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ness discussion

weedwack

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 24, 2011
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8 frames is definitely not enough time to react, but its cool to know its technically possible. Maybe "humans suck" would be a more fitting catch phrase than "ness sucks."

You can do some really cool research on TAS, very interesting about forward DJC being faster at short range.
 

Battlecow

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better techchasing wouldn't make ness THAT much better anyways

He's already really good at killing most characters once he dairs them. This is 64, after all.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
wow can't believe you actually did that sangoku, cool stuff! I'm curious, how many frames after the techroll begins would you say it is "humanly discernible" in-game which tech option falcon is choosing
 

Sangoku

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^Lol why not?

Yeah, but that I couldn't tell. It would depend on the people and on reaction time (analyzing time). I could make a video quizz with random techs of less and less frames and stuff, but that would be kinda troublesome lol.
 

Battlecow

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Am I the only one annoyed by the fact that the word "palindrome" is not a palindrome? I vote we change it to palinilap.
 

Sangoku

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I never thought a word had to be self-describing. It would sure look cool if it were, but if it isn't, then it's normal too.

Tested some DJC'ing and stuff with Ness...

The important part for having good DJC aerials are the two jumps, they must be as close together as possible. Like:
cc - - - - - - a
For a given number of frame (from first c to a), this will give a DJC aerial closer to the ground than:
c - - - - - - ca (with the same number of frame from first c to a).

Yoshi, on the contrary, because he's so freaking slow has some different timing. Ness can Double Jump on the 3rd frame after the first jump, Yoshi "can" double jump on the 5th, but the 5th and the 6th will result in no jump (Yoshi back on the ground). For a given small (because you want the attack to be quick overall) number of frame from first c to a, Yoshi won't have the attack come out if the two jumps are close together, that's why you'd prefer:
c - - - - - - - ca
over:
cc - - - - - - - a
In fact it's the same as Ness, cc - - - - - - a results in an attack much lower, but with Yoshi, it's so low that the hitbox doesn't come out and you fail.

Didn't know where to post this ****, maybe I'll add in my other thread lol.

edit: oh and something I should add in the shield thread someday:
Ness' aerials shieldstun, interesting to see which one is more appropriate for shieldbreak. Keep in mind they have different starting and ending lag.
dair: 31
uair: 33
nair: 34
fair: 31
bair: 38

Fair and Bair are a lot slower, check the corresponding tables for the exact values. I'd say uair might be the best solution.
 

The Star King

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Uair and Dair have the pro of no canceling required, but are more likely to be stale because they're more commonly used in general. I usually used nairs on keyboard but I sucked at Ness shieldbreaks so w/e
 

firo

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That's some interesting stuff, Sangoku. Falcon is one of the faster tech rollers if I recall. I'd be curious of how someone like Pikachu fairs, who I believe is somewhat slower.

I'm also wondering how exactly you did your calculation. Once falcon techs, he still has to do a move or run away to avoid the tech chase. Assuming that the falcon does not shield (which is a bad choice), I would think his options are either to jump, upsmash, run, or grab, as I think those are his quickest moves, which will add a few more frames on.

One thing I forgot to mention is that you can increase your rate of tech prediction highly by watching which way your opponent DIs. If you do a few uairs and he is DIing to the right, and then you do a dair, you can almost be sure that he is going to tech to the right. Sometimes its possible to see even during one move if the hitstun is long enough and your opponent DIs well. I think the same input for DI can also register for the tech direction, and I think in some cases it is not possible to switch directions from DI to the tech, but this also needs to be tested/figured out.

Also with shield breaks I think what move you should use depends a lot on the character. If he/she is short, I usually use all dairs, but if its someone tall like DK or Falcon, the last hit almost always has to be a nair in order for it to break. For some reason I find shield breaking with uair a lot harder.

I played ness in almost every tournament match last weekend, along with 2+ hours of ness friendlies. So depending on how much Knitephox uploads there should be a fresh batch of new ness vids.
 

Sangoku

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I'll be stuck in an airport for hours today, so if I can find a place to plug my computer, I'll try on Pikachu.

I computed that way: I started the DJC'ed at the frame you saw in the above pictures. Then I delayed the dair until it would hit the shield. It might be a bad choice, but that stops the "infinite tech-chase". Or if you want, add one frame to have a shield jump and inincibility.

The DI-tech thing, I always wonder how people still haven't figured me out about this. I almost always tech the same direction I'm Diing to. However, it's not the same inout. DI is input during hitlag (frozen frames, since hitlag is for the attacker) and I'm pretty sure you can't input anything else.

Can't wait to see your vids, I always love watching high level Ness.

By the way, did you get the pm I sent a while back?

:phone:
 

The Star King

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@Teching in the same direction you DI - if you've ever played malva he DIs spikes near the stage towards the stage so that he lands on the ground and doesn't die, but he techs in place and not just the direction he DI'd, what a crazy mofo
 

sharksquail

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so i've been having trouble with the donkey knog matchup recently. been getting thrown out of close djcs and getting beat by wakeup throw on tech chases with u-air and d-air any ideas?
 

TheMagistrate

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May 29, 2012
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Indiana
better techchasing wouldn't make ness THAT much better anyways

He's already really good at killing most characters once he dairs them. This is 64, after all.

Battlecow knows.

how many of you can confidently say you have mastered djc shield breaking? I see very good players mess them ALL the time, and it seems like it should be a much bigger part of ness' game. Maybe there are complication at higher levels of play that I dont know about?
I can easily say I can shieldbreak and DJC fluently on command. Its more about the approach and getting to actually land the Dair or Uair to start the shieldbreak/combo.

Have you seen Firo's Ness? So ****ing nasty.
 

Yobolight

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Fun fact: I found out on Peaches Castle when recovering with Ness if you angle your recovery into the bottom of the triangle blocks that you will land on the stage (either the bridge or that moving stone thingy) with no ending lag.
 

weedwack

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Ok I have some serious **** to report.

The following **** has only occurred on DL.

I go to cancel PK magnet on the left ledge. Samus will shoot a shot that will hit me as my magnet activates. The blast will hit me from the front side. The absorption sound will play.

I TURN AROUND, facing AWAY FROM THE STAGE, the OPPOSITE DIRECTION the blast hit me from, and fall down without a jump, with between 3-4% chance of survival. Makes no sense. So mad.

wack.
 

The Star King

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Cuz the game hates Ness

If you're right about it being only Dreamland that's interesting. Not sure about that. Are you saying it's only on the left edge too?
 

weedwack

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Pretty sure the only place ive seen it is on the left side of DL. Not saying its impossible elsewhere.

Maybe when something hits the very top of the magnet, it always turns ness left. That would explain ledge selectivity. It would also explain why I've never seen it on hyrule, because the slant of the left ledge makes it impossible, or at least very difficult, to hit the magnet right on the top.
 

Cobrevolution

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Ok I have some serious **** to report.

The following **** has only occurred on DL.

I go to cancel PK magnet on the left ledge. Samus will shoot a shot that will hit me as my magnet activates. The blast will hit me from the front side. The absorption sound will play.

I TURN AROUND, facing AWAY FROM THE STAGE, the OPPOSITE DIRECTION the blast hit me from, and fall down without a jump, with between 3-4% chance of survival. Makes no sense. So mad.

wack.
your reactions just kept getting funnier and funnier.
"FAAAAAAAACK"

but really i think this should be tested with other absorbable projectiles as well - namely lasers and fireballs. i expect the same result but it's good to make sure. also should be tested in the air more.
 

weedwack

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Yea, it happened multiple times that set. It was infuriating. Do you remember seeing it anywhere else?
 

Cobrevolution

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nah, but it deserves to be tested with other stuff. does jefferson starship turn fox around on sector z, would luigi fireballs have the same effect because of their straight horizontal trajectory (it'd be easier to scrape the top of the magnet), would a mario fireball hitting the bottom act the same way, etc.
 

Battlecow

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Huzzah!

There's some secretive **** going on in orlando

this gainesville tourney is really just a cover story so that the Florida Four can teach hbox how to beat armada

SEIBRIK COULDN'T DO IT
 

Yobolight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
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I admit that Ness probably sucks, but is ****ing fun to play with because his punishment is ****ing awesome
 

weedwack

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Probably DL. He's easy to gimp there, but he has many more viable combos, and more mobility due to the platforms.

But that can be said for most characters.

Avoid Saffron.
 

weedwack

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I'd say its his worse stage. I've been chasm shined waaaaaay too many times to think anything else.
 

weedwack

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You can get some gnarly combos on those small platforms, but it doesn't pay off imo. Its just too easy to knock ness into one of those gaps.

It also makes DJCing dangerous pretty much anywhere on the stage, making his approaches even HIGHER risk.
 

Yobolight

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If the Ness player is familiar with the stage's do's and don't's then getting gimped shouldn't be a bigger problem than any other stage because Ness gets gimped everywhere.

Ness hates dash grabbers and the small platforms prevent that, and allow him to Utilt relatively safely, and they allow Ness to tech chase viciously.

The spike certainly doesn't hurt either.


Edit: Also I think I have found some legit uses for PK Fire.
I know that doesn't sound possible, but I will upload some vids.
 

weedwack

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you mean shouldn't?

Regardless of knowing the do's and don'ts, you are still overall more susceptible to low percentage deaths. It's just a matter of probability.

Interesting statement about ness being vulnerable to dash grabbing. I disagree. With the possible exception of falcon, it's pretty tough to approach ness just by running/dashing at him. In fact, baiting people into grabbing is an old standby for me. Once you're sure they're going in, reverse djc dair works like a charm.
 

Yobolight

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Fixed.

I play against Falcon a lot.

Ness has bad grab range and I notice it big time against Pika and Falcon.
 
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