ZSS Matchup Spread

[ted dorosheff]

I haven't read everything but I see some comments about Zelda vs ZSS matchup. Well, maybe I can say something about this because I also use Zelda but as a secondary and much like my ZSS, my friends absolutely despise my Zelda.
As a match up, I really want to say that Zelda is more in favor to win.

I'm gonna go Kevin Hart here so Let Me Explain!

ZSS with great speed may sound like she has an advantage, plus lots of moves that can combo. Her KO moves are kind of limited however. (2nd hit Fair, Bair, Fsmash I would say are her main KO moves). Zelda though, I mean cmon, Sweetspot Fair and Bair, Up-Air, Fsmash, up-tilt just to name some, and to make things worse...transform to Sheik and make the match up more difficult...
I won't get into the Sheik match up though.

Zelda being floaty makes it nearly impossible to string hits properly, assuming the user also has good DI. ZSS downthrow, has such a tight window to actually get a legit hit combo on Zelda that it really isn't worth the risk of getting hit by a Nair or worse Sweetspot Fair from Zelda's boot.
Unless you have some REALLY good timing I would suggest to bait out an attack instead.

Things get worse for ZSS when off stage. Due to thether recovery, Zelda can possibly negate ZSS even be able to grab the ledge after a tether using Din's Fire (Side-B). When recovering with a tether, ZSS is actually a few frames vulnerable when reeling in to grab the ledge (she can get gimped like this by Fox). So with a Din's Fire placed near a ledge what can ZSS do besides try to wait it out???
I've yet to actually test this to make sure I'm right so if you believe I'm wrong then please by all means test this out because I don't want to give bad info.

Now this is minor but if by any reason that a ZSS player uses the Neutral B paralyzer, Zelda can just send it right back with Nayru's Love Neutral B. That's not the point though. it's Zelda's Nayru's Love is what I'm pointing out because I'm somehow convinced that it has invincible start up frames. Even though the PM3.5 change list doesn't say anything about invincibility. I'm just going to assume that it's the reduced start up frames instead.

I'm fairly certain that it's all because Zelda is floaty...and dealing with floaties is not something I enjoy as a ZSS main.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't like being wrong.

What you said about zss on the ledge vs zelda is absolutely true. My friend mains zelda these days, and he has become VERY effective with his dins fire placement. He will usually put them just above the corner of the ledge, so that i cant get onto the stage by ledge attacking with B or by trying the jump away then fair/nair/uair approach. I can approach by jumping up and DI'ing slightly away from the stage, then flip jumping, but then all he needs to do is shffl a nair. Pretty much if he places that dins just right, i have to stall long enough on the ledge to wait it out. He has caught onto this however, and so now he calls back the din, only to place another one a couple feet away from the edge.

I think you are right in saying that the zelda/zss MU is slightly in zelda's favor. She just has so many things that offer her an advantage over zss. Pretty much, he (zelda) can play a slightly sloppy game, and win; I (zss) have to play very cautiously with minimal mistakes to not get 1-2 stocked, let alone try to get a win.

We were playing yesterday on battlefield, and he pretty much would just stay in the middle of the stage, throw out a dins to keep me moving and wait for my approach, which was usually stuffed with nayrus or nair. If i tried to space him out, he would throw a dins to its minimum distance, which really killed my spacing efforts.

 

[Player-3]

much, he (zelda) can play a slightly sloppy game, and win; I (zss) have to play very cautiously with minimal mistakes to not get 1-2 stocked, let alone try to get a win.

ye

welcome to zss don't mess up

 

[Foo]

This kinda of thing is hard to do because of our different regions and the different skill levels with our respective players with their respective characters. So I can only base this off of my personal experiences, naturally.

+3: Ganon, Charizard, DDD
+2: DK, Bowser, ROB, Wario
+1: Ivy, Samus, Pikachu, Snake, Zelda
0.5: Yoshi, Pit, Ike, Metaknight, Marth

0: Mario, Sonic, Lucario, Link, Peach

0.5: Jiggs, Squirtle, Icy's, Toon Link
-1: Roy, G&W, Diddy, Lucas, Luigi
-2: Kirby, Falcon
-3: Shiek
-4: Falco
-5: Wolf, Fox

A few notes:

Ganon is so high on the ease list because while the big-body chars are slow, they at least have range and large disjoints or armor to deal with faster foes. Ganon lacks the speed as well as any large sword/tail/hammer or armor, so ZSS can pretty much run circles around him and basically choose when she wants to go in.

Squirtle is slightly on the negative side because we've all agreed that the MU is "awkward". I can't considering something that feels "awkward" even. Anything that makes you feel uncomfortable is a disadvantage. She can combo him just fine, once she finally pops him up, but popping him up can be the hard part.

My placings for Marth and Ike may admittedly be very bias, because I consistently beat both SparkingZero (Ike) and Dizzy (Marth) with ZSS. But Marth is at a perfect combo weight for Marth and she gets free laser pokes on him. Her lasers neutralize Ike's QuickDraw game and she can snipe Ike out of Aether with F-Smash (it requires good timing but I constantly do it to Sparking). A divekick edgeguard usually means death for both characters as well (unless the Marth uses extremely good DI; Ike is done.)

Falco is below Wolf and Fox simply because he is easier to gimp; I agree with his placing.

Although ZSS beats Marth, Roy beats her due to his stronger punish game and CC + D-tilt. ZSS is a very weak character against CC. Roy is the pioneer of CC counters.

Falcon's rough, yeah, but I wouldn't put him on -3 tier due to his terrible, easy-to-read tech roll, and her ability to Up-Air him off-stage with ease. We know ZSS doesn't get much off of throws, but on Falcon, they're actually pretty effective. And of course he's easy to gimp.

Metaknight is actually in ZSS's favor, because comboing him is extremely free, especially with Dair. His light-ness makes Dair -> Bair kills effortless, and with no projectile and a trans sword, he can't swipe her lasers.

Don't remember why I put ganon at +1, he's definitely better than that. However, I wouldn't say he's anywhere near as easy as DDD or charizard just because of combo weight (also, ganon has a better neutral against zss than ddd or zard imo). You guys keep saying random characters are the "perfect combo weight" but are just flat out wrong. Charizard and D3 are the perfect combo weight. If you get them off the ground, it's just over. Nair string into whatever the hell you want. Also, not sure why I put D3 at +2 instead of +3. Bowser is also +2 now. I felt like I was just playing the matchup wrong, but the more I think about it, it is just so damn hard to get him off the ground, and he has so many quick powerful options that one read by bowser is stock. Once you do get him off the ground though... rip

One last fight for marth. I really just don't see how you guys keep saying marth is the perfect combo weight. He's very light and pretty floaty. ZSS likes heavy floaties the best, then midweight semifloaties, then light slightly less semifloaties, then pretty light semifloaties. Marth's combo weight is fine, but it's nowhere near as free as it is against fatties or even as good as peach. Also, edguarding marth isn't that easy if marth knows what he is doing. Divekick is very telegraphed and marth's side-b covers so far above him, as long as he doesn't side-b for no reason, zss shouldn't be able to divekick unless he is forced to use side-b to make it to stage. You can still edgeguard him the normal way, but it's not free kills. Marth, on the other hand, gets free kills of zss. His bair is completely free against zss once she has to tether ledge. If you fade back, ledgehop bair kills you so you have to go forward and just keep getting knocked back off and hop he messes up. I also think marth wins the neutral pretty hard because he is about as mobile with an insane priority advantage and dat dtilt and grab range. You have blaster, but he has the best tools to clank it as well as a big shield and a great wavedash oos. Main problem I have with the matchup overall is that spaced bair is almost useless against marths fairs and you can't ever cross up his shield or space dtilt/dsmash on his shield. As for ike, I wouldn't say blaster neutralizes quickdraw at all. Quickdraw is mostly used to just extend punishes, and he can just short hop over while charging quickdraw anyhow. Now that we can't DC, he can actually punish blaster.

While she has an ok punish game on falcon, I don't think he's quite so easy to edgeguard. Falcon's up-b often armors through divekick and makes me want to tear my hair out, and his side-b is only punishable if you read it if he does it correctly. Certainly an easy character to edgeguard, but I don't think zss is particularly terrific at it. Most characters can gimp falcon pretty well and yet he is still super duper good. The problem is that it's almost impossible to grab a good falcon and having low disjoint (you know, on moves that are fast enough to matter) and no lingering hitboxes, it's hard to knock him over. He also has an insane punish game on you. You can recovery easily against him, but it doesn't matter because you died to knee at 60%.

I agree with the lasers against mk, he does have poor options to deal with them, and I think it's one of the only matchups zss likes FD on. However, mk is NOT a good combo weight. On DI down and away, he can get out of any type of strings with upair or nair. Only combo starters that work against him are dair and dsmash, but those are VERY hard to hit on a good MK. Good luck consistently landing dair on a really fast character his insanely quick and disjointed moves that cover his head. Also, mk nair covers fadeback for free and also hits fade forward so recovering against MK is actually impossible past around 100%and until then you have to eat nairs OR if he reads fade forward he can bair you off stage. He can probably just nair fade back on reaction while bairing you anytime you fade forward and idk if you can even amsa tech it.


@D.C.L Think about the matchup in a world where you aren't approaching zelda. You just sit at long range and spam blasters, and yes, she can reflect one but that does nothing because it just reflects it into another blaster. When she tries to approach, zss can wall her out with spaced bairs and then only way through is dash attack. However, if zss dodges that zss can start a good combo string and put zelda in the air where zss can up-b her back to stage and get a tech chase and repeat. That's basically how the matchup plays.

Also, things you were wrong about.

1. Floaty means impossible to combo- Nope, you just have to nair string her with very tight inputs and switch to backwards nairs when she gets high enough in the air.
2. Free edgeguards with dins. Zelda's kill moves send you fairly high, so you usually don't have to tether stage to recovery. Even if you do, zss will often go through dins, but if you get hit, you can just retether anyway as dins has basically no knockback.


Basically, zelda has a really low skill floor and zss has a really high skill floor. You need really good movement and shffling to unlock any of zss's good options where zelda's options are mostly all pretty basic in terms of tech. The better both players get, the more the matchup favors zss.

Yall think we beat ivy?? Maybe i just suck at the mu but bair kinda beats everything zss have imo. And ivy is a ...... to approach.

I dont get bodied by ivys by any means. But more often then not i end up loosing cause i can't close out that last stock against ivy. Last 3 pm tournaments i've been in i lost to a ivy game 3. Would love to know what im doing wrong.

Yeah, you can't beat ivy bair, but nobody can directly. You have to play around ivy's poor mobility. Funny thing is, zss actually can kinda beat it out with fmsmash if you see it coming and dash away pivot fsmash. Ivy is also a good combo weight for nair chains, and of course ivy tether is a free fair. To approach just spam blaster, it trades with razor leaf and is much more spammable.

 

[ted dorosheff]

Basically, zelda has a really low skill floor and zss has a really high skill floor. You need really good movement and shffling to unlock any of zss's good options where zelda's options are mostly all pretty basic in terms of tech. The better both players get, the more the matchup favors zss.

So i've only been playing smash seriously for about 2 years now, and one thing i've noticed is this strange phenomenon (or what i consider to be a phenomenon) of playstyle. I regularly play project M with a coworker during lunch breaks, and we play every day during the week. His tech skill is non-existent, but his strategy game is pretty strong. I have another friend who i play with, and his tech skill is unreal. Both of them dabble with Ike, but the play styles are so radically different, that what works against one doesnt work against the other. When i play with the one who has more of a tech game, i speed up my game play to counter. If i try speeding up my gameplay against the other Ike, i fail. Its like i have to dumb-down (no offense to my coworker) my play in order to not get beat.

 

[KingDozie]

So i've only been playing smash seriously for about 2 years now, and one thing i've noticed is this strange phenomenon (or what i consider to be a phenomenon) of playstyle. I regularly play project M with a coworker during lunch breaks, and we play every day during the week. His tech skill is non-existent, but his strategy game is pretty strong. I have another friend who i play with, and his tech skill is unreal. Both of them dabble with Ike, but the play styles are so radically different, that what works against one doesnt work against the other. When i play with the one who has more of a tech game, i speed up my game play to counter. If i try speeding up my gameplay against the other Ike, i fail. Its like i have to dumb-down (no offense to my coworker) my play in order to not get beat.

Thats why i believe that mus generally dosnt matter and its just up to players skill, obivously its easier if you have a character suited for that matchup, Its all about adapting to opponents style and also who can adapt better.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

@ Vixen

https://youtu.be/anS2wgWHRHk

Here's a matchup analysis I did on your set against Silly Kyle. I think that there's definitely some room for optimization in ZSS play and think that it's premature to call the matchup in Peach's favor. I definitely still think it's still even or even ZSS's favor. Good stuff and good movement, though! Those SDs are kinda what did you in-- you should've won that set. I'm definitely going to steal some things from you. Mainly your wavedash OoS follow ups.

 

[Vixen]

@ Vixen

https://youtu.be/anS2wgWHRHk

Here's a matchup analysis I did on your set against Silly Kyle. I think that there's definitely some room for optimization in ZSS play and think that it's premature to call the matchup in Peach's favor. I definitely still think it's still even or even ZSS's favor. Good stuff and good movement, though! Those SDs are kinda what did you in-- you should've won that set. I'm definitely going to steal some things from you. Mainly your wavedash OoS follow ups.

I'm watching it now. Awesome. :3

So some things to point out!

A. I SUUUUPER appreciate this. I really needed a fresh look at the match up.

@3:31 I did a ledgehop, which is why I didn't have a second jump. I thought I could have either landed on the lip of the stage, and reacted too slowly when I realize I didn't.

@7:04, Silly Kyle was already covering a low recovery option, and the boost jump gives you a LOT of height. Since ZSS has really good aerial glide, the air dodge was the best option IMHO. Kyle's really good at covering tether recoveries.

@12:57, the fair I actually faded back if you look closely. I landed outside of Peach's range to punish, BUT, I started to dash forward towards peach afterwards which if what got punished. I'm pretty sure I was trying for a grab.

@13:38 the fsmash was a failed buffer roll. Specifically what happened was I tried to do invincible ledgedash > buffered forward roll, but the shield wasn't out yet when I hit C-stick forward.

Around 15, you make a point of ZSS being a multi-jump character and possibly being able to end that specific combo with something big. At that point, it may have been possible to down B to the right, then double jump to the left with a bair, but I'm not sure if it would actually have connected or not. By then, Peach may have been out of stun and could potentially have traded. The uair I did wasn't exactly a "bad" choice. Because Peach has bad buttons coming down, I wanted to try and catch Peach with something like an up B and force a tech/no tech punish.

@18:14 I definitely should have gone for that down B though. I do go for down B mixups, but I'll definitely yield that you do it a lot more than I do. It's something I'm gonna work on implementing more.

@25, that fsmash was SUPER planned lol.

@27, yeah panic fsmash. I REALLY liked the down air suggestion. I'm going to have to try that. :3

@31, usmash WAS supposed to be an up air. I do my airs with tapjump+A, so that happens occasionally.

Closing thoughts:

I should probably bair more.
The suicides in game 2 were kinda panic-induced. I normally don't miss the down B > walljump > tether on that stage, but hey. It happens.
I fsmashed way too often.
I also just sorta ran in to hitboxes in neutral. Trying a little too hard to force myself in.

This helped me see some stuff fosho.

 

[Player-3]

@ Vixen someone showed me this a few days ago, you can regrab peach on DI away i tried it in tournament and it worked, thought you might wanna know https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c

 

[ted dorosheff]

@ Vixen someone showed me this a few days ago, you can regrab peach on DI away i tried it in tournament and it worked, thought you might wanna know https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c

thats pretty cool. do you know when you can start buffering the dash?

 

[Vixen]

That's neat. :3

 

[InfinityCollision]

One frame before FAF. Technically you can't actually buffer a dash in PM, but the way dash detection works gives you a frame of leniency on the input timing. The only inputs that have true buffers in PM are c-stick inputs in shield (jump/roll/spotdodge) and tap jump (special 3-frame window, you have to still be holding up during your first actionable frame).

 

[ted dorosheff]

ahh okay thanks

 

[Foo]

@ Vixen someone showed me this a few days ago, you can regrab peach on DI away i tried it in tournament and it worked, thought you might wanna know https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=373ANom4M-c

Problem with that is the inputs are too precise to be actually feasible since there is a 3 way mixup. If peach DI's up and away at most %s, you have a small window for an aerial, if she DIs away, you have a TINY window for a regrab, and if she DIs down and away, you get a tech chase (I believe the % where she can't DI into the ground is past the point where DI down and away leaves no follow ups). That means you have basically have to guess a 1/3, and if you guess one of two of them, you need to input nearly frame perfectly on a weight dependent throw and if you guess the third one, you still have to read the tech. Even against peach, her Dthrow is pretty bad.

 

[Player-3]

Problem with that is the inputs are too precise to be actually feasible since there is a 3 way mixup. If peach DI's up and away at most %s, you have a small window for an aerial, if she DIs away, you have a TINY window for a regrab, and if she DIs down and away, you get a tech chase (I believe the % where she can't DI into the ground is past the point where DI down and away leaves no follow ups). That means you have basically have to guess a 1/3, and if you guess one of two of them, you need to input nearly frame perfectly on a weight dependent throw and if you guess the third one, you still have to read the tech. Even against peach, her Dthrow is pretty bad.

Um... No.... Its definitely feasible lol, peach cant ever di into the ground

 

[Foo]

Um... No.... Its definitely feasible lol, peach cant ever di into the ground

From Drinking Food himself (also, yes she can)

Well my methods aren't perfect but I try

Example worth noting is the whole ZSS dthrow on peach. Subtle DI changes and non-overlapping frame-perfect regrab windows basically mean ZSS players would need to be gods. So I would go back and correct myself in that it's not reliably feasible on peach (and probs zelda).

 

[Player-3]

i guess im a god then lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

Or your partner's DI is sub-optimal and/or too consistent and/or he's not trying to break out at the right time

 

[Vixen]

I did the CG on Silly Kyle in bracket. It's 100% feasible in real time. It's only viable at low percents, but afterwards you get a solid tech chase, or a straight up follow up.

 

[Player-3]

^ thank you

 

[Vixen]

I think people really underplay how ****ing good ZSS's grab game is. Vs the entire cast her throws either:

A: Chain grab
B: Have a guaranteed follow-up
C: Force a tech chase.

Vs a large portion of the cast, her grab release near the edge is a super solid 50/50.

In doubles, her Forward Throw has a massive hitbox on her blaster with the electricity property. It's SUPER good at disrupting pressure, and grabs are insanely easy to get in doubles.

Uthrow is also a super solid tool vs most of the cast. Floaties get hit by uthrow uair/nair, fast fallers get forced in to an easy tech chase at low percents, and chaingrabbed around 50. Sets up for platform tech chases which at this point should be considered guaranteed with how much time you have to react and how much space uair covers.

Bthrow is her weakest throw, but it has its situational uses.

*Edit*

As for the down throw on peach thing, you don't need to be a god. Just a melee player. We deal with SDI and slight DI changes 10000000000x more than PM players since Melee is far more optimized at a high level.

 

[silverscope13x]

I have to say this about the Marth match-up: I have no issue playing against Marth. I actually have a little bit more trouble with Roy than Marth, to be honest.

Also, I have a question regarding the Rob match-up. How can I get in? I can never seem to get through to Rob to even hit him. It's really frustrating. Help?

 

[Roxas215]

What are yall thoughts on

Squirtle and Rob?? I swear i cant get in on either of these characters.

O yea @ Vixen I saw your post on reddit. You really think zss has a better time with fox then falco?? Can u explain the mu to me and what i should be doing?? I think all spacies beat zss but i think she has a way better mu against falco then fox.

 

[Foo]

I think people really underplay how ****ing good ZSS's grab game is. Vs the entire cast her throws either:

A: Chain grab
B: Have a guaranteed follow-up
C: Force a tech chase.

Vs a large portion of the cast, her grab release near the edge is a super solid 50/50.

In doubles, her Forward Throw has a massive hitbox on her blaster with the electricity property. It's SUPER good at disrupting pressure, and grabs are insanely easy to get in doubles.

Uthrow is also a super solid tool vs most of the cast. Floaties get hit by uthrow uair/nair, fast fallers get forced in to an easy tech chase at low percents, and chaingrabbed around 50. Sets up for platform tech chases which at this point should be considered guaranteed with how much time you have to react and how much space uair covers.

Bthrow is her weakest throw, but it has its situational uses.

*Edit*

As for the down throw on peach thing, you don't need to be a god. Just a melee player. We deal with SDI and slight DI changes 10000000000x more than PM players since Melee is far more optimized at a high level.

Meant to reply to this a while ago but kept forgetting.

For dthrow, you do get those, but you get either C or A, B and C at the same time. You say you can react to it, but humans just simply can't, especially not to something so subtle. Also, you only get A, B, and C for a limited % against most of the cast.

As for upthrow, no. Where did you test that, against standing AI in training? Upthrow never chaingrabs anyone with good DI and you don't get guaranteed follow ups ever. As for platforms setups, that's good (wouldn't call it guaranteed since you can react to rolls, but not regular getup), but isn't terribly reliable. As for fthrow, idk about doubles, but I know in singles the one case where that would matter, against ICs, fthrow doesn't hit the other IC because the hitbox goes over their head.

 

[Vixen]

Meant to reply to this a while ago but kept forgetting.

For dthrow, you do get those, but you get either C or A, B and C at the same time. You say you can react to it, but humans just simply can't, especially not to something so subtle. Also, you only get A, B, and C for a limited % against most of the cast.

As for upthrow, no. Where did you test that, against standing AI in training? Upthrow never chaingrabs anyone with good DI and you don't get guaranteed follow ups ever. As for platforms setups, that's good (wouldn't call it guaranteed since you can react to rolls, but not regular getup), but isn't terribly reliable. As for fthrow, idk about doubles, but I know in singles the one case where that would matter, against ICs, fthrow doesn't hit the other IC because the hitbox goes over their head.

Uthrow CGs Falcon, Fox, Falco, Wolf around 50% VS REAL PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO DI. At low % you can uthrow regrab characters like ZSS, Shiek, Lucario 1~3 times depending on stage position, percentage, AGAIN, VS PEOPLE. Want video proof? I have a metric ****ton of recorded footage vs a lot of players.

As for dthrow, you actually can react reliably to the tech roll of most of the cast. Especially characters like Sonic and Captain Falcon who fall exactly initial dash distance away from ZSS with IDEAL DI.

Git gud.

What are yall thoughts on

Squirtle and Rob?? I swear i cant get in on either of these characters.

O yea @ Vixen I saw your post on reddit. You really think zss has a better time with fox then falco?? Can u explain the mu to me and what i should be doing?? I think all spacies beat zss but i think she has a way better mu against falco then fox.

Falco has lasers, and a stronger combo game, that's really all it comes down to. Vs Fox you can play a solid spacing game without worry of him shutting you down at close range. ZSS struggles vs characters who attack more quickly in close range. Falco can get in on you easier than Fox and shut your options down. It's also SUPER easy to get out of uthrow uthrow in PM.

I have to say this about the Marth match-up: I have no issue playing against Marth. I actually have a little bit more trouble with Roy than Marth, to be honest.

Also, I have a question regarding the Rob match-up. How can I get in? I can never seem to get through to Rob to even hit him. It's really frustrating. Help?

Wavedash to catch his top. As for his lasers and his aerials, I recommend waveshielding. Run > Shield > WD OOS after he shoots/throws a servo > Repeat.

Quick moves like jab/dtilt/ftilt help when you finally get in on him.

Also you can disrupt some of his movement by shooting your own gun, but be careful when Rob is grounded because he can reflect it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Git gud.

No, git frame data. Then tell your opponents to git gud.

Uthrow is never a true chainthrow on Fox. Until ~100 he hits the ground before you can regrab with hard away DI, and around/above that point he has a window to jump out even if you start your dash frame perfect. At 100 it's 2 frames; if your opponent has tap jump on and makes use of tap jump buffering, that becomes a 5 frame window.

Somebody else can check Falco/Wolf/Falcon if so inclined.

 

[Vixen]

No, git frame data. Then tell your opponents to git gud.

Uthrow is never a true chainthrow on Fox. Until ~100 he hits the ground before you can regrab with hard away DI, and around/above that point he has a window to jump out even if you start your dash frame perfect. At 100 it's 2 frames; if your opponent has tap jump on and makes use of tap jump buffering, that becomes a 5 frame window.

Somebody else can check Falco/Wolf/Falcon if so inclined.

So it's a pseudo-CG, which is perfectly fine. Marths F-throw on spacies and Marth is a pseudo-cg. With ideal DI I still maintain a favorable position vs fast fallers, and my reaction gets better all the time. I think you guys really underplay how powerful her grab game is, and I'll stand by that until the bitter end.

Play some Melee. ZSS's grab game is most definitely a weird hybrid of Shiek/Falcon in how it operates. Maybe then everyone will understand.

 

[InfinityCollision]

How does providing accurate frame data suddenly translate into underplaying her grab game? You said it's a chaingrab, it's not even a pseudo-chaingrab until kill percents. Before then it's positional advantage/techchase. Simple as that.

 

[Foo]

Alright guys, wtf you are supposed to call me out when I'm being ********. I forgot to put mewtwo, ness and olimar into the matchup spread. I'm not sure exactly where to place these character, but I'd imagine zss is +2 against olimar becuase lol olimar. I think she does pretty well against mewtwo and has a slight edge on ness.

Also, vixen, upthrow doesn't chaingrab at all. You may be able to get a regrab at like 80% or something with upthrow on spacies, idk, I didn't test there, but it's not really reliable or relevant for the most part since you'd have to chase him across stage to get it. Idk about wolf, but you can't cg any of the other characters. I've gotten follow ups off upair all the time including regrab, especially when playing someone who hasn't played me before, but that doesn't change that correct DI prevents it.

Also, I didn't say you couldn't react to tech chase on some characters like falcon, I said you either got a tech chase, or you had to guess between A B or C because you can't react to extremely subtle DI mixups within like 6 frames. No, not even if you are an all powered superior "melee player" such as yourself.


Anyway, moved falcon up in the matchups. I had no idea that nair just straight up beat out bair most of the time and that zss dies to upthrow knee at 60 every stock. I also really underestimated falcons ability to not get gimped in the matchup. It's actually pretty hard to divekick a good falcon.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'd actually put Mewtwo at -1, maybe even -2. Kills early off the top, has a relatively strong shot at gimping ZSS, heavy floaty gives him some combo resistance despite the tall hurtbox and pseudo-disjointed tail, good mobility, safe options. He's surprisingly good at walling ZSS out.

On the other hand, not sure Falcon really belongs at -4. I could maybe see -3, but -4 feels excessive.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I personally put Mewtwo at a solid ZSS advantage. +2

He's a huge guy, which makes him incredible combo food for ZSS. The fact that ZSS's nair is unclankable means that you're going to be able to get around Mewtwo's spacing game. Also the fact that your dair beats CC and confirms into incredibly free dair chains (Due to size and floatiness). Additionally, because of his floatiness, ZSS can actually get pretty good mileage off of uair kills off the top on low-ceiling stages like PS2. ZSS is so fast that you can just bait utilt/dtilt and punish the whiff. On the other hand, Mewtwo has a tough time pinning ZSS down and has to rely on bair in order to get in on her safely. Sure, he can teleport, but it's incredibly telegraphed and once you get the spacing down, you can honestly just stick out a hitbox before Mewtwo has a chance to put anything out.

Mewtwo can indeed edge guard ZSS better than most characters, so that's a bummer. But you can always play chicken and dip super duper low and recover after he whiffs a bair or something. His grabs shouldn't be a huge issue since you can outspace them safely with bair. Once Mewtwo gets you in a combo, you gotta be able to DI real good because it's very unintuitive to use combo DI when you're touching the top corner blastzone and will get you killed by a fair if you're not keen on it.

Kaos is my only experience as far as high level Mewtwos are concerned and he definitely has a particular style, but I'm super confident that ZSS wins the matchup. I mean, he's big enough to where he can't even SDI ZSS's fair. How could we not win that?

 

[~Frozen~]

Random salt tidbit: ZSS is skinny enough that she can stand IN BETWEEN the hitboxes of Mewtwo's Fsmash. Still doesn't occur a whole lot, but it's both hilarious and frustrating when it does.

The only ZSS I've played in 3.5 is Jaden's secondary ZSS....so I don't really have a solid grasp on the matchup specifics...but what JFalls said looks pretty legit to me, especially the part about pinning ZSS down. Once you do manage to that though, I find getting a ton of percent/a stock to not be too hard; Mewtwo has an incredible cornering/offstage presence. The thing about being too big to SDI fair is pretty relevant too, as it gives her +1 kill move to end Mewtwo's stock that she desperately needs, since Mewtwo's recovery is so good that he won't be getting edgeguarded much outside of hard reads. I'm not sure it's +2 in ZSS's favor though, felt kinda evenish...though I don't play the MU too much, and Jaden has a lot of experience playing against me.

 

[Vixen]

I personally put Mewtwo at a solid ZSS advantage. +2

He's a huge guy, which makes him incredible combo food for ZSS. The fact that ZSS's nair is unclankable means that you're going to be able to get around Mewtwo's spacing game. Also the fact that your dair beats CC and confirms into incredibly free dair chains (Due to size and floatiness). Additionally, because of his floatiness, ZSS can actually get pretty good mileage off of uair kills off the top on low-ceiling stages like PS2. ZSS is so fast that you can just bait utilt/dtilt and punish the whiff. On the other hand, Mewtwo has a tough time pinning ZSS down and has to rely on bair in order to get in on her safely. Sure, he can teleport, but it's incredibly telegraphed and once you get the spacing down, you can honestly just stick out a hitbox before Mewtwo has a chance to put anything out.

Mewtwo can indeed edge guard ZSS better than most characters, so that's a bummer. But you can always play chicken and dip super duper low and recover after he whiffs a bair or something. His grabs shouldn't be a huge issue since you can outspace them safely with bair. Once Mewtwo gets you in a combo, you gotta be able to DI real good because it's very unintuitive to use combo DI when you're touching the top corner blastzone and will get you killed by a fair if you're not keen on it.

Kaos is my only experience as far as high level Mewtwos are concerned and he definitely has a particular style, but I'm super confident that ZSS wins the matchup. I mean, he's big enough to where he can't even SDI ZSS's fair. How could we not win that?

I have some problems beating our resident M2 player Casino Wolf, but I think the match up is doable. Is there anything in particular I should be looking out for?

Also I got to play quite a bit with Sneez at SS. I definitely think Rob is a winnable match up for ZSS. Just takes a really long time regardless of which stage you play on.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

I have some problems beating our resident M2 player Casino Wolf, but I think the match up is doable. Is there anything in particular I should be looking out for?

Also I got to play quite a bit with Sneez at SS. I definitely think Rob is a winnable match up for ZSS. Just takes a really long time regardless of which stage you play on.

Make sure you're DIing combos correctly. Mewtwo has two types of combos: vertical juggles and wall of pain edge guards. His punish game is massive if you're doing incorrect DI. He has good combo starters in cc dtilt, utilt, and nair on shield, so you gotta be on your toes in neutral. His nair is aight, but once you start SDIing it, he can't get too much mileage off of it. Also, you gotta respect the nair when it connects on shield. Often times I'm a dummy and try to punish with an OoS option before all of the hits connect. If he's hovering, expect him to nair and then reposition himself out of your punish range and then fair. It's sort of a safe Mewtwo thing that's easier to deal with in 3.5, but is still dangerous if Mewtwo gets in. Your punish game on Mewtwo should be massive. ZSS nair is godly in the matchup and he essentially melts once you get the first hit. Get good at reading teleport angles. What's funny is that you can space a Mewtwo on ledge such that your fsmash hit covers the get up option and the backswing covers the teleport into stage. It's bad, but I do it sometimes because it's funny. But you can get dsmashes and bairs super easy if you get a good sense of what the Mewtwo wants to do. Dair is insanely good in the matchup as Mewtwo doesn't have the OoS options to punish dair, really. And if you get one, you automatically get 3 because of how big he is.

What makes the matchup so easy is the combo game, imo. Mewtwo is tough for a lot of characters to kill, but because ZSS has access to down-b, she can extend her combos to those death %s that a lot of other characters can't (Uair accounts for about 40% of my kills in this matchup because you can chase Mewtwo off the top of the screen). Mewtwo's neutral is strange, but there are ways to get around his different options. He can edge guard you well, but just get familiar with the range of his bair and you should be able to weave around it real easy. Blaster's a fun option, as it baits the side-b and you can just jump over it or power shield it back to get an easy stun. And b-reverse side-b is good for freaking out a Mewtwo that refuses to budge, as it covers an outrageous amount of space in such a short amount of time and they'll get really confused the first couple times.

I personally have never had issues with Mewtwo, having only dropped 1 set to Kaos in the 10+ sets I've played against him historically (And no sets to other Mewtwos, but that's less relevant) . My ZSS if far less grounded and more platform movement heavy, though, which I think is a possible reason for it. Mewtwo has good CC and disjoints, but that matters less if ZSS is coming in at diagonal slices with well spaced bairs.

 

[Vixen]

Sweet. good info. I haven't dropped a set but with as new as casino wolf is dropping games or copping out to Falco feels kinda bad. Games are closer than I would like them to be kinda thing.

I feel like I jump a little too often in certain match ups. Would I be able to get you to take a look at a few of my vs wolf matches? The match is feeling slowly more winnable but ugh.

 

[InfinityCollision]

His nair is aight, but once you start SDIing it, he can't get too much mileage off of it.

If he's got momentum and can HC early then no. HCing nair prevents the strong hitbox from coming out, allowing him to easily follow up with frame advantage. If higher in the air/away from playforms then yes, but you're still above Mewtwo. Not the worst situation for him.

What's funny is that you can space a Mewtwo on ledge such that your fsmash hit covers the get up option and the backswing covers the teleport into stage.

Ledgedash dtilt is invincible until the hitbox comes out, and don't neglect the option of simply teleporting into the air above the stage - especially on BF, YS, WW, etc. where he can autocancel it onto a platform.

Dair is insanely good in the matchup as Mewtwo doesn't have the OoS options to punish dair, really. And if you get one, you automatically get 3 because of how big he is.

Dair is certainly good in this matchup, but you shouldn't be getting three at any percent.

ZSS is so fast that you can just bait utilt/dtilt and punish the whiff.

Utilt, yes, but utilt isn't a central component of his neutral anymore. It's more of an antiair that converts into a combo tool at mid percents. Uair on the other hand, not punishable out of hover. Dtilt... technically yes? Not on reaction, but you can. Not so different from punishing a badly spaced dtilt from Marth, actually.

Sure, he can teleport, but it's incredibly telegraphed and once you get the spacing down, you can honestly just stick out a hitbox before Mewtwo has a chance to put anything out.

This is kind of like saying that QD is telegraphed and punishable, except Teleport is fixed distance and actionable on frame 23 (aerial) or 24 (autocancel). Teleport extends combos, cuts off space, and punishes unsafe actions at midrange, it's not really something you should use in any punishable situations... Though I'll also say that you oversimplify Teleport as a movement option.

Mewtwo can indeed edge guard ZSS better than most characters, so that's a bummer. But you can always play chicken and dip super duper low and recover after he whiffs a bair or something.

At which point he teleports back to ledge, hope you've got a wall to mix up on and he doesn't decide to dropzone dair/bair.

After thinking about it I wouldn't put it at -2, but I definitely still wouldn't put it at any worse than even from Mewtwo's perspective either. The matchup against Kaos might favor your ZSS, and it's worth noting that your play is very well suited to this matchup, but remember that his play is still very unoptimized. Mewtwo's got a ways to go yet.

he's big enough to where he can't even SDI ZSS's fair

The thing about being too big to SDI fair is pretty relevant too

This is not necessarily correct. SDI down often beats rising fair for instance. Down & in might beat it clean if you don't fade back, don't remember off hand. A second, inward pulse from dual stick or QCSDI will usually get Mewtwo out (if he SDIs in the right direction/the ZSS misspaces) or sometimes force a reverse hit (can occur with wrong direction and precise spacing, particularly on fade back). And of course ASDI down + shield beats first hit fair even at kill percents when he's on the ground.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

But that slick, slick combo game, man. Punishes on Mewtwo are so easy and conversions into combos from neutral are also very easy. Even if I did concede all of the little things that you point out (Which I don't), ZSS has a winning matchup because she only needs 1-3 conversions in order to get Mewtwo to death and, if she misses that kill confirm, then she can safely space bair at high % until he dies. Mewtwo has a lesser punish game, but even if he could convert ZSS to death at the same rate she can, ZSS still has all of the tools to weave around Mewtwo safely in neutral. Whereas Mewtwo kinda has to stay planted and wait for an opening.

imo, it's +2, approaching even as Mewtwo's edge guarding game gets optimized, probably.

 

[Vixen]

QD actually is highly telegraphed and punishable. Who says it isn't?

 

[InfinityCollision]

QD actually is highly telegraphed and punishable.

I... agree? The point isn't that QD's frame data disallows punishment, it's that good Ike players don't use QD in situations that allow it to be punished.

 

[DiamondDust]

Is Ganon really +2? Or has this just not been updated for 3.6? Because that matchup is a real pain in the ass for me. His cape reflector basically kills her Paralyzer and I have a really hard time keeping him away from me. It takes forever to kill him, but only a few hits for him to kill me. I'm likely just not playing the match up right, but it for sure doesn't feel +2 to me

 

[G13_Flux]

Is Ganon really +2? Or has this just not been updated for 3.6? Because that matchup is a real pain in the *** for me. His cape reflector basically kills her Paralyzer and I have a really hard time keeping him away from me. It takes forever to kill him, but only a few hits for him to kill me. I'm likely just not playing the match up right, but it for sure doesn't feel +2 to me

I would work on your neutral game. If youre getting punished often, yeah its not gonna take long for ganon to kill you, but you shouldnt be gettin punished that often. ganon is a very immobile character, and since you are one of the most mobile in the cast, you should be garnering a lot more punishes than him. your combos on him should be very potent too, as he doesnt break out of combos very well, and is a good weight/fall speed/size for ZSSs combos.