Cut Veterans: Who do you think WON'T make it?

[shinhed-echi]

To be frank, I honestly ONLY doubt Toon Link's return, for two reasons:

The train, obviously is one.
And the neo/retro Link from a Link Between Worlds. (Which if he is included, he's perhaps the first Link ever, I would gladly consider maining).


I also have a hunch Snake won't return... I don't know, when Sakurai says he wants to try to keep things "Nintendo" I really think he was talking about this guy, as real world Grenades and Rocket Launchers don't really scream "Nintendo" in any way. Perhaps the task of including characters is a much bigger ordeal this time, to just roll with a friends' request?
....or my theory is moot because Snake, last time I checked, was the most popular videogame character in Japan, PERIOD. XD

-
Who I don't doubt:

Pokemon Trainer: He was in the blasted COVER for Brawl. Not Ike, not Olimar, no, out of all newcomers, POKEMON TRAINER was in the cover, and he had some good ammount of scenes in the Subspace Emmisary. I have a feeling Sakurai loves Pokemon Trainer.
Also, he's the main protagonist in so many games (Green,Blue,Red,Yellow,FR,GL,Stadium? + cameos in Gold/Silver HG/SS), and is the spitting image of RED/ASH, so he's pretty much iconic to the series.
Plus there are no "limitations" on the 3DS that would get in the way, since his gimmick is merely transforming characters. If HE poses a problem to return, then so do Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS, and I don't see anyone saying they are unlikely to return, now do I? :D


Sonic: I believe his popularity is still strong as ever, as well as his support. Plus, the recent deal with SEGA, along with Iizuka (SEGA´s ceo) seemingly excited by the idea of Sonic in SSB4... Everything points at Sonic's inclusion.

 

[Xigger]

Lots of interesting ideas and opinions. Mostly on the clones, Lucario, and Snake, but interesting nonetheless.

But to be brutally honest, down to the bare-boned truth, the character roster depends on Sakurai's current ideals and in development decisions. A list of characters are considered and worked on: they get dropped due to some factor or due to a in-the-moment choice from the director. Toon Link, Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Sonic are considered last-minute Brawl additions, which may have not happened at all, not by plan but based on corporate decision and development timeframes. Just like Mewtwo and Roy were half-worked into Brawl yet were cut.

In short, it's impossible to tell. Kind of a shame to think like that.

 

[Starbound]

Ike and Lucario seem like lower priority characters to me, since they both have newcomers Mewtwo and Chrom to compete for development time with, and I think that the relevancy with the newer characters leads to them being higher priority to complete.

 

[TheBakonBitz]

Lucas
Jigglypuff
Toon Link - Unless they de-clone him.

 

[Dark Phazon]

this thread....

 

[I_hate_usernames]

The clones....


All of them...

 

[FalKoopa]

The clones....


All of them...

I'll miss you, Luigi.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I'm totally expecting for this thread to get locked, TBH. Mostly because flame wars might start/already have started ( ). Anyways, I'm not expecting any cuts unless, it has to do with time constraints. And the ones were already said on this thread, as I hate to admit since most are my mains.

 

[Xigger]

View attachment 1296 this thread....

Your signature says it all! Very well put. But only those who really love Smash would put gameplay above character selection...

I'm totally expecting for this thread to get locked, TBH. Mostly because flame wars might start/already have started ( ). Anyways, I'm not expecting any cuts unless, it has to do with time constraints. And the ones were already said on this thread, as I hate to admit since most are my mains.

If you're not expecting any cuts, then you aren't being very realistic. Not only that it's been made very clearly that the roster size won't increase very much, but it has already been decided that many characters will not return.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I'll miss you, Luigi.

If Luigi doesn't get a more Luigi's mansion themed moveset for the next smash I'll be severely disappointed. He has all the potential in the world to not be a clone....maybe since it's the year of Luigi he'll get his own moveset.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're not expecting any cuts, then you aren't being very realistic. Not only that it's been made very clearly that the roster size won't increase very much, but it has already been decided that many characters will not return.

He said he didn't expect any cuts unless it was due to time constraints. At least for Nintendo characters, that's a reasonable expectation.

And Sakurai has not confirmed cuts on Brawl veterans, let alone there would be many.

 

[MrBigstuff]

The only thing that makes me think PT may get cut is Gen I is already WAY overrepresented. 6 of the 7 playable Pokemon have been from Gen I. SIX out of SEVEN! And the only non Gen I playable Pokemon has a chance of being cut and replaced again w/ Mewtwo. I would be completely happy with a Hoenn Trainer if he wants to keep the gimmick, or even Sinnoh could work. Unova wouldn't really work (Snivy line would pose problems), and we don't know about Gen VI.

I'm expecting the 3rd parties to be dropped. I think they had their shot and guest staring in a Nintendo all-stars game should be a one time deal. I almost want Falco to be cut. Starfox is basically a dead series and Falco is much clonier than Wolf. I think that spot could be put to better use. I think Ike will stay. He's a unique character, unlike Roy.

Oh, and Toon Link is gone. He's the cloniest character in the cast, plus being on the train. Whether he's getting replaced by a new small Link is debatable, but I'm guessing not.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Seems like it's cool or alright if you think like Snake will be cut or want him gone, but for almost anyone else, oh no. You're just a goddamn hater.

 

[Starbound]

>There's a Toon Link on the Spirit Tracks stage.
>Sakurai has yet to make any cuts from the Brawl roster

How does the Spirit Tracks stage affect Toon Link's fate?

 

[Curious Villager]

Don't bother with the whole Spirit Train stage debacle. People will continue to use Spirit Tracks Link as a definite 100% cut of Wind Waker Link like they used Lucas as a definite 100% cut of Ness during the Brawl days until the game is out and the full roster is revealed. As if it's impossible for the both of them to coexist....

You're honestly just better off waiting and see what will happen...

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I get the feeling Toon Link is being replaced with Classic Link (the link who'll be appearing in the link to the past sequel)

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

The only one that would surprise me to see return would be Snake. He definitely seemed like a one-off character and he only got in because Kojima begged for him to be added. He arguably fit the more realistic visual style of brawl, but I'm not sure he'd go well with this brighter, more colorful look.

Why does he seem like a one off? Just because he was requested to be in doesnt mean his presence has a time limit. Also he could easily work in this game with its brighter visuals, he fit in dream mix tv world fighters so he can adjust just like everyone else.

I also have a hunch Snake won't return... I don't know, when Sakurai says he wants to try to keep things "Nintendo" I really think he was talking about this guy, as real world Grenades and Rocket Launchers don't really scream "Nintendo" in any way. Perhaps the task of including characters is a much bigger ordeal this time, to just roll with a friends' request?
....or my theory is moot because Snake, last time I checked, was the most popular videogame character in Japan, PERIOD. XD

When did he say he wants to keep things just nintendo? I dont think snakes presence would harm that in anyway, he just had snake eater on their new handheld, is more required?

Seems like it's cool or alright if you think like Snake will be cut or want him gone, but for almost anyone else, oh no. You're just a goddamn hater.

Thats what bugs me most, all just assume hes the most likely cut based on nothing, i see it on every board. He and sonic are in the same boat, one has nothing over the other no matter how much BS factors people can come up with. Sakurai would more than likely treat them equally out of respect for the series and their characters.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I also want to mention Snake fits right in. Why? Because the character is campy and not serious at all. He's essentially a parody of most movie protagonist, so he fits with Nintendo's colorful cast. Hell, Link is super gritty compared to Snake.

I wonder if people are aware MGS as a whole is campy and isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's a ridiculous series but it's self-aware of that.

I still haven't seen a good reason why Lucario won't be in the next one either. Snake has the danger of Kojima or Sakurai not wanting the character to be in (though I doubt it), but Game Freak is gonna make sure Luke will stay. Period.

 

[Reznor]

I wonder if people are aware MGS as a whole is campy and isn't meant to be taken seriously. It's a ridiculous series but it's self-aware of that.

weird how when ever I meet a MGS fan they take the story seriously

and I think Snake has a better chance than most people think but I doubt we will get another MGS character with him

 

[Spinosaurus]

weird how when ever I meet a MGS fan they take the story seriously

Kingdom Hearts fans take KH story seriously too, doesn't mean anything, except that fans are crazy.

Trying to make heads or tails out of MGS lore will only make you insane.

 

[Starbound]

I still haven't seen a good reason why Lucario won't be in the next one either. Snake has the danger of Kojima or Sakurai not wanting the character to be in (though I doubt it), but Game Freak is gonna make sure Luke will stay. Period.

It's entirely possible that Lucario could be a low priority character when it comes to Pokemon.

Mewtwo has that new movie and much more fan demand, so I would certainly expect that Mewtwo would be higher priority to complete.

We already know that Jigglypuff was easier to program into Brawl than Mewtwo was, so why wouldn't Jigglypuff be easier to program than Lucario? In the event of a time crunch, Jigglypuff will be in over Lucario due to her simplicity.

That really just leaves Pokemon Trainer, and I honestly think that these two are the lowest two of the five Pokemon characters. Both are really unique. Pokemon Trainer is harder to program, but he has the benefit of appealing to fans due to Charizard existing in his character. I think it's a toss up between these two, but if I were Sakurai, I wouldn't want to be "That Guy Who Cut Charizard".

We know that every character from Brawl is currently planned to get in, but if anyone gets cut, it will be due to a lack of development time.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Hmm. Sorry, don't want to come off as a hater or anything. I don't really appreciate MGS because I just don't care about the series too much. I would only play them for the vg-cultural factor.
But from a personal and casual point of view, Snake just doesn't fit in, not in my eyes. It seems to me more right up Sony's alley.

It's not about jumping on an anti-Snake bandwagon to me, it's just that he simply sticks out to me. And he'll only stick out more with the more cartoonier designs now. (But designs aside, it's more about the weapons for me).

I really don't mind if he returns, but I have my reasons to just have a hunch that he won't make it back. That's not even a very solid state of belief. Sakurai not cutting characters (or trying not to), and Snake's popularity tell me otherwise.

 

[Spinosaurus]

But Snake IS as cartoony as you get, regardless of his design.

It's entirely possible that Lucario could be a low priority character when it comes to Pokemon.

Mewtwo has that new movie and much more fan demand, so I would certainly expect that Mewtwo would be higher priority to complete.

We already know that Jigglypuff was easier to program into Brawl than Mewtwo was, so why wouldn't Jigglypuff be easier to program than Lucario? In the event of a time crunch, Jigglypuff will be in over Lucario due to her simplicity.

That really just leaves Pokemon Trainer, and I honestly think that these two are the lowest two of the five Pokemon characters. Both are really unique. Pokemon Trainer is harder to program, but he has the benefit of appealing to fans due to Charizard existing in his character. I think it's a toss up between these two, but if I were Sakurai, I wouldn't want to be "That Guy Who Cut Charizard".

We know that every character from Brawl is currently planned to get in, but if anyone gets cut, it will be due to a lack of development time.

Low priority? Doubt it. When it comes to Pokemon, Game Freak makes the call (as confirmed by Sakurai himself). It's not even a priority.

As I don't consider an anime movie a solid reason for a Pokemon's relevancy. Mewtwo might have a big role in it (not as big as Genesect though, it is its movie), but it doesn't mean anything. Not compared to marketing, in which case Lucario has a much bigger upperhand. Appearing in one movie and having one trailer with a new form with no other marketing isn't really much compared to being essentially the mascot of Pokemon Smash! and being a key Pokemon for promotional purposes for B/W2. Lucario is also available before the first gym in B/W2, clearly due to his huge popularity, and also has appeared in more events in Japan and US than Mewtwo.


Not to mention Lucario is popular in every single Pokemon fanbase. Competitive battling? You got it. Casuals? Marketing helps! Die-hard fans? Of course! I only see Charizard's popularity from nostalgia. Casuals don't care about him (Rayquaza is now they key dragon Pokemon) and he's **** in competitive battling, as for the die-hard fans in all my years hanging around with Pokemon fans I've seen much more Luke fans than Charizard. Mewtwo has the benefit of being in X/Y with a new transformation so he has that going for him. But hey, I bet Luke is gonna be in X/Y, too! He's been in every game since D/P, and hasn't been in the pre-dex in B/W and HG/SS for obvious reasons. (Being a gen 4 Pokemon in games that only has specific gen Pokemon pre-dex.)


Sorry, I just think it's BS people think Pokemon Trainer is gonna stay because "Charizard in it!", but Lucario clearly has a lower chance of returning because he's not gen 1! It's like they don't know how Game Freak is pushing Lucario ever since he was first revealed while ignoring Charizard. There will be a bigger outcry for Lucario's exclusion than Charizard or Mewtwo. Not from the Smash Bros fanbase, but from the extremely large Pokemon fanbase.

Like I said Lucario has:
1) Popularity
2) Relevance (why is this even a thing for Pokemon?)
3) Marketing
4) Uniqueness
5) Diversity

Charizard only has 1. Mewtwo only has 1, 4, and 2 (which is debatable in the long run until we know his actual role in X/Y. If he's just an event Pokemon post-game without marketing comparable to Luke's then eh). This isn't to speak anything against Mewtwo or Pokemon Trainer though, but from a business standpoint, I'd give Lucario higher "priority" over the two.

But honest question now, do people in these boards know much about Pokemon and the fanbase beyond gen 3? Because a lot of posts I've seen makes me doubt that, frankly.

 

[Starbound]

I'm not saying Lucario is unpopular. I'm really not sure where you got that from either. I'm saying that he's not as popular for the fanbase as a whole when compared Mewtwo, Pikachu or Charizard, and he's not as easily to program as Jigglypuff. I fully admit that Lucario is a popular Pokemon in many forms of Pokemon media.

GameFreak may make the calls, but they aren't the ones doing the programming. If Sakurai asks for all the Brawl veterans, as well as Mewtwo, but he only has time to do four, then what?

"As I don't consider an anime movie a solid reason for a Pokemon's relevancy."
You may not, but that doesn't mean Sakurai doesn't. In an interview where he explained how he decided what Pokemon get in to Smash Bros, he clearly mentioned appearances in recent films.

And I do agree with you that relevancy is a terrible reason for supporting a Pokemon. They change the relevant Pokemon like every two years or so. >_>

And yes, I do know about Pokemon post-Gen3. I've actually yet to complete a game from the first and second generations. Sapphire and Pearl were my first two games, and I picked up both Black and Black 2 on their launch dates.

 

[Xigger]

Let's see... Debating Lucario's popularity, Snake's design, and Sakurai isn't expecting any cuts. Here's how I see it.

Game Freak shows a pattern of representing a new Pokemon game with one Pokemon as the main representative. Lucario no longer applies. He's cast aside with Jigglypuff and Pichu: old Pokemon, no longer a rep, unlike Pikachu, PT, and Mewtwo. Start thinking about Lucario from that position.

Snake... Kojima was a fan of getting MGS in crossovers. Some say it was keeping a promise from Melee, some say advertising for MGS4. It depends on Sakurai and Konamis current desires, which we have no indications of.
BUT. Technical issue. David Hayter (English actor) no longer voices Snake. His voice went out in MGS4. Snake would have no new lines, a new broken voice, or a new voice actor.

Sakurai isn't cutting anyone, that keeps getting mentioned. It's wrong. To be politically correct, it's undetermined but reasonably won't be Brawl's roster with bonus newcomers.
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/197055...t_have_time_to_bring_all_characters_back.html

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If DLC happens, I doubt there will be cuts at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Really, Lucario only goes if time constraints gets in the way and he's not a high enough priority. Which may happen, but even then I find this to be unlikely considering that Sakurai has a different attitude in regards to cuts (looking like he's going to be trying to save every Nintendo character from Brawl and really hate the idea).

Another thing to note is that there is a really high chance of Pokémon getting seven characters in SSB4. The franchise was planned to have seven in Brawl, possibly even eight. If Sakurai wanted to bring in seven characters for Brawl, then with a larger roster than before, its easy to imagine the series getting seven characters (and Pokémon is known for having a diverse cast of characters which explains the increase in characters by two games each game). Mewtwo, Jigglypuff and Pokémon will likely get priority, but should there be a seventh character, it will almost certainly be used for Lucario's return. Even in the off-chance Lucario gets cut due to time constraints, he'll come back anyway if we get DLC characters (which are 50/50).

Let's see... Debating Lucario's popularity, Snake's design, and Sakurai isn't expecting any cuts. Here's how I see it.

Game Freak shows a pattern of representing a new Pokemon game with one Pokemon as the main representative. Lucario no longer applies. He's cast aside with Jigglypuff and Pichu: old Pokemon, no longer a rep, unlike Pikachu, PT, and Mewtwo. Start thinking about Lucario from that position.

Sakurai isn't cutting anyone, that keeps getting mentioned. It's wrong. To be politically correct, it's undetermined but reasonably won't be Brawl's roster with bonus newcomers.
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/197055...t_have_time_to_bring_all_characters_back.html

The pattern is flawed. Pichu was not added due to recency but because he was a joke character suggestion. His negative reception is what lead to Pichu not only being removed but not even planned to return. Heck, Melee almost did not get a 2nd gen rep at all; we could have just gotten Pikachu, Jigglypuff and Mewtwo that game. Also, taking at look at how new Pokémons like Lucario are chosen for SSB, it seems as recency is only used to spot recent Pokémon and then they go from there in regards to which are memorable Pokémon and what they can bring.

Basically, recency got Lucario noticed, but it wasn't an important factor in his inclusion. His potential to be a memorable character (which he ended up being) and what he could bring was what mattered and what got him in. How else do you explain him being heavily advertised during Gen 5 and at some points, even more than Zoroark who was built up as the mascot?

Also, that article refers to everyone, including characters from Melee. He did not specified that he didn't have time to bring back every Brawl veterans.

 

[Xigger]

Your statements really stick out from everyone else's... Sakurai doesn't want to cut any characters? 7 Pokemon characters, is that counting Pokemon trainer as 3 or 1? You say it so boldly that it's convincing, but it still feels off... The roster isn't seeing as much of a size increase, right? Casting DLC aside, 50 is a very generous roster estimate.

How big do you expect the roster to be? Do you expect most characters to return?

 

[Curious Villager]

Pokemon did have 6 playable characters in Brawl (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard and Lucario).

Sakurai does count transformations when it comes to the roster so its not unreasonable to say that pokemon has technically 6 playable characters in Brawl. So it's fair to say that pokemon could have 7 characters this time around. (or 8 if Mewtwo's Awakened form becomes playable too as a transformation and of course assuming the seventh would be Mewtwo and all of the Brawl Pokemon return)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think it wouldn't make any sence to cut Pokémon Trainer and Ike. And I have a big dislike for anyone saying Lucas or Wolf / Falco should be cut as well.

Sheik, Toon Link, Ice Climbers, Lucario, Snake and Sonic are the characters I'd like to see go first.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Wow, no one seems to have a problem with Snake going when he has absolutely no reason to.

Anyway, I'm thinking that Toon Link and Lucario are goners for sure. Ike and Lucas could be axed, but they have more staying power than the other two.

inb4: "Toon Link is staying because it's ST Link"

Why would they stick Toon Link in a stage AND make him a playable character? That's just dumb.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Sheik replacing Impa. Now that Toon Link's practically deconfirmed, Impa's the only good choice left for a Zelda character. And being a Sheikah, she would have to take Sheik's old moveset.

 

[Curious Villager]

inb4: "Toon Link is staying because it's ST Link"

Why would they stick Toon Link in a stage AND make him a playable character? That's just dumb.

Why would they make R.O.B an enemy AND make it a playable character? That's just dumb. Oh wait....

Why would they make Captain Falcon drive the Blue Falcon in the F-Zero stages AND make him a playable character? That's just dumb. Oh wait....

You see why some people find the Spirit Train stage a very weak argument?

 

[RavenKingSage]

Why would they make R.O.B an enemy AND a playable character? That's just dumb. Oh wait....

Why would they make Captain Falcon drive the Blue Falcon in the F-Zero stages AND a playable character? That's just dumb. Oh wait....

You see why people find the Spirit Train stage a very silly argument?

Toon Link is supposed to be a unique character. It makes sense for R.O.B. to be both a generic enemy and a playable character because he can be manufactured. He's a robot.

And no one ever cared to notice the Blue Falcon being driven in F-Zero stages. You can't ignore Toon Link conducting the train though, as they shoved it in people's faces on the website.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yeah one reason for Lucario to be cut is due to time constraint but really it boils down to Mewtwo or Lucario at that point. If you want to cater to Smash fans, keep Mewtwo, if it's Pokemon fans you want, keep Lucario.

I doubt it though. I think we're definitely getting both of them. It's PT who I'm more concerned about. Either he gets cut completely or gets a different generation starters, probably gen 6.

And yes, I do know about Pokemon post-Gen3. I've actually yet to complete a game from the first and second generations. Sapphire and Pearl were my first two games, and I picked up both Black and Black 2 on their launch dates.

I wasn't speaking about you. Poor wording on my part.
I was surprised you'd rather be "that guy who cut Lucario" than "that guy who cut Charizard" though.

 

[Curious Villager]

So you admit that the R.O.B. enemies are different entities from the one who is playable. People here also told me that people thought that those R.O.B. enemies where used as a definite confirmation that R.O.B. wouldn't be playable in Brawl. Yet look what happened. And frankly, people did notice the Blue Falcon being driven whereas Captain Falcon is still fighting outside of it.

We shouldn't use vague images with little to no info as a 100% confirmation that some characters are cut, staying or joining unless Sakurai outright confirms it himself, or we see the final roster for ourselves. (Yes this pretty much also goes for the Punch out! and Arena Ferox Stages too)

Look, just give me a very good reason why it's so impossible for Spirit Tracks Link and Wind Waker Link to coexist if he really confirms him to be 100% cut. Especially when you consider the fact that 1. They are two completely different people and 2. They have different appearances and 3. We had stuff like this happen before.

Gosh I told myself and ThatWasPeachy not to bother with these stupid arguments anymore since they are getting us nowhere yet here I am bothering with them again...

 

[Z1GMA]

I also have a hunch Snake won't return... I don't know, when Sakurai says he wants to try to keep things "Nintendo" I really think he was talking about this guy, as real world Grenades and Rocket Launchers don't really scream "Nintendo" in any way. Perhaps the task of including characters is a much bigger ordeal this time, to just roll with a friends' request?
....or my theory is moot because Snake, last time I checked, was the most popular videogame character in Japan, PERIOD. XD

He doesn't want to keep Snake, give parst of his moveset to Sami.

 

[Diddy Kong]

EDIT: Forgot to mention Sheik replacing Impa. Now that Toon Link's practically deconfirmed, Impa's the only good choice left for a Zelda character. And being a Sheikah, she would have to take Sheik's old moveset.

And again, my theory proofs itself that outside of Smashboards, people find this extremely logical to happen.

<3

 

[Curious Villager]

Gotta have some Impa propaganda every once in a while don't we Didz?

 

[Swift Fox]

Why would they stick Toon Link in a stage AND make him a playable character? That's just dumb.

That's just dumb.

Sakurai may think differently.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I haven't used the name Impa till this very sentence. I was merely stating that outside of SmashBoards and *******, Impa replacing Sheik isn't as big of a taboo as on here. It could very well be that I created a lot of opposition about this myself on here. But I would've dropped the subject if the opposition was actually justified by logic, and not some lame 'anti-cut' sentiment. I predicted cuts since the beginning, and ever since pre-Brawl, I felt that out of all characters with an unique moveset, Sheik should leave first if anything. Was extremely pissed to see Mewtwo go before her. And now, Impa is a legitimate replacement for her, and like RavenKingSage himself even stated, she's the only viable Zelda newcomer.