Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Ussi]

Maybe a different charactor will rise up to go close to even with MK

 

[z00ted]

and this whole idea is pointless because you know people aren't going to want to relearn the whole **** game after 2 years, we can't even ban meta knight, this has zero possibility of happening.

Exactly, and if we DO use it (which I'm leaning towards) we would have to ban Metaknight either way.

Basically what I'm getting at is.

If we use this, it would either have to be done when counterpicking which sunshade already suggested, or we ban Metaknight while still keeping the ratio and Brawl could be a REALLY good game.

That's wayyy too far fetched though, it will never happen.

Maybe a different charactor will rise up to go close to even with MK

Marth comes to mind.
I just want further testing.

Someone should start using this in tournaments.

 

[demonictoonlink]

What??!! Meta Knight isn't even the problem being addressed here. Banning him doesn't take away DDD infiniting Mario >__>

 

[z00ted]

Not only am I looking at DDD infiniting Mario I'm looking at how this would change the game as a whole.

 

[etecoon]

we would have to ban Metaknight either way.

except it's never going to happen, get over : )

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Don't take Susa seriously, all he does is says he's leaving Smashboards and then comes back again without doing anything important. This looks kinda good I don't know the possibilities though

Hes pretty bad with snake jokes too

Not only am I looking at DDD infiniting Mario I'm looking at how this would change the game as a whole.

im gonna play with this right now brb

i dont see much of a differance in 1.1. I can still chain grab mario/pit/diddy kong same as 1.0. If anything imo, it'd make the marth MU prolly harder. Yup, at 1.1 i cannot CG marth. Just as i thought. 1.1 would hurt DDD more if this was allowed.

Ok so i turned down the damage ratio to 0.5 right? I can now small step infinite snake. I can now CG kirby similar to marth. I can now CG MK too. The KB at 0.5 is pretty ridiculous i BARELY go anywhere at all after 30% its like im getting juggled at 0% just to give you an idea of how the ratios differ.

 

[z00ted]

Ike's jab anyone?

 

[salaboB]

Not only am I looking at DDD infiniting Mario I'm looking at how this would change the game as a whole.

But you're assuming MK will be unbeatable at 1.1, which is pretty much entirely unproven.

Especially given that some of his worse MUs are also likely to be strengthened by it.

 

[Ussi]

...


How good will shuttle loop and MK's edgeguarding be now at 1.1?

 

[Spelt]

i'd guess 1.1x better.

 

[z00ted]

But you're assuming MK will be unbeatable at 1.1, which is pretty much entirely unproven.

Especially given that some of his worse MUs are also likely to be strengthened by it.

I'm not assuming he is unbeatable I'm just stating that he will be much harder.

Name a worse MU that will be strengthened by it. (excluding Marth)

 

[Ussi]

i'd guess 1.1x better.

First thing i would want to test. It could just be cause everything dies early so gimps happen earlier too

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I imagine this would completely ruin competitive Ivysaur, as multi-hit moves and small strings are really all she has.

Squirtle probably can't combo as well, and Charizard is bad enough as it is without Flamethrower and Rock Smash becoming less viable.

 

[z00ted]

I don't think its a good idea.

List of Characters That Are Extremely Nerfed (So far)
-Falco
-DDD
-Pikachu
-Peach
-Pokemon Trainer

List of Characters Buffed (So far)
-Metaknight
-Snake
-Marth
-Donkey Kong

this isn't confirmed it's just my speculation, testing should be able to straighten things up.

 

[Ussi]

O.o is rock smash DIable out of?

Remember kills will happen earlier and combos shouldnt be lost just shorter/different cause you need to build up less damage

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't think its a good idea.

List of Characters That Are Extremely Nerfed (So far)
-Falco
-DDD
-Pikachu
-Peach
-Pokemon Trainer

List of Characters Buffed (So far)
-Metaknight
-Snake
-Marth
-Donkey Kong
-Ike

Add'd to list

 

[Renegade TX2000]

alot of you guys are jumping the gun, just go and test it out.

 

[z00ted]

I'm not shooting anything down, I'm just stating what I believe would happen to the game.

I'm all for testing it out or whatever it's just that this would totally switch Brawl around, it might be too late for our metagame.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

O.o is rock smash DIable out of?

The shards are, and if the knockback is greater, it might prevent people from getting hit by the shards after the headbutt (as in, ridiculous 45%-in-a-single-move stuff).

That being said, I'm interested in seeing how this would really affect the game. I don't mind giving a little for a lot in the end.

 

[MBlaze]

I don't think its a good idea.

.... Stop switchin back and fourth yo...

 

[Smoom77]

Ice Climbers are nerfed because we won't be able to Dthrow Cg as long.

 

[z00ted]

Same, I don't mind giving up Peach to help the game as whole. In fact this list SHOULD help the game as a whole.

Metaknight is just going to **** everyone up.

(like he hasn't been already)

.... Stop switchin back and fourth yo...

haha I sorta am, but we are discovering more things about it then we were in the first place.

Understand what I'm getting at?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i mean man what you dont want is 0.5 i mean jesus christ, small step CGing snake on DDD thats pretty loving broken. Basically 1.1 would just add alittle more knock back rendering some chaingrabs to stop earlier, and some guaranteed combo strings would probably not work either.

im gonna try falco one sec


actually this might help DDD for his bad MUs but prolly not MK.


woooow i cant CG DDD are you serious? After 17% DDD flies back too far...the falco would have to frame perfect his CG..or something if i try for a 4th grab he falls on his face.


trying pikachu

looks like pikachu has to either make his really tight or the CG pretty much stops at 34%

 

[MBlaze]

Same, I don't mind giving up Peach to help the game as whole. In fact this list SHOULD help the game as a whole.

Metaknight is just going to **** everyone up.

(like he hasn't been already)



haha I sorta am, but we are discovering more things about it then we were in the first place.

Understand what I'm getting at?

Yeah I guess I feel you.

My only complaints about this is that Fox's U smash and Snake's Up tilt.. Oh God...

 

[z00ted]

Haha see?
I never thought about that before: like I said this could REALLY change the game.

Oh god yes.
Metaknight's only counter may be Fox.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

First off, I want to say that I'm typically for alternate rulesets, such as ISP. However, in this case, I don't really support a sweeping change towards 1.1 UNLESS it improves matchup balance in Brawl. The reason being, it ruins a lot of hard work put into all the work done by the community; Things such as Brawl guides, gameplay videos, and matchup knowledge are really shafted. More than just this, it's hard to test the effects, as you can't really use training mode since it won't have the alternate damage ratio turned on. All the frame data threads that include BKB/KBG/etc will have to be edited to include the new values, which aren't readily available in programs such as PSA/OSA2. Perhaps some stages will become banned/legalized because of this. Not to mention, a lot of players who are satisfied with the Brawl scene will be resistant to such a change. It's a lot of work for something that may or may not "fix" Brawl.

Now, I do think this is worth testing. If you want to see if Brawl is more fun/competitive with this change, take it to the smashfests you attend. It's better than a lot of the theorycrafting going on this thread how characters are nerfed/buffed.

I'm not against this if it turns out to be a more competitive way to play the game, I just wanna give a heads up to how much will have to be scrapped/changed.


Sunshade's idea to use this as a tool to enrich our counterpick system sounds very interesting, I want to add. That seems much easier to implement, and less game changing, while adding more depth. I wanna try that out!

 

[z00ted]

Thank you Mr. Escalator for summing up exactly how I feel.

 

[Ussi]

what is exactly makes MK better in 1.1? Shuttle loop may be stronger but so is everything else. Tornado will be easier to get out which will hurt

 

[•Col•]

Ice Climbers are nerfed because we won't be able to Dthrow Cg as long.

Err.... I can usually tell, but I just have to make sure......... Sarcasm? o_O

 

[TheReflexWonder]

U-Air probably doesn't juggle so well with Meta Knight in 1.1.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

its true what smoom said. That little added piece of knockback would change the IC entire CG metagame. They'd basically would have to re learn how to CG most of the cast

solo popo dthrow CG prolly would be nerfed bad too....


trying olimar vs ddd right now

i dont think olimar would be able to dthrow>usmash at low % i cant seem to get it to work

 

[Chuee]

Haha see?
I never thought about that before: like I said this could REALLY change the game.

Oh god yes.
Metaknight's only counter may be Fox.

and possibly snake.
Oh, and I killed a CPU MK with Fox's usmash at 69% in DR 1.1.
****
EDIT: Removal of Falco and Pikas CG on MK helps him a lot.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No complaints about Ike? His Utilt kills either 1% sooner or 3% later than Snake's (always get the tilts mixed up), and it's now a true combo out of Jab. Fair/Bair/Uair all hit like a Semi with a nitrous injector, aether is very usable with 1.1, ect.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

im gonna try pikachu vs falco i wanna see what that CG will be like

41% with no sdi looks like..prolly wont work on falco anymore

trying fox

41% again...looks more guaranteed from what im seeing from the knock back but after 41% too much KB

 

[Life]

No complaints about Ike? His Utilt kills either 1% sooner or 3% later than Snake's (always get the tilts mixed up), and it's now a true combo out of Jab. Fair/Bair/Uair all hit like a Semi with a nitrous injector, aether is very usable with 1.1, ect.

Can't be worse than MK is now IMO.

 

[phi1ny3]

hmmm, wonder how Lucario will fare, probably pretty nerfed overall since his low % game would be weakened (I'd have to test more), and he'd be able to get killed earlier in general, so I'm not a fan of this frankly lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

I had a long discussion with Ren about this last night, and I thought I'd post my thoughts here.

Summary in advance: Don't get your hopes up. A massive change like this is bound to have lots of good effects and bad effects alike, so it's easy to get caught up in looking at only the good half if you are optimistic and the bad half if you are pessimistic. If you want to pursue this, try to be fully objective.

Also, keep in mind that increase knockback 10% does not also increase gravity or horizontal deceleration. +10% knockback means increasing total distance sent by 20%. Be aware of this.

Now, there are two separate issues here: gameplay style and balance impact. It's very important to consider them seperately.

This will make the game less about combos, linking, and juggling and more about the other aspects such as approach. Some people may like this, some people may not. Brawl is known for having a relatively small emphasis on combos as it is; understand that you are further decreasign the reward for approaching in most matchups. Matches would generally be a little shorter, but not much; most characters will rack damage slower, be more scared to approach, and kill earlier.

So how does this affect the usefulness of moves?

First there's something everyone needs to be clear about: 10% extra knockback affects everyone's normal kill potential equally. MK kills 10% sooner, Ganon kills 10% soon. Jigglypuff dies 10% sooner, Snake dies 10% sooner. This aspect does not affect any character differently; if you want to discuss this further please, please, please don't waste time saying this is a good idea because you can kill Snake sooner or a bad idea because Snake can kill sooner. Don't try claiming that this helps character X more than character Y because X struggled to get kills, or that it helps Y more because Y now kills even sooner. 10% is 10%, for all characters.

So direct kill moves are the same, but juggling is worse. Any move that in any way combos is now liable to hit the enemy too far away to followup. For example MK uair, d-tilt, and tornado will be much worse.

On the other hand, gimping moves with high base knockback will be disproportionately much better. For example MK dair, nair, and shuttle loop will be much better.

All other general moves are very slightly relatively better, due to doing the same level of damage in spite of lower kill %s. This includes projectiles.

There are 4 main sources of matchup imbalance in Brawl:

1. Planking
2. Approach Disparity
3. Recovery/Gimping Disparity
4. Infinites (and such)

Note that Brawl is actually pretty well balanced outside these issues, and that these issues are somewhat specific to 1v1 items-off. (Which isn't to say that FFAs and items-on don't have their own unique balance problems, but I digress.) How does extra knockback affect these aspects?

Planking is totally unchanged. The punishment for actually trying to approach planking is very slightly higher, but it doesn't matter much.

Approach disparity is slightly worse, because nothing is different but the game now emphasizes approach even more. This threatens a little bit of polarization.

Recovery disparity is significantly worse because gimping is relatively much stronger. This polarizes a lot of matchups in the game further.

Infinties and chaingrabs are significantly improved. Most are removed completely, almost none are added. (Maybe just some new jab locks?) Grab release infinties and footstool exploit infinites are unchanged, as are the Ice Climbers.

So how will this affect the cast? Understand that this is a very complex change on a very large and complicated system, so any speculation may turn out to be wrong.

Mario-Significantly worse. Gimping is even more of a problem, and he loses a lot of juggle potential that made him viable.
Luigi-Significantly more polarized. His jab-up-b can be done more easily in more matchups lettign him dominate some characters, but his fundamental approach problems show up even more.
Peach-Not sure. Apparently dair still links, so Peach doesn't ultimately change much.
Bowser-Significantly more polarized. He gets juggled a lot less, but gimped a lot more. His own moveset is not affected much either way, slightly in his favor.
DK-See Bowser, same case.
Diddy-Hard to say, but probably worse. Bananas having more knockback can only hurt him.
Yoshi-Doesn't care much. Slightly in his favor.
Wario-Depends on how much easier it is to escape dair. Probably not in his favor, especially against the top tiers.
Link-Significantly worse. Gimping is even more of a problem.
Zelda-Significantly worse. Gimping is even more of a problem, easeir to escape her smashes.
Sheik-Waaaaaay worse. Her juggle game is annihilated, and she gets gimped more. Urg.
Ganondorf-Significantly worse. Although he enjoys not getting juggled as much, gimping and approach issues are more of a problem. At least Flame Choke works the same.
Toon Link-Mostly unchanged, but his janky d-smash is probably super broken in a lot more cases.
Samus-Significantly more polarized. Defensive planking projectile spamming Samus is better, offensive grinding-your-face-off-with-uairs Samus is much worse. Probably better overall.
ZSS-Eh, hard to say. Probably better, unless down-smash no longer combos well on some characters. Increased knockback on fully charged paralyzer can be glitchy, FYI.
Pit-See Samus.
ICs- More polarized. Nana gets gimped a little easier, but they still have their infinite.
ROB- A little better. Less juggle problems helps him more than hurts.
Kirby- Significantly worse, due to CGs being gone.
MK- Significantly more polarized. Waaaay better at gimping, worse at racking damage. Honestly, probably slightly better overall. Plus, he can still plank!
DDD- Significantly worse. Does he still have a cg on Marth?
Olimar- Significantly worse. Loses d-throw stuff on most characters, and gets gimped more easily.
Fox-Significantly more polarized. No more u-tilt juggling. No more crappy matchups with infinites. I'm not sure how this would ultimately affect dair. Would it stun better, or be easier to escape? Probably both, making it better against bad players and worse against good players. He can gimp some low tiers easily with shine now, but his approach problems are worse.
Falco-Significantly worse. No cg and nothing to make up for it, and more easily gimped. Falco's run-away-and-spam-lasers strategy is better though!
Wolf-Significantly more polarized. Easier to gimp, harder to juggle; Wolf is really sensitive to both, so his matchups will change a lot both good and bad.
Falcon-Waaaaay worse. His mediocre ability to link moves at mid %s was the only thing he had going for him, and now it's gone. He also loses his f-throw psuedo-cg and d-throw/u-throw chases. GG Falcon.
Pikachu-Waaaaay worse. No more cgs, throws now have no followups, d-smash is now super garbage tier, multi-hit aerials are worse.
PT-Waaaaay worse. All three are more easily gimped and just as easily stalled. Squirtle loses his entire followup game. Bullet Seed connects a lot worse.
Lucario-Waaaaaay worse. One word: Aura.
Jigglypuff-Significantly better. Stale moves is less of an issue, which benefits Jiggs more than anyone. Easier gimping and more off-stage combat is great for her, but doesn't address her approach problems at all in her worse matchups.
Marth-Waaaaay better. Marth basically only benefits from this change, maybe his throws link worse and dancing blade isn't as spammable.
Ike-Slightly worse. More gimpable, just a bad at approaching, and has worse jabs. He likes not being juggled as much though, and his moveset is otherwise marginally better.
Ness-Mostly the same, unless fair doesn't connect as well or something. Grab releases still suck.
Lucas-See Ness, except with a nair that is probably much worse.
G&W-Significantly better. Like Marth, except turtle and fishbowl might be worse affected than any of Marth's moveset.
Snake-Significantly more polarized. See Wolf. Probably slightly better?
Sonic-...I honestly have no idea.

So a lot of bad characters are better, and a lot are worse. A lot of good characters are worse, and a lot are better. Overall, looking at the entire roster, I see a lot of increased polarization and can't help but conclude this would have a negative impact on balance. MK suffers in a few matchups against some other high tiers and several awful matchups are no logner plagued with infinites, both of which would strongly appeal to certain people; however, overall balance (including Meta Knight's matchups) is going to be worse. That doesn't mean this is overall a bad idea to investigate, but doing it in the name of balance is probably really misguided.

Please post any updated thoughts if you play around with this and get some experience further.

do not alter the game further. ban mk and the game will more enjoyable

I'm not sure what I can say to make this quote more funny.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

do not alter the game further. ban mk and the game will more enjoyable

i cant wait till you have babies, you must dress them up as sammy for halloween

@thinkaman, DDD cant CG marth at 1.1 i just tired it. However, all his other CGs will still work but will prolly be frame perfect for TL/Peach/Diddy Kong/IC

the plus side to 1.1 is that DDDs worser match ups become easier as far as him getting CGed, for MK tho idk would prolly make di'ing out of combos easier, what about tornado?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike-Slightly worse. More gimpable, just a bad at approaching, and has worse jabs. He likes not being juggled as much though, and his moveset is otherwise marginally better.

Ike is slightly better as his Jab 1 gains more hit stun, and thus more true combos/near true combos. I'll take the increase of gimps for more true combos into kill moves, and an even more feared aerial game. Heck, just the full jab combo would become a very usable kill move, instead of a rare occurrence.

 

[~Firefly~]

Wouldn't grab release CGs and infinites be completely unaffected by this? So some CGs, like D3's and Falco's would get nerfed, while others like Yoshi's grab release CG/infinite on Wario and the ground release infinites on the PK brothers would still be exactly the same as before? I don't know exactly how damage ratio affects grab releases, but I wouldn't expect 1.1 or any other setting to change those at all. Assuming that's true, it seems a little unfair to me...

Edit: Ninja'd by Thinkaman. Yoshi probably wouldn't mind being one of the only CGers left, but it could ruin him in match-ups where he doesn't have the CG and relies heavily on his attack strings/juggling abilities to do well (Snake comes to mind).