Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Plum]

I was talking to I_Am_Plum

Snake is practically a twig compared to DDD's girth >.> I don't think its their weight that is the problem as much as it is the hurtbox size. The weight would certainly make it more effective, but I'm sure you can cut a lot of DDD's weight out and keep his hurtbox the same size and he would still have problems with getting out of PK Fire.

I was saying how its basically impossible for a character like DDD to get out of it before Ness can followup on it. That pillar is pretty big, and can sit there mashing my C-stick to SDI out of it but DDD's huge hurtbox just keeps him in the pillar long enough for Ness to do something to me. If Ness just sits there and does nothing, then yeah I get out perfectly fine well before the pillar disappears, but why would Ness just sit there? Maybe I'm just horrible at mashing my C-stick, but to me it seems like a followup is practically guaranteed on hit. Now, I shouldn't be one to talk about comboing regardless of % because DDD's Dair fits that role too, but PK Fire, Fair, and Dthrow all seem to combo to **** no matter what. I can't say much from experience, but to me on paper it seems that Ness gained far more than what it takes to be a viable character... But whatever... I'll just go G&W in any serious match against Ness...

I've played against Ness like once or twice since 5.0 as DDD, so for all I know its just inexperience against him. It's just what I noticed from whatever few matches I played against a Ness. I would love a better response than "no johns" or "get better" though. That certainly doesn't help to any conversation :V

 

[thesage]

Is it broken that Ness can have a followup move after pk fire? Imo that's the whole point of the move. The thing is way too slow and doesn't have enough range to be spammed excessively. I think the damage could be nerfed, not how well it holds somebody in.

Pk fire to pk fire for more than 2 times should never work on anybody though. I tested it out back when pk fire was "even better" (it was actually worse, but don't tell anybody that) and it didn't work. Just practice getting out of it in training mode or something, not that hard...

Once you have a pk fire that is easy as balls to di out of (ie any easier than it is right now), you'll have the previous incarnations of pk fire, all of which sucked. This is the first time the move was useable. The current di'ability of pk fifre should be left alone.

 

[TerraScythe]

Once you have a pk fire that is easy as balls to di out of (ie any easier than it is right now), you'll have the previous incarnations of pk fire, all of which sucked. This is the first time the move was useable. The current di'ability of pk fifre should be left alone.

Agreed, leave the DI requirement the same.
So if anything, the cooldown can be slighty longer and/or the fire do less damage.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hey guys.

Guess what?

Hackfest 3.0 vids of CK's ness!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNf5DloexOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg21B-KLHV8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAoOI99zY1s

BTW, stop complaining about PK fire. It can easily be SDI'd. It only seems to utterly **** fatties.

 

[JCaesar]

Your friend is finally getting those videos up, eh? Only a month late...

That's the last time I let someone else handle the videos from one of my tournaments. I already have all the matches up from the tournament that was 3 days ago.

Sorry, off-topic I know, I've just been frustrated about the Hackfest videos.

 

[GHNeko]

I joke about PK Fire and everyone thinks everyone is *****ing. Lol.

PK Fire is mad easy for me to get out with. :3

After all, the move doesnt combo. All the hits are strings and I can just Counter (Marth) PK fire to avoid follow ups. :3

Mario is differnet though.

 

[[TSON]]

yeah.

Oh btw, you can use Z to do DJC airdodges.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

o that's neat

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

@those video:

i've only seen the first two, but...

I can understand messing up DI on occassion, but it looked like in those two videos that like every kill hit was DI'd wrong and the multihits of ness' fair and fox's dair had no attempt at DI

EDIT: saw third match: yeah....otherwise kinda standard stuff....some good reads at parts

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

...
Simna(Ness) vs. skstylez(Samus)YS1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogjg-taIWRM

what's up people? (not a MtH reference)

 

[Dajayman]

What's MtH?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Maximum the Hormone

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm not sure the Ness thread got really quiet.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

any more peopl have vids?

 

[RPGsFTW]

any more peopl have vids?

If I had some sort of **** capture device I'd have a bunch of vids!

Unless there is some other way I could do it for free.

 

[Dajayman]

Send your replays to somebody who has a capture device.

 

[[TSON]]

I have a buncha WiFi matches but I see no point in uploading them :V

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

me neither

 

[thesage]

Anybody have the sheildstun values for Ness' aerials and moves?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Send your replays to somebody who has a capture device.

I need someone with a capture device who is willing to upload my videos. Not too sure, but they might not play correctly because I changed the in-game music so I could place my custom songs.

If someone wouldn't mind upload vids for me I'd sent them to that person in a heart beat.

 

[CountKaiser]

Anybody have the sheildstun values for Ness' aerials and moves?

Jab
First hit: 7 frames
Second hit: 5 frames
Third hit: 7 frames

Dash Attack
Each hit: 7 frames

Ftilt
High: 13 frames
Mid and Low: 11 frames

Utilt
9 frames

Dtilt
7 frames

Fsmash
Innermost hitbox: 17 frames
Second outermost hitbox: 19 frames
Tip: 21 frames

Usmash
Initial hit: 7 frames
First hitbox: 11 frames
Second hitbox: 13 frames

Dsmash
Initial hit: 7 frames
Actual hitbox: 13 frames

Nair
First hitbox: 11 frames
Second hitbox: 9 frames

Fair
Linking hit: 5 frames
Final hit: 7 frames

Bair
Sweetspot: 15 frames
Sourspot: 9 frames

Uair
13 frames

Dair
Sweetspot: 13 frames
Sourspot: 11 frames

PKT
9 frames

PK Flash
Fully charged: 29 frames
Uncharged: Either 11 or 13 frames, depending on how much an uncharged PK Flash does

PK Fire
7 frames

 

[Magus420]

When considering differences in hitlag of Ness and the person shielding, add/subtract these numbers from those:

F-Air: -1 (final hitbox only)
and if Ness doesn't go into hitlag himself when these projectiles hit a shield:
PK Fire: +2
PKT1: +3 (head); +2 (tail)

 

[Deleted member]

Uhhh, how do I DJC?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

double jump without holding the button + aerial..

if you hold the jump button, you'll just do a rising aerial.

 

[CountKaiser]

Has anyone seen this channel?

http://www.youtube.com/user/GameGalaxyBrawl

Has some pretty crazy Ness vids.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i saw 4 of them....i dont like some of the decisions he was making....it seemed like his playstyle wasnt adjusting to his opponent's characters and he was just playing as usual vs. whatever opponent.

He also seemed to limit his moves a lot. Edgeguarding was limited, and upB/sideB use was minimal.

Speed was okay, but I think he needs to get into his opponent's head more and also make a little more use of DjC.

relatively good tho i think

 

[ZeonStar]

Ness is pretty much broken right now, people who disagree have either not seen what he can do, or are just plain stupid.

 

[shanus]

His ness needs work. He mostly just camped fair which sadly works

More use of DJC and abusable PKT1 and his ness could easily be a lot more deadly.

 

[ZeonStar]

I just want to see some changes, I liked what your guys were going for, but his fair is too good, it easily links into dair offstage, and his shield is way too good as an edgeguard, I almost dont want to travel to tournaments just because of ness. KO doesnt even use ness, he picked ness up that day just to show how stupid he is.

 

[Alphatron]

It's pretty much agreed on that fair is too good. Assuming you're talking about PSI magnet as too good of an edgegaurd, I'll just say that anyone who believes it is too good must play as a character with an already crappy recovery. The wind effect doesn't suck, but I've yet to see any tourney matches where it utterly stomped recoveries. Especially since it lost its super armour and is useless against any UpB that actually hits Ness.

Basically, PSI magnet is still a situational move. Unless someone can prove it's useful at gtfo tactics or can gimp characters before or during their UpB.

 

[shanus]

I just want to see some changes, I liked what your guys were going for, but his fair is too good, it easily links into dair offstage, and his shield is way too good as an edgeguard, I almost dont want to travel to tournaments just because of ness. KO doesnt even use ness, he picked ness up that day just to show how stupid he is.

I've been toying with modifications which make fair have more SDI on the linking hits, higher BKB (slight), and more KBG which greatly seem to make the move less ridiculous as it places more power in the opponent for the linking hits, and the final hit is less stupid in its follow-ups.

Also removed the PKT1 endlag speed up as its just insanely good in its current state.

 

[CountKaiser]

Not only insanely good, but also insanely spammable.

Though I will miss using PKT as an edgeguard into whatever.

At least PK Flash will get fixed.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i have some ideas for how fair can be changed that i think would work awesomely when we decide to change things. I don't know about all of the SA capabilities, but my idea consists of taking the final hit of fair and making it smaller and moving it in closer to Ness' hands and then making up for lost range on the final hit by adding 3 additional hitboes onto the move(also small....only big enough to make up for the range loss so it ends up being the same range). Then you make those outer 3 hitboxes highly DI-able and have them hit in such a way that they have little hitstun and high knockback but low growth. We would then give the inner comboing hitbox priority over the outer ones in the case that both hit at the same time, but that would make it so Ness could still do the same stuff with fair, but only if he was using it close in......he could still space with fair, but if he did then he couldnt be able to combo with it. I think by doing that Ness still has the combo fair and the ranged fair, but not the combined combo+range fair making it much less spammy.

I still think we shouldnt be changing stuff around this soon though.

Speaking of things......has 5.0 Ness won any tournaments?

 

[GHNeko]

NOOOPE.

He has not won anything except a place into people's list of **** to complain about. :V

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

That sounds like something to consider.....Ness hasn't even won any tournaments yet....

we should definitely wait longer

 

[CountKaiser]

Well see, the thing is people are getting good placement with ness and have never used the character before.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Are we really trying to rationalize a poorly done/******** change by saying "but that character hasn't won tournaments yet?" Let's just make several broken moves for characters to be on the same offensive aggro spam level as Ness and see how that goes.

One more time... whoever was behind anything having to do with the current state of Ness's Fair and didn't have the foresight to test the results needs to be tied to a mast and flogged.

 

[Alphatron]

After Ness gets nerfed, people need to mass pick Olimar at tournaments. Then we'd have a new character to complain about.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Oddly enough no one talks about Olimaru even though his grab has become even more of a ***** with the global spot dodge nerf.

 

[CountKaiser]

Are we really trying to rationalize a poorly done/******** change by saying "but that character hasn't won tournaments yet?" Let's just make several broken moves for characters to be on the same offensive aggro spam level as Ness and see how that goes.

One more time... whoever was behind anything having to do with the current state of Ness's Fair and didn't have the foresight to test the results needs to be tied to a mast and flogged.

I did test it, but apparently not enough.

Thank you, however, for the kind words. Please take them elsewhere.