Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[Renegade TX2000]

So, I was fumbling around in the vs. mode and came upon the ratio change. I've tested out a lot of what could change about the ratio at 1.0 -- what we are all used to and the new 1.1 ratio. It seems like it gets rid of 90% of the stuff that people complain and whine about without hacking the game. I think it would be best to run the ratio to 1.1; it adds to more technical skill, MK can't tornado spam for free like he used to be able to do, and characters like Pikachu and Falco can't chain grab forever now.

E.G. DDD can't infinite Mario if the ratio is at 1.1.

What I'm trying to say is that I think you push a majority of the character MU ratios that were in disadvantage more toward even if you change it to 1.1, rather than keeping it at 1.0. Moves that were multi-hit can be DI'd out of a lot easier. MK's tornado, Snake's Ftilt, Marth's Dancing Blade, etc. are all easier to avoid the last hit.

I was using 1.1 MK and I tornado'd a level 9 Snake with the weak version of tornado and got Baired for it. Too good. For anyone trying to argue that 1.1 isn't the regular addition to Brawl play, the regular addition to Brawl play to what we changed was time -- 2-3 minute timer with 1.0, no handicap, and all stages on. We as a community changed that to 3 stock, 8 minute timer, and Friendly Fire on.

So what I'm trying to say is that we should try and make 1.1 the new meta game. It makes MK more punishable and it would make us want to re-watch "FOW vs SK92." =D

Before any further comments are made, just try the 1.1 ratio gameplay for yourself and play any character you make reference to on this forum.


Edit:

The more I read this the more I find errors in my own typing so just bare with me!!

 

[SuSa]

1 word:

NO

Spoiler

I'll let the others rip you apart as to why this is a horrible idea and will not be considered

 

[Pierce7d]

At first glance, this doesn't appear to be a bad idea. I'm interested to know why you think it might be Susa, as I've done little research of my own. Certainly it would change the game we currently play, but that does not instantly rule out that the game might be improved in the opinion of many.

 

[z00ted]

I actually think it's a somewhat decent idea also, but similar to Pierce7d I have no knowledge of what it can do to the game's mechanics.

 

[SuSa]

At first glance, this doesn't appear to be a bad idea. I'm interested to know why you think it might be Susa, as I've done little research of my own. Certainly it would change the game we currently play, but that does not instantly rule out that the game might be improved in the opinion of many.

Do you know how many times this very idea has been presented to the BBR and players? Do you have any idea how much this actually effects the metagame?

I could go dig up all of the arguments against it.

Spoiler

This isn't to say I don't support the idea myself.... ps: Snake kills faster, is harder to combo, and is overall made more epic.

 

[Exdeath]

Do you know how many times this very idea has been presented to the BBR and players? Do you have any idea how much this actually effects the metagame?

I could go dig up all of the arguments against it.

Spoiler

This isn't to say I don't support the idea myself.... ps: Snake kills faster, is harder to combo, and is overall made more epic.

Then post the arguments.

 

[clowsui]

OH NO THINGS CHANGE OUR METAGAME WHAT SHALL WE DO?

give a substantive argument -_-

 

[z00ted]

Do you know how many times this very idea has been presented to the BBR and players? Do you have any idea how much this actually effects the metagame?

I could go dig up all of the arguments against it.

Spoiler

This isn't to say I don't support the idea myself.... ps: Snake kills faster, is harder to combo, and is overall made more epic.

it's a .1 ratio, if Snake is buffed a bit, but we can take out multiple infinites in the game, why wouldn't we?

If that's the only argument you have, it's pretty weak.
Keep in mind Snake also DIES faster.

 

[Allied]

I would actually like to see counterarguements, please present them >_<


*subscribes*

 

[Calebyte]

I think this is worth looking into. More research should be done for sure, but I'm intrigued.

 

[z00ted]

I'm sure it's probably been brought up before, and shot down.

I must admit I am interested in the reasoning of why this wouldn't work.

 

[Allied]

I'm sure it's probably been brought up before, and shot down.

I must admit I am interested in the reasoning of why this wouldn't work.

This x100000

 

[John12346]

I suggested this veeery long time ago on AiB, but I got shot down in 2 seconds.

Maybe there'll be more analyzing over here

 

[Zankoku]

I was somewhat amused at Sheik's chain being that much more **** in 1.1 damage ratio. I still disagree with it, though.

 

[AllyKnight]

Don't take Susa seriously, all he does is says he's leaving Smashboards and then comes back again without doing anything important. This looks kinda good I don't know the possibilities though

 

[Nilik]

I personally think this is a great idea, Cause i just recently played renegade with the damage ratio being 1.1 and it was actually a lot better :/

 

[Pierce7d]

So far, all I'm seeing is a lot of people like me, who may be a tad bit skeptical, but overall curious.

I mean, Sakurai basically put a legitimate toggle in the game that enables us to disable frowned upon freebie tactics from what Ren is describing. While I can say that 1.1 will harm the delicate follow-up game Brawl already has, it might be worth it, and definitely needs further investigating. I see good reasons for it. Where is the argument against it?

 

[sunshade]

I personally would like a counterpick option that lets you select the damage ratio. The rule would go as follows "The losing player of a match may alter the damage ratio of the next match but the opponent gains 1 additional stage ban per .1 change in the damage ratio".

Lets say we had Falco vs Metaknight

Metaknight wins game 1 and bans jungle japes.
Falco chooses to drop the damage ratio by .1 (he now can chaingrab metaknight an additional 2 times last I checked)
Metaknight now has gains an additional ban and uses it on final destination
Falco picks whatever his next best stage is

Another example would be Mario vs king Dedede

King Dedede wins Round 1 and bans [mario's best stage]
Mario raises the damage ratio by .1
King Dedede bans [mario's second best stage]
Mario picks [his third best stage]

(I dont know anything about mario if it is not apparent)

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, honestly, SamuraiPanda suggested this very idea back in the summer of 2009. I jokingly more or less shut it down when I managed to easily rack up 150% damage with a single use of Sheik's chain, due to the damage ratio increasing its hitstun. Other than that, overall, it lowers the kill threshold for the entire cast by somewhat varying amounts, if you're into that kind of thing. Do note that there seems to be a very odd disparity between the amount that fixed knockback and damage-based knockback changes. This is especially noticeable when you jack up damage ratio to 1.5 and Meta Knight's aerial Shuttle Loop is a guaranteed KO on a large portion of the cast from 0%.

 

[Calebyte]

I'd definitely like to explore this. I'm up for anything that push the MUs of the entire roster closer to 50:50. The only adverse affect is that it could lead to shorter matches, and less follow-ups. The former doesn't concern me so much, but the latter might if it proves to be an issue.

King Dedede wins Round 1 and bans [mario's best stage]
Mario raises the damage ratio by .1
King Dedede bans [mario's second best stage]
Mario picks [his third best stage]

(I dont know anything about mario if it is not apparent)

Haha, Mario has like 2 good stages, and the rest vary from neutral to bad. A CP rule could be viable, but kind of complicated.

 

[SuSa]

Don't take Susa seriously, all he does is says he's leaving Smashboards and then comes back again without doing anything important. This looks kinda good I don't know the possibilities though

I leave for nearly a year, and came back after my reason left me. I'm also looking into the grab formula for this game, which is you know. Kind of important.

Rel/Yuna's arguments:
In this thread

I don't feel like reading 4 pages:
4 pages on this topic

I think most of the deabte is about Heavy Brawl in this thread, but it mentions 1.1
See here

I know for a fact theres a more heated debate on this subject somewhere, I remember reading about it....

Oh, I also think this gives Fox his shine spike back?

Also at this point in time, you'd have to completely re-learn Brawl as we know it if we allowed this change.... good luck convincing everyone to relearn Brawl.

Spoiler

Again, I'm not fully rejecting the idea... but many people realize it unfairly nerfs/buffs certain characters just for having a certain moveset....

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I very vaguely remember SamuraiPanda suggesting this for reasons such as DeDeDe's infinites were broken

I can't remember the counter arguements for it, someone would have to dig them out
This is just another thing you can change on the menu like Stocks and Timer so it'd be easy to simply add that as well

I'm concerned that drastic changes will happen as a result of this though. Thorough testing would have to be done because the last thing I want to do is up the damage ratio to exchange a higher rate of getting out of Tornado for a more brutal Shuttle Loop if you get the point

Also (don't quote me on this) I seem to remember there was some inconsistancy of how increasing damage ratio would actually affect moves - some would get much stronger than others for example and their effects change a lot, plus I think knockback would fluctuate a fair bit. Could there possibly be infinites/extremely strong tactics that appear form using 1.1 as the damage ratio?


Edit: Lol ninja'ed by Ankoku

 

[Raziek]

The question I am left asking myself is...... Does this stop planking?

 

[MBlaze]

I'ma try this out in a bit and give my 2 cents when I'm done.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The question I am left asking myself is...... Does this stop planking?

Forgot to mention this but it was on my mind - surely it doesn't?
If anything, does it make it worse?
Increased damage ratio = increased knockback?
If so, would shields be pushed back furthur? That'd make it ever harder to stop planking unless you're really good at powershielding


This doesn't actually change frame data though so technically I don't think this would stop planking

 

[Spelt]

it wouldn't be long before people start finding infinites and crap with the new damage ratio.

 

[SuSa]

The question I am left asking myself is...... Does this stop planking?

Let's play theorycraft:

All projectiles that have a large amount of knockback now have more knockback. This makes Snake's grenades even more awesome, while keeping Mario's fireballs about the same. [Favoring of characters due to movesets]

Projectiles having more knockback now means it gives you more space to spam them (opponents being hit further away). Approaching Pit just got harder. Pit will likely plank.

People now die sooner, and may want to camp/plank more to ensure they don't take damage.

Many multi-hit moves (not just MK's tornado) are now nerfed, favoring single, strong hitting moves (Snake's utilt, Dk's Dsmash...)

Most chaingrabs are rid of, but without testing nobody can be certain it didn't create anything worse.

Pretty sure this has no effect on the IC's chaingrabs (maybe a slight modification in the timing? Kind of doubt it...) meaning you just removed every other CG from the game... except this one. [Unfair balancing of infinites, favoring the removal of only certain infinites which only apply to certain characters]

Pretty sure the ratio only applies to base knockback, and not the growth of attacks? Meaning set knockback still goes the same distance. Pretty sure that's how it works. This increase ratio however may ruin Pit's and Diddy Kong's fsmashes, causing the second hit to hit less often.. or even worse...only when the opponent DI's into it.

I think Fox's shine gets a buff from this. Not 100% certain.

 

[Raziek]

Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific.

Does this stop MK's PERFECT PLANKING?

 

[Allied]

Forgot to mention this but it was on my mind - surely it doesn't?
If anything, does it make it worse?
Increased damage ratio = increased knockback?
If so, would shields be pushed back furthur? That'd make it ever harder to stop planking unless you're really good at powershielding


This doesn't actually change frame data though so technically I don't think this would stop planking

>Implying you can stop planking by shielding

>mfw

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Perhaps I should have been slightly more specific.

Does this stop MK's PERFECT PLANKING?

This doesn't actually change frame data though so technically I don't think this would stop planking

Why would it? All you're doing is changing the damage ratio - MK doesn't need to hit you to perfect plank he just has to...do it lol

The only way you could probably really change it is by somehow altering the gravity of the game but I'm not sure that'd be a good idea at all


@Allied: For that bit, I was talking about regular 'planking' not MK's perfect planking

Unless they're the same thing which I don't think they are

 

[SuSa]

His moves now hit you farther away, with the exception of Tornado.

If anything I'd assume it makes his planking better, now that Up-B, Uair, Dair, and the like all hit you further away - possibly removing any option you may have once had to counter it.

 

[Spelt]

I very much doubt it would.
if anything it just enhances it since you just get punished harder for trying to stop it.

 

[z00ted]

I leave for nearly a year, and came back after my reason left me. I'm also looking into the grab formula for this game, which is you know. Kind of important.

Alright, lemme try to pick your evidence apart since I wasn't "lazy" enough not to read through the threads.

Rel/Yuna's arguments:
In this thread

Both Yuna and Rel supported changing the ratio to 1.1, the only reason they disagreed with it would be taking away the "basics" of Brawl.

I don't feel like reading 4 pages:
4 pages on this topic

Almost everyone on this thread agreed with the 1.1 ratio, the people who didn't brought up accusations of Fox shine spikes (which weren't confirmed) or Shiek's broken chain (which can be banned because it is clearly broken).

I think most of the deabte is about Heavy Brawl in this thread, but it mentions 1.1
See here

Nothing to see here.

I know for a fact theres a more heated debate on this subject somewhere, I remember reading about it....

Oh, I also think this gives Fox his shine spike back?

Also at this point in time, you'd have to completely re-learn Brawl as we know it if we allowed this change.... good luck convincing everyone to relearn Brawl.

Spoiler

Again, I'm not fully rejecting the idea... but many people realize it unfairly nerfs/buffs certain characters just for having a certain moveset....

Yeah, I'll look for whatetver thread specifies in this change.

You don't have to completely learn Brawl... lol that's a fallacy.

Brawl isn't completely unfair with all these characters having a multiple number of infinites?

 

[PK-ow!]

So far, all I'm seeing is a lot of people like me, who may be a tad bit skeptical, but overall curious.

I mean, Sakurai basically put a legitimate toggle in the game that enables us to disable frowned upon freebie tactics from what Ren is describing. While I can say that 1.1 will harm the delicate follow-up game Brawl already has, it might be worth it, and definitely needs further investigating. I see good reasons for it. Where is the argument against it?

In methodological terms. You know them as well as I do.


What I do see though is the beauty of a metagame that includes all the damage ratio settings. They're all part of Brawl in the box, can't they too become part of the set procedure?

Knowing how the game works at 1.0 and at 1.1 seems to me to be a fine measure of something, and more than only knowing how it works at 1.0. Degenerate settings can be banned as with everything.


$0.02CDN

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Guys lets just play Heavy Metal Brawl

MK gets the ledge. If he tries to plank, he sinks like a brick and dies




Yea but seriously this 1.1 thing would need huge testing to make sure it didn't create even more problems

 

[Chuee]

Why would it stop perfect planking?
EDIT: Tested, and I think D3 can still smallstep CG DK in 1.1 DR.

 

[SuSa]

You don't make changes because it's "fair" or not. This is why DDD's infinite aren't banned, IC's infinites aren't banned, MK isn't banned, Pikachu's CG isn't banned, planking isn't banned, etc.

Following the precedent that has been set for making changes, we don't make them to make the game fair we make them to make the game more competitive. This is why most "random" factors are removed from the game - if possible. (Items and certain stages is an example)

The reason why we use 3 stocks was for time restraints, the same reason why we have an 8 minute timer. This is to ensure tournaments run on time. I'm sure if Brawl wasn't so slow we'd likely have 4 stocks as our stock count for games. We didn't change these factors for "balance" but for tournaments to run smoothly and on time.

If we're unwilling to just ban the infinites, why would we be willing to completely remove infinites AND chaingrabs AND make drastic changes to the metagame.


tl;dr
Stop playing crappy characters whom are the targets of an infinite. Step up and pick up a secondary.


EDIT:
I use the word "we" in the least accompanying and grouping way possible. No other noun really fits into those places, and no one persons to blame nor one entire group really...

 

[Allied]

Guys lets just play Heavy Metal Brawl

MK gets the ledge. If he tries to plank, he sinks like a brick and dies




Yea but seriously this 1.1 thing would need huge testing to make sure it didn't create even more problems

Well duh but of course theres going to be people who refuse to have it tested

Someone should get a FULL test going, get the buffs and the negativies of doing this (without bias like susa's posts) and lets try it out in a tournament setting.

Anything is better than this current metagame.

 

[GimR]

I'm curious, but, like all ideas that look good at first, there are probably still flaws.

I bet .9 would add like 10 chain grabs

 

[z00ted]

Someone PLEASE test this out.

Smash Researchers?