Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[ArikadoSD]

Does anyone know the amount of frames the ledge trump animation has? (when someone gets trumped)

 

[LancerStaff]

I know 3DS blast zones are larger than Wii U. What I don't know is "in what manner?"

I know for a fact the ceilings are higher.

However, I have no idea what the comparisons are for the other three blast zones. If someone could fill me in on that, that'd be great. 3DS FD vs Wii U FD is all I really care about, BF would be nice to know too if you're up to it.

I think DLC omegas are actually Wii U sized, bizarrely enough... I'll take a look at a more sane time.

And if you poke around the stage analysis section you can find some data on blastzone size and how they're measured and so on. Something about comparing a distance launched stat post match... Which might be troublesome if you can't get ahold of another game.

 

[Lavani]

Something about comparing a distance launched stat post match...

If you're suggesting comparing these between versions, the different versions use different scales for the same stat for God-knows-why so it's completely useless in this regard. I have no personal access to the Wii U version at any rate.

Does anyone know the amount of frames the ledge trump animation has? (when someone gets trumped)

Roughly 30 for Rosalina. I don't know if it varies between characters but I assume it doesn't.

 

[Pazx]

So, does the staling list last? So if I want to stale Uthrow with Diddy, I would need to have used Uthrow within the last 8 moves right?

I believe you can up throw, use 8 other moves, then up throw again and it will still be slightly stale, but either way you have the gist of it correct.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I believe you can up throw, use 8 other moves, then up throw again and it will still be slightly stale, but either way you have the gist of it correct.

I was just thinking that if I Uthrow at the beginning of the game, it won't be stale at all in the end, or at the time I need it.

 

[Poopysandwich]

if you footstool someone while they're doing a perfect pivot their pivot moves across half the stage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Does anybody know for sure if the smart bomb item has a rehit rate instead of looping hits? I have evidence that says otherwise. And if it is looping hits, that's really annoying because this is the easiest way I could think of to test invulnerability frames.

I'm getting hit on frame 36, 37, and 38 during a certain action.

 

[Yikarur]

I've tested several invincibility windows before we got the data dump with smart bombs and they were all accurate. (and I did a lot)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The difference is that I'm not testing an attack or dodge roll. I'm testing the diminishing amount of I-frames when grabbing the ledge at higher percents. The reason I got three numbers is I took three different takes for ledge grab at 100%. I frames ended on frames 37, 38, and then 36. Each with me resetting damage to 100%. And I doubt it was a mechanical error of not being within the bomb's wonky hit area. I was very accurate with the timing.

Going to do more testing until I can get an accurate number. Or failing that, and accurate range. I've never heard of varying I-frames for the same action in a Smash game, but I'm not ruling out the possibility after what I had seen.

 

[Lavani]

The longer you're in the air before you grab the ledge, the more i-frames you receive while hanging. I believe the range was something like 20-120f?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The longer you're in the air before you grab the ledge, the more i-frames you receive while hanging. I believe the range was something like 20-120f?

This is news to me. The only discovery I've heard is that more damage reduces the number of I-frames when grabbing the ledge. And I can certainly confirm that from what little I've tested, just not with precise numbers. It seems that whatever you get at 0% is about double what you get at 100%, and it's possibly reduced very little beyond 100% damage. But if air time is indeed a factor, then I'm unsure how to proceed. With the many different ways and distances you can get launched offstage, different air speeds and falling speeds of all the characters, recovery moves, any numbers I do get would be effectively useless data. Even the I-frames granted by an instant ledge trump would have a big asterisk, because the amount of frames it takes to fall and grab the ledge is different too among the cast.

Blast it, I'll just do ledge options. Those are consistent, and people are actually asking for this information.

 

[Lavani]

Probably a good time to note that KuroganeHammer updated with
ledge options last night.

Always good to have a second set of eyes though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's worthless granddaughter. Lucina's worthless grandfather. I love it!

Edit: the ledge rolls piss me off. Like why are they the same FAF. And WHY is Sheik so freakin invincible?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Probably a good time to note that KuroganeHammer updated with
ledge options last night.

Always good to have a second set of eyes though.

Mmm, perhaps not. None of this data seems wildly inaccurate at a glance. And nobody likes a proofreader they didn't ask for. Dearest KuroganeHammer , Samus' bomb activation timer is 63-80, not 52-80.

Best I find something else to look at. I did make some progress on prone get up options a few months back. Got the frame data for all the getup attacks, just missing the I-frames. I assume neutral get up and get up roll are the same among the whole cast in terms of total frames, but that's an assumption after counting about seven characters before moving on to the attacks. Best I be more thorough than that after seeing that bit of variance with ledge options.

 

[san.]

Ugh, the ledge roll data explains so much, when I thought I timed certain punishes correctly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I was going to tweet about this but I'll post it here instead, things I learned when putting the pages together:

• My turtle's roll sucks, and as an especially big character that makes the option pretty much unviable and I need to stop using it
• Yoshi's ledge roll is actually hilariously bad
• Palutena and Mii Fighters have long ledge get ups. Although this would normally be bad, it causes a lot of people to miss-time their punishes because of MU inexperience. If you played against these characters enough though it would become a liability probably.
• Palutena randomly has 4 frames more duration on jumping, why is this character so fast movement speedwise but when it comes to doing ANYTHING she has like 3 years lag on it?
• Only strong men have 8% get up attacks. Women and not strong men have 7% ones. Jigglypuff has 6%. Dr. Mario is a doctor so his is 7.whatever%.
• (the above dot point is sexist btw)
• ZSS has the least safest on shield ledge attack
• Ganondorf has the safest on shield ledge attack (HOORAY SOMETHING GANONDORF IS GOOD AT)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Zapp Branniglenn It's like Lavani said, air time will affect how much ledge invulnerability you get, but then another factor is how long ago you were in hitstun. http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-41#post-19963631

Regardless, there are ways to account for all these factors if you did want to test it, it's just that it would necessarily be finicky to set up. Consistency can be gained by frame skipping and inputting everything with frame precision, but then difficulties will arise if you want to have e.g. the exact same amount of air time for each character. This can be achieved, but it will require a custom stage, a bit of patience, and a lot of spare time. If you're just doing the one character however, then it's easy enough.

 

[busken]

Does anyone know the amount of frames the ledge trump animation has? (when someone gets trumped)

What do you mean? How long you can hang on the ledge before you will get trumped? The FAF you can act when you get trumped?

 

[ArikadoSD]

What do you mean? How long you can hang on the ledge before you will get trumped? The FAF you can act when you get trumped?

The amount of frames the actual animation of the character that gets ledge trumped.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sorry Lavani didn't mean to keep you waiting.... Omega 3DS Duck Hunt (yaknow, the free DLC stage) appears to have the same sized blastzones as a Wii U omega from what I can tell. Uh, I can't compare directly right now, so I'm working with some kill% stuff on Electroshock to compare. Even if it's not the same it's a heck of a lot closer to Wii U's.

 

[Savestate]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this (I don't visit the Smash 4 area often, and I play it very casually) but luigi's side-b custom #3 produces no hitstun/hitlag (freezeframes)... is this intentional?

 

[ぱみゅ]

EDIT: I dun derped.

 

[Lavani]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this (I don't visit the Smash 4 area often, and I play it very casually) but luigi's side-b custom #3 produces no hitstun/hitlag (freezeframes)... is this intentional?

I didn't actually notice this trait until now, but it's had its hitlag set to 0 since the beginning of time, so I guess it is intentional. Living up to the name of Quick Missile I guess.

 

[Big O]

Does anyone know the amount of frames the ledge trump animation has? (when someone gets trumped)

You suffer 28 frames of lag when you get ledge trumped. Might vary from character to character, but I doubt it's by much.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do we have the frame data for Foxtrots. What I am mainly looking for is the time in which it is impossible to Shield.

Mewtwo has a tech where he can DJC SB and shield as soon as he hits the ground. One use for it could be shielding out of a foxtrot, as you can jump out of a foxtrot, but not shield.

Basically, I am trying to find out how viable of an option it is, and to do so I need to know the frames for foxtrot, the other info is easy.

 

[san.]

Do we have the frame data for Foxtrots. What I am mainly looking for is the time in which it is impossible to Shield.

Mewtwo has a tech where he can DJC SB and shield as soon as he hits the ground. One use for it could be shielding out of a foxtrot, as you can jump out of a foxtrot, but not shield.

Basically, I am trying to find out how viable of an option it is, and to do so I need to know the frames for foxtrot, the other info is easy.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-3#post-20041871

 

[Meshima]

Does anyone know what happens with the Olimar's second d-throw?
Kirby seems to do air dodge immediately after suffering from d-throw...
Yellow Pikmin(or electric element?) has something special ability with opponent's stun frames?

ピクオリ勢の誰かが言ってた黄ピクミンで投げた時硬直が減るのってこれ？一回目は俺が下手なだけかもだけど二回目はどう見ても相手の回避早すぎる pic.twitter.com/laEQ2xR05C

— しゃけ🐟 (@ssbb_shaK) December 23, 2015

 

[Vipermoon]

After Roy moves out of the way, why does Lucina slide further with the running Ground Dodge and walking Jab? I know this has something to do with Lucina being able to do PP sliding tilts which Marth can't. The only other movement difference between the two is how Marth inches forward or backward after acting out of Utilt.

 

[Shaya]

Would've been good to see it on a custom stage rather than that one.
Those bombs on the ground act as 'road blocks' much like an opponent does.

Both chars going through one wouldn't necessarily negate the other as it occurred at separate times.
Marth is in front of Lucina when going through the first bomb but Lucina is ahead of Marth as he passes through the second bomb.

Recorder would've been smart to have done it from the right side which had the bombs horizontally (or at least very close to) aligned.

Doesn't mean there isn't something different here though.

 

[Vipermoon]

Would've been good to see it on a custom stage rather than that one.
Those bombs on the ground act as 'road blocks' much like an opponent does.

Both chars going through one wouldn't necessarily negate the other as it occurred at separate times.
Marth is in front of Lucina when going through the first bomb but Lucina is ahead of Marth as he passes through the second bomb.

Recorder would've been smart to have done it from the right side which had the bombs horizontally (or at least very close to) aligned.

Doesn't mean there isn't something different here though.

Well it wasn't my vid, so I went to the youtuber and apparently there is a #2. I can't check it out myself because I'm out of town without Smash 4.

In this one I can't think of anything to dispute the ground dodge sliding distance (which probably applies to other options out of walk/run?). IIRC they have the same traction values so I don't know what this is about but do we even know why Marth can't do a PP slide?

 

[Lavani]

Marth's spotdodge cancels momentum, Lucina's spotdodge preserves it. Just another minor difference between the two.

Kind of interesting to me though, I remember being disappointed awhile back that Luigi's spotdodge didn't preserve momentum and just assumed that it'd be a standardized thing across the cast without actually checking for exceptions.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's spotdodge cancels momentum, Lucina's spotdodge preserves it. Just another minor difference between the two.

Kind of interesting to me though, I remember being disappointed awhile back that Luigi's spotdodge didn't preserve momentum and just assumed that it'd be a standardized thing across the cast without actually checking for exceptions.

But what decides which moves do which? How can someone find out on their own (like maybe in mastercore)?

 

[Lavani]

I think I actually asked the same question at one point and didn't get a response/never figured it out. I just test moves out of a walk/run in-game if I want to know.

I'm pretty sure that information isn't in MasterCore at the least, since there isn't any variation in data between Marth and Lucina utilts outside of some hitbox numbers (which, it wouldn't be related to the hitboxes).

 

[Shaya]

Better get your 1.0 3DS out to check if it's been like that forever.
Wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, and may justify the long lived idea of "Lucina is slightly faster".

What would determine it? From what data we've seen before and assuming how dacus and the whole difference in sliding up tilt/etc, it's all about the animations.

 

[san.]

Some actions just don't allow sliding. This contributes to some standing grabs and random ground moves not sliding, notably most of the fire emblem crew's dodges and grabs. I'm not sure if there is any consistency or if it's just a flag.

 

[Phoenix502]

"Q&A - mechanics"... okay then

so I saw this match involving Cloud with Max rage KOing a Falcon at like 0-4%... and some of the responses pointed out how Falcon was charging a Smash attack and suffered extra knockback (on top of Cloud's rage) because he was hit while still charging,

I did a quick test myself and posted the results on Youtube, but by any chance, has this been extensively explored already, with a video explanation and everything?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

But what decides which moves do which?

God.

I did a quick test myself and posted the results on Youtube, but by any chance, has this been extensively explored already, with a video explanation and everything?

Taking additional knockback while in a smash charge state is known. No video necessary. As for the exact increase in knockback, I believe it's 20%. This doesn't mean that KO percents are improved by precisely 20% because knockback values, rage, and the % at which you die of a certain move at a certain point of a certain stage are somewhat indirectly related to each other. But the short answer to your question is a definite yes.

 

[Kofu]

KuroganeHammer minor question about air acceleration. Jumping out of a walk/dash/run can cut the acceleration time down, right? If so, does it cause your air speed to match whatever your ground speed was (or automatically put you at max if your ground speed exceeds your max air speed)?

Also, I remember you mentioning thrown item velocities differing from character to character (likely along a similar pattern to ledge getup attack power variations). Ever plan on collecting that data?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KuroganeHammer minor question about air acceleration. Jumping out of a walk/dash/run can cut the acceleration time down, right? If so, does it cause your air speed to match whatever your ground speed was (or automatically put you at max if your ground speed exceeds your max air speed)?

Also, I remember you mentioning thrown item velocities differing from character to character (likely along a similar pattern to ledge getup attack power variations). Ever plan on collecting that data?

o yeah

1) I think so

2) I guess I could look for this in the attributes file.

Edit: I think I found it.

Edit 2: i lied

 

[KuroganeHammer]

These numbers seem to coincide with what I'm getting in game:


bowser 1.463359952
dk 1.314319968
dedede 1.271999955
charizard 1.229200006
ganon 1.197999954
samus 1.149199963
? 1.122460008
bowser jr 1.121999979
rob 1.115200043
ike 1.104879975
wario 1.104760051
link 1.103880048
yoshi 1.087520003
falcon 1.085999966
? 1.077600002
shulk 1.06400001
megaman 1.06400001
lucario 1.029999971
? 1.029999971
1.027999997
mario 1.024000049
dr mario 1.024000049
luigi 1.013200045
villager1.011600018
dark pit 1.007959962
pit 1.007959962
wii fit 1.006639957
greninja 0.9972000122
? 0.9959999919
sonic 0.9950000048
pacman 0.9918000102
robin 0.9856399894
diddy kong 0.9800000191
toon link 0.9790599942
ness 0.9745399952
? 0.9739999771
marth 0.9599999785
lucina 0.9599999785
palutena 0.9584000111
duck hunt 0.9562000036
? 0.9455999732
peach 0.924399972
sheik (lol its better than zelda's) 0.9060000181
zelda 0.8848000169
mac 0.8727999926
falco 0.8712000251
zss 0.8659999967
fox 0.84799999
mk 0.8471999764
pikachu 0.8396000266
olimar 0.8259999752
rosalini 0.8233399987
kirby 0.8072000146
game and watch 0.794968009
? 0.7639999986
jiggs 0.7080000043

anyone who wants to test these out is more than welcome if they want to confirm for me that these are indeed item toss strengths

i have to go to bed soon (dog)

Edit: Smash thrown capsule from bowser to charizard all does 19.xx%

same thing from ganon down does 18%

jiggs does like 16% with smash thrown capsule

SO I THINK THESE ARE THE NUMBERS