ZSS seems VERY vulnerable to shield camping

[Arcana~]

I mean, running paralyzer, B-reverse paralyzer, and SHFF nair are all decent enough for approaching, but these are all slow and pretty much rely on pokes/mind games to actually get through on a foe and make an opening. I'm beginning to notice that players that are half-way competent at defending accordingly and good/smart about how they act out of their shield, ZSS can have a really hard time getting anything started on anyone. She can't just risk charging in with dash attacks and grabs because there's too much risk involved with how much more punishable she is than other characters when those things whiff or get blocked/dodged. Approaching really seems to be her biggest shortcoming. Anyone got anything they do to at least somewhat cope with this?

 

[DeLux]

Camp the **** out of them

 

[Raisin]

ZSS is a strange character when it comes to fighting defensive play. From what I gathered from Jtail's tutorial and For Glory play on YouTube, you HAVE to get mixups into your setups or else you don't get anything going. I feel the exact same way you do sometimes because I'm either in complete control, or the match drags because I can't get anything going. What I usually do is poke around a LOT. Like, dance around my opponent and see how the react to try to punish me, and punish them accordingly. You're asking an extremely good question.

 

[David Viran]

Don't act like the grab button doesn't exist. That's what I noticed in high level play they aren't afraid to go in for grabs if they have to. They usually don't whiff too much either you just have to know when to grab and condition them. They need to be smart about shielding still like know when to sheild. Tomahawk can still work with zss especially at the max range of the grab then they can barley punish zss for whiffed grabs because they are far away.

Edit: Also this is one reason why zss is considered a momentum based character. It can be hard to get something going sometimes but when you do you really get something going.

 

[NickRiddle]

Yes, ZSS loses to shields.
It's a problem when your grab is slower than the average human reaction time.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Space yourself a forward b's distance away when you notice opponents sit in shield alot. Then...let them. They MUST move. Shielding is a hard commitment. Get a feel for their threshold. At that range you are in control and you can feel out your opponent and react to what they do. Don't be so eager to simply attack so you can get advantage.

Put yourself in a position where you can just let your opponent destroy themselves.

 

[NickRiddle]

Space yourself a forward b's distance away when you notice opponents sit in shield alot. Then...let them. They MUST move. Shielding is a hard commitment. Get a feel for their threshold. At that range you are in control and you can feel out your opponent and react to what they do. Don't be so eager to simply attack so you can get advantage.

Put yourself in a position where you can just let your opponent destroy themselves.

If only it actually worked that way.
Opponents only need to shield in ZSS's Melee range, as side-b and paralyzer are both slower than human reaction time.
Once the opponent gets a lead, they can stay in a comfortable zone, and just shield whenever they get scared and react to the option that beats it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

She still has zair in that situation. Make them feel pressured and let them shield. Shielding is not that great in this game. Not as bad as 64, but not the amazing option it was in Brawl either.

Also charged paralyzer does create a strong frame situation that favors her. Throw one out and see what they do. No strategy is infallible and she does have the tools to beat shield. She is by no means without options. She is a strong character for a reason.

 

[NickRiddle]

She still has zair in that situation. Make them feel pressured and let them shield. Shielding is not that great in this game. Not as bad as 64, but not the amazing option it was in Brawl either.

Also charged paralyzer does create a strong frame situation that favors her. Throw one out and see what they do. No strategy is infallible and she does have the tools to beat shield. She is by no means without options. She is a strong character for a reason.

I'm starting to think she's isn't that strong of a character.
Zair requires a short-hop commitment, as do her aerials... which is why shielding is good against her.
Paralyzer's start-up can be punished by things like Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, etc.

I mean, yeah, it's possible to beat shields, they're just SO GOOD against her.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, I know this may seem wild but you realize top tiers are top tiers for a reason right? Yes she might struggle vs other chars on her level. What about the other 30 something? She beats alot of chars pretty handily.

As far as commitments go Zair is a very small one.

She is at worst middle of high tier.

If that isnt strong to you, then I am at a loss for words. Remember it's all relative to the entire case.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ok, I know this may seem wild but you realize top tiers are top tiers for a reason right? Yes she might struggle vs other chars on her level. What about the other 30 something? She beats alot of chars pretty handily.

As far as commitments go Zair is a very small one.

She is at worst middle of high tier.

If that isnt strong to you, then I am at a loss for words. Remember it's all relative to the entire case.

I'd consider a strong character one that could win a big tournament.
I no longer believe ZSS can do it. Trust me, it hurts to say that.

 

[David Viran]

I'd consider a strong character one that could win a big tournament.
I no longer believe ZSS can do it. Trust me, it hurts to say that.

You overrate sheilds against zss somewhat. It's not a good thing to panic sheild because if zss doesn't hit he has to do something and zss can potentially punish any of the options.

 

[NickRiddle]

You overrate sheilds against zss somewhat. It's not a good thing to panic sheild because if zss doesn't hit he has to do something and zss can potentially punish any of the options.

Who is bad enough to panic shield? Just shield when you could be in danger.

 

[David Viran]

Who is bad enough to panic shield? Just shield when you could be in danger.

It still apply for anytime you put up sheild to block unless on a reactable move.

Also with a player like nairo playing her she can possibly take a national.

 

[NickRiddle]

It still apply for anytime you put up sheild to block unless on a reactable move.

Also with a player like nairo playing her she can possibly take a national.

Most of ZSS's options are slow enough to react to since she needs to aerial with a landing short-hop, and grab/paralyzer/side-b are slow enough to react to... so... yeah...

And as more people learn ZSS, I feel like she becomes less and less viable...

 

[David Viran]

Most of ZSS's options are slow enough to react to since she needs to aerial with a landing short-hop, and grab/paralyzer/side-b are slow enough to react to... so... yeah...

And as more people learn ZSS, I feel like she becomes less and less viable...

Just because she short hops does not mean she exactly has to aerial. How can they tell the difference in time between a aerial FF to a FF. Ftilt is fast on the ground and decently safe.

How did zss in brawl make top 10 with a slightly worse grab and sheilds being better?

 

[NickRiddle]

Just because she short hops does not mean she exactly has to aerial. How can they tell the difference in time between a aerial FF to a FF. Ftilt is fast on the ground and decently safe.

How did zss in brawl make top 10 with a slightly worse grab and sheilds being better?

Because most characters/players couldn't abuse it that well?
I'm sure outside of South Florida ZSS is a MUCH better character, but most of our top players have a very good reaction time and are no longer letting me grab them.

 

[DeLux]

I want to clarify that shields were better against ZSS in Brawl.

Her Bair was able to shield poke regularly if spaced semi-immaculately and was safe on shield on landing. Her Down Smash AND Plasma Whip were safe on shield without regard to spacing. Her flip jump was invincible on startup and had more evasion properties, so chasing her or camping her was much more difficult. She could use dtilt as a high reward poke option which was safe on the back of most shields and setup for large strings. She spawned with high chance of shield poking items which boosted mobility which typically let her work with a lead, meaning shield camping wasn't as viable.

ZSS in Brawl was significantly better vs. shield than ZSS in Wii U.

 

[David Viran]

Oh yeah zss's grab comes out faster at closer range. I don't know the exact data but it's pretty noticeable.

 

[NickRiddle]

Oh yeah zss's grab comes out faster at closer range. I don't know the exact data but it's pretty noticeable.

17 frames IIRC.
Human reaction time average is 12, and if they're looking for it, reaction time could go down to 10.
7 frames to press shield + towards

 

[Shaya]

I'm just starting to feel more comfortable with the notion of being campy at a certain range and waiting.
What are people waiting for? Jumps? why not more empty sh ffs? Sh air dodge -> bair, uair, first kick of fair or down-b away.
What happens when you dash towards someone? Do they hold shield? Do we forget we have back roll or forward rolls during dashing?
Side-b well spaced is better than people give it credit for. It can be done out of dash.


I think ZSS has a lot of 'above mid range' tools in zair, side-b, paralyzer, flip jump and then some
If you're getting punished for any of these, the opposing character is obviously advancing and not just holding shield.

 

[DeLux]

Plasma whip is not safe on shield at all thought. You can air dodge into flip jump OOS on reaction. I don't know what the frame advantage on shield is for paralyzer, but it's probably not that spectacular. Zair is useless at neutral.

 

[David Viran]

Plasma whip is not safe on shield at all thought. You can air dodge into flip jump OOS on reaction. I don't know what the frame advantage on shield is for paralyzer, but it's probably not that spectacular. Zair is useless at neutral.

I would like to say one thing about side special that only like the top 5 sprinters can punish it reliably if spaced.

 

[DeLux]

The move is pretty shieldable on reaction from far away, so they can probably PSC > Destroy ZSS as a true combo.

 

[Shaya]

Flip jump as a retreat? No air dodging on reaction into that.
If we're on the ground dashing/moving and the opponent is shielding, we have a multi hit move that can cover spot dodges/roll ins and is hard for a majority of the cast to punish on shield. People are anticipating our grabs or something on block, at usually much closer range or at a very easy reaction with grab at most ranges. People see the jump in that anticipation and act accordingly as well.

Shielding is an 18 frame commitment in this game.
We're talking about shield in and of itself and dealing with 'shield camping'.
If people are actually playing footsies with us, we don't have problems.

 

[David Viran]

What does PSC mean? Power sheild cancel. It's kind of hard to PS side special because a lot of the time you get hit if you drop your sheild doing a PS.

 

[DeLux]

What multi move do we have that covers aggressive forward roll reads? >_>

 

[David Viran]

What multi move do we have that covers aggressive forward roll reads? >_>

Side special I think and that move was better than I thought on sheild if spaced properly I could block dash attack and spot dodge dash grab against falcon.

 

[Shaya]

Side special I think and that move was better than I thought on sheild if spaced properly I could block dash attack and spot dodge dash grab against falcon.

The truth right here.
"Sour" hits force tech chases we can take advantage of too, or semi-spike people off of ledges/stages (dumb people jump and we can hard read this with immediate flip kicks [stocks taken with this thus far: 2])

I spammed zair talk, and our children saw the light
I cautiously proclaim side-b prominence; but it -does- fill a hole we currently have in our game plan. Everything else we do right now is basically 50/50ing against good character's grabs (like ftilt, or ff nair/bairing shield), it sucks, I don't like doing that. These are amazing when the opponent is 50/50 going to shield it or try something else, but when it's 100% shield it's purely a 50/50 we don't like.

We have b-reverse options with it, we can use it through our dashes.
Also talking about multihit moves that can cover aggressive roll ins? It's actually plasma dash :< (and wtf I think the thing kills)

 

[DeLux]

Yall are on the koolaid lol

 

[Shaya]

Koolaid = sugar = hype = reaction speed = winning.

 

[David Viran]

Ooo I hope they Buff the damage on side b now in the balance patch slightly. It doesn't have to be back in its glory days when it did 15% but make it do more than 6 please Nintendo.

 

[Shaya]

But I am being serious. I've thought long and hard about "100% shield", and we have like a zillion alright options to play safe/pressure with to mostly keep ourselves alive. But this is for those like, "oh ****" shields which come from footsie/dynamic play, not just "anticipation I'm holding my shield baby".

I've thought about what's the best way to poke shields or tack on shield damage. That's the only way ZSS could technically achieve anti-shield reliability. At low shields stuff like dsmash and dtilt can poke, side-b pokes quite a bit strangely enough, especially if you're falling into it (b-reverses) or it's extra well spaced around it's edges.

The opponent reacts to jumps or dashes during shield anticipation. Read zair can be dashed in very easily (so can ff nair). If we're dashing and trying to cross over (ftilt or some aerial) people do have punishes for this, people tend to just hold shield though as they're expecting the dash grab or pivot grab to dodge that for something nice. Some of my opponents now roll into me as I'm crossing over in anticipation of the ftilt, which is smart for just that but falls right into what I want (people dropping their shield). I also short dash in and start charging down smash, this is been a hard learning curve because it's really easy to get dash attacked or whatever oos if you're not spacing it well (it also steps you forward, which I didn't realise properly at first). Between cross over ftilts or well spaced dsmashes in front, those are the two things an opponent tends to not want to shield. Now how are people dealing with the down smashes? Attacking first, jumping something or rather, most of these should lose to it done properly though, so people think "keep back", which is also good.

Somewhere side-b fits in. Whether it be using it in the air instead of zair which beats immediate dash ins or roll ins mostly, or for people wanting to hold shield for when I dash or attack when I get close from a dash, or when I feel their shields are low and I think this low-ish risk move could shield poke and go somewhere.

Also the animation for it shifts ZSS back -significantly-. The burst hit at the end may also count as a separate entity and hence acts outside of our hit lag.
Rudimentary looking at it in 1/4th "hold L", mode, when enemy is in hit lag the whips coming out are still retracting. But this is not the case if they get 'hit into it' from earlier hits ?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I've been using a lot of sideB, it does fill a lot of holes. It's only safe if you hit with the tip of the sphere (tested against Sheik), but in the end you are still giving them a free approach so not great. Use it as an anti air only i m o.
Lack of lasting hitbox has always been a ZSS issue and makes punishing spotdodges/rolls hard, but at least we have a job this game. Holding A has been helping me out.
DownB being better does help with out landing game. Read Zair CAN be dashed into and FF Nair too (though ff nair is harder), but paralyzer can help with that and just downBing away instead resets the situation.
And honestly, dealing with shields is also less of an issue with rolls being better. It's a matter of being calm. Shields often make people feel like they have to answer it, but walking away and charging a dsmash or ftilting is often fine. If people shield when you dash at them, just grab. If they spotdodge, pivot grab (beats spotdodges as you slide as such that the grabbox hovers over them for a long duration, effectively giving you a meaty grab) or run past pivot ftilt. Really though run past pivot ftilt is godlike.

Well, that post was all over the place. I guess what I'm trying to say that is, like in brawl, she has issues with shields, spotdodges, rolls, and safe-on-shield moves. However, just like brawl, she has things to deal with it. When I started out and people didn't know how to play ZSS, I felt like she lost that awkwardness, which I didn't like much. But she still has it, and I'm a fan tbh. I'm getting closer to cracking the stupid Sheik matchup every time I play Mr R and I'mma try to do the same with Pikachu and Ness.

 

[Muffin!]

ZSS is definitely weak against good defense but that doesn't mean she isn't viable. If she could handle defensive play without a stitch she would simply be the best player in the game. Her advantage state is so good that it would be ridiculous for her to easily break defenses.

When your opponent starts playing defensively it's not safe to rely on move that beat reaction time. If that's what you want you should play sheik or sonic. ZSS relies on mind games and getting good reads to penetrate defense. Yeah it's more difficult, but when you get through the rewards are high.