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[[Hyper Viper Beam]]MWC Event in Ann Arbor, MI [[Nov. 7-8]]
- Thread starter lain
- Start date
lain
Smash Master
that's gay
Lain I stay like 5 seconds away on EMU campus so you better believe I'm attending.
As for housing I may be able to house 1 or 2 peoples , because my dorm is so small and they would have to sleep on the floor lol. But wait instead of housing maybe for me maybe it would be called dorming???
Anyways all I'm saying is if your desperate for housing I'm an option.
As for housing I may be able to house 1 or 2 peoples , because my dorm is so small and they would have to sleep on the floor lol. But wait instead of housing maybe for me maybe it would be called dorming???
Anyways all I'm saying is if your desperate for housing I'm an option.
Kel
Smash Master
You are from NJ, so I'm going to take a safe guess that you don't plan to attend this tournament. I encourage you to do so! But otherwise, I implore that you don't know what you're talking about. There's an equally shiny A button that people can press when they miss a tech that will make them get up attack, WHERE YOU ARE INVINCIBLE AND HIT MK OUT OF TORNADO.
L2P people. Really.
Y.b.M.
Smash Master
Ummm....Yeah I will be at this tournament...It's time for Cincinnati to take this thing over...
Anther, i heart you. we should make pichus.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I think I did well for my first MK tournament, but I'm not talking about the midwest.
HiddenBowser
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3,511
you sir are a wise manban Metaknight and get around the Luigi's Mansion problem
Doctor X
Smash Lord
If by wise you mean one who johns a lot...
BIG C
Smash Master
that must mean I'm the wisest man at least, in the MW smash community.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
BIG C just won this conversation.
In Brawl (and Melee, actually), there's a couple of time windows. I'll list them for you.
VARIATION 1
1. You're in the air, still in hitstun
2. You press a tech button within the timing window of hitting the ground. If not go to 3.
2a. You tech. You're invincible while in this animation.
2b. You're in a vulnerable state where you cannot input anything for a little bit of time.
3. You hit the ground. You're temporarily invincible as you bounce once.
3a. You're temporarily vulnerable, and the game only accepts inputs to buffer.
3b. You can either take an action or you do the buffered action. You're invincible during this period.
VARIATION 2
1. You're in the air, not in hitstun
2. You do ANYTHING. You end up landing on the ground with that action's landing instead. If not go to 3.
3. You air-dodge within the timing window of hitting the ground. If not go to 4.
3a. You tech. You're invincible while in this animation.
3b. You're in a vulnerable state where you cannot input anything for a little bit of time.
4. You hit the ground. You're temporarily invincible as you bounce once.
4a. You're temporarily vulnerable, and the game only accepts inputs to buffer.
4b. You can either take an action or you do the buffered action. You're invincible during this period.
tl;dr version: If you're good with the Tornado then wakeup attack/roll/standing is simply not an option because you always get hit by the next Tornado before that happens.
L2Game Mechanics?
lain
Smash Master
So is everyone ok with this date being changed to Nov. 7-8?
Kel
Smash Master
Ankoku, MM? There is not enough time to do two tornados if the person knows what they're doing. All you have to do is DI left or right and then hit A. I know the game mechanics, otherwise I wouldn't be so good at the stage.
A Lot of people still don't know that you have to break the top down first. Many are assuming they know how long it takes the stage to respawn. Most don't know to just hit A.
A Lot of people still don't know that you have to break the top down first. Many are assuming they know how long it takes the stage to respawn. Most don't know to just hit A.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
You can't get a second tornado off unless the opponent lets you. Beyond like 20% it's just not possible to get to them before they can begin a get-up attack.
I'm not sure what you think you're getting at Ankoku. Have you tried this?
I'm not sure what you think you're getting at Ankoku. Have you tried this?
Teebs
Smash Champion
Shouldn't have any problems...
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
http://www.allisbrawl.com/group.aspx?id=3086
contact abit_rusty hereon smashboards, or get him on aim at kikkoman66
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Ankoku is assuming that the tornado is hitting the opponent for its entirety. We know this is not the case in real gameplay.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
When it pops you out, if you're DIing to the side you'll land too far away for him to get to you in time. It shouldn't matter whether it hits you for its entirety or not.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
what are all the ways you can DI out of the tornado anyways?
Kel
Smash Master
Depends on when he hits you with the tornado, what character you are, and what percent. The first, third and last hits of the tornado pop people out. Some characters like GAW and Pikachu pop right out of the tornado, others like Snake and D3 are pretty much stuck in there.
I have no idea what the hell the purpose of this would be. However, if I have to be Meta Knight for the MM, I can already tell you I'd lose. I only win consistently against people significantly worse than me when I'm using Meta Knight (read: like, nobody I play regularly).
If you're DIing left or right and Meta Knight doesn't get that weird no-ending-lag Tornado, you would have the time to wakeup attack out. I'm not sure about the distance, though, so Tornado might still set up into dsmash if you don't techroll away. Whatever the case, mashing A is not the solution, but DIing out of the Tornado is one.
A lot of people wouldn't complain about a really lame counterpick stage happening to not be around. You're seriously making a bigger deal about this single stage than most people would make about items being on at a given tournament.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
It's really more a matter of principle. People quote David Sirlin around here all the time but I think they just pick and choose situations. It's the way of the scrub to ban things that are "really lame" instead of learning to play. If you let all those people have their way there'd be nothing but flat, immobile stages left-- which are not actually neutral at all-- and the strategic element of counterpicking would be removed, and the game itself would be far less dynamic.
That, and I like stages that make you think. Luigi's is pretty high up there as far as that goes.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
Kel
Smash Master
Ankoku, MK's no-lag tornado is height dependent. Battlefield and do a tornado in the middle of the stage. MK has to be a little bit higher than the side platforms to get the canceled lag. BTW, this isn't just MK's tornado, it also applies to things like DK's Up B, Sheik's Up B, and various attacks like Ike's Nair.
Luigi's Mansion's ceiling is too low for MK to get the lag-free tornado.
Dr. X has my opinion on biases in "gayness". Banning a stage because you don't like it can be a slippery slope. If I get Chain grabbed 0-death in tournament, that seems pretty "gay" to me. So, in my mind, I should be able to ban things that I dislike just as much as anyone else. I think MK's Dsmash is gay, I think GAW's turtle and Dsmash are gay, I think Snake's Ftilt is gay, I think FD is gay (for its ledges), I think Lylat is gay, I think wall infinites are gay. I could go on and on; but my point is that I do NOT want those things banned because they're competitive. They may not be fun, or enjoyable, but that's not the whole purpose when you're creating competitive rules for a tournament.
Hot_Arms:
Well, like I said, MK's 1st 3rd and last hits pop you up and give you time to smash DI out of the tornado. So, more often than not, MK will try to hit you with the tornado after it's already been started to prevent giving you the opportunity to DI out. Since the MK will have to start the tornado really early to do that, you should mind game accordingly. But once you're in the middle of the tornado, you should be stuck there barring some outside forces. Getting hit from the middle of the tornado onward won't do that much damage though. Mortars hitting the tornado from below will knock MK out of the tornado, grenades, get-up attacks, Utilts (hitting from below [I could be wrong on this but I'm fairly certain it works]), bairs hitting the top corners of the tornado, etc. will all help you in fighting the tornado.
Pick MK in training and mess around with his tornado a bunch. It'll help
Luigi's Mansion's ceiling is too low for MK to get the lag-free tornado.
Dr. X has my opinion on biases in "gayness". Banning a stage because you don't like it can be a slippery slope. If I get Chain grabbed 0-death in tournament, that seems pretty "gay" to me. So, in my mind, I should be able to ban things that I dislike just as much as anyone else. I think MK's Dsmash is gay, I think GAW's turtle and Dsmash are gay, I think Snake's Ftilt is gay, I think FD is gay (for its ledges), I think Lylat is gay, I think wall infinites are gay. I could go on and on; but my point is that I do NOT want those things banned because they're competitive. They may not be fun, or enjoyable, but that's not the whole purpose when you're creating competitive rules for a tournament.
Hot_Arms:
Well, like I said, MK's 1st 3rd and last hits pop you up and give you time to smash DI out of the tornado. So, more often than not, MK will try to hit you with the tornado after it's already been started to prevent giving you the opportunity to DI out. Since the MK will have to start the tornado really early to do that, you should mind game accordingly. But once you're in the middle of the tornado, you should be stuck there barring some outside forces. Getting hit from the middle of the tornado onward won't do that much damage though. Mortars hitting the tornado from below will knock MK out of the tornado, grenades, get-up attacks, Utilts (hitting from below [I could be wrong on this but I'm fairly certain it works]), bairs hitting the top corners of the tornado, etc. will all help you in fighting the tornado.
Pick MK in training and mess around with his tornado a bunch. It'll help
It's not a slippery slope because unlike a community banning, this is one TO deciding he doesn't want to allow one (well, two, since one of you crazies decided to mention Green Hill Zone) stage. Also, I don't know what's gayer, the fact that G&W's dsmash undecayed can KO me at under 90% or the fact that Luigi's Mansion is practically synonymous with Meta Knight nowadays. Either way it's not relevant, but your being so offended by the stage not being allowed is. Just use another counterpick, since you seem so eager to advocate "learning the stages" I'm sure Mansion wasn't your only contingency plan.
You still haven't told me what the MM challenge was for. I guess I'll take it as long as it's under $20 and doesn't involve me using Meta Knight tho'. Provided I decide to show up to this tournament. Maybe. We'll just do a MM the next time we see each other.
Also I'd be completely fine with banning everything you think is gay. With Brawl sufficiently castrated I'd no longer have a reason to play it and I can go back to 1CCing games I haven't yet.
You still haven't told me what the MM challenge was for. I guess I'll take it as long as it's under $20 and doesn't involve me using Meta Knight tho'. Provided I decide to show up to this tournament. Maybe. We'll just do a MM the next time we see each other.
Also I'd be completely fine with banning everything you think is gay. With Brawl sufficiently castrated I'd no longer have a reason to play it and I can go back to 1CCing games I haven't yet.
Vayseth
Smash Master
Anyone quoting David Sirlin in regards to competitive smash is a fool. When David Sirlin wrote his article the smash community did not exist, especially in its current form. And, more importantly, Smash is the only game where the stages actually make a difference. I would take arguments for Soul Calibur, seeing as ring out characters most definitely benefit from small stages with no walls, but in almost all cases in all games, the stage will give little advantage to either opponent. In this game, this is a huge issue.
Sirlin was more talking about "broke" or "gay" techniques that may be discovered and how the good player will work around these strategies and beat them. He was more addressing people who want to ban moves or special techniques (even combos, which were not intentional in the original street fighter) and telling them to man up and work your way around it. Sirlin's article can be quoted in the wavedash debate, but most definitely not in the items vs no items debate, or the stage banning debate, since that is not what he had in mind when he wrote the article.
So, to the EVO staff and anyone on smashboards who still quotes him: it does not apply to stages or items.
Sirlin was more talking about "broke" or "gay" techniques that may be discovered and how the good player will work around these strategies and beat them. He was more addressing people who want to ban moves or special techniques (even combos, which were not intentional in the original street fighter) and telling them to man up and work your way around it. Sirlin's article can be quoted in the wavedash debate, but most definitely not in the items vs no items debate, or the stage banning debate, since that is not what he had in mind when he wrote the article.
So, to the EVO staff and anyone on smashboards who still quotes him: it does not apply to stages or items.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
Exactly what I'm talking about. You're arbitrarily narrowing down his point according to criteria that he did not himself present.
It's perfectly applicable to items. The difference between items and stages, however, is that smash was played with items on for a good long while. It was tested, and it was shown that they had a very significant tendency to randomize outcomes, which greatly robs the game of it's competitive merit. Stages like Luigi's do not have this kind of testing. People just got beat by stuff they don't know how to combat, assume it's impossible to beat, and go ban-happy. This kind of crap should be discouraged.
Vayseth
Smash Master
However, if you have never been involved in another fighting game community (which I have been a part of nearly all of them) you can tell that what Sirlin is talking about applies mainly to 2-D fighters, which all embody a similar style and a straight-forward format.
Again, his article more talks about techniques and not things you turn off to make a game more like a competitive fighter and less like a party game. It is NOT applicable. Until he himself wants to come out and say that it applies, it does not. It is only people ignorant of other fighters who wish to try and haphazardly apply his words to their game when they clearly don't apply.
Basically, he can't have a point that I can narrow down if he never presented one.
Also, lain has publicly stated that he's never lost on the map. Big C and myself 5 stocked a team on the map at the last circuit event. It's less about it being impossible to beat, and more about taking away from the competitive spirit in general. This isn't an issue about something unbeatable. If people were wanting to ban something near unbeatable, they would have banned Corneria long ago.
Again, his article more talks about techniques and not things you turn off to make a game more like a competitive fighter and less like a party game. It is NOT applicable. Until he himself wants to come out and say that it applies, it does not. It is only people ignorant of other fighters who wish to try and haphazardly apply his words to their game when they clearly don't apply.
Basically, he can't have a point that I can narrow down if he never presented one.
Also, lain has publicly stated that he's never lost on the map. Big C and myself 5 stocked a team on the map at the last circuit event. It's less about it being impossible to beat, and more about taking away from the competitive spirit in general. This isn't an issue about something unbeatable. If people were wanting to ban something near unbeatable, they would have banned Corneria long ago.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
Philandering around in a bunch of games doesn't make you an expert on reading David Sirlin's mind, and if you actually read his book he makes it perfectly clear that he's not just talking about traditional 2D fighters by using examples from other genres and even entirely different competitiveformats like MtG, sports, and Poker.
If you're saying it's not unbeatable, then it's not broken, and if it's not broken, it shouldn't be banned. Simple as that.
Edit: I'd also like to add that the people who use his words to justify having items on at EVO are widely regarded as the *authority* on traditional competitive fighters, so your statement that only those ignorant of other fighters do so is basically ridiculous.
If you're saying it's not unbeatable, then it's not broken, and if it's not broken, it shouldn't be banned. Simple as that.
Edit: I'd also like to add that the people who use his words to justify having items on at EVO are widely regarded as the *authority* on traditional competitive fighters, so your statement that only those ignorant of other fighters do so is basically ridiculous.
Levitas
the moon
David Sirlin's philosophy isn't the only philosophy, and that statement is rather broad.
Look at MTG. Yes, it's possible to beat a deck with banned cards, but in most cases, the addition of the card makes all varieties of decks strictly better.
I'm not arguing anything except that your post has flawed assumptions.
Look at MTG. Yes, it's possible to beat a deck with banned cards, but in most cases, the addition of the card makes all varieties of decks strictly better.
I'm not arguing anything except that your post has flawed assumptions.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
Of course it isn't. If it was he wouldn't have needed to write a book. Problem is, all the other philosophies are generally illogical and lead to far less interesting competitive environments. He argues against the scrub's "logic" because if the scrub had his way we'd never see a great deal of what the game has to offer because it's "lame" and "cheap" to explore it.
They ban cards only after this adverse effect on the game is proven, generally after a player builds a deck around said card that's so absurdly dominant that none of the other higher level players decks can compete. They don't just sift through every new set and decide "oh, this card's lame" and ban it.
Levitas
the moon
That's because they extensively research and test the new sets in development.
Doctor X
Smash Lord
Okay... but sometimes broken cards do get through, right? How do TO's and players know which ones are broken and which ones aren't? They don't know, not until somebody uses the broken cards to break the game.
Levitas
the moon
Ok, so are you saying your point holds because we haven't used the stage? That would make much more sense if it were true.
Once again, I'm not arguing for or against the stage. I'm pointing out invalid assumptions that you're making.
Once again, I'm not arguing for or against the stage. I'm pointing out invalid assumptions that you're making.