slam on the controller when you're gonna die? That works just as a means of moving about.

Wario's DI in the air is amazing. You couldhop oer bowser, go back over him, and back again, AND BACK AGAIN before you land.
 

Surgo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
125
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Sitting on the edge of time
Mambo said:
Could you explain this one more time? I'm not quite following. What do you do at the peak of your jump? And could separate the answers.
I think I get what is being said, and think that an example may aid you in your understanding. If you remember playing Jigglypuff in Melee at all, it seems kind of like that: massive control over how she moves in the air.
 

Mambo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
236
DI is directional influence. You know, the way you slam on the controller when you're gonna die? That works just as a means of moving about.

Wario's DI in the air is amazing. You couldhop oer bowser, go back over him, and back again, AND BACK AGAIN before you land.
Thanks, I think I get it now. It's just something I'll have try for myself once I get it to see if I'm thinking right. And is this why his recovery is good, because he can DI back the stage well and such?
 

dmbrandon

Smash Master
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The Sun.
Thanks, I think I get it now. It's just something I'll have try for myself once I get it to see if I'm thinking right. And is this why his recovery is good, because he can DI back the stage well and such?
that, anyone could do. With wario, you could hit someone ni the air, and then be so far away, you can't get punished when you land. It's just excellent.
 

Mambo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
236
that, anyone could do. With wario, you could hit someone ni the air, and then be so far away, you can't get punished when you land. It's just excellent.
Ah, thanks a lot. Really looking forward to playing as him and I try to get any tiny piece of info on him I can since there isn't much out there yet.
 

Smash Ninja

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
243
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Peacehaven, East Sussex, Good ol' England
Please do Kirby... please... :(

I love Kirby, he's been my main since 2003, and he's the only one you have'nt put on there! :crying:

WHYYYYYYYY?!?! YOU CRUEL HEARTLESS MONSTER!!! :cry:

Just look at him... c'mon, you knwo you want to...:kirby:

---

Anyway, mostly awesome overview, but I feel that you are scoring some characters slightly unfairly... most of them actually... I dunno, its just some of your character descriptions say that THEY ARE AWESOME and they get a UBER-MEH score. Also some are too high and some are too low, etc. But, despite my moaning, its still very good, and has a lot of useful info... and I guess te scoring isnt THAT bad... ok, it kinda bad, but not god-awful.

Add Kirby please... please... I might be less harsh if you do... slightly...

... y'know im still confused... WHY NO KIRBY??????????????
 

Grevling

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
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32
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that, anyone could do. With wario, you could hit someone ni the air, and then be so far away, you can't get punished when you land. It's just excellent.
Shouldn't he be a bit higher than a 6? Good combo ability and amazing DI make him seem a bit higher to me.

I've only seen people playing as Wario, so I'm not trying to argue. I'm just wondering with all the stuff that makes him really good, why only a 6?
 

dmbrandon

Smash Master
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The Sun.
Shouldn't he be a bit higher than a 6? Good combo ability and amazing DI make him seem a bit higher to me.

I've only seen people playing as Wario, so I'm not trying to argue. I'm just wondering with all the stuff that makes him really good, why only a 6?
his moves kinda suck, though. Hard to combo, and without good metagame, and spacing, you're going to get trashed.
 

chimpxstyle

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
32
Shouldn't he be a bit higher than a 6? Good combo ability and amazing DI make him seem a bit higher to me.

I've only seen people playing as Wario, so I'm not trying to argue. I'm just wondering with all the stuff that makes him really good, why only a 6?
The DI and such make him better, but his range and weight are still holding him back.
 

jwj442

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
212
Does this game seem more balanced overall than Melee so far? Obviously one can't expect it to be perfectly balanced, but I'm hoping for reasonable balance (better than Melee).
 

Ebonyks

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
160
Location
Puerto Rico
It seems that a trick for lucario was discovered that's significant enough for him to gain at least half a point.

THIS JUST IN, Buzz claims that Lucario can SHFFL! Because Lucario's dair stops all vertical momentum, one can use it to pound on shields and land with absolutely no lag. Here is an excerpt from our AIM convo:

Buzz: Suddenly it dawned on me: the momentum block would be ideal for ASCENDING.
MookieRah: dangz
Buzz: So, I started dashing at people, jumping, and doing the down-air a nanometer off the ground.
MookieRah: holy crap man, Lucario is top tier
Buzz: Since he doesn't fall during that time, he does the double kick seeming ON the ground...
MookieRah: It's like he has float canceling!
Buzz: And when he lands, virtually no lag. :D
Buzz: It is effective enough for three things.
Buzz: (1) - Opponents cannot shield grab it if you do this right.
Buzz: (2) - If Lucario shields an opponent attacking from behind, this "SHFFL" is fast enough to activate and punish that attacks. You just jump backwards to line up and do the down-air.
Buzz: (3) - It is just a great approach that makes Lucario fast.
Buzz: The beauty of all this is that the down-air is STRONG.
Buzz: It's not smash attack strong, but it is VERY good and CAN be a finisher at the right time.

So basically Lucario can jump and immediately dair and then land with no lag. It's sick people. Real sick.

Buzz also mentioned that Lucario's hitboxes are not just deceptively good, as they are also deceptively bad. In other words, sometimes things that look like they would hit don't. In his words "Lucario is tricky."
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140957
 
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