ness discussion

[weedwack]

Is it possible to do reactionary djc dair tech chases perfectly on any characters? an endless trap if you will, as long as hit stun lasts until they hit the floor. I cant seem to get it down with just dashing and d-airing, and I havent seen it used in any games.
if someone has a link to a game with perfect tech chases like that hook it up.

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

If it is, haven't seen it yet. I've seen people get out of the surest of dair's by either simple DI or just a counter (like falcon's up-smash). If it is possible, I'd LOVE to see it, though it might be highly circumstantial to the point of being unusable in competitive play.

 

[Peek~]

I dont play Hyrule, so the most I usually see is 2 reps. Even if it is Hyrule though its pretty tough to go past 2 against a good player.

It's more safer/reliable to go for some Uair combos instead or just grab them.

 

[weedwack]

the ness metagame will go nowhere if safety and reliability are priorities. I really really want a ness player to break through somehow. balls, i wish isai would play ness more often.

this is the best tech chasing ive seen, done with mario.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XqI172ENzI
at 3 minutes. I really think ness can do this too, Id like to see someone figure it out.

 

[asianaussie]

ness can theoretically get work done if he DJCs and moves slightly left/right and facing away from the target (reverse DJC is fairly fast), but even so I don't think it can be done on reaction

unless it's a little platform, eg. DL/Hyrule middle

 

[weedwack]

really? i feel like reverse djc is slighly faster than rolls and has the potential for perfect tech chases. i'll have to find someone to practice on, and have them roll in random directions so i can test it.

You know whats dope? f/nair chains to the ledge, a uair, then a grab. i did it in training mode a few times. im the man.

 

[asianaussie]

so, about this thread

ness has potential if you are a robot who can freeze time at will

otherwise he sorta sucks

 

[Sangoku]

What if the opponent tech roll to the side you're facing?

 

[asianaussie]

...then you do a standard forward hop djc aerial?

still not sure about how this works on reaction, but w/e

 

[weedwack]

if it is possible, there would be a specific distance from their landing zone where you could wait for them to land, facing away from the landing spot. when they land, if they role towards you, you dash the short distance forward and djc dair. if they role back or tech in place, djc reverse should hit both.

 

[Sangoku]

aa, as said in the above post, that would only work at a certain distance (if it works at all). But then, after dairing your opponent, how do you suddenly happen to change your position?

Oh or did you mean after a grounded dair only?

 

[asianaussie]

yeah, i meant d-air on a standing opponent

well, not exactly that, but ness has to be quite close to the ground

not possible to do it on reaction otherwise, too many variables

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

I suppose that platforms, then, are indeed the best way to chain together dair's on an opponent recovering from the last. Shorter distance = less chasing = better chance of getting multiple hits in there.

So question for an opinion: Do you prefer uair or dair?

 

[ballin4life]

dair has like 10x more hitstun, combos into more things, and has IMO a better hitbox for tech chasing

 

[asianaussie]

u-air is better for approaching and is obviously guaranteed damage from u-tilt and things

it's a question of situation

 

[ballin4life]

i thought we were talking about tech chases

uair is indeed better for approach IMO

 

[asianaussie]

oh nah, i just took his question as widely as possible

 

[The Star King]

Is it possible to do reactionary djc dair tech chases perfectly on any characters? an endless trap if you will, as long as hit stun lasts until they hit the floor. I cant seem to get it down with just dashing and d-airing, and I havent seen it used in any games.
if someone has a link to a game with perfect tech chases like that hook it up.

Sorry for being late

But even if one could consistently cover every tech option with dair (which I doubt anyone could), the victim can techroll to the edge of the platform and then DI the dair to the side so that he will not land on the platform

So it will not be "an endless trap as long as hitstun lasts until they reach the floor". You can always force the techchase to end that way. Although most Ness players will just grab you and at that point you will have probably suffered a considerable amount of punishment.

 

[weedwack]

I didn't mean over a platform, i meant over the ground. I guess they could still di to the side, but then they would be getting spiked?

on dreamland, its only really practical to tech chase until they role under a platform, at which point you could spike>grab on the platform, then ledgeguard.

on hyrule, if you could tech chase until they role under the platforms, you could get a sweet uair combo, although it would unlikely finish them.

 

[clubbadubba]

On the ground eh? Now you gotta worry about covering reverse ledge di when you dair them on the edge. Hell they could prolly force themselves onto the DL platforms that way, and di away from there

 

[The Star King]

Oh OK. Then what you want is even more unrealistic than I thought lol, sorry. You're definitely not going to be doing endless techchases on the ground.

If you're gonna do long techchases anywhere, it's on platforms, because the sides limit the tech distance

clubba I'm not sure reverse ledge DI would help against spikes?

 

[weedwack]

http://i.imgur.com/BD0js.png

 

[asianaussie]

alright

go ahead and try for your endless techchasing on the hyrule middle platform

we gon naysay all day

 

[Sangoku]

...will only lead to noobs thinking they know everything trying to prove their point. For example in the msn chat some time ago, someone said a bomb throw on a shield lead to a guaranteed grab with Link. Even when we said he was wrong, he was like no I think it's legit, etc. So if already in an objective fact like that some people can't admit the truth, what is it going to be with more subtle/subjective things like matchups/spacing or I don't know what?

Exactly what I was talking about...

 

[sharksquail]

clubba I'm not sure reverse ledge DI would help against spikes?

I've done it once on console (wish I had a vid of it), but I don't think it's a tactic you can rely on. You almost always end up just bouncing down and way from the level to far to recover anyway, unless you are at low %'s.

 

[weedwack]

I think the ness tech chasing game can be developed further. that is all. instead of calling me a noob, maybe you could be encouraging or something? nah, ignore me, i dont know what im talking about.

keep in mind that if you play primarily online, the 2-3 frames of lag you are accustomed to make a huge difference in this kind of thing.

 

[firo]

Ness is not fast enough to do perfect tech chasing when not on a platform. Most characters tech too far/fast, and the risk of messing up or being too slow is huge with some characters (instant up-smash by falcon, kirby up-tilt, etc). You can use the reverse DJC to catch people if you can predict, and with a nair or dair you might be able to cover a tech in place + one direction, but the risk isn't worth it sometimes. Ness's main priority should be not getting hit off the ledge at almost any cost.

A lot of the ness tech chasing game, at least for me, is just as much about not getting a hit as it is going for one. You can deny a certain tech direction and force your opponent to move in a certain direction. If against a falcon, for example, you can position yourself the direction that is closest to the ledge to force your opponent to either tech in place or away from the ledge. Or with kirby you can force a tech so that you'll be on the right side of an uptilt. It makes sense a lot of times to force a tech in the direction so that your opponent would use their weaker throw to get you off the edge, as ness fights close. There's a lot to think about.

 

[The Star King]

I think that covering a tech in place + tech in one direction is certainly realistic. Just not both left and right techs.

 

[weedwack]

how does the speed of the reverse djc compare to the speed of tech rolls? I'm sure you could squeeze enough distance out of it, but speed is really the issue. If it is, frame for frame, a possibility, I admit your reflexes would have to be SUPER fast.

Is there any ending lag to tech rolls? How many frames would it take to shield/usmash at the end of a tech roll?

 

[asianaussie]

even assuming this is possible

are you going to pause the game as they tech, identify the teching position, and act accordingly?

i see no other way in which human reflexes could even hope to react to things at a level where frame data like that matters

 

[ballin4life]

frame data like that matters because if it's not possible in TAS then we KNOW it's not possible for humans

 

[asianaussie]

even if it is possible in tas im skeptical it'll matter much for humans

i would rather work on reading them, instead of expending all my energy in one match reacting to things

 

[weedwack]

If someone could test it out in TAS, it would be super helpful. If we know how many frames you have to react, we could say for sure whether it is humanly possible.

 

[Sangoku]

I could do it, but it sounds like a pain in the ***, since you need to find the perfect initial position first. Won't do it anytime soon I guess...

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

you could easily do it on TAS, maybe not fat kong

 

[Sangoku]

So I've tested it, here's the result.

I did this on Falcon (keep in mind that the length and duration of the roll depends on the character, so what I'm going to say only applies for Falcon).

If you're standing right below him while he bounces from the first Dair, you have:

- 8 frames of reaction time+imperfection of DJC to dair him again if he techroll behind Ness.

- 17 frames of reaction time+imperfection of DJC to dair him again if he techroll in front of Ness.

What I mean by imperfection of DJC is simply if you don't DJC the optimal way (fastest while covering enough distance). In other words, if you're frame perfect with your DJCs (which I'm sure nobody is), you have 8 frames of spared time if he techrolls behind and 17 if he techrolls in front.

Now also, go figure the differences between this:

this:

and this:

Because you're supposed to know at that frame which direction he's going if you want your full 8 and 17 frames of reaction.

If we sum up, 8 and 17 are the maximum amount of delay you can have. Now subtract the time you need to distinguish the direction, the time you need to react on it, the extra time you need to DJC because it's not perfect. I'm still positive it's not doable, but it is in theory, so I apologize for my last post.

By the way, the bet is on, which image is which tech?

 

[Twilight Sparkle]

*looks at above post for about a minute
Well, I quit.
Anyways, Thanks for figuring out the frames of time for tech chasing. Now I know to not spend time developing an eye for which direction they're moving to and just predict it instead or doing something else.

Metagame for ness: Don't get knocked off.

 

[weedwack]

Cool, thanks for testing this out. Why is there such a huge difference between rolling in front vs. rolling behind?

smash runs about 60 frames/second on console, right?

 

[The Star King]

Yes. It is humanly impossible to react to something in 8 frames. 17 frames is maybe BARELY possible (the accepted standard for pro reaction in the Fighting Game Community is a bit over a quarter of a second A.K.A. AT LEAST 15 frames IIRC), and you would have to DJC perfectly and tell which way he's going from the early, hard to distinguish frames. TL;DR you cannot react, you have to predict.

Sangoku, shouldn't covering a tech behind have the larger window than in front, because reverse djcs are faster backwards? Did you mix those two up?

Thanks for your tests. I kind of wanted you to do that but I didn't want to ask and make you work for me (even though I've done so in the past )

P.S. I think you put the images in order of teching left, in place, and right. I compared the position of Falcon's feet against the green pyramid in the background. But obviously I wouldn't be able to tell quickly enough in a real match lol

 

[Sangoku]

I didn't switch them up, but it does seem weird indeed. In fact that's because the forward DJC is faster. The backward DJC can provide more distance, but this extra distance is unneeded to cover the techroll anyway. For a same number of frames (say 26) after the second jump, forward will make you go further. Of course, this doesn't apply eventually (if you increase the number of frames), since in front is at its limit sooner. But at a techroll distance, forward is faster.

Also if you look at my pictures, Ness is not totally centered, he's a bit more in front. These numbers aren't absolute, that's what I got in this case, but it gives a good idea of what's going on.

No problem, it's always fun to test thing out (except when they are really hard to test).

And no, the images are: tech right, tech left, tech in place. If you tech right, you'll be more left in the beginning and vice versa.