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Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

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sunshade

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Yes.

Balance through abuse is not a valid game design path. MvC2 is a notoriously imbalanced game in which the majority of the cast isn't anywhere close to viable.
The majority of characters in **** near every fighting game ever are not viable. Balance is only to be viewed in the scope of the top tier. If there is a healthy balance between 5+ top tier characters then the game is balanced enough to be successful over long term play. You can have 10 non-viable characters or 100 non-viable characters but the game is going to be just as balanced when you look at what actually matters in a competitive environment.

Lets say brawl had been released without Ganon in the game. Would it be more balanced than our current version of brawl with Ganon in it? No, because Ganon does not affect the game at a competitive level.

Read the following article.

Sonic Hurricane said:
Derisive words like “unbalanced,” “overpowered,” and “broken” get thrown around so much these days, you’d think every fighting game was expected to have a 90% competitive roster ratio. It’s true that modern game developers can benefit from studying a long history of tournament-tested titles, but the fundamental problem remains the same: character diversity naturally fosters imbalance. There’s no escaping it.

How are designers supposed to tackle this issue? Every experienced player will tell you that concrete strategy is all about matchups. If you start with two characters, you’ll want to give them a complex array of options with the ultimate goal of staging dynamic battles while ensuring that the most skillful player wins consistently. Whenever you upgrade one move, you’ll have to match it with the appropriate adjustment on the opposite side.

When you introduce a third character, the number of matchups triples. Now when you institute an upgrade, you have to cautiously strengthen two potential rivals to that exact same degree, then compare them with each other to make sure their matchup doesn’t suffer. Every minor tweak can snowball into a series of adjustments echoing back and forth. We’re still talking about three characters here. Well, if you have a cast of 56 diverse characters to balance, you’re basically screwed. Nobody’s that smart.

Clearly, demanding 20+ evenly matched characters is an unrealistic expectation. What would be considered a reasonable number? Looking through the Classics, i’d say any “good” fighting game with a legitimate top tier of four or more characters is perfectly acceptable.

The real question is, at what point do tier rankings factor into the perceived value of a game? Certainly they don’t matter in the beginning, because early impressions almost always turn out laughably inaccurate. It takes everyone three to six months to grasp the game’s true nature. Is it offensive? Defensive? Structured? Chaotic? Technical? Intuitive? Tactical? Instinctive?

If we’re lucky enough to find a deep, rewarding game on our hands, the next step is running it through the tournament gauntlet to ensure it doesn’t degenerate into a one- or two-character affair. As long as its top tier holds steady at four or more characters and the game itself doesn’t break down into abusing one narrow tactic, it can survive indefinitely as a competitive mainstay. This is a proven fact, because numerous such games have thrived for nearly a decade in the tournament circuit, until a sequel or upgrade was released.

Even with four evenly matched fighters, we’re looking at ten possible matchups, including mirror matches. That’s plenty! Five viable characters give us fifteen potential matchups. When we’re talking about classic-caliber games, each of these matchups can stay interesting for years on end. How long have people been playing Ryu vs Guile in SF2: Hyper Fighting?

To be clear, it doesn’t matter how many squares there are on the character select screen. Who cares whether five useless portraits remain in the game or fifty? Percentage-based breakdowns are meaningless. Only two factors count when considering balance: whether there are four or more characters in top tier, and whether the matchups between them measure up to our high standards. When either of these criteria ceases to be true, that’s when we should stop playing the game.

Until then, there’s nothing to complain about. You simply can’t expect much more than this. Yes, you may have to switch characters to accomodate the realization that your original choice can’t compete against top tier. However, if you enjoy the core game and you have four diverse characters to choose from, just pick one and continue enjoying it.

Real examples of broken and overpowered characters are ST Akuma and CvS Nakoruru. They single-handedly shut down over 90% of their respective rosters and have no unfavorable matchups to speak of. There’s literally no reason not to pick them, which forces players to choose between banning them or retiring those games. That’s what unbalanced really means. Someone like SF4 Sagat is nowhere near this dominant. The term simply doesn’t fit.

Furthermore, convincing others to boycott powerful-but-not-overpowered characters is a disservice to your local community. It’s one thing to play obscure characters because you honestly feel they give you the best chance to win. However, strictly avoiding a strong character simply because he’s strong not only weakens your game, but also any friends who rely on you for competition. This is how Japan almost lost in ST at the first USA vs Japan invitational team tournament and how SoCal became a non-factor in CvS2.
Drastically increasing the number of infinite CGs and juggles (or increasing them at all) is *not* acceptable in any way, shape, or form.
Why? It raises the risk reward of play. If both players can infinite each other then the risk of a mistake is much larger and the reward for punishing or baiting mistakes is much higher. Look back at smash 64, every character has 0 deaths and juggles which lead to death at all percentages.

Similarly, high levels of knockback makes the game almost entirely about gimping and hyper-centralized on high base knockback moves.
Thats why we should cap the ratio change at .2.

These extremes are simply degenerate and have no potential value at all. They have no place in this discussion of x1.1 knockback.
Thats not true. Both extremes have potential value, and they do have place for discussion in this thread.
 

Flayl

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wow, hasn't this idea been suggested at least a thousand times before? and as soon as a GOOD player suggests it, people are all behind the idea, my goodness gracious
Yeah, people were suggesting 1.1x / Heavy gravity / lightning speed / etc. since the start of Brawl

"too late"
 

Smoom77

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its true what smoom said. That little added piece of knockback would change the IC entire CG metagame. They'd basically would have to re learn how to CG most of the cast


solo popo dthrow CG prolly would be nerfed bad too....

this is what i was talking about but the above is true also.

trying olimar vs ddd right now

i dont think olimar would be able to dthrow>usmash at low % i cant seem to get it to work
ohaimynameissmoom
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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So I tried this out today before my disk died on me again:
- Knockback is increased (duh). Peach actually has real kill moves now!
- Gimping is pretty nasty. Getting hit with a Turnip offstage can be lethal at lower percents than before
- Small strings and combos still work but only at very low percents (Peach's Uair string on Falco ends at about 50-60% rather than 70-80%+. Dair combos end much sooner and follow ups become very difficult as you go above the 30-40% region. MK's Uair sends people too far away to string at around 50-60%, they still work at extremely low percents)
- DeDeDe's infinite doesn't work on Mario. HOWEVER, his small step chaingrab still exists on DK
- Pikachu's CG on Fox ends at around 41%, I'm guessing its similar to the other characters he can CG
- Shiek's tilt lock on Fox still exists but I think you can escape it easier. You can DI behind her but she can turn around and reverse the lock
- MK's Tornado remains pretty much unchanged from what I saw

I tried a some matches out with this and there were some noticable changes if you looked close enough. I reccomend people try it out

Shuttle Loop is still nasty though
 

san.

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have you guys even tried out 1.1? so far I can tell that you haven't on your post=)
Based on the posts I have read, most likely not. It's not like it's 1.5, it's 1.1. You barely notice much of a difference in the long run. Meaning, the differences are there, but you'll be able to use your previous style of play effectively without having to deviate much at all.
 
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1.1 feels very very similar with slightly less lame. It doesn't rid the game of The Tornado Menace (although initial DI is much more effective, IE holding up when you're hit), but it reduces the effectiveness of some CGs and makes a lot of the cast more viable if they were stunted by infinites. It doesn't really do much else.

Then quit dancing around the issue yourself, and ban him at your events. Convince other TOs to do so as well.
Also, stop being afraid of butthurt MK mains.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Then quit dancing around the issue yourself, and ban him at your events. Convince other TOs to do so as well.
Better yet: ban him at WHOBO3. Screw what out of state people think: they don't like it they don't have to come. Though you had more out of state people when you first banned MK, so that probably won't be a problem. Screw the big names: they aren't running the tournament.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Adjusting the damage ratio is so bad and doesn't contribute much to the game.
Bad idea is bad.

You know what's more feasible?

Items!!

Seriously.
 

Tesh

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Adjusting the damage ratio is so bad and doesn't contribute much to the game.
Bad idea is bad.

You know what's more feasible?

Items!!

Seriously.
This man couldn't be more correct.
We should turn items on then adjust the damage ratio after that.
 

Ripple

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I like how people are complaining that some characters get better and some get worse. thats obvious! Our current 1.0 damage ratio HEAVILY favors and nerfs some characters and you aren't complaining.

its a different rule, of course its going to favor some characters and others not. just like a LGL
 

Thinkaman

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The majority of characters in **** near every fighting game ever are not viable. Balance is only to be viewed in the scope of the top tier. If there is a healthy balance between 5+ top tier characters then the game is balanced enough to be successful over long term play. You can have 10 non-viable characters or 100 non-viable characters but the game is going to be just as balanced when you look at what actually matters in a competitive environment.
Absolutely not, this is a huge misnomer.

This is because balance exists to foster diversity of play and support emotional investment in the game and its ideas, concepts, and identities.

If we ignore this, then only viable options matter and balance is totally meaningless as long as at least some very small core set of viable options exists; additional non-viable options do not matter in this view. If the game was being played only by AI, this would be correct.

However, that is not how people play games, nor how games are designed.

The vast majority of players do not play MK in Brawl, just as the majority of players do not play the top character in any fighting game (or multiplayer game period). This is because the experience of playing games is more than the lump sum of evaluative processes to optimize victory. There are very strong, very hard aesthetic, emotional, and psychological reasons that people gain satisfaction and enjoyment from playing the characters they do. The diversity and design of the roster is built around this.

Lets say brawl had been released without Ganon in the game. Would it be more balanced than our current version of brawl with Ganon in it? No, because Ganon does not affect the game at a competitive level.
Statistically in terms of fairness, yes. The average matchup ratio standard deviation drops from 0.589 to 0.518 if Ganon is removed. This is almost 7 times the improvement that would result from removing Meta Knight.

Obviously, removing Ganon could only hurt the game. Ganon has a very unique read-centric playstyle that is a great benefit to the game. However, realizing that helps one understand why balance is meaningful. Ganon matters--people play Ganon. Ganon, and all his unique good design (from Flame Choke to SH dairs), is part of the Brawl experience. Brawl is better off having Ganon's contribution to its design than not.

At the same time, Ganon's incompleteness as a competitive option hurts the game. Ganon isn't even *that* terrible by most fighting game (or any multiplayer game) standards, and yet he still seriously disadvantages those that play as him. For anyone who has ever enjoyed playing Ganon in Brawl, this makes their Brawl experience strictly worse than it could have been had Ganon been viable. Merely viable is still strictly worse than fully competitive.

To use a classic phrase to summarize, it's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all--but it's even better if we can just love without the loss part.

Sonic Hurricane said:
Derisive words like “unbalanced,” “overpowered,” and “broken” get thrown around so much these days, you’d think every fighting game was expected to have a 90% competitive roster ratio. It’s true that modern game developers can benefit from studying a long history of tournament-tested titles, but the fundamental problem remains the same: character diversity naturally fosters imbalance. There’s no escaping it.
A really important distinction has to be made here: "balance" refers to the unity of fairness and diversity. What this is highlighting is the struggle between the two--this is correct. The reason balance is "hard" is that its components are at odds with one another.

Saying diversity is going against balance in some way is foolish, as without diversity there is no balance.

His next few paragraphs are preaching to the Pope, so to speak.

Sonic Hurricane said:
Clearly, demanding 20+ evenly matched characters is an unrealistic expectation. What would be considered a reasonable number? Looking through the Classics, i’d say any “good” fighting game with a legitimate top tier of four or more characters is perfectly acceptable.
This I take issue with though. Several fighting games have impressively well balanced rosters. (Guilty Gear is the classic example; SF4 and Brawl are also very well balanced.)

With the most recent matchup numbers, GG XX:AC has 515 (97%) matchup-sides between a 4:6 and 6:4 ratio. (Pre-Super SF4 has 534 (92%), Brawl has 1276 (86%).) All these characters span a pretty diverse design space, even if they aren't going to extremes like Starcraft. That's a lot of well-balanced gameplay!

Sonic Hurricane said:
To be clear, it doesn’t matter how many squares there are on the character select screen.
This is where it breaks down: It matters to the people who play those characters. Their emotional enjoyment from the game and their self-identity when playing it is being sabotaged by this inferiority, the design effort and resources spent on them is being wasted. Balance matters, or more simply put, design matters.

You can't look at games, even competitive games, in a fully rational vacuum. That's just not how humanity operates or behaves.
 

Meru.

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@ Peach discussion: Having looked a little bit into this, I heavily disagree with Peach being worse. Her combos have barely changed anything at all, her Uair string still seems to be in and she doesnt lack any low-knockback moves anyway. Hitstun being slightly increased and turnips having a bigger reward now helps. Her pressure game is also still great, regardless of combos. Peach racks up damage just as well.

And not only that, but she kills much earlier and way more reliable now. I'd gladly trade that for getting killed a bit earlier.

So yeah, her pros definitely outweigh her cons. Very few characters are nerfed anyway.


:052:
 
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I have to agree with Thinkaman here; a competitive scene can't even exist without people to play the game, and people are less inclined to play a game when they are restricted to 5 characters. In Brawl, people have the opportunity to play a wide variety of characters ranging from great to basically awful, and competitively-minded players still choose terrible characters because they enjoy the way they play among other things. Who does Vermanubis play Ganon? Why does Xyro play Samus? These players aren't "scrubs;" I know for a fact Dark.pch wouldn't play Brawl if Peach wasn't in it. We have the option to play these less-good characters, but what if the option wasn't there at all?

Bad characters do matter insomuch as the players that play this game matter (and they do, for about a dozen social and personal/emotional reasons). If there is a way to make them matter more, I'm open to exploring it.
 

SuSa

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@ Peach discussion: Having looked a little bit into this, I heavily disagree with Peach being worse. Her combos have barely changed anything at all, her Uair string still seems to be in and she doesnt lack any low-knockback moves anyway. Hitstun being slightly increased and turnips having a bigger reward now helps. Her pressure game is also still great, regardless of combos. Peach racks up damage just as well.

And not only that, but she kills much earlier and way more reliable now. I'd gladly trade that for getting killed a bit earlier.

So yeah, her pros definitely outweigh her cons. Very few characters are nerfed anyway.


:052:
Test how much sooner she dies to Snake compared to how sooner she kills Snake.
:093:
I have to agree with Thinkaman here; a competitive scene can't even exist without people to play the game, and people are less inclined to play a game when they are restricted to 5 characters. In Brawl, people have the opportunity to play a wide variety of characters ranging from great to basically awful, and competitively-minded players still choose terrible characters because they enjoy the way they play among other things. Who does Vermanubis play Ganon? Why does Xyro play Samus? These players aren't "scrubs;" I know for a fact Dark.pch wouldn't play Brawl if Peach wasn't in it. We have the option to play these less-good characters, but what if the option wasn't there at all?

Bad characters do matter. If there is a way to make them matter more, I'm open to exploring it.
Ban he-who-must-not-be-named

It's a far better option than completely throwing the game into a blender and losing all of our work and not just our work towards one matchup/character.
 
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SuSa, you are dramatically overestimating the effect a 1.1 damage ratio would have on the game. Most of the game's strategies would remain in-tact. There would be slightly more hitstun, attacks would launch further, characters would die earlier and kill earlier (the gap between hard-hitters and softer hitters would move closer together). "Throwing it in a blender" is a stretch.
 

Pierce7d

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So far, I've seen some testing, a lot of theory-craft (necessary), a lot of lump assumptions (sometimes good, sometimes not) and links to previous threads that are FAR from credible, and typically degenerate.

I see very little in the way of stopping us from giving this a legitimate try, except that people are scared.

I'm HIGHLY interested to know how much hitstun is gained from changing the ratio. If it's at all significant, then this could mean a developing combo game, instead of an entirely nerfed one.

Basically, I'm open to TESTING.
 

Ripple

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I'd main sheik if we change to 1.1.

dacus all day
 
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So far, I've seen some testing, a lot of theory-craft (necessary), a lot of lump assumptions (sometimes good, sometimes not) and links to previous threads that are FAR from credible, and typically degenerate.

I see very little in the way of stopping us from giving this a legitimate try, except that people are scared.

I'm HIGHLY interested to know how much hitstun is gained from changing the ratio. If it's at all significant, then this could mean a developing combo game, instead of an entirely nerfed one.

Basically, I'm open to TESTING.
Amen to this. Totally up for a side-event around here, Pierce... hint.
 

Renegade TX2000

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Based on the posts I have read, most likely not. It's not like it's 1.5, it's 1.1. You barely notice much of a difference in the long run. Meaning, the differences are there, but you'll be able to use your previous style of play effectively without having to deviate much at all.

what san said, it won't take years of "(WORK)" to learn 1.1 a better version
 

Thinkaman

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I have to agree with Thinkaman here; a competitive scene can't even exist without people to play the game, and people are less inclined to play a game when they are restricted to 5 characters. In Brawl, people have the opportunity to play a wide variety of characters ranging from great to basically awful, and competitively-minded players still choose terrible characters because they enjoy the way they play among other things. Who does Vermanubis play Ganon? Why does Xyro play Samus? These players aren't "scrubs;" I know for a fact Dark.pch wouldn't play Brawl if Peach wasn't in it. We have the option to play these less-good characters, but what if the option wasn't there at all?

Bad characters do matter insomuch as the players that play this game matter (and they do, for about a dozen social and personal/emotional reasons). If there is a way to make them matter more, I'm open to exploring it.
I think you brought up a point better than I did: it's not that people who play characters other than top tiers are bad or stupid and we are merely trying to be nice to bad and stupid people. The ultimate point of the game is to provide enjoyment (through competition), and because diverse game elements like characters in a fighting game are diverse in design, people can find their favorite personal types of enjoyment in different places.

Based on their average matchup numbers, SF2: ST Zangief, Blanka, Cammy, and T.Hawk would be considered bottom tier in Brawl. (Fei-Long might too, he's statistically borderline.) SF2:ST's functionality of being able to properly determine a winner would not be seriously impaired if all of these characters were removed.

However, that would make for a far worse game.

Note that I'm not making a claim as to any particular design path being superior: MvC2 is a great game in spite of "poor balance"--it has so much gameplay to it, so much to experience, that it's more than acceptable if many parts of sub-par. Similarly, Starcraft is a great game in spite of only having 3 races--they took those 3 and cranked the diversity to "11" and fine-tuned the balance to an art. This is a flawed example because they aren't really opposites: MvC2 has high diversity but low fairness, while SC/SC2 has high both. The point though, is that both design paths led to a great game that players could enjoy.
 

Kitamerby

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Increasing the damage ratio is just a fancy way of saying "**** Lucario" imo.

Other than that, I'm up for anything to revitalize interest in the game at this point. Could be worth testing.
 

Juushichi

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Man, I was trying out Pika in 1.1 damage ratio and **** man, I think upair is ****ing ******. First it was against bowser, so I was like: lol bowser, but then I was taking MK across the stage with it to nair and I **** myself.

Samus isn't that bad.
 

SuSa

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So far, I've seen some testing, a lot of theory-craft (necessary), a lot of lump assumptions (sometimes good, sometimes not) and links to previous threads that are FAR from credible, and typically degenerate.

I see very little in the way of stopping us from giving this a legitimate try, except that people are scared.

I'm HIGHLY interested to know how much hitstun is gained from changing the ratio. If it's at all significant, then this could mean a developing combo game, instead of an entirely nerfed one.

Basically, I'm open to TESTING.
Open to testing this, but not removing Meta Knight.

Because removing every characters most detrimental matchup is a far worse option than:

Removing all chaingrabs [thus changing any matchup that relies on such to win]

Removing the few true combos this game has. [The game is officially a game of cat and mouse. I'll sit there and spam Snake's Utilt all day now. I can't follow up with anything, so why not?]

Nerfing multi-hit moves (See: MK's tornado as the example)

Buffing all projectiles with any significant knockback. Sorry, I meant I'll be spamming grenades now, and killing with utilt.
 

Renegade TX2000

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then do that susa and see how long you will last vs someone that knows what they are doing such as me. Throwing down 50$ you won't beat me by just doing that, and it's what your implying use snake and spam up tilt and grenades.
 

SuSa

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It's how Snake already plays, it's just made better and harder to punish due to increased knockback. Hell, how do you think I ever held my own in SoCal? hahaha

You first take away the CG's on him (one of the main things going against him), and you make him harder to juggle (another main thing going against him). You then buff his entire moveset.

On second thought...... I 100% support this idea. Let's work on making this **** standard. So we can start discussing on why Snake should be banned.

I can't even think of a reason that truly hurts Snake, and Snake only, in this new system. Everyones more likely to be gimped now - and it's not like Snake's recovery wasn't already bad.

:093:
 

Dark 3nergy

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then do that susa and see how long you will last vs someone that knows what they are doing such as me. Throwing down 50$ you won't beat me by just doing that, and it's what your implying use snake and spam up tilt and grenades.
will side bet on this
 

Renegade TX2000

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I can see what your saying but you haven't realized that snake does indeed get gimped harder now moves that couldn't knock him out of his cypher 1.0 now alot of moves that couldn't can in 1.1 you just have to see yourself and now snake can be gimped hard for it
 

SuSa

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I can see what your saying but you haven't realized that snake does indeed get gimped harder now moves that couldn't knock him out of his cypher 1.0 now alot of moves that couldn't can in 1.1 you just have to see yourself and now snake can be gimped hard for it
Are you sure? I was pretty **** sure cypher armour was only based off of damage (no move under 7% knocks him out of it) and that this wasn't based on knockback alone.

If so, this is actually an improvement of knowledge for us Snake Mains if it's actually determined by the base knockback of a move.

:093:
 

SaveMeJebus

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Changing the damage ratio to 1.1 also changes the length of character's trip animations when they are hit by Diddy's bananas. Though I am not against changing the damage ratio, I feel that it changes the game too much without gaining any real benefits(except for a few characters).
 

Thinkaman

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Are you sure? I was pretty **** sure cypher armour was only based off of damage (no move under 7% knocks him out of it) and that this wasn't based on knockback alone.
This is correct, Snake's Cipher is 7% Heavy Armor. Cipher is affected by this, beyond the fact that it's easier to get Snake off-stage at low %s and he will have to use it more.
 
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It's how Snake already plays, it's just made better and harder to punish due to increased knockback. Hell, how do you think I ever held my own in SoCal? hahaha

You first take away the CG's on him (one of the main things going against him), and you make him harder to juggle (another main thing going against him). You then buff his entire moveset.

On second thought...... I 100% support this idea. Let's work on making this **** standard. So we can start discussing on why Snake should be banned.

I can't even think of a reason that truly hurts Snake, and Snake only, in this new system. Everyones more likely to be gimped now - and it's not like Snake's recovery wasn't already bad.

:093:
Err... LOL? Serious theorycrafting about a very different metagame. Whee. Sounds good. And snake is not 2nd-best in the game now.
 

Ripple

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I have been testring this out as well today. I'd just like to say that THROWS that can generally kill receive a MASSIVE boost. (not that I'm against that either)

I've been play testing lucas with 1.1 and his d-throw kills about 20% earlier on some characters. on DK it used to kill around 170% now its kills around 155%

this is also true in reverse. DK's b throw receives a bigger a boost than his other moves. including d smash. not that its better by any means, just saying throws are boosted more than anything else.


Edit: also DDD CAN NOT INFINTE DK. its just like with the other characters as right now, he gets to regrab 5 times and then he must pummel DK
 
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