Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Superaaron14]

I used dair to do the interrupt, plus i tested it and it works with every aerial and special move and even airdodges

 

[Lavani]

who would have frame advantage in this situation? I just want to know if those jabs could have been powershielded
http://gfycat.com/RipeBrightAtlanticspadefish

Also, if i am diddy kong and I powershield Luigi's jab and d-tilt immediatedly after will my d-tilt come out before his 2nd jab?

Looks like MK tried to start a jab before getting hit by Peach's jab, so (power)shielding would've been an option.

I'm unsure about your other question, Luigi can jab2 really quickly after his jab1 and I'm not entirely sure if powershielding actually lowers the shieldstun with such a low stun amount anyway. I think dtilt should trade at the least, though.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

who would have frame advantage in this situation? I just want to know if those jabs could have been powershielded
http://gfycat.com/RipeBrightAtlanticspadefish

Well Peach's Jabs could have been used 7 frames sooner, and MK could have DJ'd out to avoid the situation entirely.

Also, if i am diddy kong and I powershield Luigi's jab and d-tilt immediatedly after will my d-tilt come out before his 2nd jab?

Depends on the spacing, but you'll either get a clash or you'll hit each other. Alternatively, if Diddy uses Jab instead, Diddy will win.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone know if Mewtwo can Dair cancel?

 

[moofpi]

Does anyone know if Mewtwo can Dair cancel?

I'm pretty sure almost every character can frame cancel laggy moves if you perform it correctly. If Falco, Falcon, and Ganondorf can frame cancel their Dairs, I'm fairly certain Mewtwo can as well.

 

[busken]

Does increase in rage mean increase in hitstun?

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm pretty sure almost every character can frame cancel laggy moves if you perform it correctly. If Falco, Falcon, and Ganondorf can frame cancel their Dairs, I'm fairly certain Mewtwo can as well.

Thanks! I will have to look into that and try to get it down. Mewtwo has some awesome Dair combos.

busken Nope, hitstun is damage. Rage only affects KB.

 

[David Viran]

Uh I thought it was said that hitstun is based mostly off kb.

 

[Lavani]

Hitstun is KB based and is affected by rage.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hitstun is KB based and is affected by rage.

Really? I was looking into shieldstun numbers and people were putting hitstun and damage together. My b...

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Shieldstun isn't hitstun. Shieldstun is based off of damage.

 

[Speed Boost]

Hey Guys,

I've been practising Extended Dash Dancing for the last few days, hours at a time. I will get in the groove for a few minutes here and there, but I my thumb gets tired quickly or I loose concentration. Can anyone with experience learning this technique give me some moral support? Does it get easier? How long did it take you to master the technique?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Shieldstun isn't hitstun. Shieldstun is based off of damage.

I was looking into shieldstun, and the people in the shieldstun thread where talking about the changes in hitstun. They were both being discussed, but I guess some false info was spread. I tried to filter the misinformation as best as possible, but I guess I never confirmed the hitstun thing.

Hey Guys,

I've been practising Extended Dash Dancing for the last few days, hours at a time. I will get in the groove for a few minutes here and there, but I my thumb gets tired quickly or I loose concentration. Can anyone with experience learning this technique give me some moral support? Does it get easier? How long did it take you to master the technique?

Most movement techs will eventually become muscle memory. I have been slowly learning PP, and all of a sudden, I went from 1/3 to 9/10. You muscle memory will eventually kick in, but it might take awhile and a lot of practice.

 

[Speed Boost]

Most movement techs will eventually become muscle memory. I have been slowly learning PP, and all of a sudden, I went from 1/3 to 9/10. You muscle memory will eventually kick in, but it might take awhile and a lot of practice.

Yeah, I am still working on Perfect Pivots too. I'm finding it is extremely good when combined with EDD. You can trot into tilts and smashes, epic. I can PP and EDD going from left to right much more consistently that from right to left being right handed. The input of DD and PP is almost identical, Its the same timing and motion just whether the stick goes back to neutral or through to the opposite direction. I find practising one helps me execute the other.

I will keep labing, thanks for the love!

 

[Masonomace]

Apologies in advance if this kind of question was answered previously in a page far back, but it's in regards to Shulk's Vision counter or perhaps any counter. And I was going to ask this in the Smash Academy's Counter / Reflector / Abosrbs thread, but I thought I'd get a answer quicker here.

First I wanna show numbers so I can ask "why or how?".

Without DI, Mario at the center on Omega Gaur Plains using Ftilt deals 7% which has a 361° angle, 8 BKB, & 100 KBG. Mario dies to Shulk's regular Vision countering Ftilt at 196% showing the Deadly blow effect & Forwarded Vision counter at 165% showing the Deadly blow effect. However, Mario's Cape deals 7% which has a 110° angle, 0 BKB, & 0 KBG. Mario dies to Shulk's regular Vision countering Cape at 191% showing the Deadly blow effect & Forwarded Vision counter at 169% showing the Deadly blow effect.

I know that Vision's base damage changes when countering a move dealing ~6.166666665% or higher, so both Ftilt & Cape dealing 7% makes them both apply Vision's 1.3x multiplier. Yet they deal the same 9.1% from Vision or Forwarded Vision.

So. . .why? Does the different BKB & KBG values apply in the counter move's calculations? Or is the reflecting mechanic of Cape playing something at work here? I haven't even messed with other counters but I know that Shulk's Vision is very unique.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I read awhile ago that Little's Mac d-tilt can beat spot dodges. Meaning that if you hit them with a d-tilt and they spot dodge you can just buffer another d-tilt and it will hit. I was wondering if other frame 3 moves with short FAF times can do this like Lucas and Meta Knight.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I read awhile ago that Little's Mac d-tilt can beat spot dodges. Meaning that if you hit them with a d-tilt and they spot dodge you can just buffer another d-tilt and it will hit. I was wondering if other frame 3 moves with short FAF times can do this like Lucas and Meta Knight.

What do you mean? Most Dtilts send the opponent into the air, Diddy's Dtilt trues into itself because of this. Are you meaning a Dtilt on shield?

Edit:So, @meleebrawler came across an oddity, and after he and I tested it, we found that it is an AT.

He had noticed that sometimes, he would Dash grab and Mewtwo's DA sound would happen, while the dash grab happened. At first, we thought it had no practice use, except against people who rely on audio cues. But then, after I tested it a bit, I found that it acually boosts Mewtwo's grab range. There is an extra 1/2 frames showing Mewtwo in his dash animation before the grab takes over. After testing it on Shulk, I found that it works with multiple characters (not all characters have been tested). The tentative name for this AT is DACG

Has this been discovered? I have never heard of it so I sorta doubt it has.

 

[Ghostbone]

DACG has been around since melee lol

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Yeah it's been around since Melee its called Boost Grabbing. Here's a smash 4 video showing the increase in grab range for every character https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWnw81DYTkk&list=PLdzzxjI64mVdAY37WOW4klquzPIA-_K4a&index=4

 

[Sonicninja115]

DACG has been around since melee lol

Yeah it's been around since Melee its called Boost Grabbing. Here's a smash 4 video showing the increase in grab range for every character https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWnw81DYTkk&list=PLdzzxjI64mVdAY37WOW4klquzPIA-_K4a&index=4

Thanks! I have never heard of this tech before, and after asking around a bit, no one else had either. Isn't boost grabbing something different? Anyways, I will tell Meleebrawler about it and then add it to my AT compendiums.

 

[wedl!!]

Do Ryu's true inputs/strong normals stale the same way that normal moves do? Or are they considered separate?

 

[Lavani]

I read awhile ago that Little's Mac d-tilt can beat spot dodges. Meaning that if you hit them with a d-tilt and they spot dodge you can just buffer another d-tilt and it will hit. I was wondering if other frame 3 moves with short FAF times can do this like Lucas and Meta Knight.

Both dtilts have lower FAFs than spotdodges and start up quickly, so yes.

Isn't boost grabbing something different?

"Interrupting a dash attack's startup with a dash grab to increase its range" sounds exactly like a boost grab to me. Is there something different with what you're describing?

Do Ryu's true inputs/strong normals stale the same way that normal moves do? Or are they considered separate?

Glancing at Master Core, I'd guess his light tilts stale separately from strong as they're under separate subactions (the separate hits of jabs and MK's ftilt stale separately and are laid out similarly), while his special variants would stale together as they're lumped together in the same subaction.

I don't have Ryu though so I don't know for sure, just offering some theory in the absence of an actual reply.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Both dtilts have lower FAFs than spotdodges and start up quickly, so yes.


"Interrupting a dash attack's startup with a dash grab to increase its range" sounds exactly like a boost grab to me. Is there something different with what you're describing?


Glancing at Master Core, I'd guess his light tilts stale separately from strong as they're under separate subactions (the separate hits of jabs and MK's ftilt stale separately and are laid out similarly), while his special variants would stale together as they're lumped together in the same subaction.

I don't have Ryu though so I don't know for sure, just offering some theory in the absence of an actual reply.

I have heard the name boost grabbing referred to a different tech. I think the person must have been talking about boosting the grab.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Does anyone have the video for how to Sticky Slide (cancel the dash momentum of a dash with the C-stick set to smash into a forward or up smash)? If not, how do you post YouTube videos on Smashboards?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone have the video for how to Sticky Slide (cancel the dash momentum of a dash with the C-stick set to smash into a forward or up smash)? If not, how do you post YouTube videos on Smashboards?

There is a media button on the top of the post bar.

Sticky slide? Is it sorta like a pivot Fsmash?

 

[Djmarcus44]

There is a media button on the top of the post bar.

Sticky slide? Is it sorta like a pivot Fsmash?

Thanks. I'm having trouble with pasting a URL on to Smashboards with my phone.

Sticky Sliding allows you to move further than a pivot fsmash. It also works in the direction opposite to a pivot fsmash. The title of the video on YouTube is "Sticky Sliding- New Smash 4 Tech".

 

[Locke 06]

My original question was "can a boost grab pick up an item?" Mostly for the Diddy Kong matchup, but then I realized how weird that would be.

Answer is no.

A random note before I go into some other stuff:

- When Dash>shielding, if you grab on frames 2 or 3, you will Dash grab. But if you have an item, you will never Dash toss immediately OoS.

On to the good stuff, weight dependent throws:​

Conditions: Mega Man in training mode on omega Gaur Plains

Using Foxy's frame advance method, it seems like heavies have a better frame advantage vs weight dependent throws because there is more time between the moment of being thrown (when damage happens) and the thrower's FAF.

Example: Mega's dthrow.

• On Lucario (weight 99) it hits on f16, and has an FAF of 40. I will use this as a baseline as it follows Ffamran 's data.
• On Bowser (weight 128) it hits on f19 (+3), and has an FAF of 48 (+8).
• On Dedede (weight 119) it hits on f18 (+2), and has an FAF of 45 (+5)
• On Marth (weight 90) it hits in f15 (-1) and has an FAF of 38 (-2).
  
• On ZSS (weight 81) it hits in f15 (-1) and has an FAF of 36 (-4).
  
• On Metaknight (weight 80) it hits in f14 (-2) and has an FAF of 35 (-5).
  
• On Puff (weight 68) it hits in f13 (-3) and has an FAF of 32 (-8).

Full numbers will eventually be recorded for each character weight and all of Mega's throws, but I'm on mobile/don't have WiFi setup at my new place and wanted to share. I think it's very close to linear... But the numbers on dthrow on dedede (weight 119) mirror the numbers on MK (weight 80) while the numbers on ZSS (weight 81) are a frame different.

Masonomace - because shield Shulk implications.

References used:
Foxy's frame advance method
Ffamran's throw data
Kurogane Hammer weights

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

it seems like heavies have a better frame advantage vs weight dependent throws because there is more time between the moment of being thrown (when damage happens) and the thrower's FAF.

I can confirm this with my tests of Link's (weight dependent) D-throw follow ups on all characters. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20457552
There were obviously many factors that went into it, but weight was a surprisingly significant one.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Does a running jc usmash slide farther than a running usmash? It feels like it goes a little farther, but I'm not sure.

 

[Superaaron14]

Does a running jc usmash slide farther than a running usmash? It feels like it goes a little farther, but I'm not sure.

yes it does

 

[Ffamran]

Does a running jc usmash slide farther than a running usmash? It feels like it goes a little farther, but I'm not sure.

Going off of what Superaaron14 said, while it does go farther, it's dependent on characters. Some characters don't slide much, while others do. I don't know if we have a list of distances anywhere...

 

[Nijp]

I don't usually go on smashboards so I don't know if this technique i discovered is something small discovered a while ago or something new that is amazing, but i searched the internet and the boards for quite a day or so (I didn't know about this one at the time of posting) and so im posting it here.
I have recently come upon a new type of QAC that I am calling Dash Cancelling or QAC-D (Quick Attack Cancelled - Dash). This technique not only creates new offensive options for pikachu, but also some defensive ones too. Check out this post for the details and gifs showing the technique off https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._new_qac_technique_dash_canceling_xpost_from/

The TL:DR of the post is that instead of jump canceling or special-cancelling, you can input left or right to get a dash or up and down if you want to shield or spot dodge immediately after quick attacking into the ground. It is super easy and it allows for a much larger variety of options out of quick attack. By cancelling QA with a dash you can do things like quick attack into a QAC valid surface (such as dreamland towards wispy, lylat when tilted, smashville moving platform etc) directly into shield, perfect pivot, dash dance, spot dodge, turn around grab, turn around aerial, and any other grounded option

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Hi Guys. This seems to be an old tech from brawl in smash 4. We all know about Boost Grabbing or Dash Attack Canceled Grab, which extends your grab distance but reverse boost grabbing is just the same thing except you are doing it backwards like a pivot grab. I was wondering how helpful this would be to characters such as Lucas who don't really want to commit to a grab up close but now they can since they can catch rolls and still be a non-punishable distance if they whiff. Lucas/Toon Link/ Samus might not gain as much sliding distance as Fox but since they have a tether it might be ulitmately more useful here it is in Smash 4 with Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEX_SL3GeHI
He didnt say what he was doing but im 95% its a reverse boost grab here is the old brawl thread about it http://smashboards.com/threads/new-useful-at-inverse-boost-grab-boost-pivot-grabbing.169086/

I also want to know that frame data on this like is a reverse boost grab have the same frame data as a pivot grab? It probably has the same frame data as a boost grab but I don't even know how it changes the dash grab frame data if at all. What do you guys think?

 

[Lavani]

Since you're using a frame or two to start a dash attack before performing your pivot/dash grab that's effectively added to your startup. That's usually inconsequential in the situations you'd perform them, though.

I dunno about other characters, but I like boost pivot grabs on Rosalina. Messing in training briefly and the slide distance for Tink/Samus seems pretty good, while Link/ZSS don't seem to improve with it.

 

[Mario766]

Characters with solid pivot grabs make extended ones even better.

Ryo uses boost pivot grabs extremely well in his sets, and Ike utilizes the tech very well.

 

[HoSmash4]

Does anyone know the frame data for ledge options? E.g FAF, recovery frames, invulnerability frames?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Are there two different types of PP? In my testing, I have been able to do a really short one and a long one. Short being about a character length or a bit mor away, long being 2/3 character lengths away.

 

[Lavani]

There's a range of distances you can get depending on how quickly you turn around. The longer you wait before pivoting, the further you'll move.

 

[Sonicninja115]

There's a range of distances you can get depending on how quickly you turn around. The longer you wait before pivoting, the further you'll move.

That is going to make testing interesting. I wonder if it unlocks more combos...

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I have not seen a perfect pivot with different lengths....