Smash 3DS 3DS Demo thread General

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well on Leffn's stream they just confirmed that there is almost nonexistent shield stun. Which would be a HUGE deal, so whoever has the demo needs to put more testing into that. With no shield stun and with (possibly) nerfed grabs we could be looking at an increase in defensive play even with the nerfed shield longevity.

None of the other demos seemed to look like that.

What was being done to confirm this?

 

[mario123007]

The game was great. Mario got faster and powerful this time.
Even his final Smash can caught some people.
It is also hard for you to upper KO this time.
When the match less than 30 seconds, it does turned into blast lines, no star or screen ko.

 

[Oatkeeper]

Completely agreed. If the gameplay prioritizes defense through dynamic spacing (think melee marth fair or falco SHL play) it would be okay. However, we're looking at a type of defense that requires static positioning with shields, which makes for less interesting options.

I think this may be the killer mechanic in whether or not this game has a place as a truly competitive fighter. Maybe the characters we can't play in the demo have ways of fixing this issue, only time will tell. Or we can just start with One Stock Sm4sh...

 

[Meru.]

Is there a tier list out already????

 

[mario123007]

I think this may be the killer mechanic in whether or not this game has a place as a truly competitive fighter. Maybe the characters we can't play in the demo have ways of fixing this issue, only time will tell. Or we can just start with One Stock Sm4sh...

Maybe.....

Is there a tier list out already????

no.

 

[slimjim]

None of the other demos seemed to look like that.

What was being done to confirm this?

Leffn invited a guy named Jack from his stream to come over for some 1v1 multiplayer and they were testing some options. They went to go grab food after testing some of the shield mechanics, but before they left they were checking shieldstun. Specific examples off the top of my head were Leffn attacking into Jack's shield with pikachu's fair, mario's bair, and link's bair. All could be shield-grabbed instantly, and in the case of pikachu's fair, in between hits. Leffn was unable to escape being punished for attacking Jack's shield with any attack that they tried.

EDIT: In addition, oftentimes Leffn would be grabbed before he could even hit the ground. Example: Mario short-hops a bair into pika's shield right before hitting the ground. The shield takes the hit. Then Mario gets grabbed instantly before he could hit the ground to complete the auto-cancel.

EDIT#2: I used aerials for my examples because they were mostly testing it with the areials that are known to have negligible landing lag. They did test it with some grounded moves and it was a similar situation except for grounded moves obviously have more ending lag. So it seemed prudent to them to test the shieldstun mostly with lagless aerials and make judgements from there, hence my examples.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Leffn invited a guy named Jack from his stream to come over for some 1v1 multiplayer and they were testing some options. They went to go grab food after testing some of the shield mechanics, but before they left they were checking shieldstun. Specific examples off the top of my head were Leffn attacking into Jack's shield with pikachu's fair, mario's bair, and link's bair. All could be shield-grabbed instantly, and in the case of pikachu's fair, in between hits. Leffn was unable to escape being punished for attacking Jack's shield with any attack that they tried.

I watched the other two player streams last night and some today, I didn't see this bring a prime thing when they tested stuff.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Leffn invited a guy named Jack from his stream to come over for some 1v1 multiplayer and they were testing some options. They went to go grab food after testing some of the shield mechanics, but before they left they were checking shieldstun. Specific examples off the top of my head were Leffn attacking into Jack's shield with pikachu's fair, mario's bair, and link's bair. All could be shield-grabbed instantly, and in the case of pikachu's fair, in between hits. Leffn was unable to escape being punished for attacking Jack's shield with any attack that they tried.

EDIT: In addition, oftentimes Leffn would be grabbed before he could even hit the ground. Example: Mario short-hops a bair into pika's shield right before hitting the ground. The shield takes the hit. Then Mario gets grabbed instantly before he could hit the ground to complete the auto-cancel.

Those moves, including in Melee, have very weak hitstun, even with L-canceling. I've watched a lot of streams and it doesn't seem TOO BIG of an issue. I can definitly see some worried about it, but it doesn't seem like a big issue IMO.

 

[Kos-MosPlushie]

I just watched one demo video where Megaman's Rush Coil can actually jump out of a combo (in the case of the demo, Mario's down throw).

 

[slimjim]

Those moves, including in Melee, have very weak hitstun, even with L-canceling. I've watched a lot of streams and it doesn't seem TOO BIG of an issue. I can definitly see some worried about it, but it doesn't seem like a big issue IMO.

I agree. I used those aerials for example because the point was that hitstun was not enough to prevent being punished for even the fastest-ending moves. When they tried with grounded moves with more hitstun, the shieldstun was not enough to prevent punishing them either. Leffn was making quite a large deal about it.

 

[PDOT]

Any competitive 1v1 videos from the demo on YouTube yet.

 

[ChikoLad]

Any competitive 1v1 videos from the demo on YouTube yet.

Closest thing I can find.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I agree. I used those aerials for example because the point was that hitstun was not enough to prevent being punished for even the fastest-ending moves. When they tried with grounded moves with more hitstun, the shieldstun was not enough to prevent punishing them either. Leffn was making quite a large deal about it.

Who knows about the sheildstun at this point. We can only play as 5 characters in the demo and we still don't know yet if some of the rest of cast can take advantage of this or not. We will just have to wait and see how "big" of an issue it might be. From what I've seen in gameplay, it seems that it will offer reward in both defensive and offensive play, which is a great balance IMO. I'm hyped and can't wait to experiment with the game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! WHY?! No WHITE KIRBY! Why?! T_T Makes no damn sense... if he should have ANY other color it should be white... He was originally white. I always play white Kirby... at least he's not my main. Ness better still have his white/red coloring.

To be fair, White Kirby was never in Melee and Brawl either. It's only his monochrome coloring.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Closest thing I can find.

I think we should wait until more competitive players give this game more time.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well there's plenty of 1v1 streams to watch, but none of them seem to be uploading YouTube videos because 30FPS.

 

[tupelocase]

Well there's plenty of 1v1 streams to watch, but none of them seem to be uploading YouTube videos because 30FPS.

You can comb the previous broadcasts of things like VG Bootcamp. I think they were doing best of threes last night.

 

[mario123007]

Well there's plenty of 1v1 streams to watch, but none of them seem to be uploading YouTube videos because 30FPS.

I already saw a couple of them already.
I was also busying playing the demo too.

 

[Swedish_Otaku]

To be fair, White Kirby was never in Melee and Brawl either. It's only his monochrome coloring.

Stop. -_- What do you think I meant then? (don't answer, rhetorical question)

Huh?
White Kirby is still there. I double checked because White is also my favourite scheme for him.

Where? He's not in the scan. So does Kirby have 9 colors?

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Stop. -_- What do you think I meant then? (don't answer, rhetorical question)


Where? He's not in the scan. So does Kirby have 9 colors?

His monochrome color is his white color...isn't it? o.o

 

[TheCJBrine]

Where? He's not in the scan. So does Kirby have 9 colors?

He is in the scan

White/Monochrome Kirby is the 6th color palette shown for Kirby.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Supposedly in some situations Mario can 0-death a lot of characters...but seems like it is situational on where he tried to combo you from.

 

[tupelocase]

I'm a little scared of the bowling ball now O_O

 

[EarthBoundRules]

I'm a little scared of the bowling ball now O_O

They can even pocket trees. Villager teams are going to be insane.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Do not view the Spoilers if you are one of those people who can't handle any sort of anti-hype whatsoever. Anyway I'm posting this because the thread I made in the subreddit got deleted for some reason (I think I know why, but to say what I think I'd have to take potshots at the Smash community so let's just leave it at that).

Spoiler

Yeah... Link got out of hitstun after nearly every single hit. Sorry guys.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do not view the Spoilers if you are one of those people who can't handle any sort of anti-hype whatsoever. Anyway I'm posting this because the thread I made in the subreddit got deleted for some reason (I think I know why, but to say what I think I'd have to take potshots at the Smash community so let's just leave it at that).

Spoiler

Yeah... Link got out of hitstun after nearly every single hit. Sorry guys.

Yeah I don't think the 0-67 is legit either, but from what I am watching so far on the streams doesn't seem they can really do much about it so far.

But yeah a wait and see for 2 days, then we learn the truth.

 

[Hmmmm]

Does anyone know how to play on the FD version of BattleField?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Does anyone know how to play on the FD version of BattleField?

You tap X when highlighting Battlefield on the stage select screen, if I recall correctly.

 

[Swedish_Otaku]

WTF? Yeah... sorry, white/monochrome Kirby is there. =/

When I click the link now it doesn't look like it did before. Wasn't there another link to the same scans? It's not the same place I saw them at before, in those scans the quality was maybe worse or had some weird coloring too it so it didn't look right. I donno. Good.

 

[Hmmmm]

You tap X when highlighting Battlefield on the stage select screen, if I recall correctly.

Thanks! Also probably going to main Villager. The F-smash is AMAZING!

 

[Une]

Do not view the Spoilers if you are one of those people who can't handle any sort of anti-hype whatsoever. Anyway I'm posting this because the thread I made in the subreddit got deleted for some reason (I think I know why, but to say what I think I'd have to take potshots at the Smash community so let's just leave it at that).

Spoiler

Yeah... Link got out of hitstun after nearly every single hit. Sorry guys.

Eh yeah who knows but you know, even if your foe gets out of hitstun it could still "basically" still be a combo as long as the gaps aren't too big.

 

[obeymalleo]

Does anyone know how to play on the FD version of BattleField?

Press X when selecting Battlefield.

 

[ChikoLad]

Do not view the Spoilers if you are one of those people who can't handle any sort of anti-hype whatsoever. Anyway I'm posting this because the thread I made in the subreddit got deleted for some reason (I think I know why, but to say what I think I'd have to take potshots at the Smash community so let's just leave it at that).

Spoiler

Yeah... Link got out of hitstun after nearly every single hit. Sorry guys.

I don't see what you're trying to say. The video this GIF is taken from is showing an EXAMPLE of a combo.

Maybe he can get out of hitstun for like one frame but that doesn't really mean anything. Even the best players are not going to be able to take advantage of such a tiny window (especially on the 3DS).

I still saw a quick way of piling on a lot of damage with virtually no chance of escape for the victim. That's a combo.

 

[cstonic]

Does anyone know how to play on the FD version of BattleField?

Don't have the demo but I'm pretty sure it's pressing X on the stage.

 

[Bortverde]

There is any video with the "home menu sound"? The one when you hover the game icon
edit:nevermind, already found it, a NintenDaan video

 

[pickle962]

Do not view the Spoilers if you are one of those people who can't handle any sort of anti-hype whatsoever. Anyway I'm posting this because the thread I made in the subreddit got deleted for some reason (I think I know why, but to say what I think I'd have to take potshots at the Smash community so let's just leave it at that).

Spoiler

Yeah... Link got out of hitstun after nearly every single hit. Sorry guys.

Acting out of hitstun has been removed for smash 4! Troll harder next time!

 

[ミスティック Speed]

 

[UltiMario]

So I've analyzed the information related to Megaman's Rush Cancel.

First lets analyze the gif just posted, where Link drops out of hitstun vs the entire Mario combo.

Spoiler

What this implies is Smash 4 has a combo system that relies on this principle: the average character will only be able to approach a character and initiate a move within frames of the other character escaping hitstun. Most combos won't be combos, but strings of "escapable" hits that don't give the opponent enough frames for any move to come out. By design, they simply avoiding giving characters options that are fast enough to escape these strings, giving the illusion that true combos exist in the game. They still essentially are true combos since you can't do a move fast enough to actually escape the string, but it's not a true combo where characters do not leave hitstun.

This would be fine if it only applied to these kinds of strings, but it doesn't. The "weak" hits that are used to effect multi-hit moves ALSO use this principle. This is where the problem arises.

Now lets look at this frame-by-frame of the core issue with Rush Coil that causes Rush Cancel.

Spoiler

We see 1 of the faults of where Rush Cancel happens here. We saw from other attempts that characters can initiate an up-b very soon after Mario's Dthrow, to the point where you have to watch out for it and have to be ready to react to the possibility they use up-b to try and counter combo attempts. Mega Man's, however, has an additional issue- Rush spawns on FRAME 1, hits the ground the same frame as it's supposed to spawn "in the air" because you're too close to the ground, and so megaman is moving upward from the momentum in down-throw, while rush is trying to bounce him up from his in-air position, but rush gets stuck on the ground, but the coding of the game forces Rush to bounce megaman up regardless of his relative position when he up-bs. This causes mega man to float above rush, act if hes in the air falling back down into rush (since he's being bounced in the air, while rush is on the ground), and when you go from the air onto a grounded rush you get a higher and faster bounce than normal. This can only happen if the game Spawns Rush first (Frame 1) and then forces Mega Man to Bounce on it instantly, rather than the safe approach of giving Mega Man huge vertical momentum, and then producing Rush Coil with its spring effect as an entity afterwards (which would prevent this issue from happening). In this particular situation, Mario's downthrow is the perfect catalyst for this. There are probably a lot of moves in the game that will cause this effect, seeing as at low%, attack types like this are a staple in the series.


I don't have frame-by-frames for the Rush Cancel during multi-hit moves, but I'm going off an assumption that its a combination of the above problems. First, multi hit moves are not actually combos, just strings you can't escape as explained above... With the minor oversight of a character getting a 1-frame up-B that spawns an entity, Rush, that FORCES Mega Man to bounce on it like an item interaction would cause, regardless of his position and state compared to Rush when you initially press Up-B, and not a normal mechanic in the character that adds momentum to himself by going through an inherent animation built into the character like a normal Up-B would. The difference between: Give momentum, spawn Rush Coil; and Spawn Rush Coil and then force a bounce causes a major difference in the mechanics of the move, allowing you to cancel low hitstun. As tested, harder hitting moves and throws have significantly more hitstun than weaker ones, making it impossible for anything like this happen.

tl;dr- Instead of giving Megaman an upward momentum animation, and then spawning Rush as an entity afterwards for an Up-B, Rush Coil spawns Rush Frame 1 and then forces Mega Man to bounce on it regardless of anything else that is going on around Megaman. Many multi-hit moves give Megaman even a single frame he's allowed to input an action, and Up-B is able to be pressed and instantly allow escape. This is a major oversight created from a small design choice when implementing the move.

 

[micstar615]

So I've analyzed the information related to Megaman's Rush Cancel.

First lets analyze the gif just posted, where Link drops out of hitstun vs the entire Mario combo.

Spoiler

What this implies is Smash 4 has a combo system that relies on this principle: the average character will only be able to approach a character and initiate a move within frames of the other character escaping hitstun. Most combos won't be combos, but strings of "escapable" hits that don't give the opponent enough frames for any move to come out. By design, they simply avoiding giving characters options that are fast enough to escape these strings, giving the illusion that true combos exist in the game. They still essentially are true combos since you can't do a move fast enough to actually escape the string, but it's not a true combo where characters do not leave hitstun.

This would be fine if it only applied to these kinds of strings, but it doesn't. The "weak" hits that are used to effect multi-hit moves ALSO use this principle. This is where the problem arises.

Now lets look at this frame-by-frame of the core issue with Rush Coil that causes Rush Cancel.

Spoiler

We see 1 of the faults of where Rush Cancel happens here. We saw from other attempts that characters can initiate an up-b very soon after Mario's Dthrow, to the point where you have to watch out for it and have to be ready to react to the possibility they use up-b to try and counter combo attempts. Mega Man's, however, has an additional issue- Rush spawns on FRAME 1, hits the ground the same frame as it's supposed to spawn "in the air" because you're too close to the ground, and so megaman is moving upward from the momentum in down-throw, while rush is trying to bounce him up from his in-air position, but rush gets stuck on the ground, but the coding of the game forces Rush to bounce megaman up regardless of his relative position when he up-bs. This causes mega man to float above rush, act if hes in the air falling back down into rush (since he's being bounced in the air, while rush is on the ground), and when you go from the air onto a grounded rush you get a higher and faster bounce than normal. This can only happen if the game Spawns Rush first (Frame 1) and then forces Mega Man to Bounce on it instantly, rather than the safe approach of giving Mega Man huge vertical momentum, and then producing Rush Coil with its spring effect as an entity afterwards (which would prevent this issue from happening). In this particular situation, Mario's downthrow is the perfect catalyst for this. There are probably a lot of moves in the game that will cause this effect, seeing as at low%, attack types like this are a staple in the series.


I don't have frame-by-frames for the Rush Cancel during multi-hit moves, but I'm going off an assumption that its a combination of the above problems. First, multi hit moves are not actually combos, just strings you can't escape as explained above... With the minor oversight of a character getting a 1-frame up-B that spawns an entity, Rush, that FORCES Mega Man to bounce on it like an item interaction would cause, regardless of his position and state compared to Rush when you initially press Up-B, and not a normal mechanic in the character that adds momentum to himself by going through an inherent animation built into the character like a normal Up-B would. The difference between: Give momentum, spawn Rush Coil; and Spawn Rush Coil and then force a bounce causes a major difference in the mechanics of the move, allowing you to cancel low hitstun. As tested, harder hitting moves and throws have significantly more hitstun than weaker ones, making it impossible for anything like this happen.

tl;dr- Instead of giving Megaman an upward momentum animation, and then spawning Rush as an entity afterwards for an Up-B, Rush Coil spawns Rush Frame 1 and then forces Mega Man to bounce on it regardless of anything else that is going on around Megaman. Many multi-hit moves give Megaman even a single frame he's allowed to input an action, and Up-B is able to be pressed and instantly allow escape. This is a major oversight created from a small design choice when implementing the move.

So basically combos are like how we see them, it's just not what we think? Hitstun wears off but it's not fast enough to cancel the string, correct? However exceptions such as Megaman's up B can exploit this and use that "free frame" to escape.

 

[Raijinken]

Leffen is discovering some Mega Man stuff right now. Mega Man has a ton of options! He's looking solid.

Hours later and after all my classes for the day, people have gotten past the pure hype and started to experiment, so yeah, I agree. I'm looking forward to all of this.

And while I think the Rush Escape is a cool idea that may help his short-range shortcomings, it's up to Sakurai whether or not to remove it.