Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Lavani]

Falcon's dash attack should have 103.2 knockback in your given scenario. Waft numbers are more or less accurate though.

Maybe it doesn't sound like a large difference, but

1. Waft has ~60% more knockback in these circumstances
2. Waft has a fairly horizontal knockback angle (35°), while Falcon's dash attack sends opponents up toward the corners of the stage (65°)

For what it's worth, Jigglypuff kills Mario with Rest at 60% on 3DS FD (~194 KB, 88°; not factoring gravity because I don't entirely understand how that fits in but it would increase the number) and starts killing him around 208% from center stage with dsmash (~185 KB, 0°).

 

[DoubleD]

Ah. So did I do my math wrong? What did I miss? And what are "these circumstances" you're referring to? In any event, what do these KB numbers mean? If they're a term of distance traveled, I guess my question as relative to what? Is 186 still the number to kill from center stage? Sorry for the influx of questions, just I'd really like to grasp this, partly because i'm calculating hitstun, (KB x 0.4) for true combos, so it's imperative my math is precise.

 

[0tteR_]

This happened to me in a match (I'm the Dr. Mario) and I don't know exactly why. I think I might have gotten hit by the pk fire after getting hit by the f-smash so I took the pk fire knockback or maybe it was just a phantom hit. Help?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Xermo]

How often do you fight ness, exactly.
You were simply hit by Pk Fire's refreshing hitbox after being f-smashed. Nothing special.
This occurs more often when pk fire's combustion activates at the center of the opponent, which mostly occurs at close range as such happened to you.

 

[0tteR_]

How often do you fight ness, exactly.
You were simply hit by Pk Fire's refreshing hitbox after being f-smashed. Nothing special.
This occurs more often when pk fire's combustion activates at the center of the opponent, which mostly occurs at close range as such happened to you.

Okay thanks, and I don't play against Ness too often, but that's honestly the first time I've ever seen that so I was a little confused. Thanks again!

 

[ぱみゅ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYCCnoArMvA
At 2:13 right after the 3wDtilt and Shakunetsu combo, ESAM performed a Quick Attack to the platform and received 1% damage, but I don't see from what.
Am I missing something? Being blind? Or dumb?

 

[Lavani]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYCCnoArMvA
At 2:13 right after the 3wDtilt and Shakunetsu combo, ESAM performed a Quick Attack to the platform and received 1% damage, but I don't see from what.
Am I missing something? Being blind? Or dumb?

Magnifying glass damage.

Ah. So did I do my math wrong? What did I miss?

No idea. Waft numbers were right, dunno how you pulled 129 KB for dash attack.

And what are "these circumstances" you're referring to?

"[Captain Falcon] dash attack at 0% on a 100 weight character"
"fully charged Wario Waft connecting at 40% also on a 100 weight character"

In any event, what do these KB numbers mean? If they're a term of distance traveled, I guess my question as relative to what?

"Bigger number = flies farther", I don't think there's really anything to compare it to, at least not at this time.

Is 186 still the number to kill from center stage?

I gave KB numbers for Jigglypuff vs Mario kill percents on 3DS FD in my last post, but it's going to vary between stage as well as system (3DS has larger blast zones than Wii U).

 

[Pazx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYCCnoArMvA
At 2:13 right after the 3wDtilt and Shakunetsu combo, ESAM performed a Quick Attack to the platform and received 1% damage, but I don't see from what.
Am I missing something? Being blind? Or dumb?

It's weird, but I think he must have taken <1% hoop damage from being briefly off-camera. Quick attack has weird hurtbox interactions so it's the best suggestion I can give.

edit:

 

[ぱみゅ]

You mean, the very brief instant he went upwards? Pikachu moves faster than the camera can pan out?

 

[Lavani]

You mean, the very brief instant he went upwards? Pikachu moves faster than the camera can pan out?

Yep.

It's not exclusive to Pikachu, it tends to happen a lot to Meta Knight when he Shuttle Loops even if he isn't anywhere near the top blast zone.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

Hi,

Can someone tell me the maximum time a character must remain in shield if he/she just clicks the L button and then immediately drops shield?

I'd also like to know if >100% get up options are in this game with reduced invincibility frames like in melee.

 

[Lavani]

Hi,

Can someone tell me the maximum time a character must remain in shield if he/she just clicks the L button and then immediately drops shield?

I'd also like to know if >100% get up options are in this game with reduced invincibility frames like in melee.

Did you mean minimum time? Forced shield hold time is 11 frames, and shield drop animation is 7 frames (18 frames total minimum for tapping shield). OoS options can be done at any point.

Ledge options don't change >100% in Smash 4.

 

[Vipermoon]

I played around with air dodging in 1/4 speed. It seems like there are no early autocancel frames on air dodge. Seems that you get landing lag even on frame 1 before landing.

Can someone confirm this?

This really sucks. You shouldn't get air dodge landing lag if there weren't any invincibility frames yet. This hinders trying to landing with shield a lot. Like while getting jab cancelled or many other situations.

 

[jmjb]

can all characters mash out of a grab at the same speed? eg: if I know that at 90% I can get at least 4 pummels before a throw against Ganon, does that mean I can do the same 4 pummels against Sonic before he can mash out? or do different characters have different mash speeds. thanks

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I played around with air dodging in 1/4 speed. It seems like there are no early autocancel frames on air dodge. Seems that you get landing lag even on frame 1 before landing.

Can someone confirm this?

This really sucks. You shouldn't get air dodge landing lag if there weren't any invincibility frames yet. This hinders trying to landing with shield a lot. Like while getting jab cancelled or many other situations.

Yes, I can confirm that even if used on the last airborne frame, airdodge will give you airdodge landing lag.

can all characters mash out of a grab at the same speed? eg: if I know that at 90% I can get at least 4 pummels before a throw against Ganon, does that mean I can do the same 4 pummels against Sonic before he can mash out? or do different characters have different mash speeds. thanks

I tested and compared Jiggs with Bowser using the same frame by frame pummel and mash inputs at varying percents.

With no mashing they were released at the same time (possibly give or take a frame or two depending on percents, but certainly nothing note-worthy).

With mashing Jiggs escaped notably sooner than Bowser at low percents, but then at medium or high percents they escaped at the same time.

Whether or not I pummeled didn't seem to make any difference as to how long it would take to break out if there was no mashing (though at higher percents there may have been a couple of frames difference that I wasn't bothered to check for sure), though whether or not I pummeled certainly made a notable difference if they were mashing, letting them out notably slightly sooner if I was pummeling, even at low percents.

A more thorough study would need to be made on this matter than just this cursory one before drawing any definitive conclusions (I don't remember if one has been made in the past), but for now I would just say that at medium to high percents, the amount of pummels you can get on any character will in all likelihood be sufficiently similar to say that you can do X many pummels at X percent. By far the greatest influence on this outcome (at medium to high percents) will be the player you are versing and how well/soon they mash, not the character.

 

[DoubleD]

No idea. Waft numbers were right, dunno how you pulled 129 KB for dash attack.

It does seem odd, but according to the formula:
((((((damageAfterHit/10) + (damageAfterHit * damageDealt/20)) * weightFactor * 1.4) + 18) * knockbackScalingFactor) + baseKnockback) * ratio, plugging in Falcon's data ( found here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Captain Falcon) for a 100 weight opponent at 0% when the attack deals 10 damage and has a BKB of 95 and KBG of 50, the math is: 10/10 = 1, + 0.5 = 1.5 * 1.4 = 2.1 + 18 = 20.1 * 0.5 = 10.05 + 90 = 100.05. So my math was off, but nonetheless that is 100.05 KB for a dash attack at 0%.Granted the angle is diagonal (65 degrees), but I just don't see it. If BKB wasn't added at the end, this would be pretty believable, I imagine. I admit my knowledge isn't the best, but this seems strange to me.

 

[Locke 06]

Powershield shield stun numbers pls.

 

[LancerStaff]

I played around with air dodging in 1/4 speed. It seems like there are no early autocancel frames on air dodge. Seems that you get landing lag even on frame 1 before landing.

Can someone confirm this?

This really sucks. You shouldn't get air dodge landing lag if there weren't any invincibility frames yet. This hinders trying to landing with shield a lot. Like while getting jab cancelled or many other situations.

I'm pretty sure it's true... Ultimately you want to get in the habit of holding shield during an aerial action so you can properly land with it, and letting go right before landing if you don't want to. If you need to AD, you'll have to let go of all shield buttons before pressing another though.

 

[jmjb]

Powershield shield stun numbers pls.

I don't believe there is any shield stun applied to perfect shielding.

 

[Sean de Lure]

Powershield shield stun numbers pls.

I don't believe there is any shield stun applied to perfect shielding.

PS reduces shield stun by 25% apparently, but not confirmed according to this http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/#post-20228622

 

[Yikarur]

This really sucks. You shouldn't get air dodge landing lag if there weren't any invincibility frames yet. This hinders trying to landing with shield a lot. Like while getting jab cancelled or many other situations.

I think it's a good thing. In Brawl there was only a 2-4 frame window to punish landings because you could always just hold shield before landing without any penalty. Now you have to time the shield input or hold it long before, which makes landing less automatic.

PS reduces shield stun by 25% apparently, but not confirmed according to this http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/#post-20228622

I can confirm that Shield Stun is about 25% less on powershield.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Hey guys quick question.
It's to my knowledge that aerials don't clank.
So what would happen if an aerial interacts with a tilt move on the same frame?
Would would happen if that tilt move is disjoint?

 

[GunGuts]

Hey guys quick question.
It's to my knowledge that aerials don't clank.
So what would happen if an aerial interacts with a tilt move on the same frame?
Would would happen if that tilt move is disjoint?

If an aerial collides with a grounded move, both characters will get hit.
If an aerial is disjointed and the gournded attack doesn't reach your hurtbox, only the grounded character will be hit.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

what about if the tilt is disjointed and the aerial isnt

 

[GunGuts]

what about if the tilt is disjointed and the aerial isnt

If a disjointed tilt connects with a non-disjointed aerial and the aerial doesn't connect with the hurtbox of the grounded player, then the aerial player is hit.

For example, if Marth's u-tilt and Mario's b-air were to overlap and Mario's b-air doesn't touch Marth's body, only Mario would get hit since his hurtbox extends with his legs and Marth's hurtbox doesn't extend with his sword.

Here's an example where both attacks would hit even if one were disjointed. In the same scenario, if Mario were close enough so that he could hit Marth with his b-air, both characters would get hit.

 

[Lavani]

Hey guys quick question.
It's to my knowledge that aerials don't clank.
So what would happen if an aerial interacts with a tilt move on the same frame?
Would would happen if that tilt move is disjoint?

what about if the tilt is disjointed and the aerial isnt

To put it simply, either the attacks trade or the more disjointed attack wins.

Unlike transcendent attacks though, aerials can still clank with projectiles. So an attack like Mario's nair could still be used to clank things like Luigi's fireballs or Luma's uair. Or for an extreme example, Bowser can bair Samus's fully charged Charge Shot to cancel it out.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

What is a reliable way to test the range of hitboxes?

 

[Lavani]

I'm guessing by range you mean disjoint. Hitting bombs is an easy way to test without a second controller/on 3DS. Bob-ombs have a smaller blast radius while all others are the same to my knowledge, so I usually test with Bob-ombs and Gooey Bombs.

If you were asking about range, just start from a distance and slowly inch closer until it hits

 

[Ghostbone]

Go to luigi's mansion, see how far away from the pillars you can be while still hitting them.

 

[Masonomace]

For testing a horizontal range, I used the Crate item but the pillars from Luigi's Mansion Ghostbone just mentioned is good too.

 

[Ulevo]

Regarding the confusion with rage a couple pages back, I am quite certain it starts at 30%. Taking Pikachu vs Jigglypuff, Pikachu can up throw Jigglypuff with no rage at 156%. At 32%, Jigglypuff dies at 155%.

The easiest way to think about it is there is 120% of rage, from 30-150%, and 90% is halfway.

 

[GunGuts]

I I speak Spanish too Lavani explained it more concisely than I did.

You could also have Mega Man hold an item to do some range tests on, since he stands still while holding an item.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Heyo! Does anyone know how stun works in this game? I'm running quick numbers on the ZSS 0-to-death thing and realized that I don't know how to tabulate down smash stun. I'm certain that it's longer than the raw hitstun value produced (28 frames), otherwise it would be quite impossible to combo into itself under any circumstance. To assess the range of viability, or if it even is viable from a frame-data-computation stance, I need a stun... formula?

Any help would be great, I can't really put in research legwork for another month or so.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

If you shield and then drop shield with doing a perfect shield or an OoS option how many frames of lag do you have?

 

[teluoborg]

0 that's the point of perfect shielding. And you also have 0 frames of lag for OOS even if you didn't perfect shield.

 

[Superaaron14]

Aerial interrupting may be in smash 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEQ6yhaLdfk
can someone test this out? i dont have the recording software to test this frame by frame

 

[ぱみゅ]

isn't that just an AC'd Uair?

 

[Vipermoon]

Looks like the usual instant ledge get-up tech except with Uair landing lag in the mix.

 

[Ghostbone]

Instant ledge get up aided by Mario's ECB getting shifted down by uair maybe.

 

[busken]

who would have frame advantage in this situation? I just want to know if those jabs could have been powershielded
http://gfycat.com/RipeBrightAtlanticspadefish

Also, if i am diddy kong and I powershield Luigi's jab and d-tilt immediatedly after will my d-tilt come out before his 2nd jab?