Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I looked into the exact mechanics of perfect pivoting a while ago and it's like you guys say, it revolves around the initial dash frames.
I'm pretty sure, without testing literally every character (which anyone else is free to do btw), that every character has the exact same amount of initial dash frames. So using any character as the example, you need to hit the joystick either left or right to initiate the dash, then, assuming for now that you hit the joystick in the direction your character was already facing, on any frame following that up to frame 6, you must hit the joystick in the opposite direction but only for one frame. So for example, to do the longest PP, you dash, and on the 6th frame you hit the joystick backwards, and by the 7th frame the joystick must be returned to neutral, otherwise you'll dash back in the other direction. If instead you hit the joystick backwards on the 7th frame you'll go into the slow dash turn animation. Note that dashing in the direction your character is not facing will give you an extra frame to work with because the first frame will be a pivot, then the second frame will be the first frame of the initial dash.

 

[Ulevo]

I asked this previously but was not given a definitive answer. Maybe you know Fox Is Openly Deceptive . How many frames does a turn around animation have from a standing position? What is the first actionable frame? Does it differ between characters?

i.e. If Meta Knight's down tilt is frame 3, and forward tilt is frame 6, is it faster to forward tilt in the opposite direction, or turn around and buffer a down tilt?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I asked this previously but was not given a definitive answer. Maybe you know Fox Is Openly Deceptive . How many frames does a turn around animation have from a standing position? What is the first actionable frame? Does it differ between characters?

i.e. If Meta Knight's down tilt is frame 3, and forward tilt is frame 6, is it faster to forward tilt in the opposite direction, or turn around and buffer a down tilt?

It depends on the move used as to whether you'll need any pivot animation. E.g. it's better for Link to land with the first hit of Bair then do a B-reversed or turn around grounded Up-special rather than doing a pivot grounded U-special, whereas if he wants to do a landing Bair to turn around U-tilt he'll have to pivot first. And pivoting takes exactly 1 frame in the least in this scenario.

But to your example, it's better to do a pivot d-tilt. F-tilt doesn't require the extra frame of pivoting to do directly in the opposite direction, so doing a turn around F-tilt hits on frame 6. However, while D-tilt does require at least 1 frame of pivot animation to turn around, the earliest possible frame it will hit is frame 4.

 

[Vipermoon]

But how realistic is it for a human to pivot for just 1 frame then attack? And consistently.

Marth is in a similar scenario with his Dtilt and Ftilt.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

But how realistic is it for a human to pivot for just 1 frame then attack? And consistently.

Marth is in a similar scenario with his Dtilt and Ftilt.

It can be buffered, sort of. So the example I gave with Link landing with Bair then doing a turn around U-tilt, assuming you're using the A-stick (which if you're playing Link you should be), you simply hold backwards on the joystick as you're landing with Bair (or from any point previously), then it's a simple matter of timing an A-stick upwards input. Very easy to do consistently.

 

[busken]

I am trying to find every option you can do while walking, foxtrotting, and running.
This list includes what you can DIRECTLY do out of each option. Not waiting for the left stick to reset to neutral. I would appreciate if Fox Is Openly Deceptive can confirm. http://pastebin.com/rCC01QeP

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I am trying to find every option you can do while walking, foxtrotting, and running.
This list includes what you can DIRECTLY do out of each option. Not waiting for the left stick to reset to neutral. I would appreciate if Fox Is Openly Deceptive can confirm. http://pastebin.com/rCC01QeP

I'm going to get some sleep but I'll have a look at this tomorrow. If need be I'll edit what I need to say into this post. Until then there are plenty of others who are more than capable of confirming this sort of thing for you.

Edit: Alright let's see. So you've specifically requested that the information pertain only to doing things directly out of a movement option without returning the joystick to neutral. That already makes me question your choice to include foxtrotting. In fact I don't like the inclusion of foxtrotting at all because it combines the initial and later frames of a dash. I'd prefer to keep these separate.

Walk is fine except: You can do F-smash forwards even if you have the A-stick by using A+B=smash, and you can F-smash backwards directly with the joystick and attack button. You need shield as well as rolling backwards only. Also you forgot about item stuff (standing item throw in any direction), but then everyone does so dw. If it were me I'd also include available movement options too, e.g. pivot is pretty important (leading to walk/dash in the other direction). (I probably wouldn't include dashing in the same direction using the 'held A then hit A-stick' trick, because I don't believe that counts as dashing directly out of the walk, rather it just interrupts the joystick input for a frame then re-registers the joystick input, this time as a dash, but I'll leave that up to you). I'd say 'giving you access to options out of a jump or jump-squat' just for clarity. But then sometimes stating that an option gives you further options can confuse things, otherwise you'd have to consider things like dash attack or crawl just because you can dash/crouch. You're also going to want to differentiate between Standing Grab and Dash Grab; out of walk it will be standing grab, but out of everything else it will be dash grab. Also Taunting, don't forget taunting XD.


Foxtrotting: I see what you're trying to do, i.e. compare different movement options to see what available options you have out of them, but I'd still divide this into two sections, the initial and later dash. The initial dash, as I said earlier, being the first 6 frames presumably for all characters. As for the later dash that's going to be much more character dependent. I generally test using Link so that's who I'll use. The earliest another joystick input can be made for the next dash forwards (in the same direction) is on frame 16 (which immediately activates the next dash on the same frame) and that's if you return the joystick to neutral before or on frame 13. For an extreme comparison, Mac can input the next Dash on frame 5 which buffers into the next dash which occurs on frame 16. Characters are generally going to fall into one of these two categories (e.g. Marth is more like Mac, while Mario is more like Link, but I'm using Link as the example for now). Going along then with your idea to not return the joystick to neutral first, we'll count the later dash as being frames 7 to 12 which works out because Link transitions into the Run on frame 13 anyway (i.e. the first frame shield will activate).

I might just make my own list for initial and later dash.

Initial Dash: F-smash in either direction, dash attack, roll backwards or forwards (but you can't shield and you can't spotdodge), jump, dash grab, side special only, Pivot (if you release the joystick after one frame, otherwise you'll get a), Dash backwards, standing item throw in any direction (cannot dash throw).

Later Dash: Dash Turn [which can be cancelled with grab, F-smash, F-tilt, Jump, side-special, and roll (but only in the direction you turned to face, and only a back-roll)], Dash Attack, Side Special only, U-smash, Jump, Dash Grab, dash item throw.

And I think that's about it for foxtrotting.


Run is fine except: You left out the Dash Turn and everything that entails (see above). Spotdodge works, as does Neutral special, U-special, D-special, and U-smash. That's probably it though.

 

[RadiantHero_]

Hi masters of smash arts.
I'm here to question two things:
1.- What is a empty hop and how can I perform it?
2.- What is a shield dash and how can I perform it?

Thank you!

 

[NickRiddle]

Hi masters of smash arts.
I'm here to question two things:
1.- What is a empty hop and how can I perform it?
2.- What is a shield dash and how can I perform it?

Thank you!

Empty hop is just doing a short hop without doing any landing option to fake people out.
A dashing shield is when you dash, and then stop your forward momentum with shield. You generally quickly drop shield afterwards so your character is in their neutral position faster than stopping after a run.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Finally got some exact criteria for Roll Cancel Grab and Dash Attack Cancel Grab--

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Finally got some exact criteria for Roll Cancel Grab and Dash Attack Cancel Grab--

Just to clarify, these are my results:

Using Wario:
You can activate Dash attack on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest. (i.e. you must have at least 1 frame of the Dash animation; without it you'd effectively be doing the inputs for Dash and Dash attack at the same time in order to have their animations start on the same frame, i.e. frame 1, which if you're using the c-stick down method, will give you a D-smash.) Then you can cancel Dash Attack on frame 2 or 3 of the Dash Attack animation with Grab (To clarify, you want to overlap it so that Frame 1 of the Grab animation starts on what would have been frame 2 or 3 of the dash attack. I'm assuming that Grab simply takes precedence over Dash Attack if used on the same frame, and in any case there has been no dash attack animation at all yet on frame 1 so grabbing on the same frame as dash attack doesn't count as a Dash Attack Cancelled Grab, though it does Dash Grab).

To cancel a Roll with Grab, it must be a Forwards Roll done out of an Initial Dash as you say. To Roll Forwards out of the initial Dash, input Shield on frame 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 of your Dash. The joystick may be returned to neutral at any point or it can stay forwards.
Then, you must input Grab on frame 2 or 3 of that Roll.

With a Regular Dash Grab, you can hit Grab on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just to clarify, these are my results:

Using Wario:
You can activate Dash attack on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest. (i.e. you must have at least 1 frame of the Dash animation; without it you'd effectively be doing the inputs for Dash and Dash attack at the same time in order to have their animations start on the same frame, i.e. frame 1, which if you're using the c-stick down method, will give you a D-smash.) Then you can cancel Dash Attack on frame 2 or 3 of the Dash Attack animation with Grab (To clarify, you want to overlap it so that Frame 1 of the Grab animation starts on what would have been frame 2 or 3 of the dash attack. I'm assuming that Grab simply takes precedence over Dash Attack if used on the same frame, and in any case there has been no dash attack animation at all yet on frame 1 so grabbing on the same frame as dash attack doesn't count as a Dash Attack Cancelled Grab, though it does Dash Grab).

To cancel a Roll with Grab, it must be a Forwards Roll done out of an Initial Dash as you say. To Roll Forwards out of the initial Dash, input Shield on frame 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 of your Dash. The joystick may be returned to neutral at any point or it can stay forwards.
Then, you must input Grab on frame 2 or 3 of that Roll.

With a Regular Dash Grab, you can hit Grab on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest.

I'll list corrections. Thanks!

 

[Ulevo]

I suppose this would be the appropriate time to inform you that you can also cancel dash attack with pivot grabs. It has the benefit of slowing down and, in Meta Knight's case, completely stopping the pivot slide's momentum. Just a tidbit.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Just to clarify, these are my results:

Using Wario:
You can activate Dash attack on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest. (i.e. you must have at least 1 frame of the Dash animation; without it you'd effectively be doing the inputs for Dash and Dash attack at the same time in order to have their animations start on the same frame, i.e. frame 1, which if you're using the c-stick down method, will give you a D-smash.) Then you can cancel Dash Attack on frame 2 or 3 of the Dash Attack animation with Grab (To clarify, you want to overlap it so that Frame 1 of the Grab animation starts on what would have been frame 2 or 3 of the dash attack. I'm assuming that Grab simply takes precedence over Dash Attack if used on the same frame, and in any case there has been no dash attack animation at all yet on frame 1 so grabbing on the same frame as dash attack doesn't count as a Dash Attack Cancelled Grab, though it does Dash Grab).

To cancel a Roll with Grab, it must be a Forwards Roll done out of an Initial Dash as you say. To Roll Forwards out of the initial Dash, input Shield on frame 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 of your Dash. The joystick may be returned to neutral at any point or it can stay forwards.
Then, you must input Grab on frame 2 or 3 of that Roll.

With a Regular Dash Grab, you can hit Grab on frame 2 of the Dash at the earliest.

Just to clarify how much slower is the start-up of a dash attack canceled grab compared to a dash grab? If slower at all.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just to clarify how much slower is the start-up of a dash attack canceled grab compared to a dash grab? If slower at all.

At earliest, starting from a neutral standing position, they can both begin to Grab on frame 3. (Frame 1 = the first frame of Dash, frame 2 = either the first frame of dash attack or the first frame of the forward roll, then frame 3 = the first frame of grab).

 

[busken]

This is really overwhelming to tackle all at once.
Here is what I got so far I might look back at it later today
All options from walk: http://pastebin.com/z5qat6Hz
All options from jump squat: http://pastebin.com/KWnJkTHx
All options from crouch: http://pastebin.com/MMgFDYX0
All options from shield: http://pastebin.com/kJ1NyWfy

If anybody would like to confirm or have any questions please do so. I also haven't done run and foxtrot yet, so you can look at these for now. Ultimately, I plan to create some type of flowchart incorporating all of these options.

Credit to Fox Is Openly Deceptive for helping me add/confirm some of these to the lists.

 

[Masonomace]

This is really overwhelming to tackle all at once.
Here is what I got so far I might look back at it later today
All options from walk: http://pastebin.com/z5qat6Hz
All options from jump squat: http://pastebin.com/KWnJkTHx
All options from crouch: http://pastebin.com/MMgFDYX0
All options from shield: http://pastebin.com/kJ1NyWfy

If anybody would like to confirm or have any questions please do so. I also haven't done run and foxtrot yet, so you can look at these for now. Ultimately, I plan to create some type of flowchart incorporating all of these options.

Credit to Fox Is Openly Deceptive for helping me add/confirm some of these to the lists.

You can F-smash angled up, F-smash, F-smash angled down & turnaround Fsmash any angling during a crouch with the C-stick set to smash. You can't really do a turnaround Ftilt during crouch, but you can to input a move out of crouch & then buffer the turnaround Ftilt with the C-stick set to attack. Kinda weird. Oh & for options during a held crouch, you can input UpB & SideB if you are B-sticking. These options could be B-Reversed / Wavebounced from here, but otherwise you can quickly tap up & b or side & b out of crouch instead.

For options from shield, you can add platform shield drop if you want. It's only happening if you play on platforms so. There's also shield DI n all that.

 

[busken]

A while back I heard that shields are frame 1 but become visible on frame 2. Is this true?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A while back I heard that shields are frame 1 but become visible on frame 2. Is this true?

This is true.

 

[Shaya]

^That fact caused me eternal strife when I was on the 3DS trying to do frame data stuff.

Anyway; shield stun formula...
Is it 1.75, 1.72, something else? Projectiles assumingly 3.5 or 3.44?

I had a large spreadsheet project somewhat completed almost 2 months ago now but I caught a whiff of "this is all wrong, bowser back air somethingsomething" "but sixriver said it's definitely 1.75" then nothing.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

^That fact caused me eternal strife when I was on the 3DS trying to do frame data stuff.

Anyway; shield stun formula...
Is it 1.75, 1.72, something else? Projectiles assumingly 3.5 or 3.44?

I had a large spreadsheet project somewhat completed almost 2 months ago now but I caught a whiff of "this is all wrong, bowser back air somethingsomething" "but sixriver said it's definitely 1.75" then nothing.

1.72 and 3.44. I wouldn't have been so sure if I wasn't doing my homework co-authoring these sheets. As for the proof that it isn't less than 1.72, Moves with 12% damage would be dealing 9 shieldstun instead of 8.

 

[Shaya]

So I have zero doubts, all checked/recorded in training mode?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So I have zero doubts, all checked/recorded in training mode?

Yes, tested exclusively with 60 FPS recordings in Training Mode. And of course, anything that effects damage can effect shieldstun and shieldlag. Lucario's aura, WFT's Deep Breathing, Charging a smash attack, using a fresh or stale move.

We found some issues with the formula in regard to projectiles with little no hitstun due to a 0.0 or 0.2 hitlag modifier. Like Falco's blaster with its (supposedly) 0.1. This attack deals 0 shieldlag, but 4 shieldstun rather than 2. My theory was that successfully blocking an attack will lock you into your shield for 4 frames minimum between shieldlag and shieldstun, in addition to the established formulas. But there are some other projectiles out there that come into question because we have no idea what their hitlag modifiers are. Like Falco's reflector. It is definitely not 0.5. If anybody knows how to read these modifiers from game data sources like Dantarion or sixriver, I'd appreciate a primer some time.

 

[Yikarur]

Did you hold the shield long enough before the projectile-hit to avoid any shield lock frames?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Did you hold the shield long enough before the projectile-hit to avoid any shield lock frames?

No, that's not it. I did extensive testing on these moves. Dozens of takes, all with 0 shieldlag and 4 shieldstun. I was well aware of these shieldlock frames, and it's hard to imagine a simple mechanical error explaining every instance.

While I'm posting here, I should submit this discovery from a few months back. It's a bizarre method of bypassing hard landing lag after autocancelling an aerial. I wrote all the notes I had into the video descritption, but we Bowsers quickly wrote it off as unviable. We don't...jump...in the neutral game. Much less full hop. But I know I was able to perform this tech with other characters, Ganondorf's Bair comes to mind. For characters that like to jump and have decent specials, perhaps there's something here.

Bowser is good practice for this. When he lands, there's a loud THUD sound. But if you've cancelled the lag, no such sound plays. You don't have to be a frame counter to notice when it works.

 

[Shaya]

This sounds similar to Infinite second jump renewal in Brawl.

And that minimum 4 frames thing/etc, I'm pretty sure I came across this at some point and made a general conclusion as to what.
Rounding down isn't a safe assumption (another example I believe is end frames of moves with frame rate modifiers, attack/hit frames will be rounded down so something hitting frame 9.7 is on frame 9, but that end of 40.7 won't become 40, but rather 41).

Shield stun and shield hit lag can seemingly come together without rounding down individually.

 

[Masonomace]

Sorry for derailing the discussion at hand, but I'm coming across this odd quirk option that I was noticing at first playing as Shulk. I learned that it's not character specific & that other characters if not every character can perform this, but Idk what this is or why it's happening based on the input(s).

When you walk, run, slow run, or dash / foxtrot towards the end of a ledge or platform & begin to walk / run off, you have to rapidly tap your joystick in the opposite direction while pressing the attack or grab button. If done successfully, you'll immediately hop upward without any jumpsquat frames as this animation is shared with your Short or Full Hop going backward.

Note: This cannot be performed with the C-stick no matter what you set it to. The shield button won't work either. Your joystick direction for the jump tech can only be to the side, not straight up down or diagonal inputs.

The misinputs would depend on your timing, so if you input it too early before you walk / run off falling, you get:

• turnaround Ftilt
• dash attack
• pivoted Fsmash
• pivot grab
• whatever else

If you input it too late, you get:

• airdodge
• Zair only
• back air
• whatever else

EDIT: Video.

 

[Yikarur]

I was thinking about doing a video of that before but my laptop sucks and I didn't want to post it until the last patch so that maybe no one notices it so it doensn't get patched 8) because this is clearly a bug.
But if we're so far I can explain it in full detail. As Masonomace pointed out this only works with the controlstick.

if you walk or dash/run off a ledge if you press back + Attack (including Grab) simultanously within the first 5 frames of you leaving the edge you do a backward full hop (instead of back air/airdodge) that skips the jump squad frames.
This always works! The Backward Full Hop is super easy to do.
But what about forward?..

Forward Squadless FH:
To do a forward squadless full hop you have to put the stick neutral for at least 1 frame after leaving the stage, and then press forward + attack simultanously all within the 5 frame window.

Another method:
If you dash onto the ledge and put the stick neutral, you won't run off the stage. If you initiate a dash toward the edge, put the stick to neutral and then press forward + attack you'll do a forward Squadless Fullhop out of the dash. This is pretty easy to do but needs a set-up so this is only good if you're positioned correctly.

This technique (I call it "A-Jump") is in theory pretty useful for some characters with very high jump squad frames. But the forward one without a dash is way too hard to perform. I tried to include that in my game for a half year already but it's super situational to make a good use of it.
I did some super late upthrow/dthrow upair combos with pre-patch Diddy using that method for example, but it was just messing arround in Training Mode.

If you do it correctly it looks a bit like the Brawl Bug where you did a full hop without jump-squad if you press jump after leaving the stage (if anyone remembers..)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is there any practical use for this? I see some situational things, but not much...

 

[Masonomace]

Is there any practical use for this? I see some situational things, but not much...

I have other videos edited & private showing this off a little bit more, but even though it works on practically every stage that has platforms or ledges, the usage I can think of incorporating this isn't that high on my priority list right now.

 

[Kofu]

Was thinking about possibilities for combos and thought I remembered circumstances where it was impossible to tech meteors. I was thinking it was after being footstooled/during a lock animation but couldn't remember. Confirmation would be nice.

 

[Lavani]

Was thinking about possibilities for combos and thought I remembered circumstances where it was impossible to tech meteors. I was thinking it was after being footstooled/during a lock animation but couldn't remember. Confirmation would be nice.

I recall aMSa saying you couldn't tech spikes while knocked down. Doing some brief testing with lv9 1.0.0 CPUs (which always tech if able), they'll tech Greninja's dair if they're standing but won't if they're knocked down - regardless of the cause of the knockdown - which seems to confirm that.

 

[Kofu]

I recall aMSa saying you couldn't tech spikes while knocked down. Doing some brief testing with lv9 1.0.0 CPUs (which always tech if able), they'll tech Greninja's dair if they're standing but won't if they're knocked down, regardless of the cause of the knockdown, which seems to confirm that.

ty vanilla ilu

I was thinking that was the case because I recall various footstool combos involving meteors and being inescapable because you couldn't tech the meteor.

Time to see if it works with my character~

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

When prone, meteors are not techable. So any combo involving the rebound is in fact a true combo. This is important to know for working with jab locks. Lets you come up with harder finishers. Like Samus' Dair to apex screw attack over using a simple Charge Shot after three jabs.

 

[Lavani]

I know 3DS blast zones are larger than Wii U. What I don't know is "in what manner?"

I know for a fact the ceilings are higher.

However, I have no idea what the comparisons are for the other three blast zones. If someone could fill me in on that, that'd be great. 3DS FD vs Wii U FD is all I really care about, BF would be nice to know too if you're up to it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone know if buffered attacks/specials take priority over buffered movements?

I main Mewtwo, as is fairly obvious, and I have noticed on multiple occasions that this seems to be the case. I was working on a way to guarantee M2's Jab-Utilt-Usmash combo, and I found that stepping counters all DI and makes it work every time, however, as I was labbing it, the step would get cancelled and a Utilt would come out, disregarding the step input. I eventually learned the timing, and I now just step as soon as Jab frames are over.

The other day, I was making a video on Bair tumble lock with Mewtwo, and I noticed a similar case. Instead of b-reversing as I was trying to do, I would use confusion. (It is actually a pretty good combo) I tried multiple times, but it wouldn't allow me to b-reverse. My thought is that the movement either can't be buffered, or attacks/specials override buffered movement.

 

[Jams.]

Does anyone know if buffered attacks/specials take priority over buffered movements?

I main Mewtwo, as is fairly obvious, and I have noticed on multiple occasions that this seems to be the case. I was working on a way to guarantee M2's Jab-Utilt-Usmash combo, and I found that stepping counters all DI and makes it work every time, however, as I was labbing it, the step would get cancelled and a Utilt would come out, disregarding the step input. I eventually learned the timing, and I now just step as soon as Jab frames are over.

The other day, I was making a video on Bair tumble lock with Mewtwo, and I noticed a similar case. Instead of b-reversing as I was trying to do, I would use confusion. (It is actually a pretty good combo) I tried multiple times, but it wouldn't allow me to b-reverse. My thought is that the movement either can't be buffered, or attacks/specials override buffered movement.

I believe there is a move priority list in this game. If multiple inputs are made during the same buffer window, the highest priority move will be performed.

The list goes: z-drop > specials > z-catch and item toss > zair > airdodge > attack > jump. I think movement options like dash and walk would have even lower priority than jump.
Here is the post I took this list from, which goes into more detail about buffering.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So, does the staling list last? So if I want to stale Uthrow with Diddy, I would need to have used Uthrow within the last 8 moves right?

 

[Comet7]

What is the difference between soft landing lag and hard landing lag?

 

[Masonomace]

What is the difference between soft landing lag and hard landing lag?

Mainly it's frame difference. A good number of characters in the cast have the standard of 2 frames for their Soft lag & 4 frames of Hard lag. Characters do vary, as Bowser for example has 2 frames of Soft lag but 6 frames of Hard lag.

Another difference is the animation made, from what I've noticed. Whether or not you apply fast falling or use a Short Hop / Full Hop also seems to make a difference between getting the Soft or Hard landing lag. Short Hop without fast fall will likely result with the Soft lag, while a Full Hop with or without fast fall will likely result with the Hard lag. I added in something for the Shulk metagame thread that I'll paste in a quote:

Soft & Hard Landing Lag
Many characters have an amount of Soft Landing Lag & Hard Landing Lag. For Shulk, his Soft Landing Lag is 2 frames & his Hard Landing Lag is 4 frames. (A video that I'll make someday will go further in detail with this including visuals).

As you see above, Shulk on the right is suffering Hard Landing Lag, which looks like he's taking a kneel down with his right knee to the floor upon landing with a larger circular wave of smoke. Shulk on the right is suffering Soft Landing Lag which looks like he's bending both knees with a smaller circular wave of smoke that dissipates quicker. Depending on how you move & land, you'll get one of these outcomes unless you choose to use airdodge, an aerial, or a special move that will result with a different kind of landing. Airdodge's landing animation looks the same as the Hard Landing Lag state you see on the right except you suffer 22 frames instead of 4. Even the one "autocancel" that Vanilla Shulk, Jump Shulk, DJump Shulk, & HJump Shulk all share being a Full Hop Forward air will still suffer the Hard Landing Lag of 4 frames. Considering how long you're in the air throwing out an aerial just to "autocancel" is nothing spectacular.