ZSS Matchup Spread

[Foo]

Start talking about matchups again for 3.6. It really seems like all of the worse than -3 matchups are now at least in the minus 3 range, and all of her bad matchups save for kirby have gotten better. The only matchups I think may have gotten worse are peach, kirby, ICs and luigi.

 

[Legit]

Played bladewise in winners quarters at EVO.... was not fun lol. Was my first time playing a good Peach though. The neutral isn't incredibly difficult. Up air and paralyzer kind of wreck her if she tries to float too high, and a grab gets us a good combo. However, the combos she can get on us are insane, she's impossible to gimp, and the second we go offstage is a stock. That nerf tho

 

[Narelex]

Me and Jolteon are cracking down on our MK MU list. What are your guys thoughts on the MU?

I feel its slight MK edge or even atm but I could be wrong.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

How would you guys describe the ZSS|Sheik MU?
Edit: DK as well

 

[ShadowKing]

Against falco she has a advantage because her speed and her improved grab she can get in there fast and get off a few nice hits off .

For captain falco he might be fast but zss is around his speed plus a nice paralyze can help her get combos in unlike falco where he can shine the paralyzer away

 

[Lust for Glory]

Falco is nowhere near even for ZSS, let alone advantageous. Falco has his lasers, which as we all know, is (one of) the best of the best when it comes to projectiles.

Falco can swoop in and out anytime with lasers or empty hops (to bait out a possible power shield attempt) to grab or whatever Falco does.

Also, ZSS doesnt really have good ways to escape falco pressure (that I know of). You're either banking on him messing up his pressure or rolling the hell out of there when you see your chance. Falco will (and should) be controlling the pace of the match in this MU with his laser, while ZSS makes the best of any hit that she gets on Falco and should result in a stock due to Falco's "recovery".

---

Falcon is a much better MU that I find is -0.5 at best, and -2 at the absolute worst. Falcon nair is the best projectile in the game, and his moves are safe(r) on shield. Also, Falcon has better kill options out of throw (not sure how true this is, basing his throw game off of 3.5), although we can tech chase him quite well with uthrow or dthrow. Also, both character recoveries are gimpable by the other quite easily, but Falcon has to be aware of your down b, jump, and walljumps. You, on the other hand, just go out there, hit him / drag him down with an up b / bully him with down b and it should be stock.

 

[Legit]

ZSS gets beaten by Falcon and Falco. I'd say Falcon is 40:60 due to his free combos/kill setups and great mobility. As for Falco... the lasers shut down her neutral completely and shine makes it impossible to punish him for anything due to her poor OoS game. Getting in on Falco is an absolute nightmare. This MU is easily 30:70 in Falco's favor, probably even worse.

MK has a slight advantage only because of how well MK can gimp her. They go fairly even in the neutral. 45:55 in MKs favor.

DK is fat and slow. Combo food. 65:35 or 70:30 ZSS favor.

As for Sheik, its definitely in Sheik's favor. She has a lot of free stuff from grabs on ZSS while ZSS has to work for her combos. It's also much easier for Sheik to edgeguard ZSS. Sheik can outcamp ZSS with needles and forces her to approach. 40:60 Sheik's favor.

 

[Player-3]

How would you guys describe the ZSS|Sheik MU?
Edit: DK as well

dk is dumb you just kill eachother in one hit lol

 

[Roche_CL]

Falcon is 90:10.
At every tournament that I go I get beaten by Falcon's. I'm a melee vet so i know the things that the char can do, and i don't find any response to anything. I was at a tournament on Vegas, won against westballz Fox, and then he picked up falcon and ***** me with shuffled neutrals, tried everything, but ended up being murdered.
My only thought on this is to just change char, It worked on a tournament, went sheik and beat the falcon that beat my Zss. Do you know if there is another good character, like a bad matchup to falcon?
Or do you guys have found any good neutral game against him?

 

[Legit]

It's not 90:10 bad. Maybe 70:30 at worst. He wins neutral for free, but he's pretty easy to edgeguard. You beat falcon the same way you beat spacies: throw them offstage and edgeguard them.

Fox is 90:10.

 

[Shokio]

90:10? That's an exaggeration right?

The MU is definitely in Falcon's favor, but ZSS's potential punish game on Falcon is way too good for that MU to be anything worse than 70:30.

I consistently beat Youngblood in that MU (2-0) and I 3-stocked DMG's Falcon in tourney before. ZSS has tools to deal with him once she puts him in a disadvantageous position.

 

[Player-3]

yea 70:30 was probably what it was in 3.5, 3.6 its alot better because your throws link into more stuff so its easier to carry him offstage

you got gimped for free pre patch anyways, all that changed is that it doesn't take as long

 

[Foo]

Are we not even gonna mention the removal of upthrow- free knee? That, honestly, is the biggest matchup changer imo. Dying to a grab from 60% to 150% was pretty significant....

 

[prem]

it still works from 75-95, obviously a much smaller window but its still there on di away. iirc it also works on di in but for sure di away means you're dead

 

[Stryker]

it still works from 75-95, obviously a much smaller window but its still there on di away. iirc it also works on di in but for sure di away means you're dead

Any other tips for this matchup? Seems to be my biggest pain in the neck as well.

 

[Roche_CL]

Yeah it was an exaggeration, but its 70:30 at least. I don't agree with the "so easy to edgeguard" part on the matchup. Unless he is in high % and is sent far away, he can just jump into the edge and our Dsmash won't work even if timed correctly. If you get the ledge he just UpB into the stage and the edgeguard wasn't a threat at all. Its hard to gimp good falcons, and even more in this game where he can side B into edge.
Haven't tried DownB but isn't it risky since the nerf?
I'd love to see some videos of anyone gimping falcon on low % if you guys have some.

 

[prem]

Any other tips for this matchup? Seems to be my biggest pain in the neck as well.

I'm not sure if this is the best way to deal with the matchup but one thing i try to do often is just stuff his approaches with utilt. its obviously a commitment and not the safest thing to do but it beats out his aerial approaches relatively well and basically is guaranteed advanteous position for you to tech chase and all that jazz on falcon. Otherwise I just look at it from the matter of just using your almost as good movement to not get hit by him cause hat sucks.

Yeah it was an exaggeration, but its 70:30 at least. I don't agree with the "so easy to edgeguard" part on the matchup. Unless he is in high % and is sent far away, he can just jump into the edge and our Dsmash won't work even if timed correctly. If you get the ledge he just UpB into the stage and the edgeguard wasn't a threat at all. Its hard to gimp good falcons, and even more in this game where he can side B into edge.
Haven't tried DownB but isn't it risky since the nerf?
I'd love to see some videos of anyone gimping falcon on low % if you guys have some.

while I agree that edge guarding falcon is not as free as many people make it out to be, it is still relatively easy to pull off. using the uncharged gun is somewhat similar to how falco edge guards him by limiting his options, except you can go really deep. Dsmash covers basically everything from a low angle, so if hes at about stage height you can just dsmash and react to his upb. Dsmash has no lag so just hit him with a reverse up air or something. You can also definitely cover a lot of his options with down b or even nair or fair and then grab the ledge faster than him with the tether if he dodges it with up b in a lot of situations too but thats way riskier if he can side b to the stage still.

if hes obviously making it back towards the stage with his upb you can also grab it and just ledgedash on cause he still has that insane landing lag where you can grab him and continue comboing him

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Personally, even though ZSS has a pretty great on-stage edge guarding tool in the form of dsmash, her off-stage edge guard game is so good that it's hardly ever better to cover the on-stage option than to go out there and be more aggressive off-stage if you have the option.

(Vs. LOW)
Down-B divekick covers a huge diagonal slice. Even if you miss, your reel in is so fast that you can get back on ledge before your opponent does if you're smart about using it. You don't even have to use the divekick. Just Down-B to threaten space and push them out.

(Vs. MID)
Refresh ledge invincibility and snipe them with either bair or uair. Both of these moves are very fast and hit opponents away. Because ZSS's tether reaches so far, you can cover lots of space with these moves as fast-falling them is an option as well as fade-away, double-jump kicks.

(Vs. HIGH)
Run off-stage and Down-B double-jump uair. Or Down-B doube jump Up-B if they're in the corner. ZSS's has so much control over the stage above her because of her specials that there is literally nowhere an opponent can stall off-stage without fear of getting kicked in some way, shape, or form.

Blaster shot is also good for cutting off angles, but don't be lazy and just charge dsmash on-stage right afterwards. Be comfortable off-stage and get easy gimps. Anyone who thinks that edge guarding a Falcon isn't fairly straight-forward probably isn't utilizing the entirety of her edge-guarding kit.

 

[Stryker]

Personally, even though ZSS has a pretty great on-stage edge guarding tool in the form of dsmash, her off-stage edge guard game is so good that it's hardly ever better to cover the on-stage option than to go out there and be more aggressive off-stage if you have the option.

This feels intrinsically like the right answer to me. With her ease and safety of being offstage when someone isn't holding the edge, I feel like going deeper than marianna's trench on people is something that is an inherent advantage of her kit that needs to be properly used to use her to her full potential.

 

[Shokio]

Depending on their distance, I like to shoot a paralyzer out, then react to their reaction. If the laser hits them, it's a hit-confirm into a fair. If they use some stall method to avoid the laser, I just readjust my height and punish their fall.

 

[Deleted member]

Depending on their distance, I like to shoot a paralyzer out, then react to their reaction. If the laser hits them, it's a hit-confirm into a fair. If they use some stall method to avoid the laser, I just readjust my height and punish their fall.

look at you, lookin like you know how to play smash bros, beating my teammate, taking the edge in friendlies, you done all growd up

 

[Shokio]

look at you, lookin like you know how to play smash bros, beating my teammate, taking the edge in friendlies, you done all growd up

D'aww, shucks. I'm tryin lol.

 

[Arcana~]

Who of you would agree that Zamus' top 3 worst MU's are Sheik, Fox, and Falcon? Just curious if these picks would be widely unanimous or these are just my own personal gripes.

 

[Shokio]

Who of you would agree that Zamus' top 3 worst MU's are Sheik, Fox, and Falcon? Just curious if these picks would be widely unanimous or these are just my own personal gripes.

Nah. I actually find Fox the easiest spacie to deal with. Wolf and Falco are definitely harder to deal with, as Wolf's insane fall speed makes it REALLY hard to get something started until really high percents, and Falco's lasers and pressure shuts her down completely. I'd say Falco, Sheik, and Wolf are probably her 3 roughest ones.

Sheik is definitely pretty rough for her. Falcon has the edge, but like I've said before, her punish game on Falcon is too good. You can effectively 0-to-death him, mostly because of his really bad tech roll.

 

[prem]

I know I have the questionable opinion on this but really I think the falcon matchup is even just super volatile both ways, so at the very least i wouldn't say its in her worst 3 matchups

 

[Legit]

I think her 3 worst matchups are the 3 spacies (fox falco wolf), the worst probably being Falco. Laser and shine pressure literally make ZSS completely useless in the neutral. I find myself just grasping for a stray hit anywhere i can get it. If he jumps I iimmediately try to hit him with an uair or upb. After that all we can do is just tech chase him, and if a single one is dropped its back to fishing for stray hits. I may be biased about this because I play DP almost every week in GFs and win maybe 1/5 sets against him. The matchup really feels nearly unwinnable, I just can't figure it out. Same kinda goes for Wolf.

Fox's lasers don't shut down ZSS's neutrals as hard as Falco's or Wolf's, so she has a less difficult time in the neutral against Fox imo. But Fox is harder to edgeguard and his shine destroys our recovery. ZSS is also combo food for all spacies due to her weight and lack of a combo breaker, and with fox having a kill confirm at 75-80 out of uthrow means he can do 1 combo on us, then grab us and we're dead.

 

[Roche_CL]

I Find fox the easiest of the 3.
Upthrow Uair is really easy to smash DI in PM, i can get it like 90% of the time.
I find easy to edgeguard him, maybe cause I'm used to fox options from melee, so its easy to cover with Dsmash or short hop Bair. Also he is easy to combo if you manage to get some Usmashes and Nairs in Mid %.
Wolf is so hard, falco can be managed if you powershield ok.
I still find falcon the worst matchup :x

 

[Shokio]

It's Falco > Wolf > Fox for sure.

Falcon is so much easier than people make him out to be I feel. I wish I had some ZSS vs. Falcon footage but despite I&B having like 5 regular Falcon's I don't get to play them much. ZSS's punish and combo game on him is just sooooooo good.

 

[Legit]

I thought Falcon was extremely hard at first, but after playing that MU a lot I realized it's not THAT bad. ZSS can punish and edgeguard him extremely well. It's just that Falcon can do the same thing to us but for free and at nearly all %s. Just have to play safe and wait for an opening.

I Find fox the easiest of the 3.

I like to say Fox is the "least difficult", cuz there ain't nothin easy about that **** lmfao

 

[Arcana~]

The Falcon MU is subjective. Yeah Zamus can do a lot nasty stuff to him but Falcon has just as much dirt on her. In a way the two outright demolish each other, though I generally believe Falcon has the easier time while Zamus needs to work harder at it. Zamus being a moderately tall-sized character with relative floaty-ness and being lightweight, she is some of the easiest combo fodder in the game for him to chew up and kill early with things like u-air strings and jab/nair into knee.

I don't know what kind of Falcons you all have faced but if you've played one that is flawless, intelligent, and perfectly on point with every attack they throw and movement they make then the MU becomes a game of "catch me if you can" with the payoff being first hit landed gets stomped. Hard.

Personally I think Falcon has an easier time landing that first hit with flying short-hop nairs and a basic jab string both of which lead into grabs at low % and combos/kill moves at mid/high %. Falcon gets a lot out of his throws what with guaranteed aerial attack follow ups after his up/down throws. He may have a bad tech roll but unless you catch him teching with a dsmash after dthrow Zamus won't be getting any kills on Falcon after a throw.

 

[Legit]

I didn't mean to say it's in ZSS's favor in the slightest. It's at least 60:40 Falcon. Both characters destroy each other on hit but ZSS has to work harder and her stuff can be DI'd pretty easily. Falcon also kills a lot earlier, and out of a throw too.

 

[Narelex]

Current thoughts on the MK MU?

 

[Shokio]

Current thoughts on the MK MU?

I can't say for certain, but based off what I've played it feels even enough. I don't think either character has a huge advantage.

 

[Foo]

I'm pretty sure it was decently disadvantageous in 3.5, but I think the upthrow and blaster changes help zss more than her down-b nerf (doesn't matter in this matchup because he could stop you from using it to recover anyway) and his changes help him. I'd guess it's close to even with maybe a slight advantage towards MK, it'd all depend on how well upthrow works on mk and how well zss can combo him overall now. I think that extra weight on mk might change things.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from 's Perspective (+3 has ZSS winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:
-1:
-2:

-3:

What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

This is for updating the (outdated) community matchup chart.

 

[G13_Flux]

i really dont think the space animals are -3. its kind of all relative i guess, but i prefer to use percentages since i feel it gives a better gauge of how often the characters would theoretically win against each other. fox i think is 60-40 and falco and wolf could approach 55-45, all in their favor. falcon and shiek imo are 55-45 (in their favor) on most stages. She beats marth by a tad, probably 45-55 in ZSS favor. roy definitely beats her though. i dont think kirby beats her, nor lucas m2 or snake. take what you want out of my opinion, but if anything, I am very sure she beats marth.

 

[Kneato]

i really dont think the space animals are -3. its kind of all relative i guess, but i prefer to use percentages since i feel it gives a better gauge of how often the characters would theoretically win against each other. fox i think is 60-40 and falco and wolf could approach 55-45, all in their favor. falcon and shiek imo are 55-45 (in their favor) on most stages. She beats marth by a tad, probably 45-55 in ZSS favor. roy definitely beats her though. i dont think kirby beats her, nor lucas m2 or snake. take what you want out of my opinion, but if anything, I am very sure she beats marth.

Do you have any sets to support your opinions?

 

[G13_Flux]

Do you have any sets to support your opinions?

i dont have any videos.

marth: the main thing with this MU is that ZSS just has a way better time getting conversions. she outpaces marth a good amount, has a low commitment projectile, and relevant disjoint to contend with his. marth getting a grab does get him some juggle opportunity, but it doesnt take him as far as other MUs because ZSS has burst movement with down b as an aid against juggles. when it comes to edge guarding, marth is honestly not great at edge guarding ZSS. dtilt or dair edge guards are completely negated. He has a terrible punish game on tethers. contrary to popular belief, its extremely difficult to time a dair and get a spike off. ZSSs reel in is approximately 10 frames, which is well below a normal reaction time. nothing he has gives a good punish onstage either during the forced hop (as opposed to punishes from characters like fox, roy, falcon, wolf, etc. that can link right into direct kill moves with almost %100 certainty). all in all, ZSS wins neutral more often with a higher mobility and a great projectile, punish game favors ZSS, and survivability favors ZSS as well. marths punish game gets a bit better on FD, but neutral still doesnt get too much easier for him. Smaller stages also help out marth since he can zone out well and has a better chance of landing an fsmash. Th MU could become much closer to even at places like FoD or GHZ, but the probability of marth getting one of these stages on a CP is a lot less given theres more relevant stages that ZSS will do better than him on (FD, BF, any big stage like delfinos or DL, PS2, etc)

fox: i wont go into depth much here, as i agree its one of her worst MUs, but the main thing is that she has the tools in neutral such that shes not significantly disadvanted. She has a much easier time getting grabs than 95% of the cast, and her chain grab runs from 20-80% with a guarenteed bair or fair a lot of the time. considering other safe neutral tools like paralyzer and bair, i dont think its so bad that its any more than somewhere between -1 and -2 (60-40 to me).

wolf: your blaster outpaces his, and you have a better DD than him (and higher run speed, and mobility in gerneral). less beefy hitboxes from neutral mean that wolf has a harder time dealing with the gaps in between ZSSs attacks. slightly higher lag on most of wolfs moves (relative to fox at least) contribute to this as well. tether punishes/edge guards arent quite as brutal as fox's, but are still very very good. the difference in neutral imo is what makes this more towards (55-45 on bigger stages, 60-40 on smaller ones imo. definitely not quite -3).

falco: if falco got FD every time, itd be one things. but ZSS is able to contend much better on most of the other maps with platforms, since her mobility around platforms is extremely good. a low crawl helps with lasers too (falco doesnt want to fire them low every time). this adds up to her being able to contend in neutral surprising well, though still being disadvantaged a bit. he has a pretty decent punish for onstage tether jumps, but relatively poor offstage edge guarding means ZSS is going to come back from anything and everything so long as she doesnt get killed outright. falco still wins this for the most part, imo, just a bit more marginally. the quality of the neutral game advantage that falco has isnt enough to make up for the quality of ZSSs punish game on him, such that it would be -3 (70-30). Imo this is the easiest spacie MU. might say its evenish on the largest stages like DL and delfinos. all other stages are at least 55-45. if YS was a thing (its not being put on the stagelist on a lot of tournaments) then hed probably be 60-40 there. FD might be 60-40.

kriby: hes not mobile on the ground, and ZSSs ability to threaten airspace is reallly good. the main thing he has going for him is that he can duck under ZSSs normal grab, which forces her to sometimes use her laggy dash grab. as opposed to shiek however (who also has a crawl, and a dtilt/grab that converts really well) kirby wont get as much from it as you think. a crouching kirby is an immobile kirby, and immobile kirbys get dsmashed. since hes already at a significant mobility disadvantage, i find it unlikely that this trait will allow him to beat ZSS. he does have a good edge guarding game, but compared to other characters, ZSS has some of the best offstage burst movement options to defend against edge guards. doesnt mean she wont get edge guarded, just a bit less than others. overall I cant see kriby being able to garner the conversions he needs often enough to put ZSS a position where he will edge guard her so hard that the MU is in his favor. just cant see it.

 

[DMG]

Man u guys are pessimistic about Falcon, it's not that bad. Although I would say maybe it's 7:3 on super Falcon CP's like FD. On flip side, entirely plausible for ZSS to go 5:5 or 55:45 on her CP stages.

Falco MU I think would improve for you guys with more extensive crawl and PS. Crawling in general can be pretty annoying to deal with, you and Sheik players should get on it.

 

[G13_Flux]

Man u guys are pessimistic about Falcon, it's not that bad. Although I would say maybe it's 7:3 on super Falcon CP's like FD. On flip side, entirely plausible for ZSS to go 5:5 or 55:45 on her CP stages.

Falco MU I think would improve for you guys with more extensive crawl and PS. Crawling in general can be pretty annoying to deal with, you and Sheik players should get on it.

what stages do you think falcon doesnt perform as well against her?

in my experience, ZSS would much prefer a bigger stage (DL, delfinos) where running around, abusing platforms, and throwing out paralyzer shots are very conducive to finding openings. With a long recovery, she will live much longer than most as well, and can use a great gimping game to secure her kills faster than the opponent. It seems like this would still mostly be the case against falcon, but since hes quicker than her on the ground, and can cover platforms very well with uair, I still wouldnt have thought she would be able to come out more than even.