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Cut Veterans: Who do you think WON'T make it?

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RavenKingSage

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He did say not to take the list too seriously if you disagree. But given that practically all characters have some special quality or there's something about the franchise they represent, I find that rigid mathematical analysis isn't something to use when determining the likelihood of cuts. But Fatmanonice gets an A for effort! :)
 

RavenKingSage

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If I had to axe a Star Fox character, it would be Falco. But as for what choice Sakurai would make if it had to come to that... I don't know. On one hand, Wolf is already more unique and more important to Star Fox. On the other hand, Falco is more popular and better established.

A problem with no right answer, yet they might have to choose. They might have already worked out a priority list (kinda like what Narutendo3 has). It would be funny if they actually did XD
 

Fatmanonice

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Again, it's based on the initial model I constructed and it's simply a matter of answering all six questions with yes or no, leading to a final total for a game. For example, in this model, Jigglypuff is the most likely character to get cut from that game meaning, if Sakurai was going to choose one character from the original game to cut, it's very likely that it would be Jigglypuff but, again, based on the model. Think of it this way...

Most likely to Stay from the Original:

:mario2: :dk2: :link2: :samus2: :yoshi2: :kirby2: :fox: :pikachu2:= 8/8

Most likely to Leave:

:jigglypuff:= 2/8

Most likely to Stay from Melee:

:popo: :bowser2: :peach: :zelda:= 5/7

Most likely to Leave:

:ganondorf: :falco:= 1/7

Most likely to Stay from Brawl:

:wario: :pit: :zerosuitsamus: :diddy: :olimar:= 6/6

Most likely to Leave:

:lucario: :snake: :wolf:= 0/6 (although it could be argued that Snake is a 1 thanks to Snake Eater 3D recently but I'm on the fence on how to count remakes.)

That's the breakdown based on the model. If someone is going to be cut from the Melee era, it's most likely to be Ganondorf and/or Falco.

As for the Pokemon Trainer's relevance, I would argue that it is passed because the character design is clearly that of Red from Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green or, if you want to stretch it, Heart Gold/Soul Silver. This traces back to at least the fourth generation of Pokemon and we just about to go into the 6th generation of Pokemon. Also keep in mind that when the roster for Brawl was decided (some speculate as early as the summer of 2005), the 4th generation of Pokemon hadn't even started yet and that Pokemon characters are largely chosen based on their modern popularity. Again, this does not completely rule him out because we don't know how Sakurai judges relevancy in terms of individual character but past patterns suggest that statue 3 and 5 are very likely in most cases.
 

Xigger

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Funny thing about Falco and Wolf. Falco has been around longer and Wolf has an arguably more unique role than Falco, as well as his move set and diversity, yet in Brawl it's said he barely made it in.

So, perhaps it's a matter of which character actually gets finished in time?
 

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If a StarFox character is cut, my bet is on Wolf. I doubt any Melee veteran who made it to Brawl is leaving.
 
D

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Your statements really stick out from everyone else's... Sakurai doesn't want to cut any characters? 7 Pokemon characters, is that counting Pokemon trainer as 3 or 1? You say it so boldly that it's convincing, but it still feels off... The roster isn't seeing as much of a size increase, right? Casting DLC aside, 50 is a very generous roster estimate.

How big do you expect the roster to be? Do you expect most characters to return?
It's pretty obvious Sakurai doesn't like to cut characters. He describe the process behind character selection as being incredibly painful and noted how all of these character had a ton of fans.

Yes I am counting Pokémon Trainer as 3, which is why I say seven characters instead of five characters. I am going by what Sakurai said and count move sets instead of slots.

If we're going by fifty characters, we can fit in the entire Brawl roster (third-party included) and add eleven characters. Take into account the confirmed characters, then add in the leak characters (Pac-Man, Mii and Little Mac). This leaves room for five more characters. Assuming that Mewtwo returns, Roy/Chrom gets in, King K. Rool/Dixie Kong gets in and we get a retro character, that brings us to forty-nine characters and there's still room for one more character (which could be used for anything).

Fifty characters isn't outside of the realm of possibility. Namco is working on the game (they balanced a fifty-nine character roster successfully), we're likely going to be seeing much better compression and we're not going to have to deal with another SSE anymore. An early fifties roster is more likely than what most people think.
 

Xigger

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It's pretty obvious Sakurai doesn't like to cut characters. He describe the process behind character selection as being incredibly painful and noted how all of these character had a ton of fans.

Yes I am counting Pokémon Trainer as 3, which is why I say seven characters instead of five characters. I am going by what Sakurai said and count move sets instead of slots.

If we're going by fifty characters, we can fit in the entire Brawl roster (third-party included) and add eleven characters. Take into account the confirmed characters, then add in the leak characters (Pac-Man, Mii and Little Mac). This leaves room for five more characters. Assuming that Mewtwo returns, Roy/Chrom gets in, King K. Rool/Dixie Kong gets in and we get a retro character, that brings us to forty-nine characters and there's still room for one more character (which could be used for anything).

Fifty characters isn't outside of the realm of possibility. Namco is working on the game (they balanced a fifty-nine character roster successfully), we're likely going to be seeing much better compression and we're not going to have to deal with another SSE anymore. An early fifties roster is more likely than what most people think.
50 is expectable, generous but very plausible. It's just odd to not expect any cut characters, especially since he willingly lets characters be excluded if development proves difficult or undesired.

By the way, I'm loving your attitude.
 

Fatmanonice

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Funny thing about Falco and Wolf. Falco has been around longer and Wolf has an arguably more unique role than Falco, as well as his move set and diversity, yet in Brawl it's said he barely made it in.

So, perhaps it's a matter of which character actually gets finished in time?
Wolf's story is that supposedly he was planned for Melee but when they designed him, he basically ended up as a recolor of Fox (as you can see in the opening cinematic) so they decided to go with Falco instead because he looked more unique. Come Brawl, as you said, he barely made it in and I honestly think it was just to have closure on not having him in Melee. While people debate who is more important in the grand scheme of Star Fox, I would argue that Wolf would be more likely to leave simply because he's only been in one game as opposed to Falco's two.
 

Xigger

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Wolf's story is that supposedly he was planned for Melee but when they designed him, he basically ended up as a recolor of Fox (as you can see in the opening cinematic) so they decided to go with Falco instead because he looked more unique. Come Brawl, as you said, he barely made it in and I honestly think it was just to have closure on not having him in Melee. While people debate who is more important in the grand scheme of Star Fox, I would argue that Wolf would be more likely to leave simply because he's only been in one game as opposed to Falco's two.
I was wondering how Falco beat out Wolf, thank you for that!
 
D

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50 is expectable, generous but very plausible. It's just odd to not expect any cut characters, especially since he willingly lets characters be excluded if development proves difficult or undesired.

By the way, I'm loving your attitude.
I'd say that there is a 50/50 chance of us seeing cuts (including third-parties). There are reasons why we could see characters get axed (time constraints, third-party status or Toon Link possibly getting replaced by another child Link) but on the other hand, Brawl's roster has a stronger cast of character than did Melee. Melee characters had obvious cuts to make in the form of Dr. Mario and Pichu. Dr. Mario and Roy were expendable due to being clones and Mewtwo likely lost a battle with Jigglypuff because Jigglypuff was easier to make (However, Dr. Mario, Roy and Mewtwo all had data in the game, suggesting that they were planned but likely cut due to time constraints).

This time around, there are no obvious cuts left for Nintendo characters. The only one that someone could make a case for leaving is Toon Link and even then he has good reasons to stay as well (and is the best Child Link option available). Every other possible cut options boils down to time constraints (Lucario and Ike) and technical difficulties (Pokémon Trainer) and even with these characters, they have a very strong case for staying and I believe their résumé is what will save their skins. Also keep in mind that there will be Melee cut veterans planned to return (and it almost certainly won't be just Mewtwo) as well as very low priority newcomers, so we could see cuts from Smash 4's roster without having to touch any of the Brawl veterans.
 

Xigger

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Doesn't it feel odd to entitle veterans to return rather than continually testing each character every new game? Especially at the cost of newcomers? Of course people don't want to see characters leave, but over the years either less characters will be added each game or development work will increase to meet that demand.

Given that two companies are already involved to reach 50ish, the game as a series does have to cut back on characters a little. Its the balance between pleasing previous fans and continuing the series.

In short, a character shouldn't have priority over new characters simply for appearing before. For extremes like Pichu, and grey-area cases like Jigglypuff, even unpopular scenarios like Snake or Captain Falcon. They should return for being important to Nintendo, Smash, or the most amount of fans.
 

ZeldaMaster

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Of the characters who made their debut in Brawl and are considered in danger of being removed (ROB, Ike, Wolf, Lucas, Pkmn. Trainer, Lucario, Toon Link, Snake, Sonic)...

1)I honestly don't see Ike or ROB being removed. They are both unique characters. Sure, Mewtwo was removed from Brawl even though he was unique, but then again, part of his moveset is infused with Lucario. For Ike, I see no way in which Chrom can take some of Ike's moves and incorporate it into his own. For that reason, Ike has a lot going for him, and the only thing against him is that he is not recent enough, and that doesn't mean anything. He is the Western FE icon, and the second most important character in the series behind only Marth.

2)As for Wolf and Lucas, I feel like they fit in perfectly to rep their respective series. Starfox is big enough to warrant three reps, and in no way do I see Krystal more important than Wolf. Wolf represents the villain. And as for Lucas, why go from 2 reps to 1 rep? Lucas and Ness together represent the Mother franchise better than any other in Smash Bros, and cutting Lucas is essentially cutting 1/2 of Mother from Smash.

3) Pkmn. Trainer is arguably the most complex character to ever exist in Smash. His rotation-based mechanics between Squirtle-Ivysaur-Charizard was a dream come true in Brawl. Of all trainers in Smash, Red is most iconic. And Charizard, to say the least, is probably (c'mon people, you know it) the second most popular Pokemon behind Pikachu himself. The only way I see PT trainer being cut is if his mechanics are deemed to complex for 3DS to handle, and even if he is too complex, he could be tweaked.

4)Lucario and Toon Link seem to be in the most danger, with the latter being in even more danger. The only way I see Lucario returning is that he is a mascot for Pokemon. Sure, not on the level of Pikachu, but as people on this thread have stated before, more on the level of Charizard and Jiggs. Couple that with the fact that he is more relevant than Zoroark. He also represents Pokemon's latter gens. Arguably, he could be considered the most important pokemon since gen 1. So, if Pokemon is to get 5 reps, then I could see Mewtwo and Lucario coexisting. As for Toon Link, yes the Spirit Train is a factor to consider, but if Zelda is to have two Links again, then for the second Link, Toon Link seems to have much better chances than Young Link or Retro (Link Between Worlds) Link, because the Toon series is essentially 1/2 of the entire Zelda. So Toon Link's inclusion basically depends on whether Sakurai decides to again have two Links.

5)Finally, third party. Unless Sonic and Snake were meant to be Brawl exclusives, I for sure see Sonic returning. Of all third party characters in existence, Sonic fits best with the Nintendo universe, moreso than Megaman. Couple that with the fact that Nintendo and Sega have entered an exclusive contract for three games, and Sonic's overwhelming fan demand, and I say he has very good chances. Snake, on the other hand, was a strange inclusion, and he was only added in Brawl because of Kojima's begging. MGS 5 is also not coming to Wii U. He also really does not fit in with the Nintendo universe as well as his counterparts, Sonic and Megaman, and in recent years, his presence on Nintendo home consoles has been nonexistent. The only thing going for him is that he is a unique character, and adds a different flare to the Smash franchise.

To conclude, ROB, Ike, Wolf, Lucas, and Sonic have very good chances of returning. Pokemon Trainer depends on 3DS hardware limitations, but I say he also has good chances of making a comeback. Lucario, Toon Link, and Snake have weaker chances, but I do think that Sakurai is trying his best to maintain the Brawl roster. The only way I see these characters getting axed is if Sakurai ABSOLUTELY HAS to cut characters due to time constraints.
 

Gam3rALO

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I only see Wolf being cut for being replaced by Krystal but other than that Wolf is staying.
 
D

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Doesn't it feel odd to entitle veterans to return rather than continually testing each character every new game? Especially at the cost of newcomers? Of course people don't want to see characters leave, but over the years either less characters will be added each game or development work will increase to meet that demand.

Given that two companies are already involved to reach 50ish, the game as a series does have to cut back on characters a little. Its the balance between pleasing previous fans and continuing the series.

In short, a character shouldn't have priority over new characters simply for appearing before. For extremes like Pichu, and grey-area cases like Jigglypuff, even unpopular scenarios like Snake or Captain Falcon. They should return for being important to Nintendo, Smash, or the most amount of fans.
We're at the point where people don't need many new characters to be satisfied with the roster. The Top 5 in the West (and arguably internationally) consist of Mewtwo, Mega Man, King K. Rool, Ridley and Roy; two of them are Melee veterans (and Mewtwo is the closest thing to being confirmed outside of leaked characters Pac-Man, Little Mac and Mii) and one is a third-party that's already confirmed to be in. That's only two newcomers left and Ridley is barely requested in Japan. In Japan, Mewtwo and Roy are two of the most requested characters period; considerably more wanted than even Mega Man. The vast majority of people would just be satisfied if we got the following:

- Villager
- Mega Man
- Wii Fit Trainer
- Little Mac
- Mii
- Pac-Man
- Mewtwo
- King K. Rool
- Ridley
- Roy

That's less additions than the original game and two of them are veterans. In other words, just eight newcomers may be enough to placate fans.

Plus the pool for newcomers is much smaller than that of the pool for Brawl. In Brawl, we had quite a few obvious additions such as Wario, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, etc. This time, there is no obvious additions left outside of Mewtwo. Each potential newcomer has at least something that may keep them out. Even the confirmed characters and the leaked characters weren't guaranteed to show up. Mega Man and Pac-Man could have missed if Sakurai didn't want third-parties (which could have very well happened), Sakurai could have never changed his mind on the Villager, he may have gone with someone else for a shock character instead of Wii Fit Trainer, Sakurai could have felt that Little Mac's western demand wasn't enough to justify his inclusion and Sakurai may have never changed his though on the Mii. They may have made it, but there were reasons why this may not have been the case.

Also remember that Sakurai treats each game as if it was the last, so he'll do as much as he can to incorporate whatever ideas he has for this game. I don't think he's too concern about continuing the series with a Smash 5; especially with DLC as an option.
 

G0LD3N L0TUS

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Stop posting. That's a terrible reason to remove Lucario. If anything, I can see Mewtwo return and Lucario as well.
Aaaawwweeee. You hurt my feelings :'(

What part of the word "respectful" didn't you understand? I gave my opinion on the matter, and that's all there is to it. Just because you disagree is a pathetic excuse to be rude. -_-

Anyway, I'll respond to stay on topic:

Lucario is "at risk" because I, personally, doubt any of the three largest Nintendo franchises will receive fifth reps in the new game. If they do, I'm sure Lucario could easily stay. If not, I find it likely that he'll be replaced with a more relevant, important, and popular pokemon, such as Mewtwo.
 

Autumn ♫

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Aaaawwweeee. You hurt my feelings :'(

What part of the word "respectful" didn't you understand? I gave my opinion on the matter, and that's all there is to it. Just because you disagree is a pathetic excuse to be rude. -_-

Anyway, I'll respond to stay on topic:

Lucario is "at risk" because I, personally, doubt any of the three largest Nintendo franchises will receive fifth reps in the new game. If they do, I'm sure Lucario could easily stay. If not, I find it likely that he'll be replaced with a more relevant, important, and popular pokemon, such as Mewtwo.
I'm not sure why the wouldn't have 5 for Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon but okay.
 

G0LD3N L0TUS

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I'm not sure why the wouldn't have 5 for Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon but okay.
The 3DS as unknown limitations that will give a clear limit to the # of characters it can hold. That being said, I'd hope to expect 45 or so characters. I don't think 5th reps hold much priority because the series they'd be representing don't need new reps.
 

Xigger

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I'm not sure why the wouldn't have 5 for Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon but okay.
It's more speculation than a rule: those 3 franchises only have 4 selectable characters (transformations aside) since Melee and Brawl, so some expect the game to stay that way.
 

Diddy Kong

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That's the breakdown based on the model. If someone is going to be cut from the Melee era, it's most likely to be Ganondorf and/or Falco.
I think Sheik and Ice Climbers are much more likely to leave.
 
D

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The 3DS as unknown limitations that will give a clear limit to the # of characters it can hold. That being said, I'd hope to expect 45 or so characters. I don't think 5th reps hold much priority because the series they'd be representing don't need new reps.
I don't think the 3DS is limiting the roster as much as people think. I think when Sakurai said he was keep the volume of the roster in check (although a paraphrase), he was saying that he won't be adding a massive increase of characters. Plus with Namco working on the game along with the fact that most of Brawl was basically SSE and horrible compression not helping out, it's not hard to believe that we'd get fifty to fifty-five characters (transformation included) with no SSE-like mode and that we should get much better compression this time around.
 

HylianHeroBigBoss

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In response to Toon Link: he was never deconfirmed because of the Spirit Tracks stage. You all heard Sakurai in that interview: they haven't made any cuts so far.
I think people are taking that quote too literally. It doesnt mean everyone from the last game is there and accounted for until they are cut, it more than likely just means the roster they currently have for the game hasnt had to scale anything back or remove anyone, and by that i mean the characters they chose which might have already excluded a few from the last game.
 

G0LD3N L0TUS

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I don't think the 3DS is limiting the roster as much as people think. I think when Sakurai said he was keep the volume of the roster in check (although a paraphrase), he was saying that he won't be adding a massive increase of characters. Plus with Namco working on the game along with the fact that most of Brawl was basically SSE and horrible compression not helping out, it's not hard to believe that we'd get fifty to fifty-five characters (transformation included) with no SSE-like mode and that we should get much better compression this time around.
I couldn't tell you. Not even Sakurai knows it's limits yet. He'll find out when he can't cram anything else in the game. I'm expecting 45 - 50, but that's just me. If we get 50 - 55, I think 5th reps would be plausible for the big three. In fact, if we do get that many characters, would could get by without any cuts at all.

I think Sheik and Ice Climbers are much more likely to leave.
Not sure about Sheik, but I definitely think the Ice Climbers are a possibility. Sakurai said he was having trouble with putting them in.
 

Xigger

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I think Sheik and Ice Climbers are much more likely to leave.
I can't see a reason for Sheik to leave... I used to think Sheik was a random addition, unimportant to the overall story of Zelda, but it's hard to think that way when you point out that Sheik is Zelda. A lesser equivalent of Samus and Zero Suit.
 

Diddy Kong

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I can't see a reason for Sheik to leave... I used to think Sheik was a random addition, unimportant to the overall story of Zelda, but it's hard to think that way when you point out that Sheik is Zelda. A lesser equivalent of Samus and Zero Suit.
A far lesser. Zero Suit Samus is at least always in each and every Metroid game simply: Samus without her suit on. She doesn't even has to be playable, but she is.

Each and every Zelda is usally a different incaration of the character, and she has only been Sheik in one game.

I view this as a major difference.
 

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Zero Suit Samus was not in every Metroid game. >_> The Zero Suit thing didn't start until Zero Mission. Before that she had skimpier outfits while suitless in whatever game's endings.
 

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Zero Suit Samus was not in every Metroid game. >_> The Zero Suit thing didn't start until Zero Mission. Before that she had skimpier outfits while suitless in whatever game's endings.
Don't bother with Diddy. He just using his anti-Sheik propaganda machine again.
 

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I know, just saying.
 

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Doesn't it feel odd to entitle veterans to return rather than continually testing each character every new game? Especially at the cost of newcomers? Of course people don't want to see characters leave, but over the years either less characters will be added each game or development work will increase to meet that demand.

Given that two companies are already involved to reach 50ish, the game as a series does have to cut back on characters a little. Its the balance between pleasing previous fans and continuing the series.

In short, a character shouldn't have priority over new characters simply for appearing before. For extremes like Pichu, and grey-area cases like Jigglypuff, even unpopular scenarios like Snake or Captain Falcon. They should return for being important to Nintendo, Smash, or the most amount of fans.
That ties into modern relevance though which was something I covered in the model. Mario's still as important to Nintendo now as he was in the original Smash Bros, Captain Falcon... not so much. Something you have to consider though is how removing older additions disturbs the familiarity of the games. By taking away someone with a long history with the franchise, you disrupt something that the fans immediately notice. Have you ever had Thanksgiving Dinner with the same group of people for years and then one year someone suddenly stopped showing up? That's kind of what it's like. Characters like Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff have been with the series for almost 15 years and to cut them would leave a lot of fans upset in comparison to cutting someone new from Brawl that's only been around for about 5 years.
 

Xigger

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Too true. Especially Captain Falcon, who is like an unofficial mascot for Smash Bros. It's the Brawl or even some Melee characters that are questionable.

Arguably most characters SHOULD return, but with development and planning, you have to think "will we have to cut back?" although that's a matter of comparisons and statistics rather than individual worth. Not fun or nearly perfect on paper, but proper and sometimes mandatory during execution.



Hm... Could you imagine doing that? You need to cut production costs, while considering desires from fans, Nintendo, marketing team, partner companies, the Pokemon Company, and your own standards, desires, and professional choices.

I'm tempted to start a thread asking just that, but I know most people wouldn't go beyond their own opinions.
 

volbound1700

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I do agree that the Brawl roster was a lot more complete than Melee's roster and a lot more popular. There maybe less cuts to the Brawl roster than there was to Melee.

I list the most endanger characters to be Lucas, Toon Link, Snake, Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Lucario. However, their is still arguments for each of those characters being in the game.
 

Reznor

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I do agree that the Brawl roster was a lot more complete than Melee's roster and a lot more popular. There maybe less cuts to the Brawl roster than there was to Melee.

I list the most endanger characters to be Lucas, Toon Link, Snake, Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Lucario. However, their is still arguments for each of those characters being in the game.
still don't know why people don't think we won't get Jiggs
one of the original 12 and easy to program > relevant
also haven't watched the pokemon anime in years but is Jiggs still in it?
 

Diddy Kong

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Zero Suit Samus was not in every Metroid game. >_> The Zero Suit thing didn't start until Zero Mission. Before that she had skimpier outfits while suitless in whatever game's endings.
Thing remains, Samus was always a trained warrior without her Power Suit. Zero Suit Samus was also playable herself multiple times.

Sheik was a one-off Zelda disguise who only teached songs to Link with almost no combat abilities to speak of.
 

ZeldaMaster

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Well, if Sheik were to leave, then would Zelda's moveset change? Would her down B used to tag team with Impa? I doubt that would be the case, since Link's unveiling has already shown that he will not rep. Skyward Sword, and since he isn't why should Zelda? Zelda will probably maintain a closer look towards TP like Link, and since Impa recently appeared in SS, switching from a TP styled Zelda to a SS style Impa would not make much sense. Or, a Zelda transformation could be scrapped all together, but that would take so much away from Zelda as a character. That being said, I want Sheik to stay, she has proven to be a staple of Smash and reps the greatest Zelda game ever.
 

Xigger

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Well, if Sheik were to leave, then would Zelda's moveset change? Would her down B used to tag team with Impa? I doubt that would be the case, since Link's unveiling has already shown that he will not rep. Skyward Sword, and since he isn't why should Zelda? Zelda will probably maintain a closer look towards TP like Link, and since Impa recently appeared in SS, switching from a TP styled Zelda to a SS style Impa would not make much sense. Or, a Zelda transformation could be scrapped all together, but that would take so much away from Zelda as a character. That being said, I want Sheik to stay, she has proven to be a staple of Smash and reps the greatest Zelda game ever.

Thank you.
 

Ridley_Prime

Proteus Geoform
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Thing remains, Samus was always a trained warrior without her Power Suit. Zero Suit Samus was also playable herself multiple times.

Sheik was a one-off Zelda disguise who only teached songs to Link with almost no combat abilities to speak of.
From what the manga showed she was wearing her power suit while receiving her training from the Chozo. How much a warrior she is without it is debatable, especially if stunning pirates with a bottom-of-the-barrel pistol is the best she can do. ZSS playable multiple times? More like a couple, one point in Zero Mission after Tourian, and at the end of Other M...

So? ZSS had no abilities to speak of in Zero Mission besides crawling and using a pistol, yet look what Brawl gave her.
 

Starbound

Worlds Apart, But Still Together.
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yeah, let's cut sheik, make nayru's love zelda's down special and give her light arrows as her neutral special. :troll:
 
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