Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[shanus]

Are we really trying to rationalize a poorly done/******** change by saying "but that character hasn't won tournaments yet?" Let's just make several broken moves for characters to be on the same offensive aggro spam level as Ness and see how that goes.

One more time... whoever was behind anything having to do with the current state of Ness's Fair and didn't have the foresight to test the results needs to be tied to a mast and flogged.

You already know that changes will eventually be made, so whats the point of tihs post?

P.S. its not like zelda's usmash / fsmash / etc. wasn't retardedly good for sometime either, so yeah, hypocritical words are hypocritical

 

[Rykoshet]

It's pretty much agreed on that fair is too good. Assuming you're talking about PSI magnet as too good of an edgegaurd, I'll just say that anyone who believes it is too good must play as a character with an already crappy recovery.

In a game where everyone has a relatively crappy recovery it can (and with a proper usage of it + hogging, definitely will) take out a good portion of the cast if used correctly. It's not that the windbox is powerful (though it really is) but that it emanates not from ness, but from a huge *** AOE around ness that pushes a good quarter stage out and unless I'm imagining ****, requires absolutely nothing for timing correctly. Coupled with the fact that a windbox edgeguard is unique in that it's the only kind that doesnt give someone their up B back you're smoking if you think it's not straight diesel.

I play a character that is on a whole absolutely unaffected by it and even I can see it needs to be tweaked.

 

[ChaosKnight]

i play marth and i destroy the whole cast

 

[Mattnumbers]

The psi Magnet wind isn't all that much, most characters are unaffected by it as far as I've seen. You should be going for an autosnap anyways when you recover.

 

[thesage]

Cape, Fludd and water gun also don't give back up-b and are good edgeguards. The only problem I have with psi magnet is that it should push people away before I get hit, not after lol.

Let's look at characters that are affected by it though....

Ness (in many different ways though)
Mario
Luigi
Ike (side b)
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Wario (if forced to recover with up-b)
Marth's (with bad spacing of up-b)
Yoshi (?????)
Diddy Kong (up-b)
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Pikachu (side-b)
Peach (misspaced up-b)
GaW (misspaced up-b)
Charizard (up-b)
Ganon
Falcon
Kirby (up-b)
DDD (up-b)

I believe that's everybody???

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You already know that changes will eventually be made, so whats the point of tihs post?

P.S. its not like zelda's usmash / fsmash / etc. wasn't retardedly good for sometime either, so yeah, hypocritical words are hypocritical

Tell me how they were retardedly good. Zelda's Usmash was ******** at its default but had random escapes. It was nerfed several times since then at the cost of linking. Fsmash was never broken.

 

[thesage]

Take the pissing matches to private messages or something. I don't need people calling each other stupid in something that may or may not be directly or indirectly related to Ness in brawl+.

In other news.... Everybody here knows how to sweetspot pkt2 at the edge right? I used to be able to do it before I went to playing 90% melee and 8% brawl+. Practice it for an hour and you got it pretty much.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ness's Fair is already taking in enough piss to drown even the most experienced prostitutes... except Simna and :V, of course.

As far as Ness's PSI Magnet, the alteration of the 169 angle to a 30 angle is the culprit as far as silly effective windguards.

 

[GHNeko]

wait what. wtf is that supposed to mean.

 

[JCaesar]

I dunno, but you definitely just got burned and it was hilarious.

 

[GHNeko]

Ryoko is always insulting me. >:

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Ryoko Ness' fair is probably gonna changed, but developing the metagame is more important. If we keep making changes over and over without letting the game develop then we will never get anywhere.

Now get out of this topic, Ryoko; you're messing up my join date superiority.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

oh also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWCYXDC_WgY

 

[Deleted member]

Cape, Fludd and water gun also don't give back up-b and are good edgeguards. The only problem I have with psi magnet is that it should push people away before I get hit, not after lol.

Let's look at characters that are affected by it though....

Ness (in many different ways though)
Mario
Luigi
Ike (side b)
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Wario (if forced to recover with up-b)
Marth's (with bad spacing of up-b)
Yoshi (?????)
Diddy Kong (up-b)
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Pikachu (side-b)
Peach (misspaced up-b)
GaW (misspaced up-b)
Charizard (up-b)
Ganon
Falcon
Kirby (up-b)
DDD (up-b)

I believe that's everybody???

I know for a fact that you can use the wind to **** Ike's up-b as well.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ryoko Ness' fair is probably gonna changed, but developing the metagame is more important. If we keep making changes over and over without letting the game develop then we will never get anywhere.

Now get out of this topic, Ryoko; you're messing up my join date superiority.

That's what drew me in to target you specifically to begin with. If developing the metagame around a broken move or two is important(?), then that's a floodgate that you can't just close in any short amount of time. And *that* is stupid.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

When you let metagame develop you sometimes find that things you thought were broken are not.

 

[Ref]

Ness can double jump cancel z drop an item and levitate.

 

[Deleted member]

What was wrong with the August build of f-air?

 

[thesage]

Delorted: It ken combo'd everybody except Zelda and Falco, on whom it didn't combo at all (well it did on Falco at higher percents but you could probably have killed him by then anyways). I guess the wbr deemed it broken. Idk why it took them so long cuz I told them of it early in development of that fair. =/

Ryoko: yell at people somewhere else. Like at Snake mains and their grenades of "oh hi I can't combo you." Everybody here agrees Ness' fair is lol. When it should be changed should be argued in the WBR or a thread that's not this one. There are definitely other changes that should happen as well.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ryoko: yell at people somewhere else. Like at Snake mains and their grenades of "oh hi I can't combo you." Everybody here agrees Ness' fair is lol.

No, not everyone. Unless you keep Simna on ignore.

 

[Rykoshet]

You're free to combo snake after the first hit. He cant B move out of hit stun so unless your followup didnt realistically combo to begin with, it's not coming out to stop you. If you mean you cant start a combo, the character effectively zones and eliminates approach options with nades and they don't blow up on command so they dont go off unless someone attacks it, which is the whole point of using the nades to remove attack options. Character would be complete balls if all you had to keep track of is "stay out of up tilt range", especially with the single slowest jump in the game. Technically you can defend properly against every aerial snake has on reaction because of his terrible jump startup time, but keeping track of the first frame of a jump animation is unreasonable.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i just made a post on the last page about a possible change to ness' fair....and even more recently i said that ness fair will probably be changed.

I just think the right thing to do is wait before making changes.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it's fine that Ryoko is tearing people a new one in this thread. Perhaps people won't get power hungry next time.

 

[CountKaiser]

Ryoko, calm down already.

This issue isn't whether or not fair will be changed, we know that it will.

The issue is

A. Whether to change it or not

B. How to go about said change

Now there's my new fair that Shanus was messing with, and then there's Simna's idea which actually sounds interesting.

Either way, it's being changed, and discussion of it shouldn't be taking place here as of now.


Now then, on topic. Has anyone been able to DJC bair a shield and then grab the defender? The insane block advantage sweetspot bair has is pretty awesome and should allow for it.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

CK u mean for A "When it will be changed" right?

EDIT: Re: djc bair

I can see that working altho im not sure on what the frames say. I do know that you can djcff a bair on many opponents at 0-verylow percent to a grab(not on their shield)

 

[GHNeko]

Bair has insane shield advantage, IIRC.

 

[shanus]

I have made what I feel is a really solid version of fair. I need to test this more as I haven't gotten in substantial playtime, but I do dig the results so far.

New changes:
Fair:
Linking hits: SDI capacity to 1.1 from .8, X-offset shifted inwards 1 unit (set to 8.6 from 9.6 in both GFX hitbox)
Final hit: BKB to 70 from 65, KBG to 70 from 60, X-offset shifted inwards 1 unit (set to 8.6 from 9.6 in both GFX hitbox)

This makes fair still able to combo (but not retardedly), more susceptible to SDI, and slightly less disjointed. I need to fine tune it more, but this seems to be a solid start.

 

[CountKaiser]

I approve of this fair. :D

What about PK Flash? Will that be fixed as well?

 

[shanus]

This is what I'll aim for:


Fair remodeled as described above.
PKT1 endlag speedup removed.
PK Flash endlag sped up. (Not sure on the startup)


Note: This is just what I'm thinking now, it all needs a lot more testing

 

[thesage]

If the pkt1 endlag speedup is removed then it's a terrible move again unless you modify the projectiles properties. I do agree that it's lol right now. I can juggle Samus from nearly 0-death with it (then again you could in melee so...).

I don't think I'll ever use pk flash outside of edgeguarding so I don't really care about the endlag speedup...

@Ryko: When we meet up next time I'll explain what I meant. I kinda look at the game differently than you cuz you're a brawl player and I'm a melee player so it caused some misunderstanding lol. I really would like this thread to stay on topic.

 

[shanus]

PKT1 will not be a terrible move at all.

It will still serve as an awesome damage racker at the end of a juggle. It will still allow for edge harassment too. It just won't allow for stupidly repetitive and easy harassment.

 

[CountKaiser]

But I like using PKT to send the opponent my way when their off stage, then connect with a bair, a nair, or the ever so sexy bat of cracking skulls. The speedup completely removed may compromise this somewhat.

It'll still be good to end a juggle with, though.

 

[Alphatron]

I'd only care for PK Flash startup speedup if it were 2X size.

 

[Lil'E]

But I like using PKT to send the opponent my way when their off stage, then connect with a bair, a nair, or the ever so sexy bat of cracking skulls. The speedup completely removed may compromise this somewhat.

It'll still be good to end a juggle with, though.

That was one of the main reason the speed up was requested in the first place. The original version had so much endlag that you couldn't follow up with anything half the time.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Why do any of that when you can give them repeated PKT1s to keep them airborne?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

because he doesn't need infinite pk thunder 1. The lag was sped up FIVE TIMES. Isn't that enough for you?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

What if we didnt remove the pkt1 speedup and we just reduced it?

Also pkflash cooldown speedup is very insignificant without the startup speedup.....(and the without the extra size its only a tiny bit useful)

also Shanus can you send me your fair? And what did you think of my fair idea?

 

[shanus]

because he doesn't need infinite pk thunder 1. The lag was sped up FIVE TIMES. Isn't that enough for you?

I suggest you reread Ryoko's post because that went way over your head.

 

[thesage]

Endlag of pk flash is like 12 frames right now (when it actually explodes).

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm

Why not reduce the endlag of the PKT from times five to times 2 or times 1.5 or so.